Osha as Rickon's mother figure?

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm enjoying the discussions about characters we don't normally discuss.   Not Rickon so much as Osha in this case.   I've known a lot of kids in my time.   I was even a little kid once and I recall a thing or 2 from when I was 3 or 4.   Mostly I recall how I felt toward certain people.   I had family that I rarely saw, 2 grand mothers.    I was very fond of 1 and couldn't understand why I wasn't so fond of the other.   They were grammas, for crying out loud.   They are supposed to think the sun rises and sets on their 3 or 4 year olds.   With this in mind I would expect that Rickon's sense of Starkness would be well established.  I believe we've had nearly 3 years pass over the course of our story that would make Rickon a 6 or 7 year-old.   That's still a little boy.  But it is a little boy who has had some amount of training and education.   Presumably Shaggy has had a little training as well.   Because Rickon and Shaggy are so close in nature I wonder how much of themselves they've lost in each other.   If there is 1 thing about small children that seems to be universal, they will do the thing they enjoy most as often as possible.   I'm thankful GRRM gave a better parent to Rickon than his own Mom.   Assuming Osha stayed with Rickon and Shaggy she would have taught him her ways and philosophy.   Jon will understand him.   Double bonus Sansa will be horrified!   Still, with the wolf time and Wildling lifestyle, could Rickon turn out to be any more fierce than Arya?   I expect he will be the one to turn out most like the Kings of Winter of old.   Real Stark.

Hear, hear!

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

The wolves will indeed come again. . . but I don't think they will end up quite the way they are now. I personally see Arya as a traumatized girl, and I think there will come a day in the not-so-distant future when she realizes that killing can't truly fill the hole she has inside of her. I like the theory that this will happen when she finally comes face-to-face with Lady Stoneheart and realizes how revenge has destroyed the woman who was once her mother. 

I've seen a lot of theories about Bran going darker, but I rarely see anyone mention how his propensity for compassion and forgiveness has continued to grow. When Theon breaks down in front of the weirwood tree, Bran reaches out to him, trying to comfort him. When the Children tell the story about how they were destroyed by the First Men, Bran thinks about how most people would swear revenge, but finds himself unable to, feeling more sadness than anger. I'm curious to see if GRRM is setting us up to come full circle with a confrontation between Bran and Jaime. At the beginning of the series, most characters--and readers--would have sworn revenge on the man who crippled a little boy. But if Bran can find it in him to forgive Jaime instead, well, that would make for a truly incredible twist. 

[Nevets]

21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

For instance, we're told that girls are considered women once they've had their first period in this universe, which is established early on in the books. With that in mind, Sansa doesn't "become a woman" until the last quarter of ACOK, yet grown men lust after her all through the first two books as if she were already a woman grown.

Like who?  The only one I can think of is Littlefinger, and I think he sees her as a Catelyn substitute.  I don't think Sandor is physically attracted; he just sees someone (a bit like himself as a child) who needs to see reality before it kills her.  Everybody else pretty much ignored her in ACOK, and I don't recall any untoward interest in her in AGOT either.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Like who?  The only one I can think of is Littlefinger, and I think he sees her as a Catelyn substitute.  I don't think Sandor is physically attracted; he just sees someone (a bit like himself as a child) who needs to see reality before it kills her.  Everybody else pretty much ignored her in ACOK, and I don't recall any untoward interest in her in AGOT either.

Dontos often tried to kiss and touch her (she described it as having to dodge his "groping lips"). Other than that, I meant more about how she was described, which is more consistent with that of a grown woman than a young girl. Tyrion's always going on about how attractive she is, and when Jaime hears of their marriage, he thinks something along the lines of "that ought to put a smile on Tyrion's face," even though she was only eleven the last time he saw her. There's also that scene where the Hound finds her coming back from the godswood and comments on her shapely breasts. As for Littlefinger, when the Council is discussing the possible betrothal between Joffrey and Margaery, Petyr mentions that all Sansa brings into a marriage as of now is her body, "sweet as that may be." 

Like I said before, I don't think GRRM does this intentionally, and it doesn't seem to bother most readers. But for me it's definitely a weak point in the writing. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Osha will make an excellent mother figure to Rickon. Osha is a first man blood, old god honoring, free folk woman who is skilled with a spear (all the Stark boys left have their own spearwives ) and Osha believes in wargs and skinchangers, something that measter Luwin did not even claim existed. I love Luwin, but he would have been awful for the Stark kids and their budding telepathic animal link skills. At least Osha won't deny those powers exist and she can even find some help for RIckon to try and learn some warg control.

Also, I know lots of people think that Rickon is a "shaggydog" story, but I am (probably the sole cadet) that supports TEAM RICKON!

I posted this before in another thread, but I will add it here too since it is on topic. Instead of Rickon being a "shaggydog" story, I want him to be a Snarlyyow instead:

Snarlyyow, the dog fiend: Set in 1699 and framed around the Jacobite (supporters of the overthrown king, James II) conspiracies of the time, Lieutenant Cornelius Vanslyperken is the greedy and treacherous commander of a small vessel that hunts for smugglers in the English Channel. Snarleyyow is his "indestructible" dog.

 Or this description of the book:

This book is filled with adventure, treachery, and a good mix of humor. Snarlyyow, the dog, a cur, is the focal point the story revolves around. He belongs to the captain of the Yang Frau, a British cutter that regular sails between Portsmith and Amsterdam. Of course, the captain loves Snarlyyow, but the dog is disfavored by the crew. The crew schemes to get rid of Snarlyyow, but every attempt to do so ends in failure. Of course, the Captain is greatly angered at the crew for this and he plots revenge on the crew members.

Will it happen?

[Traverys]

On 6/18/2017 at 5:49 AM, Springwatch said:

Why do mothers get such a hard time? Nowadays, we have a pretty fixed idea of what makes a good mother, a couple of generations ago it was something different and so on and so on.  And it's so easy to fail to meet other people's expectations.

Cat was raising her children to survive and thrive in the Game of Thrones. That's what the period demanded, but there was time for love as well - they all loved her and she loved them.

Osha can't replace that.  When we met Osha first, she was joining in a wildling attack on a crippled child, Bran. That attack nearly ended up with him dead. Osha changed her coat when serving the Starks looked better than being a wildling on the run. She strikes me as a pragmatist above all. I expect she thinks Rickon would make a great wildling, and therefore is willing to help him, but as a pragmatist, she might also sell him for advantage if she wants to change her coat again.

Also, I seem to remember that she smacks him with the butt of her spear to make him obey - which is not only bad parenting style, but also extremely stupid with Shaggydog in the vicinity.

They really do get a hard time! It's funny how a father gives a kid a pat on the head every now and then and everyone is satisfied with their parenting. Note how little Eddard Stark attempted to father Sansa in comparison to Arya (which is also very little). You can argue that in their culture and society it's more important for them to focus on the boys, but then you have to be fair and to mothering and the culture. Parenting looked much different in medieval England compared to now. Lysa Arryn, for example, is a hyperbole of what a bad medieval mother could be. It's a harsh, even crapsack world out there and you don't do your children any favors by trying to shield them from it. This is why Eddard insists on taking Bran to the beheading in the first chapter.

I've mentioned this before in another thread about how I was kinda shocked when I found how divisive of a character Catelyn Stark turns out to be in the fanbase. Not even going into some of the mistakes she made and their ultimate consequences... I personally find Catelyn to be the best mother she could be considering the circumstances, and one of the few politically astute women in the series. I find her story arcs to be comparable to Greek tragedies, where even the best decisions or intentions always lead down the path of destruction. Every thing that could possibly go wrong for Catelyn does; the woman never caught a break. Again, this was my interpretation of the character since I first read the series. People have managed to make me (begrudgingly) admit that maybe Renly wasn't so nice of a person or that great of a king, but I'll always stand firm about the many positive aspects of Catelyn Stark.

But back to her parenting... Not a chapter goes by where she isn't worrying about her children. She intended to return to Winterfell before Robb commanded her to serve as envoy to Renly. Then there is just really not opportunity to return before Theon turns his cloak and seizes Winterfell. You can say since "Family" comes first in Family, Duty, Honor so she should be with her children... "family." But sometimes you best serve your family by being elsewhere... And her children are not the only family she has to worry about. Her brother has a great heart but he turns out to leave much to be desired as a battle commander (not that this is unique to Edmure). And all she cares to accomplish in the War of Five Kings is the custody and safety of her children. Of course, being a tragic figure, all of that goes to shit for her (at least by her perception; only one child is truly dead). 

 

BUT, back to Osha and Rickon general topic... I think Osha is likely a better parent to Rickon than Catelyn ever could be. Rickon is young and he's influenced by his warg bond at a much more impressionable age than any of the other Starks. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it's possible that their warg bond is more of a two-way street with Rickon and Shaggydog than it is for the other. It brings new meaning to the saying about certain Starks having "the wolf" in them.

Anwyays, back to Osha (a personal fav character of mine)... I believe there's a spot right before she and Rickon leave to go out on their own where she even disciplines him (a swat) when he acts out. Not that I'm a modern advocate of corporal punishment, but really in this time period it's the best thing for him. If someone doesn't put his (and Shaggydog's) wroth into check early it'll be a lifelong character trait (assuming you put eggs into the behaviorist school of thought). Who better to do this than a tough-as-nails, Wildling spearwife? She'll likely also have some experience with wargs and at least be able to give him some common wisdom about not letting the animal control him.

 

On 6/18/2017 at 10:57 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Definitely. As I mentioned earlier, Sansa and Arya are written as if they're much older than twelve and ten, and I would have been a lot more comfortable if he had made them older. I understand George's dilemma with how the sequence of events needs to feel natural--for instance, it wouldn't make sense for Stannis to wait too long to attack King's Landing, or for Robb to stay at Riverrun like a sitting duck--but with the amount of traveling that goes on in this series, along with how long it takes for information to be spread, even with the assistance of ravens, I don't think it makes much sense for the timeline to be as condensed as it was either. For instance, Cat rides from Winterfell to King's Landing, then to the Inn at the Crossroads, then to the Eyrie, and then back to the Riverlands in the span of one book. Then in ACOK she rides from Riverrun to Bitterbridge, then to Storm's End, and then back to Riverrun in the span of half a book. During this time, Robb, Renly, Stannis, and Tywin are all marching their armies around Westeros, which would undoubtedly take even longer given their size. I'm not saying that the traveling itself should be allotted more page space, but rather that seeing as how everything that happens during these travels effects the plot, it doesn't really make sense to me for everything to happen over the span of a few months, when realistically it would take much longer. I think AGOT and ACOK could have each believably covered a few years,and then maybe the younger characters' ages would make more sense. If I had to guess, I'd say George probably envisioned most of the children as older as well, but kept their ages the same because of the condensed timeline.

Yeah, I think you've probably nailed it on the head! I've enjoyed reading your posts in this topic, so thank you!

[The Bard of Banefort]

50 minutes ago, Traverys said:

They really do get a hard time! It's funny how a father gives a kid a pat on the head every now and then and everyone is satisfied with their parenting. Note how little Eddard Stark attempted to father Sansa in comparison to Arya (which is also very little). You can argue that in their culture and society it's more important for them to focus on the boys, but then you have to be fair and to mothering and the culture. Parenting looked much different in medieval England compared to now. Lysa Arryn, for example, is a hyperbole of what a bad medieval mother could be. It's a harsh, even crapsack world out there and you don't do your children any favors by trying to shield them from it. This is why Eddard insists on taking Bran to the beheading in the first chapter.

I've mentioned this before in another thread about how I was kinda shocked when I found how divisive of a character Catelyn Stark turns out to be in the fanbase. Not even going into some of the mistakes she made and their ultimate consequences... I personally find Catelyn to be the best mother she could be considering the circumstances, and one of the few politically astute women in the series. I find her story arcs to be comparable to Greek tragedies, where even the best decisions or intentions always lead down the path of destruction. Every thing that could possibly go wrong for Catelyn does; the woman never caught a break. Again, this was my interpretation of the character since I first read the series. People have managed to make me (begrudgingly) admit that maybe Renly wasn't so nice of a person or that great of a king, but I'll always stand firm about the many positive aspects of Catelyn Stark.

But back to her parenting... Not a chapter goes by where she isn't worrying about her children. She intended to return to Winterfell before Robb commanded her to serve as envoy to Renly. Then there is just really not opportunity to return before Theon turns his cloak and seizes Winterfell. You can say since "Family" comes first in Family, Duty, Honor so she should be with her children... "family." But sometimes you best serve your family by being elsewhere... And her children are not the only family she has to worry about. Her brother has a great heart but he turns out to leave much to be desired as a battle commander (not that this is unique to Edmure). And all she cares to accomplish in the War of Five Kings is the custody and safety of her children. Of course, being a tragic figure, all of that goes to shit for her (at least by her perception; only one child is truly dead). 

 

BUT, back to Osha and Rickon general topic... I think Osha is likely a better parent to Rickon than Catelyn ever could be. Rickon is young and he's influenced by his warg bond at a much more impressionable age than any of the other Starks. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it's possible that their warg bond is more of a two-way street with Rickon and Shaggydog than it is for the other. It brings new meaning to the saying about certain Starks having "the wolf" in them.

Anwyays, back to Osha (a personal fav character of mine)... I believe there's a spot right before she and Rickon leave to go out on their own where she even disciplines him (a swat) when he acts out. Not that I'm a modern advocate of corporal punishment, but really in this time period it's the best thing for him. If someone doesn't put his (and Shaggydog's) wroth into check early it'll be a lifelong character trait (assuming you put eggs into the behaviorist school of thought). Who better to do this than a tough-as-nails, Wildling spearwife? She'll likely also have some experience with wargs and at least be able to give him some common wisdom about not letting the animal control him.

 

Yeah, I think you've probably nailed it on the head! I've enjoyed reading your posts in this topic, so thank you!

Thanks! I've enjoyed reading your posts as well.

I am very torn on Cat, personally. I found her much more likable in ACOK than I did in AGOT. Truth be told, Ned and Cat both come off as incredibly judgmental to me in the first book, which I was surprised by when I re-read AGOT for the first time a few weeks ago. What's interesting about Cat is, even though her story does indeed develop into something of a Greek tragedy, up until Bran's fall, she's portrayed as having essentially the perfect life. Her mother died, but she's mentioned so sparingly that we're led to believe this didn't even have much effect on Cat, and Brandon died, but she still ended up having a loving marriage to Ned. In some respects, I think this is one of the reasons why readers were rubbed the wrong way by Cat. She's had such a successful life up until this point that her anger towards Jon is reminiscent of that of an uptown socialite. It's the one thing in her life that wasn't perfect at this point, and it's hard for everyday people to feel much sympathy over something like that.

The biggest problem with discussing Cat is that it's never really so much a discussion as it is a shouting match between Cat haters and Cat fans. In my opinion, both sides make good points: Cat was an incredible woman, but dehumanizing a child to the point where she never even calls him by his name is emotional abuse, regardless of whether George intended it or not. (I'm sensing a pattern here). This kind of lends to that image of the petty socialite, wanting something to disappear so badly that you just pretend it isn't there. Her glee at sending Jon to the Wall reminded me of that scene in To Kill a Mockingbird when Atticus makes the argument that his client is being charged because the accuser wants him out of sight, like a child trying to throw away something they don't like so that they don't have to look at it anymore.

But at the same time, Cat is also a pretty terrific woman. She's clever, pragmatic, dedicated, and devoted. She loves her family and always puts them before herself. She put up with Ned's secrets and his refusal to give her answers. She tries to broker peace between Stannis and Renly, and takes Brienne under her wing when she has nowhere else to go. She's politically astute, and unlike a lot of other readers, I do think Robb consistently took her advice into account when making decisions. The problem was that Robb had to please more people than just his mother, and even then he frequently sought her council and approval. I'm finding myself feeling incredibly sorry for Robb as I re-read the books, much more so than the first time through, and I think a lot of readers place too much blame on him. He was a teenage boy being torn in ten different directions. He did everything he could, and make remarkably few mistakes. The mistakes he did make, unfortunately, ended up costing him his life. 

Now, I'm the weirdo who thinks that the Ironborn are a self-fulfilling prophecy that turn to the Old Way because they keep being alienated by the rest of Westeros and the Iron Throne, but I think that the reason that bastards cause problems can be largely chalked up to the poor treatment they receive. Somewhere in the SSM archives, GRRM said that Daemon's rebellion was largely motivated by being treated like a second-class citizen, and people in Westeros tend to forget that the rebellion ended because another bastard was able to turn the tide in Daeron's favor. Much like how Arthur Dayne won over the smallfolk by treating them well, and how Jon did the same with the wildlings, I think the safest way to prevent a bastard from usurping their family's seat is by treating them like actual family--inspiring loyalty and affection instead of distance and resentment. 

To quickly go back to Osha, I'm excited to see Skagos, as well as curious as to why she took Rickon there in the first place. Bran doesn't have any visions of Shaggydog when he's there, so I'm guessing that there's plenty of mysteries to be uncovered.  

[Prof. Cecily]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Spoiler

 

Thanks! I've enjoyed reading your posts as well.

I am very torn on Cat, personally. I found her much more likable in ACOK than I did in AGOT. Truth be told, Ned and Cat both come off as incredibly judgmental to me in the first book, which I was surprised by when I re-read AGOT for the first time a few weeks ago. What's interesting about Cat is, even though her story does indeed develop into something of a Greek tragedy, up until Bran's fall, she's portrayed as having essentially the perfect life. Her mother died, but she's mentioned so sparingly that we're led to believe this didn't even have much effect on Cat, and Brandon died, but she still ended up having a loving marriage to Ned. In some respects, I think this is one of the reasons why readers were rubbed the wrong way by Cat. She's had such a successful life up until this point that her anger towards Jon is reminiscent of that of an uptown socialite. It's the one thing in her life that wasn't perfect at this point, and it's hard for everyday people to feel much sympathy over something like that.

The biggest problem with discussing Cat is that it's never really so much a discussion as it is a shouting match between Cat haters and Cat fans. In my opinion, both sides make good points: Cat was an incredible woman, but dehumanizing a child to the point where she never even calls him by his name is emotional abuse, regardless of whether George intended it or not. (I'm sensing a pattern here). This kind of lends to that image of the petty socialite, wanting something to disappear so badly that you just pretend it isn't there. Her glee at sending Jon to the Wall reminded me of that scene in To Kill a Mockingbird when Atticus makes the argument that his client is being charged because the accuser wants him out of sight, like a child trying to throw away something they don't like so that they don't have to look at it anymore.

But at the same time, Cat is also a pretty terrific woman. She's clever, pragmatic, dedicated, and devoted. She loves her family and always puts them before herself. She put up with Ned's secrets and his refusal to give her answers. She tries to broker peace between Stannis and Renly, and takes Brienne under her wing when she has nowhere else to go. She's politically astute, and unlike a lot of other readers, I do think Robb consistently took her advice into account when making decisions. The problem was that Robb had to please more people than just his mother, and even then he frequently sought her council and approval. I'm finding myself feeling incredibly sorry for Robb as I re-read the books, much more so than the first time through, and I think a lot of readers place too much blame on him. He was a teenage boy being torn in ten different directions. He did everything he could, and make remarkably few mistakes. The mistakes he did make, unfortunately, ended up costing him his life. 

Now, I'm the weirdo who thinks that the Ironborn are a self-fulfilling prophecy that turn to the Old Way because they keep being alienated by the rest of Westeros and the Iron Throne, but I think that the reason that bastards cause problems can be largely chalked up to the poor treatment they receive. Somewhere in the SSM archives, GRRM said that Daemon's rebellion was largely motivated by being treated like a second-class citizen, and people in Westeros tend to forget that the rebellion ended because another bastard was able to turn the tide in Daeron's favor. Much like how Arthur Dayne won over the smallfolk by treating them well, and how Jon did the same with the wildlings, I think the safest way to prevent a bastard from usurping their family's seat is by treating them like actual family--inspiring loyalty and affection instead of distance and resentment. 

 

To quickly go back to Osha, I'm excited to see Skagos, as well as curious as to why she took Rickon there in the first place. Bran doesn't have any visions of Shaggydog when he's there, so I'm guessing that there's plenty of mysteries to be uncovered.  

Me, too!

I greatly enjoyed the relation of Osha and maester Luwin and I'm looking forward to the return of Rickon and Shaggy to the story.

 

 

On 6/19/2017 at 1:39 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Spoiler

 

I posted this before in another thread, but I will add it here too since it is on topic. Instead of Rickon being a "shaggydog" story, I want him to be a Snarlyyow instead:

Snarlyyow, the dog fiend: Set in 1699 and framed around the Jacobite (supporters of the overthrown king, James II) conspiracies of the time, Lieutenant Cornelius Vanslyperken is the greedy and treacherous commander of a small vessel that hunts for smugglers in the English Channel. Snarleyyow is his "indestructible" dog.

 Or this description of the book:

This book is filled with adventure, treachery, and a good mix of humor. Snarlyyow, the dog, a cur, is the focal point the story revolves around. He belongs to the captain of the Yang Frau, a British cutter that regular sails between Portsmith and Amsterdam. Of course, the captain loves Snarlyyow, but the dog is disfavored by the crew. The crew schemes to get rid of Snarlyyow, but every attempt to do so ends in failure. Of course, the Captain is greatly angered at the crew for this and he plots revenge on the crew members.

Will it happen?

 

 

NIce catch!!!

[ftheking]

On 17.6.2017 at 8:41 PM, northern_amnesia said:

I hate Cat, she keeps repeating "family, duty, honor" but she neglected her family and her duty, and she confuses honor with pride and later, vengeance.
I hate how she's so judgemental towards her sister and the way she treats her child (Lysa is a bithc but Cat is no better), and the things she thinks about Mya Stone and Brienne...
Cat thinks she's above everyone else, and her way is the way. She's no different than Cercei.

I agree except with the last sentence. Cersei is truly something else. She abuses Tommen and actively ruins his life. Cat at least loves her children, even if she neglects some of them. Otherwise she is a strangely cold person, I can't really sympathise with her. She is uneccessarily cold and judgemental towards her brother, her sister and Littlefinger YET she still wrongly trusts Lysa and Petyr! Goddammit! What a frustrating character.

[Springwatch]

No-one ever says, "I hate Tywin! He's so judgemental and unsympathetic, and he cares more about pride than honour. And he neglects his children!"

[Springwatch]

14 hours ago, Traverys said:

...

BUT, back to Osha and Rickon general topic... I think Osha is likely a better parent to Rickon than Catelyn ever could be. Rickon is young and he's influenced by his warg bond at a much more impressionable age than any of the other Starks. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it's possible that their warg bond is more of a two-way street with Rickon and Shaggydog than it is for the other. It brings new meaning to the saying about certain Starks having "the wolf" in them.

Anwyays, back to Osha (a personal fav character of mine)... I believe there's a spot right before she , and Rickon leave to go out on their own where she even disciplines him (a swat) when he acts out. Not that I'm a modern advocate of corporal punishment, but really in this time period it's the best thing for him. If someone doesn't put his (and Shaggydog's) wroth into check early it'll be a lifelong character trait (assuming you put eggs into the behaviorist school of thought). Who better to do this than a tough-as-nails, Wildling spearwife? She'll likely also have some experience with wargs and at least be able to give him some common wisdom about not letting the animal control him.

...

I agree that Osha will be better at setting boundaries for Rickon - I remember the mess the Starks made of stopping Bran climbing the towers of Winterfell:

Quote

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh [saying] "... So be it. If you must climb, then climb, but try not to let your mother see you."

And Cat's best effort was to get Old Nan and Luwin to tell Bran scary stories about falling. (I know Bran was the perfect climber, but things can go wrong.)

I don't think Rickon would be much bothered by a smack - the Frey boy seemed to hit him really hard, and he just laughed. Rickon is super tough (supernaturally tough?). But Shaggydog attacked the Frey almost instantly - so I think Osha's going to have to work out another way of getting herself listened to. I expect the journey will be a bonding experience.

I still don't see Osha's motivation in this. The Starks inspire love, it's true, but it's also true that the Starks have been 'oppressing' the wildlings for thousands of years. Osha herself was treated with mercy, but that amounted to being put to work in the kitchens in chains. She says she gave sexual favours to the cook so her would give her time off to worship at the heart tree. It doesn't sound too great.

[The Bard of Banefort]

26 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

No-one ever says, "I hate Tywin! He's so judgemental and unsympathetic, and he cares more about pride than honour. And he neglects his children!"

If it's any consolation, these are all things I hate about Tywin. He may give the impression of being a stone-cold badass, but underneath that facade, he's a monster. He's not even an emotionally detached Machiavellian like we're originally led to believe; if anyone fits that description, it's Roose. Tywin is entirely motivated by his pride and inability to let anything go.

[Springwatch]

2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If it's any consolation, these are all things I hate about Tywin. He may give the impression of being a stone-cold badass, but underneath that facade, he's a monster. He's not even an emotionally detached Machiavellian like we're originally led to believe; if anyone fits that description, it's Roose. Tywin is entirely motivated by his pride and inability to let anything go.

I feel the same way - it's just there's no energy in the forum for hating Tywin; it almost goes without saying. And I and most others can't help liking Jaime, whose record with children is about as bad as it's possible to be.

[The Bard of Banefort]

36 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I feel the same way - it's just there's no energy in the forum for hating Tywin; it almost goes without saying. And I and most others can't help liking Jaime, whose record with children is about as bad as it's possible to be.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I love Jaime. I personally do think he feels genuine guilt for pushing Bran--just like how I think he feels guilt for what happened to Elia and Tysha, even though those weren't his fault--but he's still burying those emotions under one defense mechanism after another. I think that his confrontation with Lady Stoneheart will be when he finally hits rock bottom and has to confront his past. 

[kissdbyfire]

A bit OT but... I don't think there's a character I despise more than Tywin Lannister.

Jaime, otoh,