Dragonslords, in Westeros, in the Dawn Age - How Azor Ahai Came to Westeros

[Bael's Bastard]

23 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

Has anyone ever seriously put together an argument that Jon or someone may be of Dayne blood?  Dawn being of a strange metal unlike any other, being called "Dawn" and the title of its wielder being called "Sword of the Morning" all scream that this is the blade that ended The Long Night.  The story is called a Song of Ice and Fire and Rhaegar specifically says that TPTWP has the song of ice and fire.  

With your argument being that the Dayne's are of similar stock as Valyrians, it stands to reason that someone of House Dayne who have the blood of the first men and whatever race empowered the Valyrians in their blood are a strong candidate for Azor Ahai/TPTWP/The Last hero. Add in Stark blood which appears to have a connection to the Night's King among other connections to the Others, and you have a compelling case.

I know everyone is sold on Jon or Dany, but neither have a commonly agreed connection to House Dayne and like you, I see the role of Dawn being much more prominent in the battles to come.  I've often wondered if maybe Arthur Dayne wasn't ordered by Rhaegar to impregnate Lyanna to bring about Azor Ahai.

Though not Daynes in name, all Targaryens descended from Maekar I Targaryen have Dayne ancestry through his wife Dyanna Dayne, including Daenerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's children.

[Greywater-Watch]

7 minutes ago, LmL said:

And I would also remind you of symbolism - a song can be battle or sex or actual song. It can simply represent harmony as a principle. Same for swords - they are swords, yes, but also penises and comets and dragons and a symbol of knowledge (the flaming sword in particular). And I do not think Martin is elevating any one of these ideas above another - they are are dancing together, as I can see.  

I know one can get lost in symbolism - but what if it is all as simple a that - just a song? If I remeber correctly, in Daenerys' Vision in the House of the Undying, Rhaegar speaks of the Song of Ice and Fire which would belong to his son Aegon, and then Rhaegar starts to play his silver harp.

Wouldn't it be a nice twist à là GRRM to get us discuss and ponder on symbols, and it turns out to be just what it is - a song?

[LmL]

33 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Have to say I loved the episode as always.  

TY, TY...

33 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Even in the recent past (compared to the main story) there are instances of history almost repeating itself, but with a little twist.  To look for any clues in relation to the forthcoming Long Night, it makes sense to look at the last one - and the connection to the Great Empire is intriguing.  

Endless iterations of similar ideas... a real house of mirrors. That is why I love the mythical astronomy framework, because it works as an overarching frame for all these repeating symbols and archetypes. it organizes them and puts them in a context that makes sense. The events in the sky were replayed on the ground, and ever since then, they have continued to replay and replay, each time a bit different. I think there is a whole discussion to have about what all Martin is saying by doing so, but the fact that these parallels exist ll through the books is undeniable. 

33 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Of course, the histories available in Westeros were written by the maesters; they were written by men who have closed their eyes to magic and to anything that cannot be explained rationally.  As a result of this we have been left with a history that is incomplete and inaccurate.  As for Azor Ahai, this opened up a lot more lines of consideration for me on how the Great Empire could be linked to Valyria - and whether the Prince that was Promised is potentially a descendant from a Great Empire family that married into a Valyrian family (Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised are definitely linked - it is just that every time I have it figured out, I identify multiple holes in my argument!).    

Yes, and TWOIAF basically suggests that very thing - that dragonlords originated in Asshai and taught their arts to the Valyrians. Essentially, one thing this theory does is say "yes, that happened." 

33 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I have so many thoughts regarding this - and really need to go back and re-watch to make sense of some of them!

Trust me, we had to go over this material a bajillion times to get it into its final form, so don't feel bad. There's a lot to digest here. 

33 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I was particularly interested in the idea that the Dayne family are descendants of this pre-Valyrian society, and it would make the marriage of Maekar and Dyanna Dayne more significant than merely a political move related to the integration of Dorne into the realm.  It goes back to an idea that I got on board with ages ago relating to the extent to which magical blood is transmitted through the female line - Bloodraven gets his skinchanging skills through his mother's Blackwood line; the Starks appear to have developed a habit of removing rival kings and then marrying a daughter of the now-removed king into the Stark line and thereby ensuring that any magical abilities (such as warging) were incorporated into their gene pool.  The incestuous marriages of Dyanna's grandchildren and great-grandchildren has ensured that the blood Daenerys (and Jon) inherit is not as diluted as it might be.  Just like Betha's Blackwood blood is not diluted as much as it might have been (completely unrelated, but I do wonder how significant it might be that two of Jon's great-great grandmothers were Blackwood women).  The Dayne connection also got me back to thinking about the Dayne words - the fact that they are apparently considered too spoilery - and precisely how the Sword of the Morning is chosen (and if that differs from the process of choosing a Sword of the Evening).  

Yes, that marriage between Dyanna Dayne and Maekar Targaryen looks more than happenstance, doesn't it? In fact, if the Daynes do descend from the GEotD, you could even speculate that this infusion of "old school" blood into the Targ line helped to create a person who could again wake dragons. You could also speculate (as I have) that the dragon bond is really a mutation of the skinchanger bond in some sense, and that the infusion of Blackwood blood from Black Betha one generation later was the thing which helped Dany wake the dragons. Either way, Blackwood and Dayne blood are like, ya know, pretty significant, so that fact that Dany and Jon both have those bloodlines... well, I tend to think it might not be coincidence, you know? 

Thanks for reminding me that Jon has a Blackwood in his Stark line as well. 

As for the SOTM vs the SOTE, it's basically a story of two sides to a coin. The same family produced the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, and House Dayne gives us sword of the morning people and sword of the evening or Darkstar people. I don' think the SOTE is an official thing - it's just a nickname and a symbolic idea (Darkstar plays into this idea even though he is not called a SOTE). But it serves to show us that morning and evening swords may be related to each other, you know? The Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai may well have been the first "Sword of the Evening," since he brought the Long Night and has (according to me) a black sword. But he also may have given rise to House Dayne, and I think there are many clues that the AA / LH relationship was that of a father and son, where the son atones for the evils of his father or something. Brienne has morningstar / Venus symbolism, but her father was the Evenstar. I think it's just a cycle of some kind. 

33 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

The Hightowers become more and more interesting every time I think of them, and I wonder how deliberate it is that the truly intriguing families - like the Daynes and Hightowers - are not the leading family in their region.  

Well, the Hightowers do have major pull, and might have more power than we know, since both the Citadel and the Starry Sept are in Oldtown. The Faith and the masters have done more to shape Westerosi society than anything else, and both have been centered in Oldtown for millennia. And you have to watch out for the Starry Wisdom Church, which survives to this day in port cities around the world. I suspect they may have infiltrated the masters and the Faith, one or both... 

In any case yeah, the Hightowers seem like they are about to play amore important role, and Oldtown in general, so I have high hopes for the next book as far as learning more about those things. Can we get a scene in the fused black stone fortress? Some Oldtown history Sam finds in the citadel? Something? 

Also interesting is the Isle of Ravens. That place is loaded with interesting symbolism. 

[LmL]

15 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Though not Daynes in name, all Targaryens descended from Maekar I Targaryen have Dayne ancestry through his wife Dyanna Dayne, including Daenerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's children.

Yessir! We mentioned this in the episode. Definitely something to take note of. I commented more about this a comment or two above this one, so check that out too.

[LmL]

4 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I know one can get lost in symbolism - but what if it is all as simple a that - just a song? If I remeber correctly, in Daenerys' Vision in the House of the Undying, Rhaegar speaks of the Song of Ice and Fire which would belong to his son Aegon, and then Rhaegar starts to play his silver harp.

Wouldn't it be a nice twist à là GRRM to get us discuss and ponder on symbols, and it turns out to be just what it is - a song?

No, not at all, it would go against everything Martin is doing in the novels. Not to be harsh, but I could not disagree more strongly. Martin's use of symbolism and metaphor and his integration of classic themes from world myth and literature is on a master level - it's not a big wank off to confuse people. It's high art, the highest sort of art. 

[Isobel Harper]

Regarding the Sword of the Evening, is it possible that House Tarth is descended from an AA/LB figure as well? 

Also, cute little real world parallel I just noticed.  Westeros is a parallel to our own medieval Britain.  The Danes migrated from another land to inhabit and rule England.  The Daynes appear to have done this as well in a similar fashion, if the theory that they are descended from the GSE is correct, having migrated from Essos to Westeros, like the Danes migrated from Denmark/Germany to Britain.  

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Regarding the Sword of the Evening, is it possible that House Tarth is descended from an AA/LB figure as well? 

Also, cute little real world parallel I just noticed.  Westeros is a parallel to our own medieval Britain.  The Danes migrated from another land to inhabit and rule England.  The Daynes appear to have done this as well in a similar fashion, if the theory that they are descended from the GSE is correct, having migrated from Essos to Westeros, like the Danes migrated from Denmark/Germany to Britain.  

Haha, my mind just created the person "Hamlet the Dayne" who kills his uncle with a blazing white sword. LoL. 

I tend to think Tarth's symbolism is just a reflection of therein theme, but I could be wrong. Gallon seems like another version of the basic AA myth - he gets a magic sword from a celestial maiden. She lost her heart to Galladon, which sounds like our moon maiden giving up her heart - the heart of a fallen star. To make a magic sword. 

Thing is, when we talk about Grey King and Azor Ahai being "the same person," what we really mean that some part of these two myths refer to a common origin story or common set of events... then over time and migration and cultural shift, the myths become variants. It's hard to say exactly which myths have a more literal truth or which are merely echoes. And it's not even a clean line of distinction either, so basically I try to stay open-minded until I find very solid elements to grab on to. The tales of the anent Ironborn having magical black weapons, for example, point to a real truth, as does their seafaring skill which was so unlike the other FM. The fused stone fortress, the sword Dawn, these things are tangible pieces of evidence to suggest the connection to Azor Ahai might have been literal. We don't have Galladon's sword or any fused stone on Tarth, though, so that may just be an example of echoed symbolism.

I tend to think Brienne will play an important role, however, so that part is not just symbol.  

[WalkinDude]

35 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yessir! We mentioned this in the episode. Definitely something to take note of. I commented more about this a comment or two above this one, so check that out too.

My only concern with going back to Maekar to build a connection to the Dayne's is that it opens the flood gates to almost everyone.  In short, it removes the importance of "Kings Blood", as every commoner or bastard can tie their lineage to some noble house who at one point married or bred with another noble house.  I'm sure half the people in the North can trace their lineage to a Stark at some point during the past 8k years.  And the other half can connect to the other great houses and their claims to Bran the Builder or some other legendary First man.

 

Not to mention that TPTWP prophecy links it's heritage to the children of Aerys and Rhaella, not just some random Targaryen or Valyrian.  If it was just blood, why isn't BloodRaven the hero of the story.  He has the same noble Ice and Fire blood as Jon allegedly has.

[LmL]

21 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

My only concern with going back to Maekar to build a connection to the Dayne's is that it opens the flood gates to almost everyone.  In short, it removes the importance of "Kings Blood", as every commoner or bastard can tie their lineage to some noble house who at one point married or bred with another noble house.  I'm sure half the people in the North can trace their lineage to a Stark at some point during the past 8k years.  And the other half can connect to the other great houses and their claims to Bran the Builder or some other legendary First man.

 

Not to mention that TPTWP prophecy links it's heritage to the children of Aerys and Rhaella, not just some random Targaryen or Valyrian.  If it was just blood, why isn't BloodRaven the hero of the story.  He has the same noble Ice and Fire blood as Jon allegedly has.

The reason why it might be more solid to point to Dyanna Dayne and Betha Blackwood is that following Egg's marriage to black Betha, there were three generations of brother-sister incest... so Dany and Rhaegar are as much as 25% Dayne and even more Blackwood.  Egg was half Dayne, then married a Blackwood, then their children fucked each other for three generations.

[Meera of Tarth]

thanks for the call

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

The reason why it might be more solid to point to Dyanna Dayne and Betha Blackwood is that following Egg's marriage to black Betha, there were three generations of brother-sister incest... so Dany and Rhaegar are as much as 25% Dayne and even more Blackwood.  Egg was half Dayne, then married a Blackwood, then their children fucked each other for three generations.

I haven't had a chance to take a look at your video yet, but the revelation that Blackwood and Dayne ancestry were the last two non-Targaryen ancestries introduced into the Targaryen royal line stuck out big time, on top of the known Rhoynar ancestry introduced just prior to those.

However long Starks, Daynes, and Blackwoods have been around spreading their seed in Westeros, the Rhoynar only arrived in the last thousand years, and the Targaryens in the last three hundred. That produces a much smaller window for these ancestries to combine and interact. As far as I recall, we are not aware of any previous examples of those ancestries being directly introduced into the Targaryen royal line. They occurred almost like dominoes one after the other in the last one hundred and thirty years.

Over the last one hundred and thirty years, the Targaryen royal line had a direct influx of Rhoynar, Dayne, and Blackwood ancestry in successive generations, followed by two strait generations of brother-sister unions in Jaehaerys II/Shaera and Aerys II/Rhaella.

And a certain bastard of House Stark also has a Blackwood g-g-grandmother possibly contemporary with Egg's wife. He would, if the theory is confirmed, be perhaps the first ever product of a Targaryen and a Stark, with Blackwood ancestry on both sides, and recent Dayne and Rhoynar ancestry paternally.

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

My only concern with going back to Maekar to build a connection to the Dayne's is that it opens the flood gates to almost everyone.  In short, it removes the importance of "Kings Blood", as every commoner or bastard can tie their lineage to some noble house who at one point married or bred with another noble house.  I'm sure half the people in the North can trace their lineage to a Stark at some point during the past 8k years.  And the other half can connect to the other great houses and their claims to Bran the Builder or some other legendary First man.

 

Not to mention that TPTWP prophecy links it's heritage to the children of Aerys and Rhaella, not just some random Targaryen or Valyrian.  If it was just blood, why isn't BloodRaven the hero of the story.  He has the same noble Ice and Fire blood as Jon allegedly has.

Bloodraven presumably has some Stark ancestry somewhere in there, but that is not necessarily the same as being the son of an actual Targaryen and an actual Stark, not to mention the other ancestries and factors not present in Bloodraven's case.

If R+L=J,

* Jon is perhaps the first and only issue ever of a direct Targaryen/Stark union
* Jon has Blackwood ancestry from both father (Betha) and mother (Melantha)
* Jon has Dayne ancestry from his father
* Jon has Rhoynar and Martell ancestry from his father
* Jon has two generations of brother-sister unions after the additions of Blackwood/Dayne/Rhoynar ancestries to his father's line and before the addition of Stark ancestry to the mix through his mother

The Blackwood/Dayne/Rhoynar ancestries came into the royal line through the unions of Bloodraven's legitimate elder brother Daeron II and his descendants, so he does not have any of those (or the direct Stark ancestry Jon has), just the Blackwood ancestry through his own mother.

Perhaps someone else has a similar situation, but I can't think of one (other than Dany, save Stark ancestry), and Bloodraven definitely isn't one.

[LmL]

@Bael's Bastard, we are on the same page. Now watch the video and see why I think the Dayne blood might be extra special.

[Bael's Bastard]

19 hours ago, LmL said:

@Bael's Bastard, we are on the same page. Now watch the video and see why I think the Dayne blood might be extra special.

I opened the video up and see that it is nearly 3 hours long. Is there any section of it that can be viewed in isolation, or must the whole thing be watched? I would like to check it out, just don't have a block of time like that right now. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I opened the video up and see that it is nearly 3 hours long. Is there any section of it that can be viewed in isolation, or must the whole thing be watched? I would like to check it out, just don't have a block of time like that right now. 

Nope it's three hours of tightly packed information which builds upon a central premise and envelops it through multiple lines of information. The TLDR is the paragraph I wrote at the top; other than that you gotta watch it all. It's simply the nature of the idea we are dealing with - this isn't some crackpot set of speculative ideas that can be summed up in a short post. We've attempted to use multiple lines of inquiry to support the hypothesis as best as possible. And honestly we had to cut a lot of stuff. We did however break it up into sections which are marked on the video timeline, so you can simply bite off a section at a time and see if it holds your interest. You can listen to it as a podcast and take it on the go with you if you prefer, just look up Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire on iTunes.  

[Bael's Bastard]

11 minutes ago, LmL said:

Nope it's three hours of tightly packed information which builds upon a central premise and envelops it through multiple lines of information. The TLDR is the paragraph I wrote at the top; other than that you gotta watch it all. It's simply the nature of the idea we are dealing with - this isn't some crackpot set of speculative ideas that can be summed up in a short post. We've attempted to use multiple lines of inquiry to support the hypothesis as best as possible. And honestly we had to cut a lot of stuff. We did however break it up into sections which are marked on the video timeline, so you can simply bite off a section at a time and see if it holds your interest. You can listen to it as a podcast and take it on the go with you if you prefer, just look up Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire on iTunes.  

I was able to get some time, and about an hour and a half in. Haven't come across the Dayne stuff yet, but so far I think it is very well done, great job.

[Venus414]

Dani is Asharas daughter.  I keep saying! 

[LordImp]

First of all good work @LmL . My question is , do you think the ancient dragonlords where ordinary humans or another humanoid race that is now extinct ?

[BlueHue]

Hello, first post ever on this forum and jumping in the deep end! I'm no where near up to speed compared to most here on this topic so have no great insight to add. I just have a question about something that stands out to me reading this thread. Jon Snow has the Stark look, yet is likely also of very notable Targaryen descent (and possible lineage going back to GEotD through the Dayne line as well). We know Targaryen traits are distinct and strongly passed on through generations (noting incest aids that and is not in play here). We've also seen mentioned in places that House Stark itself may even have had it's origins, at least in part, from the LH or a Dayne after the Long Night (I've no idea how credible this idea is), yet the Stark 'look' lives on strong - ok except for River Run Rob. Is it simply Jon just happened to get the Stark look and this neatly fitted in with the need of concealing is real identity in ASOIAF for as long as possible, or is there something more in this idea that distinctive Stark traits come through, even in a match with Targaryen (and Dayne) blood that tells us something about the who the Starks are and how they might fit into the larger story. Sorry almost a rhetorical question but interested in hearing the thoughts of others if there is something more to it than just concealing Jon's identity from the story tellers point of view.

ps I believe R+L=J and I am not suggesting that he has different parent/s.

[Bael's Bastard]

BlueHue,

That Jon's Stark looks stick out more (at least to the characters thus far) is actually in line with other examples and possible examples of the first issue between Targaryens with typical Targaryen looks and non-Targaryens with dark hair.

* Rhaegar Targaryen + Elia Martell (dark hair) = Princess Rhaenys favors her Dornish mother per an SSM by Martin

* Aegon V Targaryen + Betha Blackwood (dark hair) = Prince Duncan is portrayed with dark hair in TWOIAF picture (not sure whether this is based on Martin's direction, or the artist's interpretation)

* Daeron II Targaryen + Mariah Martell (dark hair) = Prince Baelor "Breakspear" favors his Dornish mother

* Aegon IV Targaryen + Barba Bracken (dark hair) = Aegon "Bittersteel" Rivera favors his Bracken mother 

Bloodraven appears to be an exception, though he still didn't necessarily favor his Targaryen father so much as he was completely albino.

That is not to say that these issue did not have any Targaryen traits, just that they seemed to end up with their mothers' dark hair. But a number of them still had some variation of the typical Targaryen purple or blue eyes, and no doubt had other things about their faces or bodies which were more typical of Targaryens than of their non-Targaryen parent.

In the case of Jon, his eyes are described in Bran's first chapter in AGOT as "a grey so dark they seemed almost black." The description of Young Griff's/Aegon's eyes in one of Tyrion's chapters in ADWD has always reminded me of this: "Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple."

Perhaps Jon does have Targaryen features, but nobody really picks up on them because the hair and eye color, and how the hair color may make the eyes appear, and because he has been hidden away from people most likely to pick up on it? Perhaps, even though he does not appear to have a typical shade of Targaryen eye color, the dark nature of his eye color comes from his Targaryen ancestry?