Dragonslords, in Westeros, in the Dawn Age - How Azor Ahai Came to Westeros

[LordImp]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Yes, I absolutely think this is possible. Perhaps some Starry Wisdom people created R'hllorism as a PR campaign to paint Azor Ahai as a good guy, lol. I think the Valyrians essentially possess the legacy of the twisted magic knowledge of the Bloodstone Emperor, which is like a blend of GEotD knowledge and the BSE's perversions. 

Yeah, Bloodstone and Sunspear, right by the broken Arm. I made a bunch of hey about that in my ThemOuntain vs. the Viper and the Hammer of the Waters episode, because I think we are given reason to interpret the idea of a sun-spear as a meteor, and there are also bleeding star associated with the Bloodstone Emperor, so it's kind of like a whodunnit sign. Bloodstone was here. And Demon is of course a terrific Azor Ahai / Bloodstone Emperor parallel, as he was a kind of usurper to set up his own kingdom, rode the red dragon, his death battle above the God's Eye, etc. 

They talk bout R'hllor as the god of flame and shadow as well, and they birth shadow babies and conduct human sacrifice. That's all pretty dark. Plus the Azor Ahai legend has him using blood magic and human sacrifice to make LB... the whole thing stinks of evil if you ask me. Not sure how many of my regular theories / podcasts you've seen but I believe the BSE and AA to be the same person, and primarily a villain, at least at first. 

A distinct possibility. Not sure if we will ever know. It's that whole "stealing the fire of the gods" thing - it can go both ways. 

You're not the first to speculate about multiple passes of the comet, and I can't rule it out. i have an explanation which I prefer however which I laid out in my first essay / podcast.  But regardless, he could have been trying to do something good. What if the comet was going to hit the earth and the moon served as a shield? I think the themes of the various AA spin off myths indicate someone who was trying to gain knowledge and magical power for themselves, however, or perhaps for mankind of you want a more positive spin. 

That makes sense, although I don't know how accurate Martin is making the comet's behavior. It should consistently appear tin he morning or evening for a few weeks or months, then switch, then disappear, but it doesn't do that. Luwin sees it first in the morning, then Dany shortly thereafter in the evening. 

However, i do think that if there is a return of the comet and some kind of impact event on Planetos, I do believe it will land in the north and bring the Wall down, cause the new Long Night, etc. So I like your thinking in general. 

Maybe Daenerys will be the one to return the Targaryen bloodline into what it was before BSE. Or will she become a Bloodstone empress ?

The red priests is a big mystery to me . Moqorro survived for a long time at sea , seems to me  that they are some kind of undead. Corrupted humans who has become monsters .

[cgrav]

7 hours ago, LmL said:

That makes sense, although I don't know how accurate Martin is making the comet's behavior. It should consistently appear tin he morning or evening for a few weeks or months, then switch, then disappear, but it doesn't do that. Luwin sees it first in the morning, then Dany shortly thereafter in the evening. 

However, i do think that if there is a return of the comet and some kind of impact event on Planetos, I do believe it will land in the north and bring the Wall down, cause the new Long Night, etc. So I like your thinking in general. 

Yeah, I've been really enjoying the podcasts and now I see the moon/meteor/sun/sword stuff all over the place!

Lately I'm starting to wonder if these ancient prophecies might actually contain a bit of scientific prediction. Could be that someone way in the past figured out how to predict certain phenomena, but their math was lost to time, leaving only a vague prophecy in myth.

I'm curious what you make of Rhaegar's comet he saw the night he believed Aegon was conceived. It seems conspicuously under-discussed, considering the level of superstition attached to comets both in-story and in real history. I guess it could have been a regular tiny meteorite, but that's not a rare occurrence in the least. With the massive mythos built up around celestial objects, I just really hate to throw away the only other comet we ever hear about so close to the story's present narrative.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Been a while since I posted, but had to come back for this. Great job as always @LmL!

I think it actually took me like 6 hours to go through the whole thing, since I kept pausing so I could have a think.

I remember ages ago having a discussion with you about the Hightower->Dayne connection (Uther/Arthur, father/son). The names are the big trick here because they obscure more than reveal. The Hightowers had to have a name before they built the High Tower, and Dayne is just a hint at "worthy" (in England, that's the etymology of that last name, not a connection to Denmark as often thought). Both names are "descriptive", both hiding the real story.

The other aspect of the name trick is that they're patrilenial in Westeros, and the Westeros patriarchy is as efficient at skewing the worldview as our real life patriarchy is. Like with Aegon the Conq, it took until TWOIAF for us to question his role versus Visenya's, for example. We talk about Targ men marrying their sisters, but all our info on Valyria comes sieved through the maesters' anti-woman bias. Who's to say the daughters weren't the real power in the family, and since they married their brothers, the family name question is irrelevant anyway. I bring this up (the role of dragon women) because I think the female line is much much more important in understanding the dragons than the male line, which neatly escapes notice if you look at Targs' descent the way it's presented for standard Westerosi families (father->son). If Dany is re-acting the original dragon-forging story, can we really imagine a man in her role? Can we imagine a "father of dragons"? A man can't give birth, and the dragons are given birth to (metaphorically), time and again in how the event is referred to. The original dragon line goes back to a woman, not a man. It's the mothers that matter more than fathers.

This is then of course of major relevance for the roles of Alicent Hightower and Diana Dayne, two key points when non-Targ women enter the Targ bloodline, since unlike for the Velaryons, we don't know of any Targ women "en-dragonning" those families (eg somewhat surprisingly, all of Alicent's children AND grandchildren were dragonriders... this to me is a hint that Hightowers have dragonblood, not that the father's blood is more important, as might appear at first glance if you look at this marriage; Rhaenyra's bastard sons were dragonriders, and their father was god knows who). It would be fitting if the seemingly innocuous insertion of Dayne blood through Diana is what reanimated the perhaps extinct dragonblood in the Targ line, and if that old dragonblood (rather than the Valyrian nouveau-dragonblood) was what made Dany special.

But in general, just a great example of things hiding in plain sight, if you consider female lineage instead of the male.

-----------

As for the Long Night and sequence of events... GAH! Such anger, such frustration, it burnsssss

My internal canon (I like that expression btw), which I arrived at prompted by the latest ep:

(1) Geodawnians, as the original FIRST first men, wage war on the Cotf with fire and metal.

(2) to fight this, the wood-only Cotf create the Others, as excellent man-killing weapons.

(3) to fight the Others, the Geodawnians retaliate by creating dragons -> Nissa Nissa is the original Mother of Dragons. Like Dany will, she died giving birth to her only living son (some roles can't be reversed, only women can be mothers).

(4) this didn't break the moon. The reference in the NN story to her scream cracking the moon implies that her role kicked off the chain of events that lead to the moon eventually being destroyed (or may be a conflated story considering what happens next). Similarly, the BSE didn't worship a literal stone that fell from the sky - he worshipped a dragon, the original Black Dread (thanks to your dragon/meteor metaphor work!).

(5) the Cotf, faced with dragons and having no other weapon (the Others are lethal against men, but against dragons??), destroy the moon. Like in the Doom, the cataclysm destroys dragons (while providing lots of references to a different kind of dragons falling from the sky), and bonus creates a global winter that amplifies the Others' ability to eradicate the Cotf's enemy: men. (And, in a way, Nissa's scream did break the moon -> had there not been dragons, the moon would still be there).

It's a dance of one-upmanship of weapons and destruction: fire -> Others -> dragons -> Long Night. The original song of ice and fire / arms race. This is why I like this order of events, there's a consistency in the escalation.

(6) I agree *somehow* the Cotf lost control of the Others. That's the only reason they'd sign the Pact / help the LH. My thoughts, again indebted to discussions with you about the role of all the "Greenseer" hints, run to a man who was a Cotf/man mix (not dragonblooded), who became a powerful Greenseer (at the Ravenry?) and seized control of the Others from the Cotf. However he then turned on both the men and the Cotf (he's the original Night's King?); and indeed, both groups were guilty for nearly destroying the world through either dragons or a cataclysm (so maybe our NK fella is the ultimate good guy). 

(7) the LH had to have been of dragonblood/Cotf lineage. The Cotf blood is the "ice blood" in the ice/fire blood mix - it refers to blood that has some power over the Others, like fire blood has some sort of power over the dragons. We know the LH has a Dayne connection (but see my final comment below), and we "know" the Daynes are of the Hightowers, who we "know" are of the Geodawnian dragon bloodline - though I see more generations here, rather than BSE->LH as father->son (there is also a rebellion story here, since the first Hightower destroyed the dragons on Battle Isle: so he rebelled against his own parentage, like a good son of AA would).

(8) the part I find the hardest to unravel is whether there were two battles or just one. There was no battle to end the Long Night (the atmospheric fuckup had to clear up by itself), but there could have been a battle (at Winterfell?) to break the Night's King power. BUT, was there also, and before this, a battle at Battle Isle to destroy the remaining Geodawnian dragonlords? Is this why the Cotf even considered helping the LH against the Others (now that the fire threat is well and truly subdued)? Is this the "rebellion" and the story of the first Hightower clearing Battle Isle of "dragons"?

(9) the Stark was a Cotf/man mix, and his role was to be the guarantee for the Cotf - there must always be a Stark at Winterfell or the Cotf will consider the Pact broken. It's not a piece of good advice in case winter comes, it's a threat of what will happen if the guarantee is broken. He may have been the Greenseer/NK's actual brother (their bloodlines are both Cotf/man, but not Cotf/dragonlord like the LH).

(10) I don't think the LH had children, or at least that he wasn't the direct progenitor of House Dayne (this role was played by a full-dragonblooded half-sibling of his). Why? If the LH had had children, the special Cotf/dragonlord (or ice/fire blood if you will) blood would be passed down, instead of having to be recreated in the person of Jon. I think a hint of this is that Dawn isn't passed father to son, but to a worthy heir; since the LH didn't have children, it's how he would have passed it as well (to a nephew), starting the tradition. Arthur Dayne, of course, is the uncle to the current Dayne lord

@LmL, if you made it this far without exploding from rage at my incorrect assumptions or falling asleep, please pick this apart for where you reckon things don't work from a meta PoV.

 

[Kaibaman]

Ok this may sound kinda silly but I wonder if The Ice Dragon book takes place in Dawn Age times? I know GRRM had said it is not linked to the ASOIAF universe though his publishers have said otherwise. Then again it would fit in quite perfectly to the idea of ancient dragon riding kingdoms in Westeros. Perhaps Adara lived in this uber ancient period and it was in her lifetime this mighty Dawn Empire fractured into warring kingdoms of dragon riders which explains how this great civilization collapsed (sorry I haven't seen the video yet so correct me if I'm wrong). And just like Daynes and Targaryens maybe descended from these ancient dragon riders, Adara could have been a 'proto-Other' and for all we know she could be their great ancestor or something.

[LmL]

4 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

Ok this may sound kinda silly but I wonder if The Ice Dragon book takes place in Dawn Age times? I know GRRM had said it is not linked to the ASOIAF universe though his publishers have said otherwise. Then again it would fit in quite perfectly to the idea of ancient dragon riding kingdoms in Westeros. Perhaps Adara lived in this uber ancient period and it was in her lifetime this mighty Dawn Empire fractured into warring kingdoms of dragon riders which explains how this great civilization collapsed (sorry I haven't seen the video yet so correct me if I'm wrong). And just like Daynes and Targaryens maybe descended from these ancient dragon riders, Adara could have been a 'proto-Other' and for all we know she could be their great ancestor or something.

Because the magical ideas in the Ice Dragon seem consistent with ASOIAF, I like to think of it as one of Old Nan's tales - like a fairytale from Westeros, rooted in basic truths but highly mythicized. I tend to think the NQ was someone like Adara, a cold version of Melisandre - a living person who somehow has cold blood, who has "the cold inside her," just as Mel "has the fire inside her." I haven't read all of the ice Dragon so I am not sure what all you are referring to with dragon lord kingdoms (are there some in the book?) but I do think it jibes with the other inexplicable dragon-related fairy tales in Westeros.

[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, LmL said:

Because the magical ideas in the Ice Dragon seem consistent with ASOIAF, I like to think of it as one of Old Nan's tales - like a fairytale from Westeros, rooted in basic truths but highly mythicized. I tend to think the NQ was someone like Adara, a cold version of Melisandre - a living person who somehow has cold blood, who has "the cold inside her," just as Mel "has the fire inside her." I haven't read all of the ice Dragon so I am not sure what all you are referring to with dragon lord kingdoms (are there some in the book?) but I do think it jibes with the other inexplicable dragon-related fairy tales in Westeros.

The Ice Dragon book is amazingly similar to ASOIAF. So much so that I almost doubt GRRM's claim they are not related in one world. I mean, if the story is set in some part of a dawn age, then you could make a (possible) connection to the pond at Winterfell.

There is definitely something about Adara that can continue on in this world. I very much agree with you on that

FINISH IT!

[LmL]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Ice Dragon book is amazingly similar to ASOIAF. So much so that I almost doubt GRRM's claim they are not related in one world. I mean, if the story is set in some part of a dawn age, then you could make a (possible) connection to the pond at Winterfell.

There is definitely something about Adara that can continue on in this world. I very much agree with you on that

FINISH IT!

I'm hip to the idea that Ice Dragons melt when they die, and of the idea that the cold black pond in the WF godswood could be an ice dragon puddle. I'm totally down, I love this idea.

[Kaibaman]

5 hours ago, LmL said:

Because the magical ideas in the Ice Dragon seem consistent with ASOIAF, I like to think of it as one of Old Nan's tales - like a fairytale from Westeros, rooted in basic truths but highly mythicized. I tend to think the NQ was someone like Adara, a cold version of Melisandre - a living person who somehow has cold blood, who has "the cold inside her," just as Mel "has the fire inside her." I haven't read all of the ice Dragon so I am not sure what all you are referring to with dragon lord kingdoms (are there some in the book?) but I do think it jibes with the other inexplicable dragon-related fairy tales in Westeros.

A haven't read the book for a while but in it there were two kingdoms locked in an ongoing war. The book doesn't give us much details about these two warring kingdoms, we only know them as Adara's kingdom and the foreign kingdom. The book does mention that both sides had scores of dragons and dragon riders and it seems dragonriding was very common in both kingdoms as Adara's uncle was one.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

On 18/10/2016 at 8:19 PM, LmL said:

There's a lot of evidence for a consistent position between the reapers of the IronIslands and the planters of the reach. Even amongst the Wildlings of the frozen shore, they have walrus people and antler people who hate the fuck out of each other. It's a basic winter / summer, death / life thing. The Iron Islanders embody death, harvest, fall and winter, reaping. They do not sew. Garth and his descendants are the opposite in every way. 

It all smacks of the Oak and Holly King cycle, and of many similar myths where two gods kill each other every 6 months in a depiction of the cycle of the seasons. That darker version of Garth, I believe, is the Azor Ahai dark horned lord to Garth's green, life-associated one, and that they make a pair of opposites. Azor Ahai has horned lord associations with dragons and bulls and goats and a boar's tusks, while Garth has elk and stags and perhaps bulls also (haven't figured out the bulls completely yet). So yes, I like your thinking here very much.

 

This made me think about the Starks who seem to have a whole melting pot of symbolism.  On the surface they are very winter themed (Stark, Grey, Winterfell, Ice, Winter is coming, Kings of Winter, etc. etc.). However, they are actually in opposition to winter... they grow food & flowers even in winter in their glass houses using the geothermal energy, they also use that energy to keep Winterfell a warm place. When winter gets harsh for folks in the North, there is shelter in the winter town outside Winterfell (does it use geothermal energy too?). Warmth & growth in winter.  Fire in ice. This is obviously connected with their past role in being key to The Night's Watch history & success and keeping extremes of winter in check. In terms of their origins, I don't see much direct GEotD symbolism in them but they feel connected to the LH and the Daynes - I like the theory that Dawn is original Ice.  

[Venus414]

On 10/14/2016 at 8:33 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

BlueHue,

That Jon's Stark looks stick out more (at least to the characters thus far) is actually in line with other examples and possible examples of the first issue between Targaryens with typical Targaryen looks and non-Targaryens with dark hair.

* Rhaegar Targaryen + Elia Martell (dark hair) = Princess Rhaenys favors her Dornish mother per an SSM by Martin

* Aegon V Targaryen + Betha Blackwood (dark hair) = Prince Duncan is portrayed with dark hair in TWOIAF picture (not sure whether this is based on Martin's direction, or the artist's interpretation)

* Daeron II Targaryen + Mariah Martell (dark hair) = Prince Baelor "Breakspear" favors his Dornish mother

* Aegon IV Targaryen + Barba Bracken (dark hair) = Aegon "Bittersteel" Rivera favors his Bracken mother 

Bloodraven appears to be an exception, though he still didn't necessarily favor his Targaryen father so much as he was completely albino.

That is not to say that these issue did not have any Targaryen traits, just that they seemed to end up with their mothers' dark hair. But a number of them still had some variation of the typical Targaryen purple or blue eyes, and no doubt had other things about their faces or bodies which were more typical of Targaryens than of their non-Targaryen parent.

In the case of Jon, his eyes are described in Bran's first chapter in AGOT as "a grey so dark they seemed almost black." The description of Young Griff's/Aegon's eyes in one of Tyrion's chapters in ADWD has always reminded me of this: "Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple."

Perhaps Jon does have Targaryen features, but nobody really picks up on them because the hair and eye color, and how the hair color may make the eyes appear, and because he has been hidden away from people most likely to pick up on it? Perhaps, even though he does not appear to have a typical shade of Targaryen eye color, the dark nature of his eye color comes from his Targaryen ancestry?

There is absolutely nothing Targaryen about Jon's appearance.  He's not even described as beautiful, unlike Darkstar.  He is about as "Ice" as it gets.  The only thing that stands out to me are the red eyes of ghost, Mellisandre, Bloodraven (one), and the heart trees.  That I'm aware of- Bloodraven is the only red eyed Targaryen, who is also of Blackwood descent (as are Starks). Jon has no heat tolerance, dragon dreams, madness, or Targaryen features.  (Kit Harrington might, but not Jon imo)

[cgrav]

Jon's Targ-ness is primarily thematic. Appearance would be such an obvious clue as to overshadow the elements of fire and the story's central myth/conflict that creep into Jon's narrative through the five books. Use the text search in Jon's chapters and you'll see that fire keeps showing up in moments of profound importance for Jon.

Overall there's a progression of flame getting closer and closer, culminating in perhaps the most straightforward textual hint that Jon has fire inside him, that his "wound was smoking".

I suspect that more visible signs of his parentage will show up after he's brought back.

 

 

[Lord Martin]

On October 16, 2016 at 1:23 PM, LmL said:

Woo! Glad you liked it @Lord Martin. I was thinking of your "The Starks are not First Men" theory a couple of times in this process. That was just too much of a bomb to drop so I didn't mention it, but most people think the Last Hero was a Stark - he kind of has to be, right? - and if the Last Hero has a connection to Azor Ahai, a blood connection... Then there you have it. It's really seeming more and more like the Starks and Daynes might have an ancient connection. There are a lot of potential parallels involving brothers, many times brothers fighting with each other, so I have to wonder if there was mutiple children of Azor Ahai. The Azor Ahai archetype seems to span so many other character types, like the storm lord and the horned lord and the King of Winter and the OG greenseer, they can't all be one person right? 

You are way too kind @LmL, you're comparing an opus to a drunk singing karaoke.  I guess the one bit that does overlap a slight bit is my note about the red silk from Asshai ending up on the western coast beyond the Wall.  That also suggests there could be an ability to cross from the "far east" to the western coast of Westeros.

I have always assumed the Last Hero was a Stark, it just seems like a Northern tale and ergo a Stark Tale.... but I do now wonder why we have that assumption?  Based on the mythology GRRM is making, it does seem likely.  And there would be a certain amount of symmetry in a Stark (Ned) killing a Dayne (Arthur) to save one of the current embodiments of AA Reborn.

Totally agree they aren't all one person.  I think this is part of how victors re-write history.  So I could see years from now the stories of Jon, Dany and others being mixed up.

To that end, I really can't wait for your podcast on the Night's King.  I am more and more convinced he is a misunderstood character, hated for making the hard choices, sort of like Jaime.  Or I could see his acts pre-resurrection being very different from those post-resurrection.  Sort of like your suggestion that the BSE could have been re-animated as AA and that those acts made him heroic despite the evil he did in his "first life."  That really plays up the Venus morning star/even star dichotomy.

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That point has been raised a couple of times now in response to this video, and I have to say I am open-minded. I am quite sure they must have come by sea, but as to which route... There is enough tantalizing evidence of an "east from Asshai" passage to Westeros via the Sunset Sea, including the Farwynds and other Ironborn legends, that we must entertain this possibility. Most people who have put thought into this have determined that Asshai seems to be roughly halfway around the globe from Westeros, so it's probably pretty close to a wash as far as which way is longer. The west from Asshai route is probably easier, since it provides places to stop along the way. One thing I did point out in my Grey King episode is that if Nagga's bones are in fact a weirwood boat, it's a damn huge boat, as Victarion describes the ribs as being taller than a dromond's mast. That could be a long-distance travel kind of boat, certainly. The landing spots of the GEotD all seem to be clustered on the southwest coast, so that could of course argue in favor of the east from Asshai route.

On the other hand, you can rationalize their landing in the southwest for a west from Asshai route because the Arm of Dorne might not have been broken, and there is no good harbor on the south coast of Dorne. The first good place to land might have been Starfall, and after that, you come to Whispering Sound. 

If they did come west from Asshai through the Summer Sea, they must not have established any colonies until they got to Westeros, and the obvious reason for that is that they found something in Westeros that they could t find elsewhere, which would probably have something to do with the children and the weirwoods and magic, I would think. Of course we also have the oily stone at Yeen and the Basilisks which suggests some kind of ancient builders, perhaps those are connected to the GEotD also.

 

I'll just re-mention the red silk from Asshai on the west coast of Westeros for Mance's cloak.  I actually think that might be a symbol worth exploring.  A red stitch on a black field?  For Mance, that silk was a symbol of his freedom and his humanity... its why he rebelled from his duty and convention.  I think there is some hay to make there.

I also wonder, what other land masses could have existed between Westeros and the far east in the sunset sea.  If the moon meteors ruined the arm of Dorne, why not destroy land elsewhere?  Admittedly I'm still working on getting through your podcasts, so I suspect there is more there in the Grey King/Nagga ones.

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I think the idea of the Rock is more symbolic - it's too big to be a meteor, and wouldn't be filled with gold if it was. It does serve that purpose symbolically though. Lann is a solar fellow who slips inside the rock and fills it with his golden seed - sounds a bit like the sun impregnating the moon with dragon seed. Lann also fills the Rock with demons - or at least, he makes the people think it's haunted, which adds to the parallel with the moon. I have been avoiding the Lannisters for the most part in my series because their symbolism is unique and has to be approached as a topic in its own right, but I do have more to say about them. 

I think you're right. I re-read the WOIAF section on the rock and there is nothing to suggest the Rock came from the sun or moon.  

Lann is an interesting character and I haven't thought about him much.  But it does seem like he could be a GEOTD character.  His story pre-dates the Andal invasion despite being called an Andal.  So perhaps the Casterlys were "First Men" as we think of them, but Lann from the GEOTD.  We do know there is a Weirwood at the Rock which supports the Aziz notion of Weirwoods and families w/ strong genetic traits.  Also the green eyes further the usurpation motif that is often associated with "green" in the series.  

I've been thinking a lot about Jaime and Bran since your Venus episode "Lucifer Means Lightbringer".  I really like the concept of Brienne "revolving" around Jaime as a solar figure.  She is supposed to escort him back "home" to KL sort of like the morning star heralding the sun at Dawn.  Brienne is traveling east from RR to Harrenhal and ultimately KL.  She then spends time away from Jaime before returning to his side.  And then in KL he gives her a sword.

Later, Brienne makes it as far east as she will travel and fights some of the bloody mummers, one of who uses a "morningstar"  She then travels back west before she nearly dies at the hands of biter and is ultimately reunited w/ Jaime.  

The Tarth sigil is full of Venus iconography.  Its a sun quartered w/ a moon.  I am sure there is much more there, but I can't wait to see what you do with it.

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Yeah, I brought this up earlier in my response, perhaps a son of AA or the BSE or both if those are the same person. It seems like the genes of the GEotD mixing with First Men / greenseer blood is the important thing, and I suspect the Daynes and Starks might share some kind of origin story here. Then we also have the story of Brandon the Bloody Blade being a son of Garth the Green to consider. It's hard to say at the moment, but I do think the Starks are connected to AA's bloodline, because the King of Winter has too many AA symbols to ignore. 

KoW does have a lot of AA symbols as you note.  But much of it is inverted too.  AA seems like a champion of fire, odd for a Stark no?  The Hades symbolism for the Starks makes it really complex, i.e., the direwolfs as hellhounds, the warm water "pumping" through the walls, and opposition to frost zombies has some "fire" symbolism.  But relative to other facilities in Westeros, the Starks are "icy."  So perspective matters a lot I think.  I also think the white on grey sigil suggests some level of balance and guarding that balance.

Again, loving all the work, best podcast in a while.  I'll post more when I have some time.  Work's been a bear!

[LmL]

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

Been a while since I posted, but had to come back for this. Great job as always @LmL!

I think it actually took me like 6 hours to go through the whole thing, since I kept pausing so I could have a think.

One person actually complained that the pace was super slow. I thought it was pretty information-filled, but to each his own I suppose. This theory is one of those ones which opens up a lot of new possibilities, so it is conducive to further brainstorming - I take your remark as a compliment. Glad to provide a little something to chew on.

Since you saw my earliest writings, I think you can appreciate how far this basic idea has  come with Aziz's input... I knew that brining it to him was a good way flesh it out and subject it to rational, logical scrutiny. Aziz is pretty skeptical in general, so I figured if I could sell it to him and he failed to poke holes in it, it was probably pretty solid. I am very pleased with how it turned out, Aziz did everything I hoped for it and more. He was a lot of fun to work with, and we did a lot of back and forth on the script.    

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

I remember ages ago having a discussion with you about the Hightower->Dayne connection (Uther/Arthur, father/son). The names are the big trick here because they obscure more than reveal. The Hightowers had to have a name before they built the High Tower, and Dayne is just a hint at "worthy" (in England, that's the etymology of that last name, not a connection to Denmark as often thought). Both names are "descriptive", both hiding the real story.

I see, so you are saying that 'Dayne' ("worthy") and 'Hightower' are descriptive names, something like what a second son or bastard son might name his splinter branch of a house, such as when Daemon Blackfyre took the name of his sword for a house name or how the name "Karstark" evolved. It's logical to think the name meaning 'worthy' might have been hung on the descendants of the Last Hero, and the name Hightower only makes sense with a tower, as you say. Those are good points, and you are right that it might hint at a name which was changed, perhaps when foreign people adopted a new land as their home and perhaps also fight against evil tyrant from their former country. It's understandable that they might want to change their name, right?

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

The other aspect of the name trick is that they're patrilenial in Westeros, and the Westeros patriarchy is as efficient at skewing the worldview as our real life patriarchy is. Like with Aegon the Conq, it took until TWOIAF for us to question his role versus Visenya's, for example. We talk about Targ men marrying their sisters, but all our info on Valyria comes sieved through the maesters' anti-woman bias. Who's to say the daughters weren't the real power in the family, and since they married their brothers, the family name question is irrelevant anyway. I bring this up (the role of dragon women) because I think the female line is much much more important in understanding the dragons than the male line, which neatly escapes notice if you look at Targs' descent the way it's presented for standard Westerosi families (father->son). If Dany is re-acting the original dragon-forging story, can we really imagine a man in her role? Can we imagine a "father of dragons"? A man can't give birth, and the dragons are given birth to (metaphorically), time and again in how the event is referred to. The original dragon line goes back to a woman, not a man. It's the mothers that matter more than fathers.

I follow you, but the father is part of the equation - Azor Ahai, the sun, is the father, the comet is his seed, and with it he impregnates the moon. AA is the father of dragons, but obviously he can't give birth without the mother. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

This is then of course of major relevance for the roles of Alicent Hightower and Diana Dayne, two key points when non-Targ women enter the Targ bloodline, since unlike for the Velaryons, we don't know of any Targ women "en-dragonning" those families (eg somewhat surprisingly, all of Alicent's children AND grandchildren were dragonriders... this to me is a hint that Hightowers have dragonblood, not that the father's blood is more important, as might appear at first glance if you look at this marriage; Rhaenyra's bastard sons were dragonriders, and their father was god knows who). It would be fitting if the seemingly innocuous insertion of Dayne blood through Diana is what reanimated the perhaps extinct dragonblood in the Targ line, and if that old dragonblood (rather than the Valyrian nouveau-dragonblood) was what made Dany special.

You're not the first to suggest this, and it makes a certain amount of sense dot me. To be honest, I really like the idea that either the reintroduction of the Blackwood (greenseer) blood of Black Betha was the key to making someone who could hatch dragons (this is building on the theory that dragonbonding and skinchaning are distant cousins of a sort), but the Dayne blood makes as much if not more sense. And yeah, it's curious that we have Hightower, Blackwood, and Dayne blood into the Targ line before Dany is born. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

But in general, just a great example of things hiding in plain sight, if you consider female lineage instead of the male.

-----------

As for the Long Night and sequence of events... GAH! Such anger, such frustration, it burnsssss

My internal canon (I like that expression btw), which I arrived at prompted by the latest ep:

(1) Geodawnians, as the original FIRST first men, wage war on the Cotf with fire and metal.

I've wondered about this too. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

(2) to fight this, the wood-only Cotf create the Others, as excellent man-killing weapons.

Ditto - the Others might have been created to fight dragon people. We can't assume the dragons will do well in the freezing cold. Even without dragons, the GEotD could simply have played the role we think the FM played in regards to warring on the children. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

(3) to fight the Others, the Geodawnians retaliate by creating dragons -> Nissa Nissa is the original Mother of Dragons. Like Dany will, she died giving birth to her only living son (some roles can't be reversed, only women can be mothers).

This doesn't work for me, because the fused stone at Five Forts and Battle Isle indicates that dragonlords existed for a while prior to the Long Night. And we only hear about the others coming during the Long night - Old Nan specifically says that was the first time they came, during the LN. That could be wrong, but it really seems like dragons existed for a long time before the Long Night. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

(4) this didn't break the moon. The reference in the NN story to her scream cracking the moon implies that her role kicked off the chain of events that lead to the moon eventually being destroyed (or may be a conflated story considering what happens next). Similarly, the BSE didn't worship a literal stone that fell from the sky - he worshipped a dragon, the original Black Dread (thanks to your dragon/meteor metaphor work!).

Well, I really I think he worshipped a creepy meteor. It's perfectly Lovecraft, and many real world cultures do it too, including the Egyptians (the original BenBen) and Muslims to this day (the Kabba stone).  Plus we need meteorite ore to make magic swords with, and there is a ton of evidence for meteors falling in various places. I thin dragons do = meters, and both equal swords or flaming swords, but all of them exist in their own right also - that's the picture I am seeing anyway. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

(5) the Cotf, faced with dragons and having no other weapon (the Others are lethal against men, but against dragons??), destroy the moon. Like in the Doom, the cataclysm destroys dragons (while providing lots of references to a different kind of dragons falling from the sky), and bonus creates a global winter that amplifies the Others' ability to eradicate the Cotf's enemy: men. (And, in a way, Nissa's scream did break the moon -> had there not been dragons, the moon would still be there).

It's a dance of one-upmanship of weapons and destruction: fire -> Others -> dragons -> Long Night. The original song of ice and fire / arms race. This is why I like this order of events, there's a consistency in the escalation.

I understand what you mean, but I do not think that the children broke the moon, or that they even would ever do such a thing. I but them killing men, but not destroying the earth and the moon. I have never, ever bought that, before I did any research or anything, and I think that the signs point towards humans (perhaps human greenseers) being responsible for the moon-breaking. Of course I think it was all one event so who knows.  

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

(6) I agree *somehow* the Cotf lost control of the Others. That's the only reason they'd sign the Pact / help the LH.

Yes, I think this makes a lot of sense, and from the humans POV, the children might have been the main reason most of them survived the Long Night at all, which would explain the FM taking up a new religion. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

My thoughts, again indebted to discussions with you about the role of all the "Greenseer" hints, run to a man who was a Cotf/man mix (not dragonblooded), who became a powerful Greenseer (at the Ravenry?) and seized control of the Others from the Cotf. However he then turned on both the men and the Cotf (he's the original Night's King?); and indeed, both groups were guilty for nearly destroying the world through either dragons or a cataclysm (so maybe our NK fella is the ultimate good guy). 

Interesting... I do think the NK might have been a greaser, and that greenseer humans were kings in the Dawn Age / Age of Heroes. I plan to write on that subject, and @Wizz-The-Smith wrote a really great essay on caves and hollow hills which relates to that idea as well, you should check that out. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

(7) the LH had to have been of dragonblood/Cotf lineage. The Cotf blood is the "ice blood" in the ice/fire blood mix - it refers to blood that has some power over the Others, like fire blood has some sort of power over the dragons. 

I disagree, I think the cotf are neutral, or fire affiliated. Greenseers who control the Others would have had to mutate themselves, I think. Melisandre works with fire and is becoming a being that subsists on fire magic, and I think it would be the same for any ice sorcerers, or sorceresses like the Corpse Queen of the NK.

If one of those children of the NK and Corpse Queen escaped, like Gilly's son Aemon Battleborn, and this "should-have-been-an-Other" became the first Stark, well... then the Stark blood would be cold in a sense. Thus Jon is, as many think, the realization of ice and fire. 

But I digress. You were saying?

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

We know the LH has a Dayne connection (but see my final comment below), and we "know" the Daynes are of the Hightowers, who we "know" are of the Geodawnian dragon bloodline - though I see more generations here, rather than BSE->LH as father->son (there is also a rebellion story here, since the first Hightower destroyed the dragons on Battle Isle: so he rebelled against his own parentage, like a good son of AA would).

(8) the part I find the hardest to unravel is whether there were two battles or just one. There was no battle to end the Long Night (the atmospheric fuckup had to clear up by itself), but there could have been a battle (at Winterfell?) to break the Night's King power. BUT, was there also, and before this, a battle at Battle Isle to destroy the remaining Geodawnian dragonlords? Is this why the Cotf even considered helping the LH against the Others (now that the fire threat is well and truly subdued)? Is this the "rebellion" and the story of the first Hightower clearing Battle Isle of "dragons"?

Yes, more or less, that's my view. The BSE / AA invaded at Battle Isle, was defeated and / or humbled. Perhaps killed and resurrected, perhaps they just took his sword to use against the Others. But yeah, this would be the initial battle, where the dragonlords were turned back by native Westerosi and "Amethyst Empress loyalists," which is how I would see Daynes and Hightowers. After this, the fire sword of AA had to be taken north and used against the ice demons. It might have been broken and reforged in the process. The comes the final battle or whatever the Last Hero did wit the Others behind closed doors...

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

(9) the Stark was a Cotf/man mix, and his role was to be the guarantee for the Cotf - there must always be a Stark at Winterfell or the Cotf will consider the Pact broken. It's not a piece of good advice in case winter comes, it's a threat of what will happen if the guarantee is broken. He may have been the Greenseer/NK's actual brother (their bloodlines are both Cotf/man, but not Cotf/dragonlord like the LH).

All possible, it's fun to speculate.  House Stark is connected to the NK and maybe the LH, but i think that one or both had the blood of the dragon. That's why I like the idea of the Stark line as we know it being continued by an escaped son of the NK who  was supposed to be an Other. Born of the CQ, she of cold, moon pale skin, this child would have a touch of the cold in them. But being dragon blooded, they initially had fire magic... so when the NK puts his fiery seed in the cold womb of the CQ, we get... frozen fire, of a sort. That's how I see Jon, and that's how I see the Others - fire that has been turned cold, but still burns. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

(10) I don't think the LH had children, or at least that he wasn't the direct progenitor of House Dayne (this role was played by a full-dragonblooded half-sibling of his). Why? If the LH had had children, the special Cotf/dragonlord (or ice/fire blood if you will) blood would be passed down, instead of having to be recreated in the person of Jon. I think a hint of this is that Dawn isn't passed father to son, but to a worthy heir; since the LH didn't have children, it's how he would have passed it as well (to a nephew), starting the tradition. Arthur Dayne, of course, is the uncle to the current Dayne lord

Those are are good points actually, I'll have to think about that. We do have example of sets of brothers, like the bros Baratheon and Rob and Jon and Bran. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:44 AM, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

@LmL, if you made it this far without exploding from rage at my incorrect assumptions or falling asleep, please pick this apart for where you reckon things don't work from a meta PoV.

 

LoL, it's great to here from you man, you're a real OG. You read my first essay ever, and I hit I even messaged you before I wrote it because you were on to a few of the same topics. Cheers man. 

[LordImp]

Quote

" Once Azor Ahai fought a monster . When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast , its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth. Its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks , and its body burst into flame ". ADWD , Jon III. 

[LordImp]

Sorry for this , i was only able to post the quote . 

But what i wanted to say is that according the quote above , it seems that AA killed a dragon or is the monster with boiling blood something else , a other perhaps ? 

[cgrav]

3 hours ago, LordImp said:

Sorry for this , i was only able to post the quote . 

But what i wanted to say is that according the quote above , it seems that AA killed a dragon or is the monster with boiling blood something else , a other perhaps ? 

When Sam killed the Other it melted, but didn't burst into flame. It sound kind of like a dragon, but dragons are already "fire made flesh", and we see Drogon's blood is always steaming. Plus, we have every indication that Asshai'i were into dragons, so probably wouldn't slay them as generic monsters. 

But early on in the books, both dragons and direwolves are referred to as "monsters" on many occasions. There's also mention of griffins and manticores. Of course, it's people who are called monsters more than anything else. And when Drogon burns Kraznys, we do get that "eyes melting" thing that gets repeated.

And in terms of the mythical astronomy it's a good description of the moon being demolished by the celestial Lightbringer/comet.

 

[LordImp]

2 hours ago, cgrav said:

When Sam killed the Other it melted, but didn't burst into flame. It sound kind of like a dragon, but dragons are already "fire made flesh", and we see Drogon's blood is always steaming. Plus, we have every indication that Asshai'i were into dragons, so probably wouldn't slay them as generic monsters. 

But early on in the books, both dragons and direwolves are referred to as "monsters" on many occasions. There's also mention of griffins and manticores. Of course, it's people who are called monsters more than anything else. And when Drogon burns Kraznys, we do get that "eyes melting" thing that gets repeated.

And in terms of the mythical astronomy it's a good description of the moon being demolished by the celestial Lightbringer/comet.

 

Yeah , it dosent makes sense that AA would kill a dragon . But maybe it was a ice dragon ? 

But as you said , it does match well with the destruction of the moon . 

[LmL]

@cgrav, that's how I see it in mythical astronomy terms - the boiling moon blood / boiling blood is a major feature of any Lightbringer stabbing. Mel's blood is blackened and seared by the fire inside her, Dany dreams of her blood boiling in AGOT, etc etc. It works well with the idea of the flood of bleeding, fiery stars - it's fire and blood, just combined. Literally burning blood, or figurative moon blood which burns. 

@LordImp, as for killing dragons, I think the sword that does that would the one made of ice, the original Ice, now known as Dawn. 

I'm actually not sure at all that Dawn = original ice, but, if it IS, then that is the sword that should kill dragons. Black swords forged in fire probably kill Others, so... maybe white icy swords kill dragons? 

Or perhaps the perfect weapon combines ice and fire and kills everything. Ha. 

Anyway, if there is a sword to slay dragons, I vote for Dawn. 

[Bael's Bastard]

@LmL

I imagine you might have explored this before, but wanted to drop it here just in case. Obviously Starks aren't the only rulers who can make stone statues of themselves, but the nine other references to "stone kings" (many of which refer to them on their thrones) in the books refer to the rulers in the Stark crypts. Perhaps the Dothraki have some Essosi Stark ancestors among their captured gods and statues?

 

Quote

 

Beyond the horse gate, plundered gods and stolen heroes loomed to either side of them. The forgotten deities of dead cities brandished their broken thunderbolts at the sky as Dany rode her silver past their feet. Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mists of time. Lithe young maidens danced on marble plinths, draped only in flowers, or poured air from shattered jars. Monsters stood in the grass beside the road; black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name. Some of the statues were so lovely they took her breath away, others so misshapen and terrible that Dany could scarcely bear to look at them. Those, Ser Jorah said, had likely come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. 

"So many," she said as her silver stepped slowly onward, "and from so many lands."

AGOT - Dany IV

 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

I am completely on board with the idea that the Daynes and Hightowers are a surviving branch of the Geo-Dawn that took a stand against the Bloodstone Emperor and his fledgling Valyrian Empire. The myth about dragon-slaying Hightowers to me means precisely this; I think that there may or may not have been actual dragons there, as we have seen that 'dragon' means both the creatures and dragon-blooded people. 

There's a phenomenon you see in archaeology, history, and especially linguistics called 'survival on the periphery,' in which traditions from a culture are preserved especially well in the border regions. The culture will evolve (or the empire may crumble) especially fast at the centre, but that sort of change may not ripple all the way out to the edges. So if you want to find Amethyst Empire loyalists, the border region, Westeros, is a great place to find it. 

What is really baking my noodle is thinking of what went on at the stone fortress that became the High Tower in the lead-up to the Long Night. I am of the opinion that it was a border fortress, but what was up there? The obvious answer, the Others, doesn't quite fit if they didn't appear until the Long Night. So what the hell was up there? 

God I love this stuff!