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OtherFromAnotherMother

Bran's vision of Jon in Bran III, GoT

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20 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Superficially, the 'love' that is not enough is usually taken to refer to Robert for whom love was not enough to change his philandering ways.  However, at a deeper, more interesting level, she was referring to her brother Ned, whom she addresses here, whose love for Robert, though all-encompassing and unflagging, was also blind, leading him to overlook Robert's fatal flaws of character -- the most fatal of which I've indicated repeatedly do not involve sexuality, although that's usually the one that's flogged to death on various threads.  She may have also appreciated that one such as Robert would never reciprocate in kind, regardless of how much or how faithfully Ned loved and served him.  In retrospect, this is of course how it played out in the dance between the 'beta-male' (who was indeed the 'better' male of the two!) and 'alpha', with Ned giving his all and Robert unfailingly turning his back on Ned -- a treacherous king, soldier, and friend.  

With this insight, we may begin to comprehend why Lyanna's tone is faintly condescending, wistful, sad and resigned all at once here, because Ned is focusing on sexual fidelity and that's not the point.  Robert was not a 'good' man nor 'true' in so many other more vital ways than keeping to one bed.  And loving her brother, together with having empathy for both the allure and limitations of love, she also understands and forgives him for his weakness.  This may also explain why on her deathbed she had to make him promise to her so fervently, because she realised that whatever it was she was asking of him would be difficult for him to carry out, requiring him to betray Robert at some essential heartfelt level, turn against his greatest love and break his own heart.  As a tragic hero, the core of Ned's psychological struggle seems to have been characterised by the dilemma of being repeatedly caught between breaking his word vs. breaking his heart.  I'm not sure, however, how it played out in relation to Lyanna's death nor what was 'promised.'

This appeals to me.  Lyanna sees Robert's nature as an unreliable friend while Ned is unable to see Robert in anything other than an idealized light; something that is passed onto Jon in the stories he tells him.  Jon sees Robert in an entirely different light.  Ned too eventually has his boyhood fantasy of Robert shattered.

Robert's deathbed scene is interesting to me because I think there is a superficial level to that conversation as well.  Ned has strong emotional anchors woven between Lyanna and Robert.

The royal apartments were in Maegor's Holdfast, a massive square fortress that nestled in the heart of the Red Keep behind walls twelve feet thick and a dry moat line with iron spikes, a castle-within-a-castle.  Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight.  Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard, Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king's bedchamber.   Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him. 

Evoking the memory of the battle at the ToJ and Lyanna's death at this point; tells me to look at little closer at that conversation.  Ned's 'truth' is close the surface as it was in the crypts at Winterfell when he almost slips up and tells Robert something meant to be secret.

"Lyanna was .... fond of flowers."

"Serve the boar at my funeral feast," Robert rasped.  "Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp.  Eat the bastard.  Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

The bastard is Jon, at least in Ned's mind. That Robert wouldn't care if Ned choked on him might say something about the promise he made to Lyanna and Lyanna's assessment of Robert.  Robert refers to the boar as a 'bastard' several times. The boar/bastard sent to kill him as a punishment from the gods.

"The girl Daenerys.  Only a child, you were right ... That's why, the girl ... the gods sent the boar ... sent to punish me ..."  The king coughed, bringing up blood.  "Wrong, it was wrong, I ... only a girl...."

I wonder in this state of mind if Robert is talking about Dany or remembering Lyanna,

"Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride."

"I will give Lyanna your love, Ned.  Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife.  For a moment he was at a loss.  He could not bring himself to lie.  Then he remembered the bastards:  little Barra at her mothers breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at is forge, and all the others.  "I shall ... guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.

The words would twist in Ned's stomach like a knife if Jon is Robert's son; someone he guards as his own son; someone he makes into a better man than his father.  Ned is very careful in his promise, having already made that promise to Lyanna.  He doesn't intend to uphold Joffrey's claim, but send him away instead.

One of the lies that Ned tells for love.  I think it's possible that Robert took Lyanna against her will in some fashion; something that becomes a source of Ned's shame; something that Robert projects onto Rheager in his assertion that he raped Lyanna thousands of times.  Something that Ned rationalizes about Robert's 'love' for Lyanna. In Robert's mind, Lyanna already belonged to him.  Her disappearance and rumours of Rhaegar's involvement enough to enrage Robert, even against Lyanna.  That would be a good reason to disappear.  Would Robert accept Lyanna's word about Jon's paternity or would he kill him?

 

Edited by LynnS

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3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Eh. Prophecy, penis. What's done is done. 

?

I think I am going off topic here, but I think the reason for Ser Patrek's sigil is to help fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy. The Dallas Cowboys allusion was a secondary thing. 

Maester Aemon links the prince that was promised prophecy to the Azor Ahai reborn prophecy. As related to the reader in a couple of different spots the Azor Ahai prophecy provides seven elements, and one threshold. The hero will be 1) reborn under a 2) red bleeding star with 3) cold winds blowing, amidst 4) smoke and 5) salt to 6) wake a dragon and to draw a 7) burning sword from the fire that would be called Lightbringer. From Barristan we learn that Jaehaerys II had heard the Ghost of High Heart prophesize that the prince that was promised would be born from the line of his son and daughter, Aerys II and Rhaella. Since two of the elements are smoke and salt we should watch for red herrings (unless you prefer to eat your herring raw).

The only unquestioned descendant of Aerys II and Rhaella is Daenerys. If Aegon truly were the son of Rhaegar he would be a candidate, but there are more than a few hints that he is actually the son of Illyrio and a none of Aegon's experiences have satisfied any of the elements anyway. 

But Daenerys is the red herring. We can make a nearly convincing argument in her favor, though. She was “reborn” as the Red Comet was first observed. There were no cold winds blowing, but that element was probably satisfied as to all characters by the approaching threat of the Others. She burned Drogo on the edge of the Dothraki Sea, thus providing the smoke and the salt. And the fire caused her three dragonlets to hatch from eggs that had been turned to stone. And those dragons have been described as flaming swords over the world. 

Assuming he is “reborn” in Winds, though, all of the other elements will be satisfied as to Jon by the end of Dance too. He was stabbed while a knight, whose sigil included a spatter of five-pointed stars, was bloodied and killed by a giant. Jon’s blood appeared to smoke as it fell on the snow and Bowen Marsh’s tears were clearly intended to supply the salt. When he wakes, it will be as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna—the Ice Dragon, no? So, he will wake a dragon. Jeor Mormont awarded Jon a sword of Valyrian steel after Jon destroyed a wight with fire, burning his sword hand in the process, and shortly before his stabbing, Jon had a vision of fighting the Others with his sword burning in his hand.

The tale of how the original Azor Ahai forged the original Lightbringer suggested that the reborn Azor Ahai would have to make some great sacrifice to forge the new Lightbringer. Jon has already sacrificed Ygritte. 

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36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

?

I think I am going off topic here, but I think the reason for Ser Patrek's sigil is to help fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy. The Dallas Cowboys allusion was a secondary thing. 

~~~

Despite how it may have seemed in my haste to answer an question and then respond without guiltily derailing the main topic, I came across as vague. Sorry. I do agree with what you wrote... even Aegon.

Patrek was created and named after a friend of George that won one of of three bets. I just re-read the article and Patrek, in Montreal became Patrek of Kings Mountain and real life Patrek was surprised George made him as big a character as he did. Gardner writing and all, I guess? But yes, in short, I can see how Patrek of KM is a set of bleeding stars. It just seemed weird to me that George would set a prophecy into motion based on a bet about footba.... Oh wait, nevermind-_-

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him. 

Evoking the memory of the battle at the ToJ and Lyanna's death at this point; tells me to look at little closer at that conversation.  Ned's 'truth' is close the surface as it was in the crypts at Winterfell when he almost slips up and tells Robert something meant to be secret.

"Lyanna was .... fond of flowers."

Indeed, that's a mysterious moment to which I have no answer.  I don't think it proves, however, that Robert is Jon's father.

Quote

"Serve the boar at my funeral feast," Robert rasped.  "Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp.  Eat the bastard.  Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

The bastard is Jon, at least in Ned's mind. That Robert wouldn't care if Ned choked on him might say something about the promise he made to Lyanna and Lyanna's assessment of Robert.  Robert refers to the boar as a 'bastard' several times. The boar/bastard sent to kill him as a punishment from the gods.

Several bastards could be in play here.  First, Jon who was from a certain perspective sacrificed by Ned in aid of Robert's claim to the throne (I'm assuming Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna; Robert as Jon's father just doesn't make sense to me on a symbolic level).  The bastard's mouth is stuffed with an apple, because Ned through his choices essentially forbade Jon from proclaiming his true identity to the world, and crushed his spirit to a certain extent by foisting the ignominious status of bastardy upon him, although on the other hand unfailingly seeing to his material needs like food, shelter, education.  Apples also signify that someone has succumbed to temptation, here presumably Ned who was tempted to suppress Jon's true identity and claim in favor of the false premise of Robert's Rebellion.  

The reason the tableau of the deathbed presided over by the elite of the Kingsguard fills Ned with guilt is that Ned recognises that he is once again reluctantly present at the transfer of power from one king to another and asked to make a major call on the legality of that succession.  The only reason for the Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy is to be guarding the future king -- they say as much in their thinly-veiled, barely-cryptic poetic justifications for why they were variously not at the Trident, not at Dragonstone, not in King's Landing, etc.  

Because of Robert, Ned was also not able to confide in anyone regarding Jon's paternity, including his wife.  Hence, he choked on his promise, both in the sense of having failed to act upon the promise he made Lyanna, or falling short of her wishes in some way, as well as having been effectively silenced in order to keep the peace and protect Jon, feeble as that 'shelter' may have been.  

Other candidates for bastards would include the Baratheon children, who Ned plans on disenfranchising politically following Robert's death in a move that will 'choke' him because he knows he's thereby dishonoring Robert's memory.

Finally, the 'bastard sent to kill him' may be Cersei herself (I'm partial to the idea of Cersei and Jaime as Aerys's bastard children, the way you're partial to Robert as Jon's father!)  By cuckolding Robert in her 'horniness' for her brother, Cersei 'gave Robert horns' according to the idiom, so it's fitting symbolically that a bore gores him while he's drugged at Cersei's instigation!  I'm not bothered by the male pronoun of the boar.  After a lifetime of identifying with Tywin and the quest for power, Cersei's sense of masculinity is more developed than any feminine traits (and you know 'dragons' don't respect traditional gender boundaries, anyway :)).  She's the one emasculating both Jaime and Robert, a symbolic castration for them and a phallic annexation of the 'horns' by her.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark.

 

Quote

"The girl Daenerys.  Only a child, you were right ... That's why, the girl ... the gods sent the boar ... sent to punish me ..."  The king coughed, bringing up blood.  "Wrong, it was wrong, I ... only a girl...."

I wonder in this state of mind if Robert is talking about Dany or remembering Lyanna,

That would fit your theory of Robert having raped Lyanna, yes.

Quote

"Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride."

"I will give Lyanna your love, Ned.  Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife.  For a moment he was at a loss.  He could not bring himself to lie.  Then he remembered the bastards:  little Barra at her mothers breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at is forge, and all the others.  "I shall ... guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.

The words would twist in Ned's stomach like a knife if Jon is Robert's son; someone he guards as his own son; someone he makes into a better man than his father.

You're right, that would certainly be ironic if Jon is Robert's son.  Why doesn't he just tell Robert the truth and get it over with then?  He could easily have revealed Jon is Robert and Lyanna's son to Robert on his deathbed -- the news would probably have pleased Robert and offered him a measure of belated comfort  -- without revealing that the Baratheons are not his.  The reason 'the words twist in his belly like a knife' is because he can't bring himself to reveal the latter, particularly how he plans on taking matters into his own hands and delegitimizing them which he knows is a breach of trust as far as the friendship or 'alpha-beta bromance' is concerned!

Quote

  Ned is very careful in his promise, having already made that promise to Lyanna.  He doesn't intend to uphold Joffrey's claim, but send him away instead.

One of the lies that Ned tells for love.  I think it's possible that Robert took Lyanna against her will in some fashion; something that becomes a source of Ned's shame; something that Robert projects onto Rheager in his assertion that he raped Lyanna thousands of times.  Something that Ned rationalizes about Robert's 'love' for Lyanna. In Robert's mind, Lyanna already belonged to him.  Her disappearance and rumours of Rhaegar's involvement enough to enrage Robert, even against Lyanna.  That would be a good reason to disappear.  Would Robert accept Lyanna's word about Jon's paternity or would he kill him?

I still can't believe Ned would've hidden Jon's paternity from Catelyn, ruining his marriage in the process, had Jon been Robert's instead of Rhaegar's son.  What made the truth dangerous was the Targaryen factor as a challenge to Robert's throne, not the shame of rape necessarily.  

Regarding your final question, I think Robert would've accepted Lyanna's word and not killed Jon.  My impression of Robert is of a rather vain man who would have been flattered by the news, specially considering that Jon looks more like him than Rhaegar  and like him grows to be a talented warrior.  Had he had silver hair and purple eyes and a raging musical talent, that might have been a problem.  

Edited by ravenous reader

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26 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I still can't believe Ned would've hidden Jon's paternity from Catelyn, ruining his marriage in the process, had Jon been Robert's instead of Rhaegar's son.  What made the truth dangerous was the Targaryen factor as a challenge to Robert's throne, not the shame of rape necessarily.  

I can only speculate.  LOL!  In that same chapter, Robert says the boar 'found him' and I wonder if this is reference to the Crakehall's, bannermen of the Lannisters.  If Robert was found in a compromising position; this would be information worth having.  It might be information that Tywin Lannister would use to pit Rhaegar against Robert to serve his own ends.  The kidnapping of Lyanna is still a slander in my mind.  Rhaegar may very well have gone looking for her if only to clear his own name if he also received information that she had gone missing.  The whole story would put Jon's paternity into question in Robert's mind.

I'm not sure why Ned wouldn't tell Catelyn anything about Jon.  It's one of the lies he tells for love.    Ned doesn't find Lyanna until the end of the war and she dies.  What is the point of telling Robert about Jon then.  Robert's fortunes are tied to the Lannister's and Jon would be a threat to the Lannisters.  

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49 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Rhaegar may very well have gone looking for her if only to clear his own name if he also received information that she had gone missing

He went looking for her because his father ordered him to apprehend the 'knight of the laughing tree,' whom in his paranoia he had interepreted as Jaime Lannister and therefore Tywin Lannister laughing at him.

One other thing:  Do you think Gendry would've succeeded in raping Arya had that been his intention?  I don't think Gendry would've gotten away with attempting such a grievous assault before being driven off by a devastating blow to the groin, or a debilitating jab to the eye that would have left him reeling.  He was stronger, but she was quicker.  Analogously, I don't think Robert would've been successful in raping Lyanna.   By the time he had stopped seeing stars, Lyanna would've absconded on his horse (I believe the description of Brandon and she as 'centaurs' is also meant to indicate an ability to warg horses, so a horse might have appeared on the spot as if summoned preternaturally, the way the direwolves or dragons know when their 'familiars' are in trouble).  Are you insinuating he may have held a weapon like his hammer against her?  I think Robert is a lusty, blustery creature, even callous, but not a vicious predator.

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34 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

He went looking for her because his father ordered him to apprehend the 'knight of the laughing tree,' whom in his paranoia he had interepreted as Jaime Lannister and therefore Tywin Lannister laughing at him.

One other thing:  Do you think Gendry would've succeeded in raping Arya had that been his intention?  I don't think Gendry would've gotten away with attempting such a grievous assault before being driven off by a devastating blow to the groin, or a debilitating jab to the eye that would have left him reeling.  He was stronger, but she was quicker.  Analogously, I don't think Robert would've been successful in raping Lyanna.   By the time he had stopped seeing stars, Lyanna would've absconded on his horse (I believe the description of Brandon and she as 'centaurs' is also meant to indicate an ability to warg horses, so a horse might have appeared on the spot as if summoned preternaturally, the way the direwolves or dragons know when their 'familiars' are in trouble).  Are you insinuating he may have held a weapon like his hammer against her?  I think Robert is a lusty, blustery creature, even callous, but not a vicious predator.

I'm not sure that Gendry would make such a move but I can see Robert going too far with Lyanna in a drunken state and not even feeling a kick in the groin (or remembering it afterwards) if she could overcome all 6 foot 6 of him. I don't think Robert's a callous predator; but a drunken slob fits the bill.  This is the first I've heard of Lyanna warging horses though.

I just can't get on board with the Rhaegar kidnapping or elopement scenario.  I'm not sure that I buy Ned or Arthur Dayne either at this point.  I think it will be something that nobody expects.

Edited by LynnS

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After some more reading/thinking, I now think George is using this portion of the dream as both a current perspective of Jon while simultaneously foreshadowing what will happen with Jon following the stabbing. 

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21 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

After some more reading/thinking, I now think George is using this portion of the dream as both a current perspective of Jon while simultaneously foreshadowing what will happen with Jon following the stabbing. 

I doubt it. Jon will probably stay dead for less than a day.

We have evidence enough to believe that he will go into gohst and that he will then return to his body. Given what happened to LSH after being dead for 3 days (she is too damaged), that jon will have to remember to get out of gohst and into his own body and that nobody keeps a dead body for no reason jon's "ressurection" will happen pretty fast.

At most I think that the vision of the dream describes the act of dieing because jon felt very cold as he loses his conscience.

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

I doubt it.

What, specifically, do you doubt? I think it may be possible I didn't explain myself very well and you misunderstood what I was saying. I think his body will be placed in an ice cell. I have no idea for how long, but this does not exclude the possibility of him also going into ghost.

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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Just now, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What, specifically, do you doubt? I think it may be possible I didn't explain myself very well and you understood what I was saying. I think his body will be placed in an ice cell. I have no idea for how long, but this does not exclude the possibility of him also going into ghost.

I doubt that he will be kept for an indifinite amount of time in an ice cell.

At most they will keep him there 1 night so that they can properly "bury" him the next day. I was trying to say that I doubt that jon's body will be slowly freezing somewhere for a lot of time.

I know people like the whole "ice preserves" thingy but the longer a person stays dead the more damaged they return, people just don t keep dead bodies around for no reason when they can be turned into wights and if jon spends a lot of time in gohst he simply won t be able to return. 

 

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On 10/19/2016 at 4:01 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

It's a foreshadowing of Jon dying and then turning into a wight.  Taking a nap in a cold room is not going to turn your skin hard.  And as far as humans go, skin doesn't go pale because of a chill.  At least not while the person is alive. 

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52 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

It's a foreshadowing of Jon dying and then turning into a wight.  Taking a nap in a cold room is not going to turn your skin hard.  And as far as humans go, skin doesn't go pale because of a chill.  At least not while the person is alive. 

It could be. :thumbsup:

 

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3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

It could be. :thumbsup:

 

It could also be skin freezing or rigor mortis

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26 minutes ago, divica said:

It could also be skin freezing or rigor mortis

It could be.

It could also be a metaphor for how Jon is feeling at The Wall during the time if Bran's coma dream. The OP shows how the wall coloring is the same in the coma dream of Jon as it is in the Jon chapter where he describes how cold and alone he is following Bran's coma dream chapter. The wall is a different color for the stabbing scene. This is a tough fact to ignore.

It could be all these things. George is being purposefully ambiguous, as usual. This is why I'm thinking it is both real time and foreshadowing.

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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@divica

Jon X, DwD

Quote
Carved from the base of the Wall and closed with heavy wooden doors, the ice cells ranged from small to smaller. Some were big enough to allow a man to pace, others so small that prisoners were forced to sit; the smallest were too cramped to allow even that.
 
Jon had given his chief captive the largest cell, a pail to shit in, enough furs to keep him from freezing, and a skin of wine. It took the guards some time to open his cell, as ice had formed inside the lock. Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through. A faint fecal odor greeted him, though less overpowering than he'd expected. Even shit froze solid in such bitter cold. Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls.

It might even be the exact same cell he puts Karstark in. 

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6 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@divica

Jon X, DwD

It might even be the exact same cell he puts Karstark in. 

I could see them putting him AND ghost in an ice cell during a night (because he could be wightified) in order to "bury" him the next day. Then during the night bran/BR can teach jon how to get back to his body (because as he is in the Wall they can reach him) and when they open the door he is back...

The idea that the NW and wildlings would keep his body in an ice cell for days or weeks because "ice preserves" is the thing I can t agree. And acording to grrm style if he spent so much time dead we would be too damaged when he returned.

And all this is assuming people won t use ice to burn his wounds and use cpr to re start his heart or something like that.

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