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The caves are timeless: Hollow hills. Magic castles and Greenseers.


Wizz-The-Smith

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On ‎05‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:59 AM, Pain killer Jane said:

And the dwarf that was impersonating Hugor used to run around the bowels of Casterly Rock, lighting fires in those bowels. So I think the Andals were familiar with those powers. We have two Andal families that may be bird skinchangers; the Arryns through Artys Arryn and the Tyrells.....I know that last one seems weird but Luthor is specifically said by Olenna to have 

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managed to ride off a cliff whilst hawking. They say he was looking up at the sky and paying no mind to where his horse was taking him.

Sansa I, aSoS

and Varamyr says

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Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

Prologue, aDwD

Seems far-fetched I know but it is nagging at me. But again with the Tyrells we can say this trait came in with Gardener women that married into the Tyrells because Garth had at least one daughter who could skin change birds so that could be that situation. But something tells me that Arryn prides itself on the purity of their Andal blood but......they are not nearly completely crazy as the Targaryens due to that. For me, Jon Arryn is like an English Bulldog that was just at the end of his genetic line. Anyway I will look forward to you delving into Andal Magic.

Indeed, some others familiar with this underworld include Bran [obviously] Arya in the HoBaW [and High Heart], Sam and his near drowning experience below Horn Hill, Jaime mentioning his memories of the caverns beneath Casterly Rock etc...

I love your catch regards Luthor and his tragic end, that is interesting.  I agree that sounds very much like he was 'staring up at the bloody blue'.  And yes, I too think the Tyrells are candidates for having some sort of magic ability, and as you say, the progeny from the Gardener women would only support this idea.  In fact the Reach seems a hotbed of greenseeing with many castles built on top of the hollow hills, and many of the offspring of Garth the Green based nearby.  I certainly don't think it's far-fetched, rather a good catch worthy of discussion.  Anyway, I will continue with my 'Andal magic' research and look forward to any thoughts.  :)             

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2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Indeed, some others familiar with this underworld include Bran [obviously] Arya in the HoBaW [and High Heart], Sam and his near drowning experience below Horn Hill, Jaime mentioning his memories of the caverns beneath Casterly Rock etc...

I love your catch regards Luthor and his tragic end, that is interesting.  I agree that sounds very much like he was 'staring up at the bloody blue'.  And yes, I too think the Tyrells are candidates for having some sort of magic ability, and as you say, the progeny from the Gardener women would only support this idea.  In fact the Reach seems a hotbed of greenseeing with many castles built on top of the hollow hills, and many of the offspring of Garth the Green based nearby.  I certainly don't think it's far-fetched, rather a good catch worthy of discussion.  Anyway, I will continue with my 'Andal magic' research and look forward to any thoughts.  :)             

 

2 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

@Pain killer Jane Love your catch about Luther Tyrell! Makes perfect sense in that context! 

Thank You to the both of you! At least I don't feel like it is not completely in his head. 

I like the 'bloody blue' because it makes me think of the Blackfish talking about the red comet. 

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"That thing's not crimson," Ser Brynden said. "Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That's blood up there, child, smeared across the sky."

Anyway....yes you are right about the Reach. We get a lot of lore and rumors that seem to add up to "here be greenseers" but none have appeared. Maybe now that Sam is in the vicinity we will get more. 

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So I have another place on a hill, the House of Kisses on top of Visenya's Hill where the Sept of Baelor sits currently.....

Oh and I was examining the name Torrhen when I ran across the definition of 'Tor' from English and Welsh means a 'tower', 'hill' or 'craggy out crop of rock on a hill' 

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4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Will it shortly be 'kissed by fire'..? ;)

ooohh that is a good one. @LmL mentioned to me the other day about the double hills being double moons and then the association with breasts. So if Visenya's and Rhaenys' hills are a pair of breast than Aegon's High Hill is a vagina where his son built his bloody red castle in the sky....

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6 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

ooohh that is a good one. @LmL mentioned to me the other day about the double hills being double moons and then the association with breasts. So if Visenya's and Rhaenys' hills are a pair of breast than Aegon's High Hill is a vagina where his son built his bloody red castle in the sky....

More precisely the cavernous dungeons of the 'hollow hill' as vagina (like Tobho Mott's womb-tomb of the 'dark materials') from which the flaming red sword emerges after (re-)forging...

It's all making sense to me now!

Not sure @Wizz-The-Smith wants the thread to go down that route though...

:unsure:

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28 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So I have another place on a hill, the House of Kisses on top of Visenya's Hill where the Sept of Baelor sits currently.....

Oh and I was examining the name Torrhen when I ran across the definition of 'Tor' from English and Welsh means a 'tower', 'hill' or 'craggy out crop of rock on a hill' 

Hey PKJ, I was logging in to reply in the Puns and Wordplay thread, but as you've mentioned it here....  I love the catch that 'Tor' means craggy hill or tower/watchtower, and I loved all the Torrhen chat over there.  Good work on finding another place on a hill in the House of Kisses, but in fact you've found two at the same time.  ;)

The Tor is the seat of House Jordayne in Dorne, and is an interesting if not important castle.  With you finding that Tor means 'craggy hill/watchtower' and @Isobel Harper and @ravenous reader's additions, including the meaning of 'gateway' or 'portal', and suddenly the Tor sounds very much like all the castles I highlighted in the OP.  I think the Tor is another possible castle built with access to the underworld.  In fact George may have reason to give this castle a cool angle, a tribute to fellow author Robert Jordan.

House Jordayne is named as a nod to Jordan

'Tor' doubles as the name of Jordan's publishers as well as the 'Jordaynes' castle. 

Lord Trebor Jordayne is the head of the House and is another tip of the cap as Trebor is Robert spelt backwards. 

So yeah, loving that catch, good work.  :D       

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4 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey PKJ, I was logging in to reply in the Puns and Wordplay thread, but as you've mentioned it here....  I love the catch that 'Tor' means craggy hill or tower/watchtower, and I loved all the Torrhen chat over there.  Good work on finding another place on a hill in the House of Kisses, but in fact you've found two at the same time.  ;)

:cheers: Glad I could help. Oh we forgot the Dragon Pit on the Hill of Rhaenys but I bet that the situation with the dragons there is similar to the situation of the weirwood trees unable to take root at the Eyrie. 

8 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

The Tor is the seat of House Jordayne in Dorne, and is an interesting if not important castle.  With you finding that Tor means 'craggy hill/watchtower' and @Isobel Harper and @ravenous reader's additions, including the meaning of 'gateway' or 'portal', and suddenly the Tor sounds very much like all the castles I highlighted in the OP.  I think the Tor is another possible castle built with access to the underworld.  In fact George may have reason to give this castle a cool angle, a tribute to fellow author Robert Jordan.

House Jordayne is named as a nod to Jordan

'Tor' doubles as the name of Jordan's publishers as well as the 'Jordaynes' castle. 

Lord Trebor Jordayne is the head of the House and is another tip of the cap as Trebor is Robert spelt backwards. 

Nice!

Nice! I love that it is Robert spelled backwards but you know what else, Tre is a place indicator from Celtic origins meaning "hamlet, farmstead, estate" so could it be also 'farmstead of the boar'?

46 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

More precisely the cavernous dungeons of the 'hollow hill' as vagina (like Tobho Mott's womb-tomb of the 'dark materials') from which the flaming red sword emerges after (re-)forging...

I could definitely agree to that because the Guildhall of the Alchemists is located at the base and they do store their green fire in underground vaults. 

 

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57 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

More precisely the cavernous dungeons of the 'hollow hill' as vagina (like Tobho Mott's womb-tomb of the 'dark materials') from which the flaming red sword emerges after (re-)forging...

It's all making sense to me now!

Not sure @Wizz-The-Smith wants the thread to go down that route though...

:unsure:

I'm always interested in what you've got to say, especially if it's all starting to make sense now.  :) 

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

More precisely the cavernous dungeons of the 'hollow hill' as vagina (like Tobho Mott's womb-tomb of the 'dark materials') from which the flaming red sword emerges after (re-)forging...

It's all making sense to me now!

And now we are also in Mithras country. 

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

:cheers: Glad I could help. Oh we forgot the Dragon Pit on the Hill of Rhaenys but I bet that the situation with the dragons there is similar to the situation of the weirwood trees unable to take root at the Eyrie. 

:cheers:  Nice.  Indeed, I mentioned these hills up thread, but only in their hollow hill status before Targaryen invasion.  It's interesting that the Targ's also used/built atop the hills, and likewise, Dragonstone [an island] has all the underground evidence I have sited in other castles, including caverns, passages, hidden ways etc.. 

You also mention the Eyrie, an Andal castle, but again built above caverns/atop a mountain.  The Valyrians settled amongst the home of the dragons, and the lairs/caves/caverns of the mountains, and the Boash religion was well known there as we know.  The Andals and their hills of Andalos, Leng, the Old/Deep Ones etc.. The ancient Essossi seem well aware of this potential magic found beneath the hills/in the caverns [and perhaps this 'third eye' Boashii religion] therefore any invaders of Westeros would perhaps seek out such positions of strength.  :dunno:  Anyway, I'll look at some of that when I eventually get to finishing the Andal section.  :)       

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Hi. I'm new to this board so please bare with me. I was scrolling through the examples here and found them to be incredibly enlightening aa well as the original post. Thank you all for the conversation as I bite  my nails waiting for TWOW!!

I was wondering if the story of Bael the Bard's fits into this theme. When The daughter came back with her son, she mentioned that she had been there the whole time. If not for Bael, the Stark line might have died out, (if the tale can be believed). Could Bael have been a Greenseer? He obviously had quite an extensive knowledge of the wierwood network if they lived under the crypts for that long a period of time.

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On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 11:37 AM, Cschell said:

Hi. I'm new to this board so please bare with me. I was scrolling through the examples here and found them to be incredibly enlightening aa well as the original post. Thank you all for the conversation as I bite  my nails waiting for TWOW!!

I was wondering if the story of Bael the Bard's fits into this theme. When The daughter came back with her son, she mentioned that she had been there the whole time. If not for Bael, the Stark line might have died out, (if the tale can be believed). Could Bael have been a Greenseer? He obviously had quite an extensive knowledge of the wierwood network if they lived under the crypts for that long a period of time.

Hi Cschell, welcome to the forum.  :)  And thank you for your kind words about the thread, much appreciated.

Regards Bael, we don't get much evidence for us to label him another potential greenseer, but I like your thinking.  We've also got the fact he posed as a singer, Sygerrik of Skagos, which may inspire thoughts of the singers in Bloodraven's cave.  And as you mention, if the legend is correct then the Stark's are all descended from his line, and we know they have the greenseer gene.  It could however be the female line that is more important.  We don't really get enough about him to nail it down further than that. 

As you point out, he did spend a long period of time below Winterfell in the cavern-like crypts.  He would have had to go exploring to find any weirnet throne roots, but being down there for roughly a year means Bael is a prime candidate if anyone did explore the forgotten lower levels. I'm unsure on Bael as a greenseer, but definitely worth consideration. 

Thanks Cschell,   :D     

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  • 1 month later...

Another cavernous location mentioned in the books and actually being pooh-poohed by its lord is the cavern near LF's home tower. He almost shows it to Sansa when he takes her on a tour around his original lands. LF also tells the story of how his father took him there to some seer who said that LF would raise high. To this LF says to Sansa he didn't need anyone to foretell him that, and further dismissing it. We don't have any report of there being a weirwood near I think, but who knows :dunno:

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎02‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 10:30 PM, sweetsunray said:

Another cavernous location mentioned in the books and actually being pooh-poohed by its lord is the cavern near LF's home tower. He almost shows it to Sansa when he takes her on a tour around his original lands. LF also tells the story of how his father took him there to some seer who said that LF would raise high. To this LF says to Sansa he didn't need anyone to foretell him that, and further dismissing it. We don't have any report of there being a weirwood near I think, but who knows :dunno:

Hi Sweetsunray.  :)

Thank you for pointing this out, it is easily missed, great catch!   Plus this example is similar to the hermit's cave we find on the Quiet Isle.  Here is the text...

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Farther inland a dozen families lived in huts of piled stone beside a peat bog. ''Mine own smallfolk,'' Petyr said, though only the oldest seemed to know him.  There was a hermit's cave on his land as well, but no hermit. ''He's dead now, but when I was a boy my father took me to see him.  The man had not washed in forty years, so you can imagine how he smelled, but supposedly he had the gift of prophecy.  He groped me a bit and said I would be a great man, and for that my father gave him a skin of wine.'' Petyr snorted. ''I would have told him the same thing for half a cup.'' [Sansa VI, ASOS]

Awesome, The Fingers is another site we can list as having potentially magic caves/caverns, and a second hermit living within the darkness of the caves.  Thanks again, love it!  :D  

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Hey Whizz, thanks for directing me to this thread.  Your willingness to really dig into the various books and pull out the small details made the OP not only great, but turned a long read into a pleasure.  The idea of the castles built on hills above caverns being powerful makes sense.  The hollow hills being full of power and the later discussion of islands sent me back to my favorite isle in Westeros, which is of course the Quiet Isle so I decided to reread the chapter with a 'hollow hill' lens.

Now I don't think the Elder Brother is a greenseer, but he is a powerful healer, who has I would say, some power behind him to be able to cure. "The Seven have blessed our Elder Brother with healing hands. He has restored many a man to health that even the maesters could not cure, and many a woman too."  which may indicate the EB has more than the usual power to heal, and unlike the Maesters, we don't know how he learned his healing skills.

The question of 'Is the Quiet Isle a hollow hill' is unresolved as only one cave and no tunnels are mentioned, but lets look at it and see what is there.  First, the isle is hard to reach.  If the tide is out it is surrounded by dangerous mud flats that can be crossed but only if one knows the way as Septon Meribald tells Brianne and co; " The path of faith, we call it. Only the faithful may cross safely. The wicked are swallowed by the quicksands, or drowned when the tide comes rushing in. None of you are wicked, I hope? Even so, I would be careful where I set my feet. Walk only where I walk, and you shall reach the other side.  The path of faith was a crooked one, Brienne could not help but note."

The first description of the isle notes "The septry stood upon an upthrust island half a mile from the shore, where the wide mouth of the Trident widened further still to kiss the Bay of Crabs. Even from shore its prosperity was apparent. Its slope was covered with terraced fields, with fishponds down below and a windmill above, its wood-and-sailcloth blades turning slowly in the breeze off the bay. Brienne could see sheep grazing on the hillside and storks wading in the shallow waters around the ferry landing."  So right away there we are given the appearance of a hill with a septry on an 'upthrust' hill and a slope covered with fields.  

Bri and party are met at the shoreline, because thanks to the hill, anyone making an approach can be easily seen  On the way we learn about the QI, below on the more level areas there is an orchard and a stable, then the slope steepens and we find, "...a flight of wooden steps that wandered back and forth across the hillside and amongst the buildings."  On the upper slope there are sheepherders and higher still we see a lichyard.

Next, "The brow of the hill was crowned by a low wall of unmortared stone, encircling a cluster of large buildings; the windmill, its sails creaking as they turned, the cloisters where the brothers slept and the common hall where they took their meals, a wooden sept for prayer and meditation. The sept had windows of leaded glass, wide doors carved with likenesses of the Mother and the Father, and a seven-sided steeple with a walk on top.’"

And finally, the cave "Brother Narbert led the visitors around a chestnut tree to a wooden door set in the side of the hill."  Not just any cave, a cave with a history "A cave with a door?" Ser Hyle said, surprised.  Septon Meribald smiled. "It is called the Hermit's Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later."

So what do we have here?  We have the opposite of a hollow hill as the 'castle', which in this case I would argue would be the buildings on the hills brow; the large building, a windmill, cloisters and a sept with a tall steeple.  Then, above all that we have the cave.  So instead of castle above and cave below, we have castle below and cave above!  Also, no weirwood tree in sight.

So, if the Elder Brother has power, from where does it come?  Well, the cave is the highest inhabited space of the isle and one where the leaders use as their abode.  It is furnished with woolen rugs, wall hangings and furniture, more opulent than what is found in the descriptions of the other building and with the door the space is also private.  It is the place where for 2000 years the powerful Elder Brothers have made their own.

One interesting aspect of the tour of the isle is before we reach the upper buildings we pass the lichyard, or as some might call it, a barrow.  Considering that the bodies placed in this barrow must be brought up the steep hill to the lichyard, it's an interesting place for it to be.  

Whom is buried in this barrow?  Not just residents of the isle who have died, but the corpses washed up by the Trident as the EB explains "Too many corpses, these days." The Elder Brother sighed. "Our gravedigger knows no rest. Rivermen, westermen, northmen, all wash up here. Knights and knaves alike. We bury them side by side, Stark and Lannister, Blackwood and Bracken, Frey and Darry. That is the duty the river asks of us in return for all its gifts, and we do it as best we can. Sometimes we find a woman, though . . . or worse, a little child. Those are the cruelest gifts."  So the barrow is filled with the 'gifts of the river' and the Quiet Isle takes all.

The cave of the powerful healer/holy man is within a short distance of a barrow.  Hmmmmm.   I'm getting vibes of 'only death can pay for life' here.  Why? Well, let the Elder Brother explain "When I died in the Battle of the Trident. ...... but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned…..Instead I woke here, upon the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother told me I had washed up on the tide, naked as my name day. …. We are all born naked, so I suppose it was only fitting that I come into my second life the same way."

He tells a remarkable story of not only of the religious experience of being born again, but miraculous experience of being brought back to life when he should have died.  Similar to the EB are the broken men that come to the Quiet Isle by various means, some brought by Septon Meribald for instance, and as Brother Nortbert tells Bri "Many of our brothers came here to escape the horrors of the world, not to dwell upon them. Brother Clement was not the only wounded man amongst us. Some wounds do not show." Broken men who find healing and a new life, a second life of peace and piety.

So, where does the power of the Elder Brother come from?  The cave? The hill? The barrow? The Seven?  We know that he when he found the Hound the man was deathly ill from his wounds.  Although he doesn’t tell Bri that Sandor Clegane was saved, he does tell us that the Hound died in his arms.  In the arms of a magical healer the Hound died and Sandor was given his own second life.  

Powerful stuff.  The Elder Brother is a holy man of the Seven, a more recent belief system brought Westeros, whereas the greenseers get their power from an older more ancient local source.  Does the  Quiet Isle elevate the EB to his station with the barrow nearby providing the ‘death for life’ magic?  So far his ’born again’ magic hasn’t seemed to be as tainted and violent like R'Hllor nor is it known as death cult. 

Very interesting.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Is Mother Mole just a woods witch? Or is she a greenseer?

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One day, as they fled, a rider came galloping through the woods on a gaunt white horse, shouting that they all should make for the Milkwater, that the Weeper was gathering warriors to cross the Bridge of Skulls and take the Shadow Tower. Many followed him; more did not. Later, a dour warrior in fur and amber went from cookfire to cookfire, urging all the survivors to head north and take refuge in the valley of the Thenns. Why he thought they would be safe there when the Thenns themselves had fled the place Varamyr never learned, but hundreds followed him. Hundreds more went off with the woods witch who'd had a vision of a fleet of ships coming to carry the freefolk south. "We must seek the sea," cried Mother Mole, and her followers turned east.

Prologue, Dance

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Jon ignored him. "We have been questioning the wildlings we brought back from the grove. Several of them told an interesting tale, of a woods witch called Mother Mole."

"Mother Mole?" said Bowen Marsh. "An unlikely name."

"Supposedly she made her home in a burrow beneath a hollow tree. Whatever the truth of that, she had a vision of a fleet of ships arriving to carry the free folk to safety across the narrow sea. Thousands of those who fled the battle were desperate enough to believe her. Mother Mole has led them all to Hardhome, there to pray and await salvation from across the sea."

Othell Yarwyck scowled. "I'm no ranger, but … Hardhome is an un-holy place, it's said. Cursed. Even your uncle used to say as much, Lord Snow. Why would they go there?"

Jon had a map before him on the table. He turned it so they could see. “Hardhome sits on a sheltered bay and has a natural harbor deep enough for the biggest ships afloat. Wood and stone are plentiful near there. The waters teem with fish, and there are colonies of seals and sea cows close at hand."

"All that's true, I don't doubt," said Yarwyck, "but it's not a place I'd want to spend a night. You know the tale."

He did. Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

Six centuries had come and gone since that night, but Hardhome was still shunned. The wild had reclaimed the site, Jon had been told, but rangers claimed that the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood. "It is not the sort of refuge I'd chose either," Jon said, "but Mother Mole was heard to preach that the free folk would find salvation where once they found damnation."

Septon Cellador pursed his lips. "Salvation can be found only through the Seven. This witch has doomed them all."

"And saved the Wall, mayhaps," said Bowen Marsh. "These are enemies we speak of. Let them pray amongst the ruins, and if their gods send ships to carry them off to a better world, well and good. In this world I have no food to feed them."

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. "Cotter Pyke's galleys sail past Hardhome from time to time. He tells me there is no shelter there but the caves. The screaming caves, his men call them. Mother Mole and those who followed her will perish there, of cold and starvation. Hundreds of them. Thousands."

Jon VIII, Dance 39

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At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune.

Jon XII, Dance 58

And do those caves remind you of the foundation of Hightower and the Whispers?

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