Bran's vision of Jon in Bran III, GoT

[Meera of Tarth]

On 20/10/2016 at 4:44 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I hate to interrupt, but I always took it as this as well because Bran looks into the distance and sees something terrifying, then we get the line Winter is coming, and at the very end Bran declares his wolf's name is Summer, as in the opposite of what terrified him. But maybe I am simplifying too much???

Oh, I really like that, hadn't noticed before.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

If Bran's vision is supposed to be real time and not past-present-future then what about the dragons in the Shadow Lands he saw flying in his vision? Could it mean that dragon still existed in the world before Daenerys hatched those three? But GRRM said in his SSM that dragons came back to the world for the first time in 200 years. Unless he meant the known world, not the lands beyond.

The sequence is an outline of the three acts of ASOIAF: 1) The War of the Five Kings; 2) The Second Dance of the Dragons; and 3) The War for the Dawn. 

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He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Bran's vision here traces Daenerys's arc through Game and the birth of her dragons. The eggs came from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai; that the dragons were stirring beneath the sunrise was a hint that they were about to hatch, and that the Targaryens were returning. 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

about "pale and hard". It does have associations with death and even with the Others. However, the men of the Night's Watch are described by Jon as "hard, cold men", and the whole idea of joining the NW can be compared to a symbolic sort of death in many ways, therefore the description can be interpreted as Jon becoming a man of the NW, one of the hard, cold men, who are dead to the world so that other people can live. 

Good observation.  The Night's Watchmen are the scapegoats of the realm.  They keep unpleasant realities like awareness of 'Others' and symbolic in addition to literal 'Winter' at bay, so people in the south can continue living in relative Summery oblivion.  I'm also reminded that Jon was originally scapegoated by Ned, who suppressed his identity in favor of the 'Summer King' Robert Baratheon's interests (the true love of Ned's life).  Jon had to become 'dead to the world' so that others -- i.e. Robert -- could live.  Then at the Trident when Robert is presiding over the children in the dispute concerning the wolves, Ned's choice to prioritize Robert's life over that of Jon is shown to be ironic, considering the person in aid of whom he sacrificed Jon -- in aid of whom he broke the spirit if not the letter of the promise he made Lyanna on her deathbed-- is already dead inside.  

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AGOT-Eddard III

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise . . . " She started to cry.

All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

The king looked at them for a long moment, then turned his eyes on his wife. "Damn you, Cersei," he said with loathing.

Ned stood, gently disengaging himself from Sansa's grasp. All the weariness of the past four days had returned to him. "Do it yourself then, Robert," he said in a voice cold and sharp as steel. "At least have the courage to do it yourself."

Robert looked at Ned with flat, dead eyes and left without a word, his footsteps heavy as lead. Silence filled the hall.

"Where is the direwolf?" Cersei Lannister asked when her husband was gone. Beside her, Prince Joffrey was smiling.

The wolfblooded 'Lady' whom Ned ultimately sacrifices is his sister Lyanna.

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The wolfblooded 'Lady' whom Ned ultimately sacrifices is his sister Lyanna.

That's interesting because I am getting the same impression about Ned.  'Ned loved his sister but Robert loved her better' or Robert and Ned were 'more than brothers'.  So he loved Robert better than Lyanna.  Did he put Robert's interests ahead of Lyanna and was he ultimately responsible for Lyanna's death? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@ravenous reader

My quoting isn't wanting to cooperate real well right now so I'm going to just go with the reply like this. Apologies. 

You're right. The both of us sort of pick and choose when to be literal and when to be figurative with our argument. However, I would say that that pale and hard coukd be taken both literally and figuratively.

Hard (literally): Jon is getting stronger. People often describe strong people as "hard". Your skin tightens, muscles literally become hard. There is also a lot of textual evidence of this as Jon trains in the yard, GRRM even emphasizes how tired Jon is (getting tired means you're working out hard).

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He leaned on his sword, drew a deep breath, and allowed himself a moment to savor the victory. “That is a longsword, not an old man’s cane,” Ser Alliser said sharply. “Are your legs hurting, Lord Snow?” Jon hated that name, a mockery that Ser Alliser had hung on him the first day he came to practice. The boys had picked it up, and now he heard it everywhere. He slid the longsword back into its scabbard. “No,” he replied. Thorne strode toward him, crisp black leathers whispering faintly as he moved. He was a compact man of fifty years, spare and hard, with grey in his black hair and eyes like chips of onyx. “The truth now,” he commanded. “I’m tired,” Jon admitted. His arm burned from the weight of the longsword, and he was starting to feel his bruises now that the fight was done.

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The weariness came on him suddenly, as he donned the roughspun blacks that were their everyday wear. He sat on a bench, his fingers fumbling with the fastenings on his cloak.

Yes, I admit, this could be a little bit of a stretch as there is no direct text in this chapter of Jon's skin being described as "hard".

Pale (literally) is obvious for the reasons I discussed in my earlier post. I can't think of any figurative ways to use "pale".

Is there any text in the stabbing chapter that relates closer than this? I don't think so. Obviously we can say he will be pale and hard but there is no textual description of this in the stabbing chapter.

On to the wall coloring. 

Bran's vision: 

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Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal,

Jon's:

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The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky … but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

The color blue is in both. Crystal is also used in both. Shining (shone) is also used in both. To me, GRRM wants us to see this literally. This is how we know when Bran is seeing Jon. Why would GRRM make the description so close if not?

There is only one description of the wall in the stabbing chapter. It is described as "dull white".

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The Wall was a dull white, the sky above it whiter. A snow sky. “Just pray we do not get another storm.”

Yes, you can say that was 3 to 4 hours before the stabbing so it could have changed. But that seems unlikely for two reasons. First, it's been snowing a lot. Jon tells men to clear snow away. Also, Jon says, "just pray we do not get another storm" because the sky is also white. Seems very unlikely the sun came out in the next 3 to 4 hours. Second, why would GRRM describe the wall as white if he wanted us to think Bran's vision of Jon was prophetic?  Also, there is no reason to think it is dark out. The snow from the blood of Ser Partrek (killed right before the stabbing by Wun Wun) is described as red. I don't think it would be described as red if it were dark out.

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The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin’s Tower, but Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was still roaring. The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though. The dead man’s sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red.

Even if it was dark out (which we have no reason to believe it is) the wall would not be blue like described in Bran's vision. 

You're point that shining blue crystal is a marker for magic, death, and supernatural is a valid one. You're examples obviously show that. But for me, the closeness of the wall description is too much to chalk up to a broad generalization of what "shining blue crystal" may (or may not) signify.

Also, the description of the warmth leaving the body is extremely close as well in Jon's chapter. Too much for me to ignore. I'll post again. 

From Bran:

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his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

From Jon:

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Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.

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So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man’s body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder.

Again, very similar. 

Bottom line, these things can be interpreted in different ways. And that is great. But for this one, I feel like Bran is not prophetically seeing the stabbing. He is simply seeing how Jon is doing during his early time at the wall.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Oh, I really like that, hadn't noticed before.

Hey Meera

That was just my interpretation, and I did sorta come to this conclusion based on thinking that this was a past-present-future type vision, as LM pointed out. This would have been a spark to light Bran into action.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

7 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

If Bran's vision is supposed to be real time and not past-present-future then what about the dragons in the Shadow Lands he saw flying in his vision? Could it mean that dragon still existed in the world before Daenerys hatched those three? But GRRM said in his SSM that dragons came back to the world for the first time in 200 years. Unless he meant the known world, not the lands beyond.

I explained this in a later post but I will again. I should not have used the term "real time". I only wanted to discriminate between Bran's Jon vision being his early time at the wall vs. a prophetic vision of the stabbing. My argument is that Bran's vision of Jon was not prophetic of the stabbing but closer to current time. I hope that makes sense. At the time I thought using "real time" would be easier to understand what I meant. That was a mistake by me. 

But, Dany's eggs did come from Asshai so you could argue that dragons did "stir". Also, I think there are some random references to "sailor talk" of dragons in Asshai. The Pate chapter maybe? I'm gonna go grab my tinfoil hat and research that a bit. 

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

"He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

Bran's vision here traces Daenerys's arc through Game and the birth of her dragons. The eggs came from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai; that the dragons were stirring beneath the sunrise was a hint that they were about to hatch, and that the Targaryens were returning. 

I totally agree with this. I really think Bran is one the three heroes to the story, not just Jon and Dany.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

17 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hey Meera

That was just my interpretation, and I did sorta come to this conclusion based on thinking that this was a past-present-future type vision, as LM pointed out. This would have been a spark to light Bran into action.

Could there be some wierd connection with the HEART tree in WINTERfell?

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He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

pale and hard could be taken both literally and figuratively.

Hard (literally): Jon is getting stronger. People often describe strong people as "hard". Your skin tightens, muscles literally become hard. There is also a lot of textual evidence of this as Jon trains in the yard, GRRM even emphasizes how tired Jon is (getting tired means you're working out hard).

Quote

He leaned on his sword, drew a deep breath, and allowed himself a moment to savor the victory. “That is a longsword, not an old man’s cane,” Ser Alliser said sharply. “Are your legs hurting, Lord Snow?” Jon hated that name, a mockery that Ser Alliser had hung on him the first day he came to practice. The boys had picked it up, and now he heard it everywhere. He slid the longsword back into its scabbard. “No,” he replied. Thorne strode toward him, crisp black leathers whispering faintly as he moved. He was a compact man of fifty years, spare and hard, with grey in his black hair and eyes like chips of onyx. “The truth now,” he commanded. “I’m tired,” Jon admitted. His arm burned from the weight of the longsword, and he was starting to feel his bruises now that the fight was done.

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The weariness came on him suddenly, as he donned the roughspun blacks that were their everyday wear. He sat on a bench, his fingers fumbling with the fastenings on his cloak.

Yes, I admit, this could be a little bit of a stretch as there is no direct text in this chapter of Jon's skin being described as "hard".

Pale (literally) is obvious for the reasons I discussed in my earlier post. I can't think of any figurative ways to use "pale".

Another way of reading this is that Jon himself is being symbolically 'forged' into a sword at the Wall, manifesting the Night's Watchman's words, 'I am the sword in the darkness.'  If you look at the description of Ser Alliser Thorne -- 'hard...compact...grey...black...chips of onyx' with his 'sharp' cutting remarks-- he could almost be a sword himself, in addition to performing the symbolic role of 'smith' in relation to his charges!  Even the word 'onyx' is etymologically related to something sharp: 'Onyx comes through Latin (of the same spelling), from the Greek ὄνυξ, meaning "claw" or "fingernail"'  As we know, 'claws' may be swords, e.g. 'Longclaw.'  Scrutinizing his name, 'Alliser' is probably a variant of 'Alistair' from 'Alexander,' meaning 'I defend' , again reflecting the Night's Watch vow: 

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A male given name, a variant of Alasdair, Scottish form of Alexander.

From Old Irish Alaxander, from Latin Alexander, from Ancient Greek Ἀλέξανδρος ‎(Aléxandros), from ἀλέξω ‎(aléxō, “I defend”) + ἀνδρ- ‎(andr-, “man”).

Then his surname, a pun on 'thorn,' evokes something sharp and hard like a sword, as well as being an allusion to the barbs of the Iron Throne which are known to prick the undeserving and/or the unwary, leading  @Seams and others to identify 'throne' as a pun on 'thorn'.  According to legend, the Iron Throne was created by smelting down thousands of swords of the vanquished, so that's an additional connection to Thorne who is similarly engaged in 'reforging' the raw material of the recruits or rejects he has been given to reform from all over the kingdoms.  

Swords are put through a sequence of stressful treatments, including being subjected to repeated beatings like the recruits at the Wall -- in addition to quenching, tempering, annealing, etc. -- in order to harden them with the aim of increasing resilience and countering brittleness.  Fittingly, for example, Jon burns his sword arm (treatment by fire) followed by plunging it into an ice bath (treatment by water/ice), whereafter he wears a black glove signifying his interim transformation.   In the passage quoted by you above, GRRM sneakily describes Jon's arm as 'burning' as a foreshadowing of the actual trial by fire after which he is presented with Longclaw as a reward. Swords undergoing re-forging thus undergo color changes as reflected in the recruits' bruises (which go through a progression of colors before resolving) as well as Jon's black glove, or indeed the euphemism 'taking the black'.  Interpreted in this light, Jon becoming a  'pale' sword therefore might refer to the 'white hot' color due to some form of fire treatment, or perhaps it's the finished product after an arduous process of successive exercises.  Significantly, Dawn and the swords of the Others are described as 'pale swords'!

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Could there be some wierd connection with the HEART tree in WINTERfell?

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He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Yes, the heart tree is the magical hinge around which time turns whereby Bran as a greenseer may access the future.  I think Bran saw a vision of the future specifically a human sacrifice either of his loved ones and/or himself, since a 'white hart' (like the white heart tree) is a rare and magical figure sought after elsewhere as the object of the hunt.  

Spoiler

I wonder if this ties in with what we were shown in 'the mummer's version' as the origin of the White Walkers, involving the heart sacrifice of someone, presumably a Stark, in front of/to a tree

Remember, Bran is the 'fallen Star-k.'  Perhaps something will be forged symbolically from his own heart -- analogous to how 'Dawn' was forged from the heart of a fallen star.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's interesting because I am getting the same impression about Ned.  'Ned loved his sister but Robert loved her better' or Robert and Ned were 'more than brothers'.  So he loved Robert better than Lyanna.  Did he put Robert's interests ahead of Lyanna and was he ultimately responsible for Lyanna's death? 

Ned definitely loved Robert more than anyone else in the world.  What's more, Lyanna being an intuitive realist about human nature, probably like her niece Arya with whom she is frequently compared in appearance, character and aptitude, understood this about her more romantically-inclined, naive brother.  Therefore, I believe her famous statement to him 'love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man' can be interpreted with a different emphasis, as follows:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

...he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

Superficially, the 'love' that is not enough is usually taken to refer to Robert for whom love was not enough to change his philandering ways.  However, at a deeper, more interesting level, she was referring to her brother Ned, whom she addresses here, whose love for Robert, though all-encompassing and unflagging, was also blind, leading him to overlook Robert's fatal flaws of character -- the most fatal of which I've indicated repeatedly do not involve sexuality, although that's usually the one that's flogged to death on various threads.  She may have also appreciated that one such as Robert would never reciprocate in kind, regardless of how much or how faithfully Ned loved and served him.  In retrospect, this is of course how it played out in the dance between the 'beta-male' (who was indeed the 'better' male of the two!) and 'alpha', with Ned giving his all and Robert unfailingly turning his back on Ned -- a treacherous king, soldier, and friend.  

With this insight, we may begin to comprehend why Lyanna's tone is faintly condescending, wistful, sad and resigned all at once here, because Ned is focusing on sexual fidelity and that's not the point.  Robert was not a 'good' man nor 'true' in so many other more vital ways than keeping to one bed.  And loving her brother, together with having empathy for both the allure and limitations of love, she also understands and forgives him for his weakness.  This may also explain why on her deathbed she had to make him promise to her so fervently, because she realised that whatever it was she was asking of him would be difficult for him to carry out, requiring him to betray Robert at some essential heartfelt level, turn against his greatest love and break his own heart.  As a tragic hero, the core of Ned's psychological struggle seems to have been characterised by the dilemma of being repeatedly caught between breaking his word vs. breaking his heart.  I'm not sure, however, how it played out in relation to Lyanna's death nor what was 'promised.'

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Could there be some wierd connection with the HEART tree in WINTERfell?

 

I think so (but then again, I love to put mustard on my bagels with cream cheese). Starks, ice, winter, Winter, heart trees, the bones remember, blood feeds the trees, Bran might be a tree, etc...

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

Meera looked to her brother for the answer. "Our road is north," Jojen announced.

At the edge of the wolfswood, Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell's chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

6 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Even if it was dark out (which we have no reason to believe it is)

Sorry to intrude, but it is indeed night at the moment of the Ides of Marsh.

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Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

Earlier in the chapter, GRRM had already warned us to set our minds to picture the stabbing at night. After delivering the "Bastard" letter, Clydas is dismissed by Jon:

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Jon Snow did not answer at once. “Mully, help Clydas back to his chambers. The night is dark, and the paths will be slippery with snow. Satin, go with them.”

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Sorry to intrude, but it is indeed night at the moment of the Ides of Marsh.

Earlier in the chapter, GRRM had already warned us to set our minds to picture the stabbing at night. After delivering the "Bastard" letter, Clydas is dismissed by Jon:

 

Good find. My mistake.

But stil, it doesn't change the wall coloring to blue crystal because it's night.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Good find. My mistake.

Yeah, mine too. For years I pictured it at daytime, because the description of the colors of blood and ser Patrek's cloak are very vivid.

I only got this detail until a very recent re-read.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

12 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Yeah, mine too. For years I pictured it at daytime, because the description of the colors of blood and ser Patrek's cloak are very vivid.

I only got this detail until a very recent re-read.

I don't want to tangent too much but can someone explain that to me? If it's night why the description of Ser Patrek's red blood? It is very descriptive and red is used several times. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't want to tangent too much but can someone explain that to me? If it's night why the description of Ser Patrek's red blood? It is very descriptive and red is used several times. 

Yeah, the mutiny happens at night because Jon had been working out his options and details all day. Not only that, but I think it was either still a full moon (Val returned at the full moon as promised), or it might have been a waning moon, but I need to hunt that down to be sure. Anyway, I think the red blood is so red because it is a hot and quick set up to what is about to happen. I am sure the yard is not technically dark-dark, they do have lanterns as Jon's hand can attest to , but I think it may have only been one description of red blood for Patrek. But then we have Jon looking at the red blood on his hand from the slash at his neck. And yes... maybe some small symbolism for the red in Jon's blood he is about to find out he has (starts with D and rhymes with Bagons). I think it is George putting this blood so close together because we are meant to think about it alot in these moments, and then what Jon, maybe with Bran's help, will soon be experiencing. (Damned nerdy internet ruiners figuring stuff out ages ago )

 

Sidenote: Ser Patrek of Kings Mountain is named after a friend of George, where George lost a bet (or something) and had to create a character based on his friend.

Here is a short answer from the wiki, but I am sure you can find a more detailed story online http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Patrek_of_King's_Mountain

Patrek of King's Mountain is named after a friend of George R. R. Martin, Patrick St. Denis of Montreal. Patrick is a fan of the Dallas Cowboys football team (whose logo is a blue star), while George supports the New York Giants.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Yeah, mine too. For years I pictured it at daytime, because the description of the colors of blood and ser Patrek's cloak are very vivid.

I only got this detail until a very recent re-read.

The red blood, Ser Patrek's, turns Ser Patrek's sigil red, and the red star bleeds. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The red blood, Ser Patrek's, turns Ser Patrek's sigil red, and the red star bleeds. 

I always thought people were joking when they said that because Patreks star is blue on silver. I am not trying to offend anyone, just being honest. Kinda like when people say "hold the door." So, is it true with Patrek, or part of George's humor?

Wouldnt Mel be more like the red star bleeding? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I always thought people were joking when they said that because Patreks star is blue on silver. I am not trying to offend anyone, just being honest. Kinda like when people say "hold the door." So, is it true with Patrek, or part of George's humor?

Wouldnt Mel be more like the red star bleeding? 

There is no doubt that Ser Patrek's sigil is an allusion to the Dallas Cowboys, and note that Patrek is being manhandled by a giant called "Wun Wun," and that The George's favorite NFL team is a giant, which was famously quarterbacked by Phil Simms, whose jersey number was 11. 

[The Fattest Leech]

33 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

There is no doubt that Ser Patrek's sigil is an allusion to the Dallas Cowboys, and note that Patrek is being manhandled by a giant called "Wun Wun," and that The George's favorite NFL team is a giant, which was famously quarterbacked by Phil Simms, whose jersey number was 11. 

Eh. Prophecy, penis. What's done is done.