Dragonslords, in Westeros, in the Dawn Age - How Azor Ahai Came to Westeros

[cgrav]

On October 12, 2016 at 11:08 AM, WalkinDude said:

My only concern with going back to Maekar to build a connection to the Dayne's is that it opens the flood gates to almost everyone.  In short, it removes the importance of "Kings Blood", as every commoner or bastard can tie their lineage to some noble house who at one point married or bred with another noble house.  

I suspect that "Kings Blood" refers to more than Targaryen patrilineal ancestry. 

First, in this fictional world, "blood" is more than lineage. We see that certain families have stubborn physical traits not erased by the addition of other genes. Blood relation is determined at least as much by familial traits as actual lineage. Therefore a person might have some modicum of Targ heritage, but none of the defining traits that would give them "kings blood".

Second, the Targaryens were only kings for 300 years, and only in Westeros, while the magic concerning kings' blood goes back to ancient Asshai. So who was kingly there? We don't know. But if we assume that "kings blood" was taken literally by the ancient shadowbinders, then it must refer to anyone who descends directly from the rulers of the Empire of the Dawn.

The kingly Targs share appearance with the Daynes, and so likely have a common ancestor, meaning they both could be kings blood. But Jon Snow has kings blood, too, and I would postulate that it's on both sides, as he descends from the Kings of Winter through Lyanna. And if we go with the theory that the Last Hero of Westeros is Azor Ahai or his son, then it's possible that he begat a lineage eventually becoming or intersecting the Starks. Jon therefore is represents a restoration of the line of Kings that began in Asshai (very parallel to Tolkien's Aragorn/Arwen, who are both elf kin).

The question mark is Davos, of course, but I wonder if there isn't something yet to be revealed about him. 

So I'd contend that while "kings blood" includes a lot of people, it is still confined to those who are descended from the Emporer of the Dawn, and only when evidenced by possession of an enduring family trait.

[WalkinDude]

52 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I suspect that "Kings Blood" refers to more than Targaryen patrilineal ancestry. 

First, in this fictional world, "blood" is more than lineage. We see that certain families have stubborn physical traits not erased by the addition of other genes. Blood relation is determined at least as much by familial traits as actual lineage. Therefore a person might have some modicum of Targ heritage, but none of the defining traits that would give them "kings blood".

Second, the Targaryens were only kings for 300 years, and only in Westeros, while the magic concerning kings' blood goes back to ancient Asshai. So who was kingly there? We don't know. But if we assume that "kings blood" was taken literally by the ancient shadowbinders, then it must refer to anyone who descends directly from the rulers of the Empire of the Dawn.

The kingly Targs share appearance with the Daynes, and so likely have a common ancestor, meaning they both could be kings blood. But Jon Snow has kings blood, too, and I would postulate that it's on both sides, as he descends from the Kings of Winter through Lyanna. And if we go with the theory that the Last Hero of Westeros is Azor Ahai or his son, then it's possible that he begat a lineage eventually becoming or intersecting the Starks. Jon therefore is represents a restoration of the line of Kings that began in Asshai (very parallel to Tolkien's Aragorn/Arwen, who are both elf kin).

The question mark is Davos, of course, but I wonder if there isn't something yet to be revealed about him. 

So I'd contend that while "kings blood" includes a lot of people, it is still confined to those who are descended from the Emporer of the Dawn, and only when evidenced by possession of an enduring family trait.

Then how do you explain her interest in Mance?  He's someone of pure northern blood, born beyond the wall with no known Andal blood.  He wasn't elevated to his position on blood or birthright, but because the Free Folk wanted to follow him.  Melisandre is interested in his blood.  If he has the blood of the Empire of Dawn in his veins, so should nearly every other person North of the wall.

[cgrav]

11 minutes ago, WalkinDude said:

Then how do you explain her interest in Mance?  He's someone of pure northern blood, born beyond the wall with no known Andal blood.  He wasn't elevated to his position on blood or birthright, but because the Free Folk wanted to follow him.  Melisandre is interested in his blood.  If he has the blood of the Empire of Dawn in his veins, so should nearly every other person North of the wall.

Well, she's not so interested in his blood as to actually offer it to R'hllor, instead offering someone who is symbolically already dead (covered with bones). The meat of that scene is the merging of the weirwood sticks with the fire, representing two aspects of the same divine knowledge.

Plus Mel routinely burns people who are not kingly, which I have to guess is a practice carried over from the Long Night.

[BlueHue]

20 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

BlueHue,

That Jon's Stark looks stick out more (at least to the characters thus far) is actually in line with other examples and possible examples of the first issue between Targaryens with typical Targaryen looks and non-Targaryens with dark hair.

* Rhaegar Targaryen + Elia Martell (dark hair) = Princess Rhaenys favors her Dornish mother per an SSM by Martin

* Aegon V Targaryen + Betha Blackwood (dark hair) = Prince Duncan is portrayed with dark hair in TWOIAF picture (not sure whether this is based on Martin's direction, or the artist's interpretation)

* Daeron II Targaryen + Mariah Martell (dark hair) = Prince Baelor "Breakspear" favors his Dornish mother

* Aegon IV Targaryen + Barba Bracken (dark hair) = Aegon "Bittersteel" Rivera favors his Bracken mother 

Bloodraven appears to be an exception, though he still didn't necessarily favor his Targaryen father so much as he was completely albino.

That is not to say that these issue did not have any Targaryen traits, just that they seemed to end up with their mothers' dark hair. But a number of them still had some variation of the typical Targaryen purple or blue eyes, and no doubt had other things about their faces or bodies which were more typical of Targaryens than of their non-Targaryen parent.

In the case of Jon, his eyes are described in Bran's first chapter in AGOT as "a grey so dark they seemed almost black." The description of Young Griff's/Aegon's eyes in one of Tyrion's chapters in ADWD has always reminded me of this: "Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple."

Perhaps Jon does have Targaryen features, but nobody really picks up on them because the hair and eye color, and how the hair color may make the eyes appear, and because he has been hidden away from people most likely to pick up on it? Perhaps, even though he does not appear to have a typical shade of Targaryen eye color, the dark nature of his eye color comes from his Targaryen ancestry?

Thanks Bael's Bastard. Much to learn about the History and Westeros and mythology of ASOIAF, looking forward to reading and learning from threads such of this in future! Keeps my (partly) satisfied waiting for The Winds of Winter and gives the story a whole new meaning.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Thanks for the tag @LmL!

Just finished watching (I watched it in 3 chunks over a couple of days).  Really interesting stuff and also very funny in parts. I am entertained!  

I hadn't considered the Hightowers much - probably because I'd spent so much time obsessing and theorising about the Daynes!  Now you come to mention it, they are very similar to the Daynes from a narrative point of view - plenty is said about them without actually revealing much.

Nobody seems to know how far it is if you sail west from Westeros before you reach the Far East of Essos and I haven't seen any confirmed tales of anyone achieving this journey this by ship, but maybe this is because the land to the far far East has been uninhabitable since the end of the GEOTD.  Maybe that journey was possible for some GEODawnians to travel by dragon.  It seems they went in various directions in the world setting up new civilisations, so some could have tried that.  It would make sense why they landed on the west coast (to go West you must go East).

Gemstone eyes also made me think of Brienne's sapphire eyes.  Do you think the Tarths could be from GEODawnian stock?  Same with Symeon Star-Eyes, although I know they weren't his real eyes  

 

[Lord Martin]

YO!!! This was one of the best ASOIAF Podcast episodes EVER!  @LmL you and Aziz did amazing work here.  And I'm very convinced the EOTD has to be involved in the manner suggested here.  But of course with every theory, it raises as many questions as it answers.  So I'll dive right in, but should probably post some of these on the HoW page too for the next Podcast.

1) Do you think the conveyor belt of plausibility ran from Essos across the Sunset sea via sea routes or via land routes over the arm of Dorne before it broke?  I suppose it doesn't matter and both are likely, but I get the sense you suggest the "First Men" as we know them came over the arm whereas the GEOTD may have come via the sea?  

2) Very interesting point about Casterly Rock being more advanced than "First Men" technology.  It also occurs to me that the prominence of a "Rock" located in the westernmost part of the known world must have some significance for your mythical astronomy.  If I put on my tinfoil hat I almost have to wonder if "The Rock" could be the stone that the BloodStone Emperor came to worship?  Sure, he'd have to travel halfway across the world to worship it, but it now seems quite likely he might have come to Westeros.  Heck, if the Iron Islands were once part of mainland Westeros, "The Rock" falling to earth could explain why they broke off no?   This really gives us some cool potential for our earlier discussions on Jaime huh?

3)  If I follow your thinking, from you Podcasts, the concept of someone being "reborn" could refer to the person being reanimated (Or undead) but also someone's son.  As I understand it, this is the genesis of your thought on The Last Hero as the son of AA.  How then does BtB fit in?  Perhaps a son of the Bloodstone Emperor?  

4)  Speaking of BtB, I think many of us have long assumed that the Battle for the Dawn took place either at Winterfell or the Wall.  But now it seems like it may have taken place at Battle Isle.  This is sort of the Gettysburg of the War against the Others, it wasn't the last battle, but it was where the tide turned.  Perhaps Winterfell would be Appomattox Courthouse, to torture the analogy further.  The Wall would then be sort of the memorial built to Man's victory over the Others.  This could make the NK tale sort of another Blood Betrayal, another instance of history repeating.  

5)  This makes Euron's attack on Old Town all the more significant no?  Sort of an inverted version of history, rather than being where mankind makes its stand, its where the breach opens up.

I've got tons more thoughts, but they only get more disjointed as we go.  This was truly excellent stuff.  You are really making the wait for Winds more bearable and I'll be looking at it in a whole other light when it comes out.

Kudos to you and the History of Westeros crew!

 

 

[Amris]

I hope you don't hate me for this and I don't want to be mean or anything.

You obviously have put a lot of effort into this, LmL but a little real criticism might bring you further.

The problem I have with the YouTube vid is not the content but the presentation. I am sure that the content is awesome (I judge this by your acticles here on the forums, some of which I have read). However I could not watch the video. The presentation put me off. I tried but had to give up after 14 mins or so. It is too slow-moving for me. Not enough information per time unit. Too slow coming to the point. It is like watching cocktail smalltalk. Also you guys should stop making these erratic head and eye movements. Just be natural.

Again: I am sure there is awesome content in there. But please - condense more and speak more naturally.

Sorry for this.

 

[LmL]

6 hours ago, Amris said:

I hope you don't hate me for this and I don't want to be mean or anything.

You obviously have put a lot of effort into this, LmL but a little real criticism might bring you further.

The problem I have with the YouTube vid is not the content but the presentation. I am sure that the content is awesome (I judge this by your acticles here on the forums, some of which I have read). However I could not watch the video. The presentation put me off. I tried but had to give up after 14 mins or so. It is too slow-moving for me. Not enough information per time unit. Too slow coming to the point. It is like watching cocktail smalltalk. Also you guys should stop making these erratic head and eye movements. Just be natural.

Again: I am sure there is awesome content in there. But please - condense more and speak more naturally.

Sorry for this.

 

Well that's funny, in the last two responses I got the polar extremes in feedback. So be it! I do actually appreciate your feedback @Amris, it's better than not responding at all. I do understand what you mean about the pacing; it's simply the nature of History of Westeros's style of presentation though. Their podcast has a wide distribution and I think they are trying to keep their content accessible to people who haven't read the books twenty times like many of us on the forum here. By contrast, my essays / podcasts are so dense that most people read them more than once, and I don't worry too much about making my material accessible to people who aren't way deep in the books, because of the nature of my writing, which is hopelessly esoteric for the most part. I would suggest perhaps putting it on while you are doing some chores or whatever so it doesn't feel so much like watching paint dry, lol.

As for the on-camera presence, it's tricky and I'm definitely not polished in that regard. I know that the first time I went on camera (for history of Westeros's House Dayne part 2) I watched back and thought I looked very stiff - I didn't move much at all and wasn't really trying to use my face to convey emotion. I think being more animated is better than being a statue, but I am sure I am still working on how to do it just right. It's also a bit tricky to read the script and still worry about all that other stuff and also concentrate on what you're actually saying so it doesn't sound like you are reading... It's tricky. It's much easier to do my normal audio podcast, because I can do as many takes as I want and focus only on the inflection of the words. 

Anyways cheers, thanks for the feedback, I hope you have another occasion to try to get into it. If not, no worries. 

[Wrl6199]

There are a lot of bastards walking around I'm sure especially by Robert. It seems kindle funny actually that he has all these bastards but none with Cersei.

[LmL]

13 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

YO!!! This was one of the best ASOIAF Podcast episodes EVER!  @LmL you and Aziz did amazing work here.

Woo! Glad you liked it @Lord Martin. I was thinking of your "The Starks are not First Men" theory a couple of times in this process. That was just too much of a bomb to drop so I didn't mention it, but most people think the Last Hero was a Stark - he kind of has to be, right? - and if the Last Hero has a connection to Azor Ahai, a blood connection... Then there you have it. It's really seeming more and more like the Starks and Daynes might have an ancient connection. There are a lot of potential parallels involving brothers, many times brothers fighting with each other, so I have to wonder if there was mutiple children of Azor Ahai. The Azor Ahai archetype seems to span so many other character types, like the storm lord and the horned lord and the King of Winter and the OG greenseer, they can't all be one person right? 

13 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

 And I'm very convinced the EOTD has to be involved in the manner suggested here.  But of course with every theory, it raises as many questions as it answers.  So I'll dive right in, but should probably post some of these on the HoW page too for the next Podcast.

No need; anything you say here can and will be used for fodder in our Q&A follow up. We have a doc where we are pasting topics and questions for then. And yes, that's what's great about this whole thing - it simultaneously answers deep mysteries of the books while raising a whole host of new questions. If you remember back to when Durran and I were first putting out of theories about the Great Empire last year, we did inspire others to write about the gemstone emperors, and of course TWOAIF brought a general atmosphere of interest and speculation into he backstory which we were a part of. Your Starks are not First Men came out around that time too - it was kind of the hey day for 10,000 year old speculation, wasn't it?

13 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

1) Do you think the conveyor belt of plausibility ran from Essos across the Sunset sea via sea routes or via land routes over the arm of Dorne before it broke?  I suppose it doesn't matter and both are likely, but I get the sense you suggest the "First Men" as we know them came over the arm whereas the GEOTD may have come via the sea?  

That point has been raised a couple of times now in response to this video, and I have to say I am open-minded. I am quite sure they must have come by sea, but as to which route... There is enough tantalizing evidence of an "east from Asshai" passage to Westeros via the Sunset Sea, including the Farwynds and other Ironborn legends, that we must entertain this possibility. Most people who have put thought into this have determined that Asshai seems to be roughly halfway around the globe from Westeros, so it's probably pretty close to a wash as far as which way is longer. The west from Asshai route is probably easier, since it provides places to stop along the way. One thing I did point out in my Grey King episode is that if Nagga's bones are in fact a weirwood boat, it's a damn huge boat, as Victarion describes the ribs as being taller than a dromond's mast. That could be a long-distance travel kind of boat, certainly. The landing spots of the GEotD all seem to be clustered on the southwest coast, so that could of course argue in favor of the east from Asshai route.

On the other hand, you can rationalize their landing in the southwest for a west from Asshai route because the Arm of Dorne might not have been broken, and there is no good harbor on the south coast of Dorne. The first good place to land might have been Starfall, and after that, you come to Whispering Sound. 

If they did come west from Asshai through the Summer Sea, they must not have established any colonies until they got to Westeros, and the obvious reason for that is that they found something in Westeros that they could t find elsewhere, which would probably have something to do with the children and the weirwoods and magic, I would think. Of course we also have the oily stone at Yeen and the Basilisks which suggests some kind of ancient builders, perhaps those are connected to the GEotD also.

13 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

2) Very interesting point about Casterly Rock being more advanced than "First Men" technology.  It also occurs to me that the prominence of a "Rock" located in the westernmost part of the known world must have some significance for your mythical astronomy.  If I put on my tinfoil hat I almost have to wonder if "The Rock" could be the stone that the BloodStone Emperor came to worship?  Sure, he'd have to travel halfway across the world to worship it, but it now seems quite likely he might have come to Westeros.  Heck, if the Iron Islands were once part of mainland Westeros, "The Rock" falling to earth could explain why they broke off no?   This really gives us some cool potential for our earlier discussions on Jaime huh?

I think the idea of the Rock is more symbolic - it's too big to be a meteor, and wouldn't be filled with gold if it was. It does serve that purpose symbolically though. Lann is a solar fellow who slips inside the rock and fills it with his golden seed - sounds a bit like the sun impregnating the moon with dragon seed. Lann also fills the Rock with demons - or at least, he makes the people think it's haunted, which adds to the parallel with the moon. I have been avoiding the Lannisters for the most part in my series because their symbolism is unique and has to be approached as a topic in its own right, but I do have more to say about them. 

13 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

3)  If I follow your thinking, from you Podcasts, the concept of someone being "reborn" could refer to the person being reanimated (Or undead) but also someone's son.  As I understand it, this is the genesis of your thought on The Last Hero as the son of AA.  How then does BtB fit in?  Perhaps a son of the Bloodstone Emperor?  

Yeah, I brought this up earlier in my response, perhaps a son of AA or the BSE or both if those are the same person. It seems like the genes of the GEotD mixing with First Men / greenseer blood is the important thing, and I suspect the Daynes and Starks might share some kind of origin story here. Then we also have the story of Brandon the Bloody Blade being a son of Garth the Green to consider. It's hard to say at the moment, but I do think the Starks are connected to AA's bloodline, because the King of Winter has too many AA symbols to ignore. 

13 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

4)  Speaking of BtB, I think many of us have long assumed that the Battle for the Dawn took place either at Winterfell or the Wall.  But now it seems like it may have taken place at Battle Isle.  This is sort of the Gettysburg of the War against the Others, it wasn't the last battle, but it was where the tide turned.  Perhaps Winterfell would be Appomattox Courthouse, to torture the analogy further.  The Wall would then be sort of the memorial built to Man's victory over the Others.  This could make the NK tale sort of another Blood Betrayal, another instance of history repeating.  

I think there was probably multiple battles in the War for the Dawn. Oldtown would have been where the evil AA invaded - I suspect he was confronted and stopped here, but that his sword was taken and repurposed - or perhaps this is where AA died and became resurrected, thereby changing his purpose. We have these two stories we are trying to make meet up - the dragonlords coming to Westeros at Oldtown where there was a battle and talk of Hightowers defeating the dragons, and then we have the Last Hero journeying north to confront the Others somewhere around Winterfell or having to do with WF in some way. We need the sword of AA to go north somehow, if not the man himself or his son. The Tower of Joy might be a plot echo here - the King of Winter comes south, brings a white sword to Starfall and takes an Azor Ahai reborn baby back to the north with him. The original version could have been the King of Winter exchanging his white sword named ice for a black one, then bringing it back north to fight Others with. Ned had to defeat a Dayne to accomplish this, maybe that's an echo of the King of Winter confronting the original AA from the east and beating his ass and taking his sword. Remember, Jon is Lightbringer. 

13 hours ago, Lord Martin said:

5)  This makes Euron's attack on Old Town all the more significant no?  Sort of an inverted version of history, rather than being where mankind makes its stand, its where the breach opens up.

I've got tons more thoughts, but they only get more disjointed as we go.  This was truly excellent stuff.  You are really making the wait for Winds more bearable and I'll be looking at it in a whole other light when it comes out.

Kudos to you and the History of Westeros crew!

 

 

No I think it's more of a direct parallel - Azor Ahai as a pirate lord from Asshai who invades Westeros at Oldtown and along the southwest coast. The Red Kraken Dalton Greyjoy did the same, and he had the V steel sword called Nightfall with a moonstone pommel. Samwell Dayne the Starfire sacked and burned Oldtown. These are all potential plot echoes of the original AA. Then we have Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, who was sent to the Wall, an echo of AA reborn going to the Wall perhaps? Like Jon? Like Stannis? Like Bloodraven? Methinks yes. 

Thanks for the feedback and so glad you enjoyed the episode, cheers!

[LmL]

On October 14, 2016 at 9:58 AM, cgrav said:

I suspect that "Kings Blood" refers to more than Targaryen patrilineal ancestry. 

First, in this fictional world, "blood" is more than lineage. We see that certain families have stubborn physical traits not erased by the addition of other genes. Blood relation is determined at least as much by familial traits as actual lineage. Therefore a person might have some modicum of Targ heritage, but none of the defining traits that would give them "kings blood".

Second, the Targaryens were only kings for 300 years, and only in Westeros, while the magic concerning kings' blood goes back to ancient Asshai. So who was kingly there? We don't know. But if we assume that "kings blood" was taken literally by the ancient shadowbinders, then it must refer to anyone who descends directly from the rulers of the Empire of the Dawn.

The kingly Targs share appearance with the Daynes, and so likely have a common ancestor, meaning they both could be kings blood. But Jon Snow has kings blood, too, and I would postulate that it's on both sides, as he descends from the Kings of Winter through Lyanna. And if we go with the theory that the Last Hero of Westeros is Azor Ahai or his son, then it's possible that he begat a lineage eventually becoming or intersecting the Starks. Jon therefore is represents a restoration of the line of Kings that began in Asshai (very parallel to Tolkien's Aragorn/Arwen, who are both elf kin).

The question mark is Davos, of course, but I wonder if there isn't something yet to be revealed about him. 

So I'd contend that while "kings blood" includes a lot of people, it is still confined to those who are descended from the Emporer of the Dawn, and only when evidenced by possession of an enduring family trait.

@Lord Martin, did you see @cgrav's comments here? If the Starks do possess the bloodline of Azor Ahai through the Last Hero, then we can see that the Stark - Targ uniting of bloodlines may be very important (I like the LOTR comparison cgrav! ) What I am particularly interested in is the integration of greenseer / First Men blood with the blood of the dragon. That's why the idea of the GEOTD coming to Oldtown to learn the magic of the cotf is so interesting. 

[Lord Martin]

7 hours ago, LmL said:

@Lord Martin, did you see @cgrav's comments here? If the Starks do possess the bloodline of Azor Ahai through the Last Hero, then we can see that the Stark - Targ uniting of bloodlines may be very important (I like the LOTR comparison cgrav! ) What I am particularly interested in is the integration of greenseer / First Men blood with the blood of the dragon. That's why the idea of the GEOTD coming to Oldtown to learn the magic of the cotf is so interesting. 

Totally agree.  This sort of "blood line coming home" if you will is pretty cool.  It sort of reminds me of Tyrion's journeys along the Rhoyne as rivers break off and join back into the main line.

However, it makes me wonder, what is it about the particular Targ/Stark reunification that is so important?  After all, if the Daynes also descend from TGEOTD, then shouldn't Egg also be special?  I suppose arguably he is but not "special" in the way Jon Snow seems to be.  That said, Dany and Egg have the same bloodlines, the exact same due to the Targ incest.  So what makes Jon so special and the role of Stark Blood?

I suspect, as you seem to hint, that the link has to do with the powers of the elder races, COTF or the Giants.  You and Aziz only seemed to hint at the role these older mysteries played in BSE's desire to come to Westeros.  But perhaps Jon represents the aspirations of the BSE to attain some of the powers of these elder races where as Dany is more of a pure line from the GEOTD?  So there is a very specific branch off the AA river that needs to feed back into the main stream.   

It really begs the question, what would happen if Jon and Dany were to have a child.

And as a slight aside, which one do you think seems more likely to survive the main story?  Or to ask it another way, who seem more likely to be the sacrifice?  Dany as a moon maiden seems a likely candidate to be sacrificed as nissa nissa was.  However, Jon certainly has a Christ like aspect.  And while he seems a good candidate to die and be reborn, I can't help but think its a "fake out" for his ultimate death.  Either way, I can't see them both surviving - unless Jon "survives" through his descendants which would be an interesting re-folding of the bloodlines.  

[LmL]

On 10/16/2016 at 7:01 PM, Lord Martin said:

It really begs the question, what would happen if Jon and Dany were to have a child.

TPTWOP - the prince that was over-promised 

[LmL]

On 10/15/2016 at 1:49 PM, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Thanks for the tag @LmL!

Just finished watching (I watched it in 3 chunks over a couple of days).  Really interesting stuff and also very funny in parts. I am entertained!  

I hadn't considered the Hightowers much - probably because I'd spent so much time obsessing and theorising about the Daynes!  Now you come to mention it, they are very similar to the Daynes from a narrative point of view - plenty is said about them without actually revealing much.

Nobody seems to know how far it is if you sail west from Westeros before you reach the Far East of Essos and I haven't seen any confirmed tales of anyone achieving this journey this by ship, but maybe this is because the land to the far far East has been uninhabitable since the end of the GEOTD.  Maybe that journey was possible for some GEODawnians to travel by dragon.  It seems they went in various directions in the world setting up new civilisations, so some could have tried that.  It would make sense why they landed on the west coast (to go West you must go East).

Gemstone eyes also made me think of Brienne's sapphire eyes.  Do you think the Tarths could be from GEODawnian stock?  Same with Symeon Star-Eyes, although I know they weren't his real eyes  

 

Oops, sorry @Lady Fishbiscuit, I somehow missed your comment here. Glad you liked the video and found it entertaining

Yes, the Hightowers and Dayens are like the two most mysterious houses in Westeros. I have to think we will be seeing more of both in the next book. 

As for the east from Asshai route... we are going to discuss that on the follow up QnA, a lot of people have raised that question. The short answer is that yes, I think it's possible, but the regular way would have worked too because the Arm of Dorne would knothole been broken, and there is no safe anchorage along the coast of Dorne... so even sailing West from Essos, the first place to land would be Starfall, and then Oldtown.

I think the Tarth stuff is just symbolic, not indicative of a blood connection to the GEotD - but I can't rule it out either, that's just my gut instinct. The Galladon of Morne fable  has a lot in common with the AA sorry, that's for sure. As for Symeon... I'm embarrassed to say that is one fable which has vexed me. It seems like it should have an astronomical interpretation but I cannot grasp it. I'm not sure if he refers to the GEoTD because I don't think the GEOTD actually had gemstone eyes, I think Dany's dream is just a stylized way of involving their gemstones. Symeon might not have had literal sapphire eyes either, but then we don't have a Sapphire Empress or anything either. I'm open minded because I don't what the deal is with Symeon, but I tend to think he might be more associated with the Others than anything else, right?  I don't really know. 

[LordImp]

@LmL Do you think the red priests might have a connection to GEOTD ? Maybe they where followers of the Bloodstone Emperor and they created a faith to honour him. 

[Bael's Bastard]

19 minutes ago, LordImp said:

@LmL Do you think the red priests might have a connection to GEOTD ? Maybe they where followers of the Bloodstone Emperor and they created a faith to honour him. 

Interesting idea.

Also, I did not realize that one of the Stepstones is called Bloodstone, and was the seat of Prince Daemon Targaryen's "kingdom."

[cgrav]

 If the Bloodstone Emporer was actually the person who caused the Night and worshipped the dark, why would the Red priests talk about light and life all the time? 

I wonder if the first Azor Ahai wasn't trying to do something good when he caused the apocalypse. Maybe he foresaw the eclipse - an especially long or regularly recurring eclipse - and sought to bring the light back. He could have had good intentions in forging LB, but was "punished" for trying to mess with the heavens. Multiple comet passes would be represented by the successive forgings, with the third resulting in the destruction of the moon in eclipse, briefly bringing light back to the planet just before the rain of meteors fell.

And not totally related, but I realized that the red comet in ACOK had to be almost directly above the north end of Planetos. That's the only way it could be visible both day and night from Westeros. It also ties the North directly into the ancient calamity.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

@LmL Do you think the red priests might have a connection to GEOTD ? Maybe they where followers of the Bloodstone Emperor and they created a faith to honour him. 

Yes, I absolutely think this is possible. Perhaps some Starry Wisdom people created R'hllorism as a PR campaign to paint Azor Ahai as a good guy, lol. I think the Valyrians essentially possess the legacy of the twisted magic knowledge of the Bloodstone Emperor, which is like a blend of GEotD knowledge and the BSE's perversions. 

40 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Interesting idea.

Also, I did not realize that one of the Stepstones is called Bloodstone, and was the seat of Prince Daemon Targaryen's "kingdom."

Yeah, Bloodstone and Sunspear, right by the broken Arm. I made a bunch of hey about that in my ThemOuntain vs. the Viper and the Hammer of the Waters episode, because I think we are given reason to interpret the idea of a sun-spear as a meteor, and there are also bleeding star associated with the Bloodstone Emperor, so it's kind of like a whodunnit sign. Bloodstone was here. And Demon is of course a terrific Azor Ahai / Bloodstone Emperor parallel, as he was a kind of usurper to set up his own kingdom, rode the red dragon, his death battle above the God's Eye, etc. 

12 minutes ago, cgrav said:

 If the Bloodstone Emporer was actually the person who caused the Night and worshipped the dark, why would the Red priests talk about light and life all the time? 

They talk bout R'hllor as the god of flame and shadow as well, and they birth shadow babies and conduct human sacrifice. That's all pretty dark. Plus the Azor Ahai legend has him using blood magic and human sacrifice to make LB... the whole thing stinks of evil if you ask me. Not sure how many of my regular theories / podcasts you've seen but I believe the BSE and AA to be the same person, and primarily a villain, at least at first. 

Quote

I wonder if the first Azor Ahai wasn't trying to do something good when he caused the apocalypse.

A distinct possibility. Not sure if we will ever know. It's that whole "stealing the fire of the gods" thing - it can go both ways. 

Quote

Maybe he foresaw the eclipse - an especially long or regularly recurring eclipse - and sought to bring the light back. He could have had good intentions in forging LB, but was "punished" for trying to mess with the heavens. Multiple comet passes would be represented by the successive forgings, with the third resulting in the destruction of the moon in eclipse, briefly bringing light back to the planet just before the rain of meteors fell.

You're not the first to speculate about multiple passes of the comet, and I can't rule it out. i have an explanation which I prefer however which I laid out in my first essay / podcast.  But regardless, he could have been trying to do something good. What if the comet was going to hit the earth and the moon served as a shield? I think the themes of the various AA spin off myths indicate someone who was trying to gain knowledge and magical power for themselves, however, or perhaps for mankind of you want a more positive spin. 

Quote

And not totally related, but I realized that the red comet in ACOK had to be almost directly above the north end of Planetos. That's the only way it could be visible both day and night from Westeros. It also ties the North directly into the ancient calamity.

That makes sense, although I don't know how accurate Martin is making the comet's behavior. It should consistently appear tin he morning or evening for a few weeks or months, then switch, then disappear, but it doesn't do that. Luwin sees it first in the morning, then Dany shortly thereafter in the evening. 

However, i do think that if there is a return of the comet and some kind of impact event on Planetos, I do believe it will land in the north and bring the Wall down, cause the new Long Night, etc. So I like your thinking in general. 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

Oops, sorry @Lady Fishbiscuit, I somehow missed your comment here. Glad you liked the video and found it entertaining

Yes, the Hightowers and Dayens are like the two most mysterious houses in Westeros. I have to think we will be seeing more of both in the next book. 

As for the east from Asshai route... we are going to discuss that on the follow up QnA, a lot of people have raised that question. The short answer is that yes, I think it's possible, but the regular way would have worked too because the Arm of Dorne would knothole been broken, and there is no safe anchorage along the coast of Dorne... so even sailing West from Essos, the first place to land would be Starfall, and then Oldtown.

I think the Tarth stuff is just symbolic, not indicative of a blood connection to the GEotD - but I can't rule it out either, that's just my gut instinct. The Galladon of Morne fable  has a lot in common with the AA sorry, that's for sure. As for Symeon... I'm embarrassed to say that is one fable which has vexed me. It seems like it should have an astronomical interpretation but I cannot grasp it. I'm not sure if he refers to the GEoTD because I don't think the GEOTD actually had gemstone eyes, I think Dany's dream is just a stylized way of involving their gemstones. Symeon might not have had literal sapphire eyes either, but then we don't have a Sapphire Empress or anything either. I'm open minded because I don't what the deal is with Symeon, but I tend to think he might be more associated with the Others than anything else, right?  I don't really know. 

Yeah, I threw Symeon in there but I wasn't really able to tie him to it.  He has the blue eyes/others thing going on but I don't think any mention of him being cold.  He may have some kind of greenseer thing going on as it's suggested he could see without his eyes (plenty points to darkness or blindness enhancing a seers third eye abilities).  We will probably never know.

Just been reading the world book section on The Reach and was interested in the Garth The Green info, particularly his supposed darker nature & blood sacrifice - sounds a lot more AA. It also struck me that he went around sowing seeds and teaching people how to plant and grow crops, in contrast with the Iron Islanders whose motto is "We do not sow" who have been the scourge of the reach as long as anyone can remember.  I wonder did their motto start as a direct opposition to the Gardener Kings. The Grey against the Green, if you like.  

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Yeah, I threw Symeon in there but I wasn't really able to tie him to it.  He has the blue eyes/others thing going on but I don't think any mention of him being cold.  He may have some kind of greenseer thing going on as it's suggested he could see without his eyes (plenty points to darkness or blindness enhancing a seers third eye abilities).  We will probably never know.

Just been reading the world book section on The Reach and was interested in the Garth The Green info, particularly his supposed darker nature & blood sacrifice - sounds a lot more AA. It also struck me that he went around sowing seeds and teaching people how to plant and grow crops, in contrast with the Iron Islanders whose motto is "We do not sow" who have been the scourge of the reach as long as anyone can remember.  I wonder did their motto start as a direct opposition to the Gardener Kings. The Grey against the Green, if you like.  

There's a lot of evidence for a consistent position between the reapers of the IronIslands and the planters of the reach. Even amongst the Wildlings of the frozen shore, they have walrus people and antler people who hate the fuck out of each other. It's a basic winter / summer, death / life thing. The Iron Islanders embody death, harvest, fall and winter, reaping. They do not sew. Garth and his descendants are the opposite in every way. 

It all smacks of the Oak and Holly King cycle, and of many similar myths where two gods kill each other every 6 months in a depiction of the cycle of the seasons. That darker version of Garth, I believe, is the Azor Ahai dark horned lord to Garth's green, life-associated one, and that they make a pair of opposites. Azor Ahai has horned lord associations with dragons and bulls and goats and a boar's tusks, while Garth has elk and stags and perhaps bulls also (haven't figured out the bulls completely yet). So yes, I like your thinking here very much.