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On 8/19/2019 at 4:57 PM, Proudfeet said:

I just assumed he was 14 or something previously so I didn't think too much of it before. He does seem taller now as well although that might just be a side effect of being around regular sized human beings. 

Heh, or maybe because he's around regular sized children most of the time, given how young Reines and most of his students are. XD

No, he actually is taller, at least in the FGO game where I've got Waver and you can switch between his Fate/Zero skin and his El-Melloi skin the difference is pretty jarring.

Speaking of pretty jarring... in one of my fanfics I was considering a scene where El-Melloi takes down a significantly more skilled Magus using some physics shenanigans and was pretty much deciding against it because I thought it would be too much of a power fantasy for him. And now in the last episode...

Spoiler

He was charging a freaking Servant with a mad grin, nullifying Iskandar's  chariot Noble Phantasm by casting some kind of magical lighting rod. He was still run over, but this is some Meme Batman shit he was pulling there. I honestly find it difficult to believe that Waver of all people would one day sit down and wonder to himself "How would I take down Iskandar with just my feeble magic skills?" and actually come up with a plan that actually more or less works (aside from him aforementioned getting run over)!

I must admit, that really took me off-guard because this was exactly the kind of power fantasy that I thought would cheapen Waver if I actually wrote that. And... they just did it... o.O

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Okay... I guess it was problematic to do given how much I am behind in regards to what I wanted to do work-wise, but here I am, having watched the second Heaven's Feel movie yesterday. Intermediate verdict: Same as before. It's as close of an adaptation as you could wish for. Sure, there are some pacing issues resulting from the decision to have the story almost 90% being characters rambling about their motivations over still shots before suddenly hurrying to the next battle scene, but to be frank that's almost exactly how the source material reads like.

I guess it didn't feel like an utter waste of time since it didn't make me regularly angry like the latter half of UBW did. Further ramblings in the spoiler tag:

Spoiler

Things I really liked about the movie:

- No mana transfer dragon or dolphins. I always thought that if there was one route that would gain a lot from them not skirting around a sex scene, it would be Heaven's Feel. So consider my pleasant surprise when Shirou and Sakura actually have sex and that it actually was somewhat tastefully handled (at the very least compared to nonsense like Shinji throwing aphrodisiac at Sakura... the hell?).

- Speaking of the sex scene: One of the things that irritated the hell out of me in the VN was that Shirou never vocally disagreed with Sakura's notion of being 'tainted' by her repeated rapes. He just says that he doesn't care, implicitly agreeing that is some kind of taint in the first place. The movie version...edges around the issue similarly, though I have to say that Shirou interjecting that she's beautiful actually kind of feels like he is dismissing the notion. Point for the movie I guess?

- Illya learning of Kiritsugu's travels to Germany through Taiga. I can't remember that was part of the VN and if it's indeed an addition, it's a bloody brilliant one. It very much feels like the addition of Issei's reaction to Kuzuki's death in the previous movie.It gives Illya just the closure that she needs for her all too forgotten abandonment issues. Then again, in terms of importance Illya is not Issei. And I feel that when it comes to adapting stuff, Illya opening up to Shirou during their regular meet-ups at the playgrounds is the one thing that they should have tried to squeeze in. Heaven's Feel was always treated as the route of both Sakura and Illya, but Illya got sidelines so far and I'm afraid it will take away from Illya's action in the final movie.

- Archer's battle scenes. I think these movies so far had been hit or miss when it comes to the fighting. In the last I mentioned how Lancer moving as if having a stick in his butt irritated me. Fate/Zero's awesome dueling where every strike felt like it had weight behind it was strangely absent during the UBW series that always devolved into mindless hacking at each other. Here... Well, I must admit I wasn't a fan of the drawn out Heracles fight. They wasted a ton of screentime to let Berserker shine and yet made it unintentionally hilarious with him and Saber jumping around like gummi bears and Heracles highlighted mangled corpse at the end of every joust. Opposite of that, Archer fighting his way through this murder swamp, shrugging off corruption thanks to his Counter Guardian status was pretty terrific in its simplicity. I also liked him caressing Rin in his last moments, though yes, I am still sore about him selling her out in the other route and being instantly forgiven.

What I found disappointing:

- Like above mentioned, Illya getting her sidestory gutted and ignored feels like a giant waste.

- Of course I will keep complaining about Rin not getting enough screen time. She was barely there in the previous movie, with her breaking into the Matou cellar being her best scene and that one being overshadowed by Saber's death. Here the importance should lie on her conflict between wanting to protect her sister and having to cull the apocalyptic danger she causes. But since Rin barely appears, her change of heart is something happening entirely off-screen, if at that. I feel like while they check the boxes of the scenes where she creates conflicts being portrayed, it doesn't go beyond that. She is there to make the plot happen, but doesn't get any meaningful growth or any kind of story arc in the first place.

- Closely tied to above is the story's limitation to Shirou's POV. While it might be argued that Sakura gets some POV scenes as well, pretty much all of her actions seem to originate in Shirou. Heck, even her reconnecting with Rin is portrayed as something Shirou told her to do, which is absolutely baffling. The scene should have been a triumph for the two, but instead we see it entirely through Shirou's lense, meaning all that's important is Sakura's thankfulness and Rin making a cute face when flustered. Sakura's envy for Rin also didn't get much needed seeding in the first movie, so while still logical, it still just feels like something that just happens whenever it came up now. And much to my dismay there is the final scenes when Sakura decides to go out and face her demons. Pretty much the only scene where she claims some agency immediately cuts to Shinji trying to rape her and her falling into despair. Sorry Sakura, you are not Shirou, meaning you can't just walk into obvious traps without suffering the logical consequences. Unlike him you have to be punished for your single proactive action!

- There is also the scene where Shirou contemplates killing Sakura. Which comes completely out of the left field given that Shirou at that point had already established to consciously ignore the danger coming from her. I loved some ideas they had with that scene, the flashbacks and cinematography, but I can't help but feel it was diminished by the movies previously downplaying Shirou's silly hero complex, omitting pretty much all callbacks to Kiritsugu, and having him ramble so much about already having decided to protect Sakura at all costs before that scene. I also feel like they could have mirrored Kiritsugu's scenes from Fate/Zero a bit more, given that it was portrayed as the pivotal moment where Shirou refused to walk down his father's path.

 

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On 8/25/2019 at 6:43 PM, Toth said:

Heh, or maybe because he's around regular sized children most of the time, given how young Reines and most of his students are. XD

No, he actually is taller, at least in the FGO game where I've got Waver and you can switch between his Fate/Zero skin and his El-Melloi skin the difference is pretty jarring.

Speaking of pretty jarring... in one of my fanfics I was considering a scene where El-Melloi takes down a significantly more skilled Magus using some physics shenanigans and was pretty much deciding against it because I thought it would be too much of a power fantasy for him. And now in the last episode...

  Reveal hidden contents

He was charging a freaking Servant with a mad grin, nullifying Iskandar's  chariot Noble Phantasm by casting some kind of magical lighting rod. He was still run over, but this is some Meme Batman shit he was pulling there. I honestly find it difficult to believe that Waver of all people would one day sit down and wonder to himself "How would I take down Iskandar with just my feeble magic skills?" and actually come up with a plan that actually more or less works (aside from him aforementioned getting run over)!

I must admit, that really took me off-guard because this was exactly the kind of power fantasy that I thought would cheapen Waver if I actually wrote that. And... they just did it... o.O

How old are his students? I mean if he was 19 when he was attending, wouldn't his students also be around that age? Maybe there are different classes for different age groups?

I haven't watched that scene but I think it is pretty normal since his class is based on applying magic in modern times. Earlier on they also mentioned that some astronomy based magic were flawed because their assumptions on planets then doesn't match up to what they now know. I don't think it is too much of a stretch as long as it doesn't involve some complicated and specific understanding of physics/chemistry that requires detailed calculation that he performed instantly.

Also, I've caught up a bit and I don't get that harem feel. Admiration yes. Romance no. I think you're being a wee bit too sensitive. It might be true elsewhere but I don't see it in the anime. 

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10 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Toth

I personally prefer Lost Butterfly to Presage Flower if only because it feels better-paced.

That shows a lot just how long ago it was I watched the first movie. I have no idea any more about the pacing issues of the first one. Sure, there was the entire part they shared with UBW that they just skipped as well as several heavy scenes taking away the impact of each other by being set too closely, but I chalked up most of that to the time constraints.

9 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

How old are his students? I mean if he was 19 when he was attending, wouldn't his students also be around that age? Maybe there are different classes for different age groups?

Just skimmed the wiki. Gray is supposed to be 14, Reines is 15, Olga is 11.

Granted, the only student among those is Gray and she is just there because Waver essentially adopted her. Among the other students Flat is 20, Luvia should be 18, Caules is 18 as well. The eyepatch girl looks much younger but I couldn't find her age anywhere. The wiki does note however that Flat is the oldest one in the class. But since he is mostly hanging out with Gray, it does make a difference.

9 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

I haven't watched that scene but I think it is pretty normal since his class is based on applying magic in modern times. Earlier on they also mentioned that some astronomy based magic were flawed because their assumptions on planets then doesn't match up to what they now know. I don't think it is too much of a stretch as long as it doesn't involve some complicated and specific understanding of physics/chemistry that requires detailed calculation that he performed instantly. 

Well... it's hard to say because they didn't exactly show us what he did. It's just that he...

Spoiler

... saw a Servant use Iskandar's thunder chariot used against him and Gray and immediately went "I know how to stop that" and then did, with some vague explanation that he diverted its thunder into the train beneath him through a spell.

Given the power of such an opponent the only explanation I can come up with is that Waver had been brainstorming about how to defeat this very specific enemy beforehand, which given his dependence on being prepared for anything, actually is somewhat likely. The fact that it actually worked, given the power of that opponent, that's which I find hard to believe, given that for complicated spells like this he usually need assistance. And yet he sends Gray away with a smug grin, saying that he can handle this one.

9 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

Also, I've caught up a bit and I don't get that harem feel. Admiration yes. Romance no. I think you're being a wee bit too sensitive. It might be true elsewhere but I don't see it in the anime. 

Mmh... admiration from all sides by female students that certainly is intended as ship-tease... It's the same thing like with Shirou or Shiki or Mikiya or Hakuno or Gudako... just an awful lot of protagonists in the Nasuverse have this thing that all female characters fall for them without fail. I'm just fearing that Waver now has entered the same company...

The wiki at least goes as far as to state that a lot of the students want to sleep with Waver.

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2 hours ago, Toth said:

Just skimmed the wiki. Gray is supposed to be 14, Reines is 15, Olga is 11.

Granted, the only student among those is Gray and she is just there because Waver essentially adopted her. Among the other students Flat is 20, Luvia should be 18, Caules is 18 as well. The eyepatch girl looks much younger but I couldn't find her age anywhere. The wiki does note however that Flat is the oldest one in the class. But since he is mostly hanging out with Gray, it does make a difference.

Guess Waver really did manage a growth spurt at 19. None of his students come anywhere close to his height from what I can see although they all look 14-15 including Flat. No idea who Olga is but I don't see anyone who looks 11. 

2 hours ago, Toth said:

Well... it's hard to say because they didn't exactly show us what he did. It's just that he...

  Reveal hidden contents

... saw a Servant use Iskandar's thunder chariot used against him and Gray and immediately went "I know how to stop that" and then did, with some vague explanation that he diverted its thunder into the train beneath him through a spell.

Given the power of such an opponent the only explanation I can come up with is that Waver had been brainstorming about how to defeat this very specific enemy beforehand, which given his dependence on being prepared for anything, actually is somewhat likely. The fact that it actually worked, given the power of that opponent, that's which I find hard to believe, given that for complicated spells like this he usually need assistance. And yet he sends Gray away with a smug grin, saying that he can handle this one.

Well, its hard to comment if we don't know what he did. I clicked your spoiler and it seems simple enough. At the very least it doesn't seem like it is something that required great precision although I guess you are doubting that Waver has enough raw power to do so.

3 hours ago, Toth said:

Mmh... admiration from all sides by female students that certainly is intended as ship-tease... It's the same thing like with Shirou or Shiki or Mikiya or Hakuno or Gudako... just an awful lot of protagonists in the Nasuverse have this thing that all female characters fall for them without fail. I'm just fearing that Waver now has entered the same company...

The wiki at least goes as far as to state that a lot of the students want to sleep with Waver.

Well, I'm not too familiar with all these but the earlier series was an 18+ visual novel with that specific intention. I think that they have built up enough popularity to not have to continue down that route and also change to a more serious product to cater to a bigger audience.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/28/2019 at 8:11 PM, Proudfeet said:

Well, I'm not too familiar with all these but the earlier series was an 18+ visual novel with that specific intention. I think that they have built up enough popularity to not have to continue down that route and also change to a more serious product to cater to a bigger audience.

Yeah, I am all too well aware of that. Unfortunately I've gotten the impression that they still do feel the need to go down that route. Just because sex sells even if it's just fantasies about a relatable character being pursued by a lot of pretty Anime girls. My main gripe is that this usually causes damage to these female characters that are then just downgraded to shipping-material.

Oh well, whatever.

So... haven't seen much, but yesterday thanks to the current PvP event being not very time consuming I played through the current chapters of the English Magia Record game. And... while I am still a bit unsure about the Anime adaptation, chapter 5 was so solidly written that I at least would like to see it animated. While it does share the same problem of all of Magia Record that it never feels like anyone is any real danger whatsoever, it strikes a perfect balance between being funny and serious, slightly touching upon themes that Madoka Magica should actually be about.

Of course, the pinnacle of funny is the side story of Tsuruno, Felicia and Homura! When it appeared on the Japanase server I was already seeing people referencing "Homura pulls out a gun" as the most hilarious thing ever, but now seeing this entire scene unfold in its even more wacky context really made me smile. Please Magia Record Anime, don't mess this scene up:
 

Spoiler

So chapter 5 is about the protagonist gang invastigating what the evil magical girls gang of the "Wings of Magius" are up to involving a radio tower. To cover more ground they split up, with Tsuruno and Felicia forming one team.

Tsuruno then has the sudden idea that they could just as well get their information directly from the source: She found the school one of their members goes to, pretends to be a relative and asks for her to be called out to the school gate, where she and Felicia just grab her and make a run for it. Felicia praises her for such a genius villain plot, much to Tsuruno's dismay who keeps insisting that they still are the good guys here. In any case, the plan goes off without a hitch and they kidnap Tsukuyo, the enemy Magical Girl in question, who immediately goes all dramatic, lamenting how she is kidnapped by vile villains who are going to maim, torture and interrogate her for information (with Tsuruno still insisting that they are the good guys here).

To ease the tention they drag Tsukuyo to a nearby café to interrogate her over some drinks. Tsuruno and Felicia there get sidetracked, bickering about their orders with a visibly flabbergasted Tsukuyo asking whether they forgot that they just kidnapped her. After some more inept attempts to make her spill the beans, Tsukuyo decides to just get up and make a run for it. Felicia and Tsuruno dash after her, but the latter gets stopped by the waiter because they obviously haven't paid yet. Felicia fears that she might loose Tsukuyo, so she calls out to all nearby people that Tsukuyo is a dine-and-dasher and asks them to stop her.

... and the person directly in front of Tsukuyo's escape path is Homura Akemi who has no connection to any of these people and just so happens to walk by. Felicia now directly demands from her to stop the escapee. Homura, at peak confusion, panics and obliges by pulling out a gun on Tsukuyo, saying "Please pay your bill!". Tsukuyo immediately folds and is captured again, but during the following conversation keeps repeating "That girl pointed a real freaking gun at me! What the hell is wrong with her?", with Felicia finding that reaction just amusing while Homura is still confused what the hell is going on.

This entire thing was just so utterly random and nonsensically funny and I loved how Tsukuyo looked just so done with this day when she was finally let go.

Edited by Toth

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On 8/31/2019 at 8:39 PM, Toth said:

Yeah, I am all too well aware of that. Unfortunately I've gotten the impression that they still do feel the need to go down that route. Just because sex sells even if it's just fantasies about a relatable character being pursued by a lot of pretty Anime girls. My main gripe is that this usually causes damage to these female characters that are then just downgraded to shipping-material.

Well, shipping material is a really really low bar to clear. You could probably include quite a few guys if you want. The way I look at it, it is more appropriate to say that characters have to rise above being just shipping material rather than be downgraded to shipping material. Any brief interaction usually suffices. Having an actual romance angle is a much higher bar and I don't see it yet.

Anyway, I caught up to that scene and it doesn't seem as if Waver handled it quite as well as you made it out to be. He managed to shield Gray and slightly mitigate that attack but that's about it. It didn't seem complex in the least either. Also, yes, Olga doesn't look or act 11. No way.

Also, the VA for Gray was also cast in Kimetsu. I have to say I much prefer her whimsical voice to her reserved voice. Its not that her performance is bad or anything, but I feel that the characters in Case Files are more serious which leads to them also being more bland while Kimetsu is more exaggerated which allows the VAs to give more character to their characters. Gray's shout on her finishing blow is pretty great though. 

To be honest, I feel pretty conned by the promotional poster that attracted me. Gray aside, Flat and Caules are complete side characters that barely have any screen time. I was looking forward to them since their performance in Re: Zero was highly regarded, but well, they barely appear despite being one of the few names on the poster and regardless of that, probably won't have the opportunity to put their ability on full display anyway.

I really should find another streaming site that offers Re: Zero and maybe also Vinland Saga. Don't know who was casted in it but the reviews were really great.

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7 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

Well, shipping material is a really really low bar to clear. You could probably include quite a few guys if you want.

... and I kinda do as well, to be honest. XD

Quote

The way I look at it, it is more appropriate to say that characters have to rise above being just shipping material rather than be downgraded to shipping material. Any brief interaction usually suffices. Having an actual romance angle is a much higher bar and I don't see it yet. 

In any other franchise I would be in total agreement with you there! Characters made for shipping or to just be adorable usually just feel like a bundle of stereotypes glued together and that those only in some rare instances grow above that. But I think the sinister thing about the Fate franchise and what causes me to always give it another chance is that it usually is the other way around here. That they take a well-developed female character with rich background and sensible character traits... and then to get this one absorbed by the black hole aura of some bland protagonist, narratively sidelined into the role of a love interest and robbed of all agency and potential for a story of their own.

Just take Stay Night itself, it is full of such characters that you wouldn't expect in your usual dating sim or whatever. Like Rin. In the initial draft she was the protagonist in form of Ayako for crying out loud! Until Nasu got convinced that nobody would buy a bishoujo series with a female protagonist, so he violently inserted Shirou into the story despite lacking almost all of Rin's personal involvement in the Grail War and genderbent Arthur to keep the Master/Servant romance option. Rin's own route is then sacrificed for the sake of Shirou and Archer monologuing at each other, with her own demons barely getting mentioned, much less getting a resolution. Fellow love interests Saber and Sakura are similarly treated.

Saber being freaking King Arthur, having been forced to wear the mask of the untouchable king all her life, fighting for the chance to undo her mistakes and save her kingdom... and somehow her arc revolves entirely about "learning how to be treated as a woman", which somehow involves getting constantly put down and 'protected' by the world's stupidest lemming and growing to love him for that, for some reason. Sakura then, the girl who had been a hostage for most of her life, being the source of Rin's unresolved regrets, resisting all attempts to break her spirit and body, secretly claiming Shirou's house as a refuge from the horrors at home, constantly worrying about how telling him the truth would cost him his life, tragically forgotten in both the previous routes with her story unfolding as a major gut-punch calling the previous happy endings into question... and then ending up with barely a shred of agency in the actual story, either getting tossed around by the torturous narrative or getting forced into the role of a broken woobie villain, with the story ultimately being about how Shirou could save someone whose survival kills so many. And what's with Rin? Ah, she's just a bitch causing conflict for little reason in this version of the story. Suuuure.

Ignoring Illya and the way her relationship to Kiritsugu is often treated as an afterthought and instead all the attention being on her being utterly smitten with Shirou even beyond her seeing in him a connection to her father... there is also Medusa. So Nasu took the most depressing possible backstory of hers, what with getting raped in a temple, cursed for it and outcast, mirror her story with Sakura to explain their strong bond... and while that initially makes a great supporting character... there is that stupendous ship tease with Shirou again. For example I loved that scene in Hollow Ataraxia where Shirou and Medusa were just relaxing and exchanging book recommendations. Such a little tidbit that gives the characters some depth by showing them in a casual setting, highlighting especially Medusa's interests. I really loved that! But... somehow this whole thing ended up with Medusa fantasizing a threesome with Shirou and Sakura and the whole idea that they might work as good friends went right out the window again. -.-

Now I just looked at the El-Melloi Case Files I agree that things might not be quite as egregious. But still... There is Gray blushing when asked to take care of Waver, there is Reines being totally interested in the status of Waver's virginity and joking about wanting children from him, there is this weird eyepatch girl wanting to seduce Waver and seeing the others as rivals... and yes, there is Flat going on about Waver's attractiveness. It makes you worry that these characters will be hampered by that, especially Gray who actually has a proper backstory that goes beyond a few cliff notes.

Edited by Toth

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31 minutes ago, Toth said:

... and I kinda do as well, to be honest. XD

In any other franchise I would be in total agreement with you there! Characters made for shipping or to just be adorable usually just feel like a bundle of stereotypes glued together and that those only in some rare instances grow above that. But I think the sinister thing about the Fate franchise and what causes me to always give it another chance is that it usually is the other way around here. That they take a well-developed female character with rich background and sensible character traits... and then to get this one absorbed by the black hole aura of some bland protagonist, narratively sidelined into the role of a love interest and robbed of all agency and potential for a story of their own.

I'm not as familiar with Fate and the other Type-Moon franchises as you are, so I would defer to your judgement, but I will repeat what I said before. Its a different product for a different audience (hopefully) and I just don't see it here.

I watched Stay Night over a decade ago and didn't go for the visual novel or any of the spinoffs until I watched Zero, but I remember how Shirou supplies mana to Saber because he was so "bad at magic". That's the kind of product it was. Its about getting all the female characters naked and the protagonist and broken plot is kind of necessary for that.

I think that with the way that the FGO mobile game is printing money, they can sell fan service directly through the female (and male) characters in the game and they don't need to have a protagonist in the same way as Stay Night. I've never played the game so I might be wrong, but I don't think there is the same pressure to establish a harem in the other franchises.

For Case Files, I think that it is still firmly on the possible not probable side. Gray's the closest, but it feels mixed with Waver being a father figure. Its not out of the question after Usagi Drop and other more recent titles, but I think it is still a stretch thus far. Reines is unlikely. Waver is more of a toy/pet than a love interest. If she goes for Waver, it will be for practical reasons. And weird eye patch girl doesn't have enough screen time yet to form an opinion. :dunno: 

__

I might be completely off base since it really has been a long time, but I thought Rin was supposed to be the book smart with no street smarts stereotype which inevitably leads to trouble in the real world. She isn't going around looking to cause conflict, conflict follows her. And calling tsunderes bitches is kind of harsh.

Also, my main takeaway from Stay Night was Unlimited Blade Works, characters be damned. It might be an inferior imitation of Gate of Babylon but it came first and the same thing just doesn't have the same impact after you've already seen it before.

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55 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I watched Stay Night over a decade ago and didn't go for the visual novel or any of the spinoffs until I watched Zero, but I remember how Shirou supplies mana to Saber because he was so "bad at magic". That's the kind of product it was. Its about getting all the female characters naked and the protagonist and broken plot is kind of necessary for that.

Ya know, you can make your protas naked even without taking away their story. XD

Come to think of it, the best romance I ever read in a VN was Ryukishi's (only) route in Rewrite. In a way, it's awfully similar to Stay Night. You've got an Urban Fantasy setting with a secret battle to save the world unfolding in the shadow of some modern Japanese city, a seemingly ordinary high school student protagonist dude who keeps his superpowers secret... and with Lucia you've got a cross of Rin and Sakura in that she's a Tsundere class president who bosses him around and yet is still traumatized by nightmarish experiments by a secret organization that has severely altered her body. There are some more elements that remind me positively of Higurashi, what with the whole occult club full of girls and it has no sex scenes (though it is heavily implied that Kotarou and Lucia have a ton of it in the epilogue). The major difference however (and the one that makes it stand out among the rest of Rewrite, which is frankly a mediocre story at best) is that Ryukishi gives both of them room to breath. Though Kotarou is the main POV, it is first and foremost Lucia's story and her state of mind and decisions get the most focus, while at the same time the story also manages to involve all of the supporting cast without having to kill them off right away. Some die without getting a resolution, sure, but others get so heavily involved that their arcs in Lucia's route are frankly better than in their own routes (looking at Chiharu here). Kotarou here was not the magical narrative black hole that forces the entire world to revolve around him (like so many Fate protagonists do), instead all the personal stories of the characters unfolded on their own and he maneuvered through the events caused by them while at the same time affecting it through his decisions.

55 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I think that with the way that the FGO mobile game is printing money, they can sell fan service directly through the female (and male) characters in the game and they don't need to have a protagonist in the same way as Stay Night. I've never played the game so I might be wrong, but I don't think there is the same pressure to establish a harem in the other franchises.

Ah... As someone who has played the game... well... I'm afraid you are wrong. Gudako, the protagonist of FGO, may lack any character whatsoever, but it doesn't change the fact that not only Mashu, but almost all female characters throw themselves at him, many equaling him with some love interest they had in life. The player IS supposed to feel like collecting a harem...

55 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I might be completely off base since it really has been a long time, but I thought Rin was supposed to be the book smart with no street smarts stereotype which inevitably leads to trouble in the real world.

Mmh... Well, aside from being hopeless with tech, Rin is actually both book and street smart. Remember that she didn't grow up all that sheltered, but was of her own with only Kotomine as a guardian. Her main problem is being burdened with legacy of her father and her status as a magical prodigy. So she thinks she has to act like the heartless amoral magus, but it's constantly clashing with her very human morals that she gained because she managed to grow up free from being raised by magi.

Quote

She isn't going around looking to cause conflict, conflict follows her. And calling tsunderes bitches is kind of harsh.

I was explicitly referencing how she behaves in Heaven's Feel, where she acts quite absurdly OOC. Being a tsundere archetype is one thing, but telling your horribly abused sister who is at the brink of a mental breakdown that you couldn't care less about her suffering when she makes a desperate attempt to reach out to you does make you look like a heartless bitch. It's only diminished by me thinking that the Rin from the prologue chapter would never act like that and it's just there to make the plot happen. Then again, I'm also thinking that Archer how he is usually portrayed wouldn't allow Shinji to rape Rin and gloat to Shirou about that, but UBW still has that happen for some reason and there too we are supposed to instantly forgive him...

Edited by Toth

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9 hours ago, Toth said:

Ya know, you can make your protas naked even without taking away their story. XD

Sure, but there are limits. You have to force things if they don't mesh well. One of the two has to break character and when the protagonist is a typical ultra dense rock, it is the female characters who have to. This happens not only with harem endings but also when authors pair up all their characters for some reason. The result is usually awkward and stilted.

9 hours ago, Toth said:

I'm afraid you are wrong. Gudako, the protagonist of FGO, may lack any character whatsoever, but it doesn't change the fact that not only Mashu, but almost all female characters throw themselves at him, many equaling him with some love interest they had in life.

I assumed that the protagonist would have been a nameless mannequin with zero agency which makes it easier for the players to assume the role. Also, the bar to skimpy clothes is virtually non-existent so they don't even have to like the protagonist. Bummer.

9 hours ago, Toth said:

Mmh... Well, aside from being hopeless with tech, Rin is actually both book and street smart. Remember that she didn't grow up all that sheltered, but was of her own with only Kotomine as a guardian. Her main problem is being burdened with legacy of her father and her status as a magical prodigy. So she thinks she has to act like the heartless amoral magus, but it's constantly clashing with her very human morals that she gained because she managed to grow up free from being raised by magi.

Well, it has been a long time. My impression of her was that she was rather naive. I don't know about her being heartless because if she was trying to do so, she fails very badly. 

9 hours ago, Toth said:

I was explicitly referencing how she behaves in Heaven's Feel, where she acts quite absurdly OOC. Being a tsundere archetype is one thing, but telling your horribly abused sister who is at the brink of a mental breakdown that you couldn't care less about her suffering when she makes a desperate attempt to reach out to you does make you look like a heartless bitch. It's only diminished by me thinking that the Rin from the prologue chapter would never act like that and it's just there to make the plot happen. Then again, I'm also thinking that Archer how he is usually portrayed wouldn't allow Shinji to rape Rin and gloat to Shirou about that, but UBW still has that happen for some reason and there too we are supposed to instantly forgive him...

I don't remember any of that. :dunno:

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12 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

Sure, but there are limits. You have to force things if they don't mesh well. One of the two has to break character and when the protagonist is a typical ultra dense rock, it is the female characters who have to. This happens not only with harem endings but also when authors pair up all their characters for some reason. The result is usually awkward and stilted.

... and that result wouldn't be just considered bad writing? You see, I'm very skeptical of stories with that premise for exactly that reason.

12 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

I assumed that the protagonist would have been a nameless mannequin with zero agency which makes it easier for the players to assume the role. Also, the bar to skimpy clothes is virtually non-existent so they don't even have to like the protagonist. Bummer.

That's not to say that he isn't a faceless mannequin without any character whatsoever. But he's supposed to be you and you are supposed to be totally irresistible.

12 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

I don't remember any of that. :dunno:

Well, the Heaven's Feel movies so far have downplayed it (by virtue of Rin barely appearing at all). I think there already was a lot more hostility from Rin up to the point where she decides that Sakura has to die in the VN, with her Tsundere thing being ramped up to eleven. Admittedly, I maybe better spoiler tag that because Rin's true massive dog-kicking happens constantly near the end of the route, so it should be apparent in the third movie.

And neither of you remember how Archer kidnapped Rin and handed her to Shinji? With him noting that she's probably being raped as they speak when Shirou arrived? That I remember clearly happening in the second half of the UBW Anime.

Edited by Toth

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1 minute ago, Toth said:

... and that result wouldn't be just considered bad writing? You see, I'm very skeptical of stories with that premise for exactly that reason.

Yes, it is bad writing. I mean that it gets worse the harder you push and that Stay Night is at the extreme. Case Files is supposedly a mystery series, so innocent until proven guilty.

5 minutes ago, Toth said:

That's not to say that he isn't a faceless mannequin without any character whatsoever. But he's supposed to be you and you are supposed to be totally irresistible.

Well, my thinking is that the characters won't have to contort themselves too much if you are basically a blank slate. You won't have any out of character moments if you don't have a character. And if you can get players invested into the servants through the game, you don't have to force things in the other related series. 

14 minutes ago, Toth said:

Well, the Heaven's Feel movies so far have downplayed it (by virtue of Rin barely appearing at all). I think there already was a lot more hostility from Rin up to the point where she decides that Sakura has to die, with her Tsundere thing being ramped up to eleven. Admittedly, I maybe better spoiler tag that because Rin's true massive dog-kicking happens constantly near the end of the route, so it should be apparent in the third movie.

And neither of you remember how Archer kidnapped Rin and handed her to Shinji? With him noting that she's probably being raped as they speak when Shirou arrived? That I remember clearly happening in the second half of the UBW Anime.

What movies? As I said, I watched the anime a long time ago and haven't watched any of the spinoffs up till now. I remember basic plot points but exact details are kind of iffy. I also have some understanding through osmosis because well, its Fate. I'm obviously not as invested as you are so I will take your word for it, but I'm watching Case Files at roughly the same time as you are (one week back for free users at minimum) and disagree with you which is why I assume we're having this discussion.

 

Also, I kind of get that you guys don't really care about the cast in anime, but Kimetsu's credits list continues to be an impressive collection of veterans.  :stunned: Since the discussion here is mostly on Fate, the VA for Gilgamesh is included in the latest addition of supporting characters. 

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1 hour ago, Proudfeet said:

What movies? As I said, I watched the anime a long time ago and haven't watched any of the spinoffs up till now. I remember basic plot points but exact details are kind of iffy. I also have some understanding through osmosis because well, its Fate.

Ah! Aaaah! I totally forgot that you only watched the DEEN Anime of the Fate-route! I'm sorry. Of course all my gripes about Stay Night would fly over the head when I'm referencing the Unlimited Blade Works Anime and scenes from the Heaven's Feel route.

Yeah... they... they almost kinda adapted all of the original eroge VN by now.

1 hour ago, Proudfeet said:

I'm obviously not as invested as you are so I will take your word for it, but I'm watching Case Files at roughly the same time as you are (one week back for free users at minimum) and disagree with you which is why I assume we're having this discussion.

As far as I can see the only point we are disagreeing on is on how much ship-teasing counts as obstruction to storytelling.^^

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18 hours ago, Toth said:

Ah! Aaaah! I totally forgot that you only watched the DEEN Anime of the Fate-route! I'm sorry. Of course all my gripes about Stay Night would fly over the head when I'm referencing the Unlimited Blade Works Anime and scenes from the Heaven's Feel route.

Yeah... they... they almost kinda adapted all of the original eroge VN by now.

As far as I can see the only point we are disagreeing on is on how much ship-teasing counts as obstruction to storytelling.^^

Heh, that kind of stuff is partially why I am wary of adaptations. I assume in this case that since there are different routes, the results are meant to be different, but adaptations often omit and add stuff that results in a different story. Also, I probably wouldn't remember even if we were discussing the same series. I remember that Shinji is a Joffrey type of character but I can't remember anything specific he did.

I think I actually disagree with your interpretation of some scenes and think that you are overreacting. 

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Not an anime per se but the trailer for season 2 of Disenchanted was released two days ago. It looks nice. The show really picked up in the later episodes of season 1 so I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the story.

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@Toth Not sure if you are interested in Japanese Drama, but you seem to like murder mysteries and the final episode of one is airing tomorrow/tonight. It seems like its a hot topic over in Japan so I'm trying to find a place where I can watch it. 

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