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Dragonslords, in Westeros, in the Dawn Age - How Azor Ahai Came to Westeros


LmL

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1 hour ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

I am completely on board with the idea that the Daynes and Hightowers are a surviving branch of the Geo-Dawn that took a stand against the Bloodstone Emperor and his fledgling Valyrian Empire. The myth about dragon-slaying Hightowers to me means precisely this; I think that there may or may not have been actual dragons there, as we have seen that 'dragon' means both the creatures and dragon-blooded people. 

This idea is actually proving to be a little popular... it does really make a lot sense. One of those things we hope to get more clarity on in TWOW, Daynes and especially Hightowers. Can't wait. 

1 hour ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

There's a phenomenon you see in archaeology, history, and especially linguistics called 'survival on the periphery,' in which traditions from a culture are preserved especially well in the border regions. The culture will evolve (or the empire may crumble) especially fast at the centre, but that sort of change may not ripple all the way out to the edges. So if you want to find Amethyst Empire loyalists, the border region, Westeros, is a great place to find it. 

George gave us a great example of this with Hyrkoon - the only surviving remnants of its culture are the three fortress cities in the Bones mountains which guard the only three passes through. That would absolutely have been the frontier of Hyrkoon empire.  Great call. The more I think about the Daynes and Hightowers as colonial Americans and the GEotD as Great Britain, the more that analogy makes sense to me. The Native Americans in many cases taught the colonists how to wage war in much sneakier, less direct and ultimately more effective way than the British troops who pretty much assembled on the battle field and marched in formation and not much else.Whatever the extent of that, the point is that the idea of the colonists learning survival skills from the natives could be paralleled by the idea of GEotD coming to Westeros and learning magic of the cotf, then turning against the BSE when he began his reign on madness. 

1 hour ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

What is really baking my noodle is thinking of what went on at the stone fortress that became the High Tower in the lead-up to the Long Night. I am of the opinion that it was a border fortress, but what was up there? The obvious answer, the Others, doesn't quite fit if they didn't appear until the Long Night. So what the hell was up there? 

God I love this stuff! 

I think it parallels well the Phoenician cities built on island fortresses like the great Tyre which was finally conquered by Alexander the Great. The idea was that the Phoenicians would build a fortress just offshore of a place they wanted to trade with or colonize, and thereby have stronghold which was accessible by sea that could be cut off from land. The Valyrian did this with Volantis and Tyrosh and Dragonstone, and the GEotD might have done it with Battle Isle. Everything we are given by way of clues about what the GEOTD was doing there have to do with trade or goods or magic, so that is more or less consistent with what I am talking about. That fixed stone fortress was just a fortified base of operations for the easterners to interact with Westeros from, and when they invaded, they were apparently turned back. 

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3 hours ago, LordImp said:

@LmL Do you think it was a Stark ancestor who defeated BSE at Battle Isle? 

Quite possibly. I look at the Tower of Joy as a likely parallel here - a King in the North coming down to whoop ass on magic sword wielding GEOTD person (played by Arthur in this scenario).  I picture Stark killed the BSE and then taking his sword perhaps, the way Ned took Dawn form the ToJ (didn't keep it, but still). He also took baby Jon home, and Jon himself represents a form of Lightbringer and AA reborn, so there you go. I favor Brandon of the Bloody Blade, son or descendent of Garth the Green, for this role. 

But the other possibility is that the Starks represent the BSE there, and Arthur Dayne the "Amethyst Empress loyalists" who would have been fighting the BSE. That could make sense too, because the Starks have symbolic ties to AA as a king of the Long Night (king of winter, king of night, not much different). Also, the Starks are very much the kings OVER winter, the kings who defeated winter and held it in check from their castle of warmth. That sounds like the classic, heroic idea of AA fighting the LN. The BSE was the ninth ruler of the GEOTD, and the KoW has nine iron swords on his crown (9 is a number which pops up a lot with AA ideas, because the comet would have been the ninth wanderer when we still had 2 moons). And if the Daynes (and Hightowers, remember Gerold Hightower was at the ToJ too) represent dragon people who resisted the BSE's evil and fought with the native Westerosi, then it would make sense to equate Arthur and Gerold as pro-Westerosi in this ToJ parallel, and Ned as the AA / BSE character.  Ned is the LH parallel here, because he is the one who returns north again with Lightbringer symbols, so the question is, is this photo-Stark we are talking about a defeated and humbled BSE / AA who is now sent north to atone for his sins, or a Westerosi who defeated him and took his sword to go fight the Others?

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1 hour ago, LmL said:

Quite possibly. I look at the Tower of Joy as a likely parallel here - a King in the North coming down to whoop ass on magic sword wielding GEOTD person (played by Arthur in this scenario).  I picture Stark killed the BSE and then taking his sword perhaps, the way Ned took Dawn form the ToJ (didn't keep it, but still). He also took baby Jon home, and Jon himself represents a form of Lightbringer and AA reborn, so there you go. I favor Brandon of the Bloody Blade, son or descendent of Garth the Green, for this role. 

But the other possibility is that the Starks represent the BSE there, and Arthur Dayne the "Amethyst Empress loyalists" who would have been fighting the BSE. That could make sense too, because the Starks have symbolic ties to AA as a king of the Long Night (king of winter, king of night, not much different). Also, the Starks are very much the kings OVER winter, the kings who defeated winter and held it in check from their castle of warmth. That sounds like the classic, heroic idea of AA fighting the LN. The BSE was the ninth ruler of the GEOTD, and the KoW has nine iron swords on his crown (9 is a number which pops up a lot with AA ideas, because the comet would have been the ninth wanderer when we still had 2 moons). And if the Daynes (and Hightowers, remember Gerold Hightower was at the ToJ too) represent dragon people who resisted the BSE's evil and fought with the native Westerosi, then it would make sense to equate Arthur and Gerold as pro-Westerosi in this ToJ parallel, and Ned as the AA / BSE character.  Ned is the LH parallel here, because he is the one who returns north again with Lightbringer symbols, so the question is, is this photo-Stark we are talking about a defeated and humbled BSE / AA who is now sent north to atone for his sins, or a Westerosi who defeated him and took his sword to go fight the Others?

It's impressing that you find so much information and hints backing up your theories. I like the idea of a Stark defeating the BSE. 

The possibility of BSE going North to fight the Others is interesting , i think Dany will do the same. First fighting in the south and then go North to fight the Others and possibily die. 

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On October 11, 2016 at 0:18 PM, LmL said:

Last point on the Daynes - I think they might be more of a recipe than a specific solution. Meaning, blood of the dragon + the first First Men blood can = SOTM. Last time, that combination lead to the Last Hero and perhaps House Dayne.

Perhaps. But as much as Martin has given us magic blood in his novels, he's also undermined the idea of "blood=right" to pretty much anything.

So, I agree blood does matter. And that the Daynes are most likely from the Great Empire. But the Sword of the Morning's history of only being bestowed on one who is worthy and that Dawn "waits at Starfall until another Sword of the Morning shall arise"--that sounds like blood is never enough.

And I agree that the Last Hero was likely tied to the Daynes. Like the Daynes and Starks are originally related--makes a lot of sense to me, one brother putting down the Night's King (like the Sword of the Evening).

On October 11, 2016 at 0:18 PM, LmL said:

We could use that same recipe again by marrying a Targ to a Stark, or perhaps to a Blackwood, you dig? Jon and Dany both have Blackwood blood AND Dayne blood anyway though targaryen marriages a couple generations back. But the point of House Dayne in the story might be to show us how it was done. We might not need an actual Dayne, we might need to recreate the recipe for House Dayne... meaning, Rhaegar might have done that already when he made Jon, who bears all the hallmarks of being the new SOTM as my friend @Sly Wren has shown.

1. Cheers, mate! :cheers:

2. Martin's talked about magic being a one off at times, right? Like Dany's dragon waking. So, "recreating the recipe" might be less the issue than "all things coming together" which includes human choice and "worthiness"--however the Daynes define that.

On October 11, 2016 at 0:18 PM, LmL said:

If Jon is not a Dayne,

Well, he could be--but, per your note earlier in this post, I'll avoid that.

On October 11, 2016 at 0:18 PM, LmL said:

  for this reason, I am not sure the Daynes or Dawn will play any important role at all, actually. I can go either way on this. Dawn may be a museum piece in the same sense that House Dayne represents a recipe.

On this--a completely unique sword, that Jon sees in the stars and Dany seems to see in her dream and that keeps getting mentioned--really think that thing needs to be used.

How? That's been driving me to distraction of late. I keep coming back to the elements of "war solves nothing" in the novels. And the likelihood that the Others are related to humans/Starks. And Ygritte's point that everyone's basically related. With all that (and more ) spinning in my bird brain, I keep thinking war won't fix this or bring back the seasons. Or stop the Others. And am thus trying to figure out what one could do with a sword to bring about actual peace.

On October 11, 2016 at 0:18 PM, LmL said:

If Dawn IS to be used  in the main action, I have speculated that perhaps Darkstar will steal it, only to die and cough up the sword to Jon or Dany or whomever when the time is right.

Agreed--or Allyria and/or Edric get it out of there. 

Or, you know, a woman in a pond.:P

 

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On October 11, 2016 at 10:21 AM, WalkinDude said:

Has anyone ever seriously put together an argument that Jon or someone may be of Dayne blood?  Dawn being of a strange metal unlike any other, being called "Dawn" and the title of its wielder being called "Sword of the Morning" all scream that this is the blade that ended The Long Night.  The story is called a Song of Ice and Fire and Rhaegar specifically says that TPTWP has the song of ice and fire.  

With your argument being that the Dayne's are of similar stock as Valyrians, it stands to reason that someone of House Dayne who have the blood of the first men and whatever race empowered the Valyrians in their blood are a strong candidate for Azor Ahai/TPTWP/The Last hero. Add in Stark blood which appears to have a connection to the Night's King among other connections to the Others, and you have a compelling case.

I know everyone is sold on Jon or Dany, but neither have a commonly agreed connection to House Dayne and like you, I see the role of Dawn being much more prominent in the battles to come.  I've often wondered if maybe Arthur Dayne wasn't ordered by Rhaegar to impregnate Lyanna to bring about Azor Ahai.

Amen, ser!

But given what Ned thinks about bastards and lust, Jon seems like he really could have just been an accident (regardless of paternity). So, no need to order Arthur to do anything on that score.

On October 11, 2016 at 11:51 AM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

We know in the sense that GRRM, in answer to a question, stated that it was Lyanna's name. It hasn't been written into the books yet, so provided you consider word-of-the-author to be definitive, then yes it's confirmed.

Not to dive into the whole parentage thing, but quickly: do you or anyone else have that SSM?

I've looked everywhere I can think of--including every Citadel posting with either "Lyanna" or "Lyanna's" in it (yes, being sick drives me to distraction). Could not find it. Closest thing was the Citadel saying it was most likely Lyanna's name. But no reference to an SSM to support that statement. Nor any hint of the SSM itself.

Does anyone have it? Or an inkling of where to look? Or knowledge of where I missed it in the Citadel?

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2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Perhaps. But as much as Martin has given us magic blood in his novels, he's also undermined the idea of "blood=right" to pretty much anything.

So, I agree blood does matter. And that the Daynes are most likely from the Great Empire. But the Sword of the Morning's history of only being bestowed on one who is worthy and that Dawn "waits at Starfall until another Sword of the Morning shall arise"--that sounds like blood is never enough.

And I agree that the Last Hero was likely tied to the Daynes. Like the Daynes and Starks are originally related--makes a lot of sense to me, one brother putting down the Night's King (like the Sword of the Evening).

1. Cheers, mate! :cheers:

2. Martin's talked about magic being a one off at times, right? Like Dany's dragon waking. So, "recreating the recipe" might be less the issue than "all things coming together" which includes human choice and "worthiness"--however the Daynes define that.

Well, he could be--but, per your note earlier in this post, I'll avoid that.

On this--a completely unique sword, that Jon sees in the stars and Dany seems to see in her dream and that keeps getting mentioned--really think that thing needs to be used.

How? That's been driving me to distraction of late. I keep coming back to the elements of "war solves nothing" in the novels. And the likelihood that the Others are related to humans/Starks. And Ygritte's point that everyone's basically related. With all that (and more ) spinning in my bird brain, I keep thinking war won't fix this or bring back the seasons. Or stop the Others. And am thus trying to figure out what one could do with a sword to bring about actual peace.

Agreed--or Allyria and/or Edric get it out of there. 

Or, you know, a woman in a pond.:P

 

LISTEN, strange women, lyin in ponds, is not a basis for a system of government!  LoL

I understand your interpretation of that moment with the constellation SOTM, and i like it, but it could be wrong in whole or in part. Jon himself could be the SOTM as in 'the one who helps end the new LN' but he might not need Dawn to do it. Like I said I can see either scenario - Dawn being used, Dawn not being used - so I generally entertain both possibilities.  And as always, I mention your thread as a good case for Jon aligning with SOTM ideas. :)

As for blood, Bran's blood makes him a greenseer, but what kind of greenseer will he be? That's up to the character. In other words, I don't see any conflict between fantasy ideas such as magic blood and the "heart in conflict" ideas that revolve around characters. 

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So I had a 'duh-DOY!' moment today while I was listening to LmL's Q&A with History of Westeros. Great job, by the way! 

Arthur Dayne and his magic sword were pretty on the nose, but it just got better. 

So, the King Arthur myth is linked to a fifth-century chief in Britain, in post-Roman times. As the story goes -- or rather the story of Ambrosius Aurelanius -- after the Romans left Britain in around 410 because their empire was a slow-motion train wreck, he was a Christian (sort of code for 'highly Romanised') chieftain who led a spirited defence of the good Romano-British people against evil heathen invaders. And also the neighbouring chieftains. Kind of a last gasp of the noble dying empire against the encroaching forces of chaos. 

So there's Daynes and Hightowers hanging out in Brit... I mean Westeros, with names like Uther and Arthur. Yeah. But it gets better! Part of King Arthur's myth is that he will have a messianic return from the dead, to destroy the forces of evil with his magic sword, in Britain's greatest hour of need. 

It looks like George is going as close as possible to the King Arthur mythology. I am now roughly 100% certain that the Sword of the Morning and Dawn will make a literal comeback in the person of one of our Heroes of Might and Destiny. And then George will probably fuck with the whole thing. 

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3 hours ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

So I had a 'duh-DOY!' moment today while I was listening to LmL's Q&A with History of Westeros. Great job, by the way! 

Arthur Dayne and his magic sword were pretty on the nose, but it just got better. 

So, the King Arthur myth is linked to a fifth-century chief in Britain, in post-Roman times. As the story goes -- or rather the story of Ambrosius Aurelanius -- after the Romans left Britain in around 410 because their empire was a slow-motion train wreck, he was a Christian (sort of code for 'highly Romanised') chieftain who led a spirited defence of the good Romano-British people against evil heathen invaders. And also the neighbouring chieftains. Kind of a last gasp of the noble dying empire against the encroaching forces of chaos. 

So there's Daynes and Hightowers hanging out in Brit... I mean Westeros, with names like Uther and Arthur. Yeah. But it gets better! Part of King Arthur's myth is that he will have a messianic return from the dead, to destroy the forces of evil with his magic sword, in Britain's greatest hour of need. 

It looks like George is going as close as possible to the King Arthur mythology. I am now roughly 100% certain that the Sword of the Morning and Dawn will make a literal comeback in the person of one of our Heroes of Might and Destiny. And then George will probably fuck with the whole thing. 

This will come as good news to @Sly Wren, who is a big fan of Dawn coming out to play. 

Here's the thing, there is only one sword which can wear the title of "most important sword" in ASOIAF, and it isn't Danw, not by a longshot. It's Ice, of course, and my money is on Oathkeeper as the most important actual sword we have left. A sword fight with Dawn and Oathkeeper would surely be too much to hope for, but who knows. 

I think Dawn is a dragon-killer, myself. 

As you say, Martin is working the themes, but he always fucks it up, which leaves us unsure (and that's part of the idea no doubt). But I think we should look for some kind of hurrah from the Daynes and Hightowers one way or the other.

 

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On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 11:21 AM, WalkinDude said:

Has anyone ever seriously put together an argument that Jon or someone may be of Dayne blood?  Dawn being of a strange metal unlike any other, being called "Dawn" and the title of its wielder being called "Sword of the Morning" all scream that this is the blade that ended The Long Night.  The story is called a Song of Ice and Fire and Rhaegar specifically says that TPTWP has the song of ice and fire.  

With your argument being that the Dayne's are of similar stock as Valyrians, it stands to reason that someone of House Dayne who have the blood of the first men and whatever race empowered the Valyrians in their blood are a strong candidate for Azor Ahai/TPTWP/The Last hero. Add in Stark blood which appears to have a connection to the Night's King among other connections to the Others, and you have a compelling case.

I know everyone is sold on Jon or Dany, but neither have a commonly agreed connection to House Dayne and like you, I see the role of Dawn being much more prominent in the battles to come.  I've often wondered if maybe Arthur Dayne wasn't ordered by Rhaegar to impregnate Lyanna to bring about Azor Ahai.

I started something like this sadly I don't have the time to study the books to write anything other than a basic question. Anyways it was quickly, and  ruthlessly denied.  It was my last ditch hope to deny  R+L=J. 

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4 hours ago, LordImp said:

Wonder if BSE didnt kill Ametyst empress directly , but that she died giving birth to his kid.  Maybe that kid was the first Dayne , and i think the first Dayne was Eldric Shadowchaser.  

Yes, it is tempting link Eldric Shadowchaser to Westeros and House Dayne. The fact that they have an Edric Dayne today and an Ulrick Dayne in the past is a good clue. House Stark also had an Edric Snowbeard and an Elric Stark. 

And yeah, dying in childbirth would very much fit the symbolism. 

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26 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, it is tempting link Eldric Shadowchaser to Westeros and House Dayne. The fact that they have an Edric Dayne today and an Ulrick Dayne in the past is a good clue. House Stark also had an Edric Snowbeard and an Elric Stark. 

And yeah, dying in childbirth would very much fit the symbolism. 

I'm curious what kind of shadow Eldric chased , dark shadow like those Mel summons or the white shadows from the North ?

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4 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I'm curious what kind of shadow Eldric chased , dark shadow like those Mel summons or the white shadows from the North ?

Ha ha, great question! Maybe both!

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11 hours ago, LmL said:

Here's the thing, there is only one sword which can wear the title of "most important sword" in ASOIAF, and it isn't Danw, not by a longshot. It's Ice, of course, and my money is on Oathkeeper as the most important actual sword we have left. A sword fight with Dawn and Oathkeeper would surely be too much to hope for, but who knows. 

I think Dawn is a dragon-killer, myself. 

Wasn't there a prophecy that a black dragon would die at the hands of Duncan the Tall? I think it was Daeron the Dunkard that said that to Duncan. I know it has been interpreted to be Duncan fighting Aerion Brightflame and it is rather unoriginal to suggest that Brienne would kill Drogon but then Oathkeeper would be a dragon-killer as well. Are Valyrian-steel swords capable of killing dragons? I would have to think that Valyrians would not take to subjugating highly dangerous animals without knowing how to kill them. 

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1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Wasn't there a prophecy that a black dragon would die at the hands of Duncan the Tall? I think it was Daeron the Dunkard that said that to Duncan. I know it has been interpreted to be Duncan fighting Aerion Brightflame and it is rather unoriginal to suggest that Brienne would kill Drogon but then Oathkeeper would be a dragon-killer as well. Are Valyrian-steel swords capable of killing dragons? I would have to think that Valyrians would not take to subjugating highly dangerous animals without knowing how to kill them. 

Prince Daeron dreamed of Duncan the Tall and a dead dragon, a great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover a meadow. It had fallen on top of Duncan, but Duncan was alive and the dragon was dead. When Duncan asked him if he had killed it, Daeron said he could not say, but Duncan was there, and so was the dragon. It doesn't mention the color of the dragon, and seems to refer to something that Duncan survived. Duncan himself seems to understand it to have referred to the death of Prince Baelor.

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18 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Prince Daeron dreamed of Duncan the Tall and a dead dragon, a great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover a meadow. It had fallen on top of Duncan, but Duncan was alive and the dragon was dead. When Duncan asked him if he had killed it, Daeron said he could not say, but Duncan was there, and so was the dragon. It doesn't mention the color of the dragon, and seems to refer to something that Duncan survived. Duncan himself seems to understand it to have referred to the death of Prince Baelor.

Ah ok thanks. I confuse myself sometimes. 

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Not to interrupt the Dayne speculation, but since we're on AA coming to Westeros... Has anyone else noticed that the Ironborn words and religious ritual are an exact imitation of the sword forging process (referring to LB of course)?

They "drown" a person who then "rises harder and stronger". It's just the same as tempering a sword in water.

Between Nagga's Ribs, Grey King, the weirwood circles, and those words, I'm starting to think that the GEOTD people, or AA itself, came first to the Iron Islands. The Western ocean is currently a complete mystery, save a few mentions.

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54 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Not to interrupt the Dayne speculation, but since we're on AA coming to Westeros... Has anyone else noticed that the Ironborn words and religious ritual are an exact imitation of the sword forging process (referring to LB of course)?

They "drown" a person who then "rises harder and stronger". It's just the same as tempering a sword in water.

Between Nagga's Ribs, Grey King, the weirwood circles, and those words, I'm starting to think that the GEOTD people, or AA itself, came first to the Iron Islands. The Western ocean is currently a complete mystery, save a few mentions.

Have you read / listened to my Grey King episode? I made that exact analogy - the sword tempering - although I am thinking of the sea dragon meteor as the original template here. In Theon's homecoming chapter in ACOK, he comes upon Pyke while the red comet is in the air and the broken peninsula of land on which Pyke sits is described as once having thrust into the bowels of the ocean, but having been shattered by the hammering of the waves ages past. That's more or less what the island drowning sea dragon was, sword-like meteor which landed in the ocean, triggering flood tides that hammered and shattered the land, ages past. The entire sequence is very evocative of a sword tempering, and Martin has intentionally drawn correlations between that idea and scenes where dragons dive bomb into the water (the once in ASOS is my favorite example of this). 

I also agree that the Ironborn must have GEOTD blood. It too neatly explains their unusual-for-FirstMen seafaring skill, their own legends of an oceanic origin, their advanced ability to work iron, etc. Pyke is also a round tower built long before the Andals came to Westeros, and the FM supposedly couldn't build round towers.

And of course then there is the Seastone Chair. I mean every lord worth anything in Asshai has one of these at his dinner table, but in Westeros it really sticks out like a sore thumb. 

The Grey Kings myths themselves match a lot of the components of the Azor Ahai mythology too, which is potentially explained by the GEOTD coming west. 

All of that is in my Grey King episode. 

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