Dragonslords, in Westeros, in the Dawn Age - How Azor Ahai Came to Westeros

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

On 31/10/2016 at 5:40 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

I imagine it has been discussed at some point, but do you see any scenario in which Ned actually kills Arthur with Dawn?

Arthur falling to Dawn might dovetail with a thought I had about what sets Dawn apart from "ordinary" Valyrian steel.

We've heard all about the scary black swords that drink the souls of those they slay (TWOIAF about the Ironborn), and all the stuff about Qohor killing children to reforge V steel... So, taking/stealing a life with V steel = makes it special, perhaps not only in how it's forged, but in maintaining its special features (every time you kill with it, it eats a soul to fuel its magic). This may not be known widely or at all in Westeros, or it might not be properly understood.

Dawn is said to look completely different, and there's obviously a few things about how it's handed down that set it apart from other swords. I wondered if what keeps Dawn "special" is that, instead of taking the strength of those its wielder slays, what happens is that each SotM swears an oath to, literally, fall on his sword in the end. That is, his ultimate "worthiness" is demonstrated by taking his own life with Dawn, in a WILLING sacrifice to reinforce Dawn's magic - in starkest contrast to the kind of unwilling sacrifice that V steel is forged in. Finding a guy THAT worthy, trusting that he would - now that would be a serious mission for a single family over 10,000 years.

But if true, then if Arthur gave his life to Dawn (even if Ned was wielding it at the time), Ned would have actually been completing Arthur's journey as SotM.

I have nothing hard to back this up with, other than needing to understand what makes Dawn "different" to V steel, taking into account the need for this particularly worthy man to wield it. A very worthy person would probably have some doubts about wielding true V steel, if they had full knowledge about how it's forged and what it potentially does when it kills.

And there is that pesky part of the AA story where Nissa Nissa bares her breast apparently willingly. Among these circles, it's generally understood that this is an embellishment, and I don't necessarily disagree - but it does make me think about the idea of "willing" sacrifice more broadly. If Dawn was forged by Nissa Nissa's willing sacrifice, then Valyrian steel would be a dark and evil mockery of that, while Dawn's magical properties are kept "pure" by a worthy man's sacrifice of his own life.

Of course Dawn has presumably also been used to kill (in normal sword fights), but maybe at those times it's just a sharp sword, versus V steel that would "feed" on the slain in those moments.

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

Arthur falling to Dawn might dovetail with a thought I had about what sets Dawn apart from "ordinary" Valyrian steel.

We've heard all about the scary black swords that drink the souls of those they slay (TWOIAF about the Ironborn), and all the stuff about Qohor killing children to reforge V steel... So, taking/stealing a life with V steel = makes it special, perhaps not only in how it's forged, but in maintaining its special features (every time you kill with it, it eats a soul to fuel its magic). This may not be known widely or at all in Westeros, or it might not be properly understood.

Dawn is said to look completely different, and there's obviously a few things about how it's handed down that set it apart from other swords. I wondered if what keeps Dawn "special" is that, instead of taking the strength of those its wielder slays, what happens is that each SotM swears an oath to, literally, fall on his sword in the end. That is, his ultimate "worthiness" is demonstrated by taking his own life with Dawn, in a WILLING sacrifice to reinforce Dawn's magic - in starkest contrast to the kind of unwilling sacrifice that V steel is forged in. Finding a guy THAT worthy, trusting that he would - now that would be a serious mission for a single family over 10,000 years.

But if true, then if Arthur gave his life to Dawn (even if Ned was wielding it at the time), Ned would have actually been completing Arthur's journey as SotM.

I have nothing hard to back this up with, other than needing to understand what makes Dawn "different" to V steel, taking into account the need for this particularly worthy man to wield it. A very worthy person would probably have some doubts about wielding true V steel, if they had full knowledge about how it's forged and what it potentially does when it kills.

And there is that pesky part of the AA story where Nissa Nissa bares her breast apparently willingly. Among these circles, it's generally understood that this is an embellishment, and I don't necessarily disagree - but it does make me think about the idea of "willing" sacrifice more broadly. If Dawn was forged by Nissa Nissa's willing sacrifice, then Valyrian steel would be a dark and evil mockery of that, while Dawn's magical properties are kept "pure" by a worthy man's sacrifice of his own life.

Of course Dawn has presumably also been used to kill (in normal sword fights), but maybe at those times it's just a sharp sword, versus V steel that would "feed" on the slain in those moments.

I follow you here, though I tend to think Dawn might no have any blood magic at all, making it a total opposite. I could just be looking at the color symbolism and seeing white as unsullied. But I also would like to believe you can make a magic sword without human sacrifice. Could be wishful thinking but I have never bought the idea of someone sacrificing themselves to make a hero sword. It is present in world myth however so that may well be the case. I just think if it's been used in blood magic the color would not be white. 

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

finally got around watching this. (podcasts are not my thing)

fingerprints of the Dawn should be your opening material IMHO. the logic is indisputable, the evidence presented just makes too much sense and some of the key elements are present even since AGOT (the gemstone emperors in danys dream was, until your theory, one of the most mysterious passages in the series). And once the premise of a ancient and lost civilization of dragonlords is well established, then its easier to develop the rest of your theory.

Not much more to say, we discussed most of this a long time ago.

 

Though i wonder why you didn`t include Garth Greenhand as one of the likely Geodawnians in Westeros.

 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

finally got around watching this. (podcasts are not my thing)

fingerprints of the Dawn should be your opening material IMHO. the logic is indisputable, the evidence presented just makes too much sense and some of the key elements are present even since AGOT (the gemstone emperors in danys dream was, until your theory, one of the most mysterious passages in the series). And once the premise of a ancient and lost civilization of dragonlords is well established, then its easier to develop the rest of your theory.

I feel you; Aziz and I went back and forth with the arrangement many times. There are many ways it could have been ordered, and I think did make the case for leading with that info. Just not how it shook out.  

Also, this was really a continuation of our Asshai episode, so we talked about Dawn age dragonlords and dragon sign in Asshai already in that one to set this one up. That episode is available on their youtube and in my podcast feed.  

3 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Not much more to say, we discussed most of this a long time ago.

Indeed, though the Hightower and Ironborn info wasn't in the first version. Basically this was the updated, comprehensive version of these ideas, and designed for a wider audience. I really wanted to get these ideas into the mainstream, that's one of the reasons why I took this stuff to History of Westeros. 

3 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

 

Though i wonder why you didn`t include Garth Greenhand as one of the likely Geodawnians in Westeros.

 

Because it was already super long and the evidence for Garth is a whole new subject which requires tracing out the horned lords and Old Ones and a bunch of other crap. I mean i guess we could have thrown it out as a possibility but we were already having to cut things as it was. 

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

20 hours ago, LmL said:

Indeed, though the Hightower and Ironborn info wasn't in the first version. Basically this was the updated, comprehensive version of these ideas, and designed for a wider audience. I really wanted to get these ideas into the mainstream, that's one of the reasons why I took this stuff to History of Westeros. 

Because it was already super long and the evidence for Garth is a whole new subject which requires tracing out the horned lords and Old Ones and a bunch of other crap. I mean i guess we could have thrown it out as a possibility but we were already having to cut things as it was. 

 

The hightower are almost as strong candidates as the Daynes. Ironborn on the other hand, im not overly convinced. The grey king, sure. Current ironborn on the other hand..

I think in this podcast one of you said there was no pshicial traits inherited from the  Deep ones  in the iron islands like there are in the thousand islands, or in the three sisters

There is in fact.  just one example as far as i know that helps the theory of ironborn descendants of Deep ones.

"Is that a threat?" One of the Codds pushed to his feet. A big man, but pop-eyed and wide of mouth, with dead white flesh. He looked as if his father had sired him on a fish, but he still wore a longsword. "Dagon Codd yields to no man."

 

On Garth, i agree. he deserves an essay.

im curious how you relate him to the Old Ones of Leng (/mazemakers imho).

 

[Cleaver the Confused]

This is my first ever post (go easy on me!), after a few months of lurking and long, loooooooong hours of trawling through the tinfoil to find the theories and ideas that I feel make sense. I watched the GEotD History of Westeros video a few weeks ago and loved it, especially as I don't own the World book so all that stuff is largely new to me. 

I thought one of your best catches in the video was linking the jewel-eyed kings in Dany's dream to the succession of semi-divine rulers of the GEotD, each named for a jewel. Those guys in Dany's dream had always puzzled me, as the eyes didn't really sound like Targs, so to me your theory really rings true.

I'm currently on my first re-read (hence the theory-trawling) and a possibility jumped out at me related to the GEotD stuff that I don't think (apologies if I'm wrong) anyone has touched on yet. At some point I may try and write it up in a properly systematic way, but for now I thought I'd share it here in embryonic form.

So...

TL;DR - Can the origins of Faith of the Seven be linked to the ruling dynasty of the Great Empire of the Dawn?

I've always thought that amidst all the myriad magical and mysterious religions and traditions that exist across Planetos, the Faith of the Seven comes across as pretty dull and decidedly unmagical. I'd previously assumed that GRRM put it in there purely as a parallel to Christianity (esp. Catholicism, given his background), hence its obsession with sin, modesty, repentance etc. Recently though, I've begun to wonder if it all stems from those silly Andals trying (and mostly failing) to make sense of some extraordinary events in their distant past, which seem to have directly sparked their rise from minor iron-age Essossi tribe to fearsome conquerors of an entire continent.

Seven on tour...

So what do we know about the origins of the Seven? The Andals are said to have started worshipping the Seven when they appeared in human form amongst the hills of Andalos. It's also said that the Father plucked seven stars from heaven which he placed on the head of Hugor of the Hill (first Andal king) to form his crown. The colours of these stars are not referred to in the legends as we hear them, but in the Westerosi Faith we know that the Seven are often represented by seven colours (rainbow belts, rainbow shields, crystals refracting rainbow light etc.), so it's no big leap to theorise that each 'star' was of a different colour, and represented one of the seven aspects of god, and therefore one of the seven visitors in human form.

So we have seven human-form visitors whom the Andals immediately took to be gods, associated with seven stars, and the Westerosi Faith as we know it in the 'present day' being obsessed with crystals and rainbows.

Who were they really?

When I read about the Seven originally appearing in human form (I think in an early Tyrion chapter in ADWD), I couldn't help but think of the Great Empire dynasty, who were descended from the God-on-Earth, quite literally a god in human form. Then I thought, hold on, how many were there? According to the wiki, after the initial god-man himself, there were seven 'good' (we assume) rulers before the nasty evil Bloodstone Emperor - Pearl, Jade, Tourmaline, Onyx, Topaz, Opal and Amethyst.

OK, so to get that magic number seven you have to leave out the god-man and the evil dude, but that kinda makes sense - a full god, followed by the seven 'aspects' of god, followed by an evil dude who went against everything they stood for, nearly destroyed the world (first LN) and ultimately ended the GEotD.

Each ruler was associated with a precious stone, and each of the Seven was associated with a star - both bright sparkly objects often revered by humans. Now, I'm no gemstone expert, but I know jade is green and amethyst is purple, so I had excitedly assumed each of the other named jewels must have a specific colour. Sadly, a quick google reveals that most come in a variety of colours depending on the conditions of their formation, though some do tend to one colour more than others. Perhaps this doesn't matter too much - GRRM, or the people of the Great Empire, may have had specific colours in mind when they came up with those names, and in the Westerosi Faith we are never told what the seven colours are nor which of the Seven they relate to.

The other niggle is that there were six Emperors and an Empress, whereas the Seven are three guys, three gals and an androgynous weirdo. Various ways around this I guess - could just be the way they appeared to the Andals, or perhaps Warrior, Smith, Maiden, Crone etc. were details that were fleshed out as it developed into an organised religion.

So, colours and genders aside, the important point is that we have seven different stars and seven different gemstone rulers and seven visitors to Andalos in human form.

We know that after the LN, the Empire never recovered and the resulting groups of survivors went their separate ways across Planetos, eventually becoming the present-day cultures with which we are familiar. Sooooooo, if the Andals were one such remnant of the Empire however many 1000s of years down the line, is it possible their seven supernatural visitors were actually their long-lost god-rulers singling them out for some special attention for some mysterious reason?

What were they up to?

Now, why, of all the remnants of the Empire scattered all across the world, would this posse of god-kings have singled out the Andals? Well, who knows? But we do know that they didn't just wow them with a few miracles and bugger off - according to the Seven-Pointed Star they promised them 'kingdoms in a foreign land', which inspired the Andals to begin their conquest of Westeros.

The thing that has always puzzled me most about the Faith of the Seven is why a religion which emphasises modesty, disapproves of magic and was started by a war-like proto-culture would be so readily adopted by the Targaryens, a super-noble, super-advanced race of dragon-riding sorcerers who are often considered a bit god-like themselves?

We take it from Dany's vision that these jewel-eyed dudes were her ancient ancestors, and we know that dragonlords from GEotD may have passed on knowledge to the Valyrians. Soooooo if the jewel-eyed dudes were also the Seven, perhaps in their deific wisdom they were somehow sending the Andals with their religion to prepare Westeros for the arrival of the Targaryens, whose line would eventually birth the reincarnation of the Amethyst Empress; but this time she would have the spiritual arsenal at her disposal to defeat her Bloodstone nemesis. Or perhaps they were sending the Andals for a more mysterious reason and just happened to spawn an organised religion in the process?

 

This whole theory is largely based on myths and legends of which we get scarce details in the text, but what good theory isn't? I know it has some holes and leaps, and I have lots of related thoughts which I haven't gone into here, but I'd be interested to hear what others think, especially you LmL as you seem like a pretty clued-up individual!

Thanks for reading

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

The Seven "stars" are the moon and the planets visible with the naked eye, plus the Stranger (probably the comet that killed the other moon). These "stars" are called the "wanderers" and there's clues scattered throughout the text that these wandering stars really mirror the visible "planets" from our world.  

If I'm following you, you say actual god-like people came down to the Andals and "chose" them? I think it's more likely that this is a myth-memory belonging to one of the groups of men who survived the Long Night and later happened to become the Andals. The memory of the Seven gods "appearing" to them is rooted in the end of the Long Night, as the atmospheric cloud after the moon-meteor collisions cleared and the stars became visible again, including the six wanderers. Their appearance would have been like a herald of some semblance of order re-establishing itself, so this particular group of survivors built their religion around it. In retellings, the reappearance of the wanderers became literally interpreted as the Seven appearing to the Andals in the flesh.

The Faith *may* be related to the pre-Bloodstone Emperor religion of the GEotD - making the Faith a reinvented original religion - but you'd need to be able to link up those emperor colours to the planets. Perhaps what we know as the Stranger used to be deity representing the second moon, so now it stands in for death. We also don't know what the original Emperors and Empress stood for - rulers, dynasties? Maybe astrological ages of some kind? If you could tie each one to one of the planets, then perhaps the Geodawnians had a way of calculating time that meant certain long periods were marked by one specific planet/wandering star (eg the age of Venus might be the reign of the Pearl Emperor, for example...).

I used to think the Faith was sinister because it had a secret link with the suspicious Church of Starry Wisdom, but now I don't know - I think they might be in opposition to each other.  The BSE instituted the Church of Starry Wisdom, which is another celestial based religion.  I think (I've argued this before), given its connection with sailors, and it's name "Starry wisdom", it was focused on the fixed stars rather than the wanderers, because it was really about celestial navigation. In the real world, the discovery of celestial navigation was a near-sorcerous leap in technology, and it would have allowed conquests across the ocean for the first time. 

You could also see how the BSE's new religion might be heretical to the old one - both worship "stars", but he casts away the true gods (the wandering stars) to worship the fixed stars because of the "wisdom" (celestial navigation enabling his conquests, and potential the arrival on Westeros) that they grant him. 

This is all highly speculative. It seems the key is the names of the Gemstone Emperors, but no one has produced a fully convincing interpretation of those gems.

As for the Targs accepting the Faith - they were Valyrian. The world book says the dragonlords allowed the worship of all gods, but feared none. Easy enough for Aegon and sisters to pretend-convert, to be more appealing as rulers. It's not like they ended their incestuous marriages and repented - how deep was the conversion anyway? 

[cgrav]

I too have wondered what role early science might have had in the prophecies of the current stories. Not only is navigation significant, but the ability to predict celestial phenomena would seem like future-telling to a person not trained in "starry wisdom". If some ancient genius astronomer figured out the periodicity of, say, a comet and was proven right, most people would probably take him/her for a prophet.

[Cleaver the Confused]

15 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

 

The Seven "stars" are the moon and the planets visible with the naked eye, plus the Stranger (probably the comet that killed the other moon). These "stars" are called the "wanderers" and there's clues scattered throughout the text that these wandering stars really mirror the visible "planets" from our world.

 

Makes sense.

15 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

If I'm following you, you say actual god-like people came down to the Andals and "chose" them? I think it's more likely that this is a myth-memory belonging to one of the groups of men who survived the Long Night and later happened to become the Andals. The memory of the Seven gods "appearing" to them is rooted in the end of the Long Night, as the atmospheric cloud after the moon-meteor collisions cleared and the stars became visible again, including the six wanderers. Their appearance would have been like a herald of some semblance of order re-establishing itself, so this particular group of survivors built their religion around it. In retellings, the reappearance of the wanderers became literally interpreted as the Seven appearing to the Andals in the flesh.

I know what you're saying, and definitely agree that most accounts of ancient events in religious doctrine (both in ASOIAF and the real world) are simply the way that culture interpreted what they lacked the scientific knowledge to truly understand, and that interpretation is then embellished and corrupted as the centuries pass and the culture develops.

This could well be the case here, but what jumped out at me was the specific reference to the gods appearing in human form amongst the hills of Andalos. This is mentioned twice in the novels (I think) and I'm guessing is in the World book too. I can't recall any other accounts of gods from other religions appearing in human form, except for the god-emperors of the GEotD, and I wondered if GRRM had a reason for this beyond just world-building.

15 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

The Faith *may* be related to the pre-Bloodstone Emperor religion of the GEotD - making the Faith a reinvented original religion - but you'd need to be able to link up those emperor colours to the planets. Perhaps what we know as the Stranger used to be deity representing the second moon, so now it stands in for death. We also don't know what the original Emperors and Empress stood for - rulers, dynasties? Maybe astrological ages of some kind? If you could tie each one to one of the planets, then perhaps the Geodawnians had a way of calculating time that meant certain long periods were marked by one specific planet/wandering star (eg the age of Venus might be the reign of the Pearl Emperor, for example...).

The GEotD was obviously a real empire with real physical rulers, even if the gemstone 'emperors' we read about in the World book represent successive dynasties rather than individual people. And this is a fantasy series - though I do buy into the astrological take on a lot of Planetosi myth, I don't think we can rule out the possibility that these rulers were somehow more than human (as the Targs/Valyrians seem to be).

If you give any credence to the (I think quite likely) theory that Dany and Euron are reincarnations or ancestors of the Amethyst Empress and Bloodstone Emperor, well, we know they are real physical people, so surely we can assume that their historical counterparts were as well? 

15 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

I used to think the Faith was sinister because it had a secret link with the suspicious Church of Starry Wisdom, but now I don't know - I think they might be in opposition to each other.  The BSE instituted the Church of Starry Wisdom, which is another celestial based religion.  I think (I've argued this before), given its connection with sailors, and it's name "Starry wisdom", it was focused on the fixed stars rather than the wanderers, because it was really about celestial navigation. In the real world, the discovery of celestial navigation was a near-sorcerous leap in technology, and it would have allowed conquests across the ocean for the first time. 

You could also see how the BSE's new religion might be heretical to the old one - both worship "stars", but he casts away the true gods (the wandering stars) to worship the fixed stars because of the "wisdom" (celestial navigation enabling his conquests, and potential the arrival on Westeros) that they grant him. 

Very interesting ideas there. Not much to add, but I'd love it if the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom was more than just a nod to Lovecraft. If the Bloodstone Emperor is going to become as important as a lot of people seem to think, surely the cult he purportedly founded is important too?

15 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

This is all highly speculative. It seems the key is the names of the Gemstone Emperors, but no one has produced a fully convincing interpretation of those gems.

...and that's not something I'm about to attempt! But I do think the fact that the gems/colours directly relate to their eyes is important. Eye colour is probably the most frequently described physical feature in ASOIAF, and 'special' bloodlines and individual characters are almost always marked by a unique eye colour. Dany's are the only eyes ever described as 'amethyst', and there is definitely something weird going on with the eye under Euron's hipster eyepatch (seems to be more than straight black - a bloodstoney kind of colour maybe? There are lots of descriptions of actual blood appearing black in the text).

16 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

As for the Targs accepting the Faith - they were Valyrian. The world book says the dragonlords allowed the worship of all gods, but feared none. Easy enough for Aegon and sisters to pretend-convert, to be more appealing as rulers. It's not like they ended their incestuous marriages and repented - how deep was the conversion anyway? 

Fair point! Still, even if Aegon and co. weren't aware of any significance to the Faith of the Seven and merely converted as a political ploy to help win over their new subjects, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't significant.

I must stress that I am far from convinced of my own ramblings here - I just wanted to throw some ideas out there for discussion. Even if GRRM does intend the Faith to be more than it seems, I'm doubtful we will ever get a clear explanation in the last two books (if indeed we ever get the last two books at all! :sobs quietly into coffee: ).

[Cleaver the Confused]

16 hours ago, Lord_Pepsi_Cupps said:

The Seven "stars" are the moon and the planets visible with the naked eye, plus the Stranger (probably the comet that killed the other moon). These "stars" are called the "wanderers" and there's clues scattered throughout the text that these wandering stars really mirror the visible "planets" from our world.

Is this speculation or actually confirmed in the text? I mean, do we know there are five "wanderers" or visible planets? Or just guessing? Also, the moon is a pretty different celestial object to a planet/star, in apparent size let alone anything else. I'm guessing you're assuming the moon would either be the Maiden or the Mother, but in that case why is it not treated differently to the other "stars" in its personification as one of the Seven?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

IIRC the founder of the Faith of the Seven had an alternative name that sounded a lot like Azor Ahai. He might have been another Geodawnian wanderer.

[Cleaver the Confused]

2 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

 

IIRC the founder of the Faith of the Seven had an alternative name that sounded a lot like Azor Ahai. He might have been another Geodawnian wanderer.

 

Yeah, Hugor of the Hill may also have been Hukko. The bit about sacrificing the swan maidens in the wiki is kind of interesting - some kind of blood magic? Could be that was the local variation on Azor Ahai, as it seems the guy who ended the first Long Night either got about a bit, or there was a lot more than one of him/her, or it was not actually a person at all but something else (heavenly body, magical force, whatever) that has become personified in myth.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

36 minutes ago, Cleaver the Confused said:

Yeah, Hugor of the Hill may also have been Hukko. The bit about sacrificing the swan maidens in the wiki is kind of interesting - some kind of blood magic? Could be that was the local variation on Azor Ahai, as it seems the guy who ended the first Long Night either got about a bit, or there was a lot more than one of him/her, or it was not actually a person at all but something else (heavenly body, magical force, whatever) that has become personified in myth.

mmm doesn`t sound much geodawnian.

i think i got mistaken with the one that founded Sarnor.

 

[LordImp]

16 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

mmm doesn`t sound much geodawnian.

i think i got mistaken with the one that founded Sarnor.

 

Huzhor Humai or something ? 

[LordImp]

I wonder if Euron will become the new Bloodstone Emperor . I think he will release the horrors of Asshai upon Westeros .

Read PoorQuentyns Eldritch Apocalypse theory . 

[Bluetiger]

Hukko might be reference to Finish god called Ukko ('grandfather'), lord of sky, thunder, weather and harvest...

Harvest... Where have we seen harvest rituals of possibly Andal origin... Oh yes, Pentos...

From Wikipedia's entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukko?wprov=sfla1

Quote

It is possible that when Ukko took the position of the preceding sky god Ilmarinen, Ilmarinen's destiny was to become a mortal smith-hero.

 Stories tell about Ilmarinen vaulting the sky-dome. Whether Ilmarinen was an earlier, assumably Uralic sky deity is regardless highly questionable. Some researchers hold Ilmarinen and Ukko equivalent

Smith god-hero... I thinh we've seen this one before.

Quote

Ukko possessed a weapon, often a hammer called Ukonvasara (English: Ukko's hammer), sometimes also an axe (Finnish: Ukonkirves) or a sword, by which he struck lightning (see thunderbolt). Ukko's weapon was largely comparable to the Norse Mjölnir, and Iron Age emblematic pendants depicting hammers and axes similar or identical to Scandinavian specimens have been unearthed in Finland. Like Mjölnir, Ukko's weapon has been linked by some to the boat-shaped battle axes  of the Corded Ware culture.

Well... 

Quote

Thunderstorms were sometimes interpreted as result of Ukko copulating with his wife Akka (Finnish: Old woman).He also was believed to cause thunderstorms by driving his chariot through the skies.

A viper with a serrated line on its back was considered a symbol of thunder. Neolithic stone carvings have been found in Russian Karelia which have features of both snakes and lightning. It is, however, uncertain whether these are directly connected to the figure of Ukko. Evidence for worship of snakes is found among different cultures around the Baltic, amongst them Estonians and Finns.

There is evidence that the rowan tree was held sacred to Ukko. Rauni, a vaguely defined being has been hypothesised to be cognate to Germanic words for the rowan tree through Old Norse *raunir.

The ladybird was also considered sacred to Ukko and called ukonlehmä (English: Ukko's cow).

 

[Ser Creighton]

Hey LML, been awhile, watching your video, about an hour in. I am going to give my take on some things, and try to go from there if work stays calm for a bit. Not been calm, not in the least. So this is what I see within the parallels of the Empire of the dawn, sometimes things are not always what they appear, some things may seem obvious and sometimes not so much.

I know you are a big fan of the Ouroboros, so that is sort of how I am going to do this, weather someone wants to call it Ouroboros, Sun and Moon, Juxtaposed, alchemist transformation, yin yang dichotomy, whatever, doesn't matter, it's all pretty much the same. This is going to be a really weird starting point but it's important for understanding that period, at least I think.

You sort of have like 2 1/2 elements, Ice, Fire, and Water. Water never gets enough credit, yet we know it is a Magic in the world, and just kind of gets overlooked, not by everyone but you know what I mean. Now I know you did a whole video on the ancient Iron Born, and that sort of led me down this path. I am going to start with Thrones because Thrones is like the gift that keeps on giving. Sun, moon and water, or Fire, Ice, and water, does not matter. Pretty much interchangeable.

So you take the Ouroboros as a primary symbol. I know I don't need to explain that to you, there it is all done. So there is this idea of Dany and the Amethyst Empress, is that right? Sort of probably. But the real questions for me is did this sort of parallel happen? Is it the same story?

Sort of, and this is where that alchemic transformation meets a parallel, and this happens a lot. Now Martin tends to base these transformations off character choices. He throws in the law of untended consequences, boons and busts and non factors all play role.

"And so it begins, no and now it ends". Similar to an Ouroboros the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end, and it was this line and water, and that video you did on the Iron born and the water dragon, and my own stuff and poetry and all kinds of things that led me to this next line, not from the books.

So Martin loves poetry and he has talked about that.

"In my end is my beginning" T.S Eliot, the Four Quartets. So this in turn led me to something else. A fountain. Just real quick I know your probably wondering how this will connect, it's gonna connect, it will get there. It's like Martin sometimes it takes for ever but it gets there.

So this fountain is in the UK, and it's called the river. There is a quote from Burnt Norton which is one of the Four quartets. The opening is marked by two Epigraphs from Heraclitus, and what did he believe in? He believed in the unity of opposition. Sun meets moon gets a child, or something depends on the situation. Also just like the head and tail of the Ouroboros. Or as I call it sun and moon. Or Maiden and Lion. Getting interesting yet? This took work to piece together, and it will tie to the empire of the dawn.

Now this fountain the River, it has multiple parts too it. So at the base, flanking the steps are the guardians, and the guardians look almost identical to a pair of Sphinxes. So you go up the steps and you see these two Obelisks that flank the fountain, and these look just like two towers and the towers have lights on the top and between them is the fountain, similar to the twins. Then in the middle you have the beautiful fountain wihch has two children facing each other, the youth a boy and girl. Then the top part of the fountain has a women, laying in it, The River. Now she is called the river because she is based off another fountain in Ireland. Now the Irish being Irish gave this fountain a nickname, the Floozie in the Jacuzzi. It's actually the Anna Livia monument. And this monument is the personification of the River Liffey, or Life.

How does it connect? Do you remember when you all first met Dany? What was she doing? Getting ready to get in her Jacuzzi. In fact if you look closely, Dany takes an ton of baths in the series, she has her own Bathtub when she rides with the Dothraki. In fact Martin even put her in a fountain in Kings, and I believe again later in the series. Or it was similar to a fountain, not a tub but a viewing pool or close to that. Though she does take note of a fountain. And of course the biggest clue is Dorne and her connection to it and the Water gardens built for Daenerys, full of fountains.

The Womb of the world, a classic symbol of life. Water a classic symbol of life, the moon heavily connected to water. This is all her symbolism pre pyre, and of course she spends most of the book pregnant.

So she is often called the Moon of Drogo's life, and she calls him her sun and stars. So we get some maiden and lion here, but the gender is inverted. Of course Drogo is actually tied to a lion, a white lion and he gives the skin to Dany. Lions are very important. So with the Dothraki we get the slavery, and slavery is a continued theme in the series and we see it in the empire of the dawn. Martin has kept this a consistent theme on the shifting sands of time in this series. So the sun and Moon are going to have kid. But not like the God Emperor who road around in a pearl and seems to be connected to water, and he had his son the pearl emperor. And in the series pearls are identified as children or a symbol of life and of course connected to water. No her sun was to be this great warrior conqueror and probably slaver, you know Dothraki.

So as you go along there is a betrayal, Mirri and what else? Blood magic, the Blood betrayal.  Is it the same? No, but similar.

The Bloodstone Emperor. What is a bloodstone? I know you know this. It's a Heliotrope, signified meaning? Sun Turn. We have a sun. So we can suspect that the Empress probably had moon symbolism. He kills her out of greed, and it may have involved blood magic as you point out. And something probably turned in their symbolism.

So essentially we have similar circumstances and the same symbolism. But he takes her life here and I suspect alchemic transformation into the moon. Now he killed her over greed and Dany killed Drogo over her love for him. Two very different motivations here and circumstances. She was not after his life, she did not want him to die.

Now another thing about the Dothraki is that when they die they believe they go to the stars. They become them, and you did touch on this, and they are sort of based off Asians, loosely. We know they came out of that land. And of course the slavery theme, and they have their ties to the others, with the grasses, I know you touched on this as well, the red grass and the ghost grass. But also the Milk men and Ghost Grass and the Others are often described very similarly, and the milk men as we know have water in their veins. I would also mention the tall theme with them, because the Others were described as tall, and the Ghost Grass is described as tall, and you have that people in the Empire the tall men I think you said.

But I think we do see a condensed version of this, with Dany and Drogo. Except it's inverted. Here she does no die, though she does Transform, into the sun and Martin carefully selects a stone for her after this, her fire opal, opals are often connected to moons but not this type, this one is connected to fire. With the transformation Which I feel is more like swallowed or absorbed. Of course Drogo and the Bloodstone Emperor are tied to slavery, while Dany and Moons are all about freeing slaves. The Moon singers of Braavos did what? Led the slaves to freedom.

So we have this Moon that absorbed the sun but at her nature is still a moon. Still the mother, still takes baths, and I know everyone takes a bath, most people, but in the books by comparison she baths a lot, Martin makes a point of her connection to water in many ways. Essentially Martin flipped the script. In my opinion to undo what was done, after all what was Azur missing? The child. That is what the story tells us. Will it go there? I don't know but you get the general idea.

Now here are some supporting ideas to all that.

Take the stories of the Night Fort, you know how you talk about Azur and all his names and maybe they were one person, like Dany and all her titles and names. Now imagine the stories of the night fort mostly relate to one person. Originally I thought this person was a Lannister, but chances are he was a Casterly.

Now the same idea you have been covering and the same idea I just presented you with we get it again. Oh and if you already did this in the video cause I have not finished it yet I am going to feel like and idiot.

So with the Night fort we get a bunch of these little pieces of history. Now I know I have talked about this before but lets say they are the same person. Or most of them are about the same person. So I think it starts with the rat cook and the Andal king, so either Tywell of the Rock or Oswell of the vale. Sun and Moon, Lion or Leo and of course the vale the Moon. What if it is not one or the other but both. What if they are both Casterly's. So Tywell is fed Oswell. I think we get a hint to this in the name Craster, who is tied to the Others. We literally have a sun swallowing a moon. And with Azur we know he is connected to a lion as well. Though he kills the lion.

So maybe he goes off the deep end and you get, Mad Axe, the Axe being a symbol of the Andals. Then you get Danny Flint, his very own Danny. We know the Night's King sacrificed to the Others. So maybe he sacrificed her, and we get this curse of the Andals. And then you get the thing that came in the Night. And you know how the story goes about the Night's King. 

Which leads to another type of Transformation. Corruption, like we see with the Bloodemperor. So when it comes to magic it's not about the magic being good or bad, but the person. And I think that has a lot to do with Assahi and Valyria. Asshai having possibly been the breaking of the world moment and Valyria having the Doom. We see with the Valyrian's they may have started off one way but they ended up much like what we here from the bloodstone Emperor. Same with the Night's King probably, he became corrupted, and someone had to stop them. Like Braavos is hinted at as having something to do with the doom, the freed slaves. But I think you see it with the results of the cities, Asshai and it's poison water, Valyria and the boiling see or whatever they call it now, and think that is really important to note that the corruption of water is really bad. Asshai looks like a fire that has gone out, and Valyria looks like a fire that lost control.

Now I suspect that when Valyria went to war with the Rhoyne and we got Nymeria, there is some sort of parallel to the Night's King history. Here we have not fire vs. Ice but vs. water, which I think probably has a strong connection to Yi Ti. And of course we get this great ocean migration which we also probably get with Dany. Though again the circumstances appear to be inverted. And of course the sun makes it's great appearance in Dorne.

And I think the Dothraki are tied to most of this going back to Yi Ti, they may have been good people, then later slavers, like we see with the Lamb men and Valyria, and maybe back to good. But clearly tied to the sun and some great warrior to make the milk men shake that they followed, they may have followed the original Azur, and got corrupted by slavery later and maybe they get brought back.

I know you have heard a lot of this from me before, and touch on a lot of this but I thought I would give you some of the differences I see with the parallels, the stuff on the river and the statues, water (which has always been part 3 of sun and moon) the Casterly's and transformation, magical, symbolism, and how corruption plays it's hand, and choice.

Could it happen again in the future? Sure I suspect it will, but Martin flips the script a lot and he gives a lot of similarities without making it to much alike. He juxtaposes a lot and uses morality to flip some stuff around the choices they make.  So this is basically where I see the symbolism and the parallels appearing in the past and present and possibly future. We may see something with the two wanna be Valyrians in the books. If you know which two characters I am talking about, when I say Wanna be Valyrians you get the idea, and water and sun will play its hand with symbolism there. 

On a slight side note I suspect we get another one eyed Dragon, and think somewhere in all this it's part of the History. A parallel to the battle over the Gods eye with I think Dany as sort of Daemon who you know had a good brother named Visarys who was king, and 3 marriages, and I suspect a one eyed Dragon like Aemond, maybe not, and that will end up leading to a sort of Ned Stark in the sack of KL moment. Or maybe Tyrion or Jaime riding in there, something like that. We have talked about another Trident battle and horned lords and suns and moons that swallow each other which of course is a Tyrion quote. I think we might even get another jumping dragon moment though that does not feel like Dany's wheel house. Maybe someone like Jon.

But yeah that's about all I got, I don't know if I can add to anything else, but I will finishing watching. I like it so far, but you know me I have this sort of particular way I see the books. It's not to be critical or right or wrong, it's just you know, talking about opinions of the books we all gotta them.

See I think Yi Ti has a strong tie to water, and I think maybe Asshai did or fire there or even ice, but when the two sides met it was similar to the doom. That this is where the world breaking took place. So yeah I think that is about it. I mean like if the Lion of Night, seems like it's wrong the symbolism of the Lion, it should be light, but the the male and female seem inverted here, sort of like Dany became inverted and the night's king may be inverted. A lion of night and a maiden of light. But then you get a guy like Jon the White Wolf, cats and dogs, opposite, but both LC's and one tends to be very good and the other has a really bad history.

Now if you look at the Eliot quote "In my end, is my beginning" something went wrong. It was her end and her begining, unity of opposition sun and moon. But no child. And that is a both a boon and bust, what corrupted this? Blood magic. So you have different people and different motivations but you can see where the problem is going back to the bloodemperor, with the corruption of blood magic. So fire needs to meet ice, and you need a child. Will it happen? Again I don't know, it's been a sort of a perpetual cycle. You see it with the Night's King story and with the Bloodemperor and with the waking of the dragons. But it could set up a fix or a cancellation of something. Two forces may off set but that kind of goes away from the unity of opposition which is why I suspect a child.

Okay so yeah that's it.