Some thoughts and a question on Wylla, and a specific choice of wording by Edric.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

You say things with such conviction i swear you must assume all your own theories must be true because you think them. Is that the way of it?

How could you possibly know for a fact that Ashara had no reason to want to tell Ned anything? She may have thought the man had suffered enough loss and wanted to help him. Thats just an example and is it that much of a stretch? Maybe it is if it doesnt align with a theory of your own?.

No it really is not. 

 

I'm more interested in if there is evidence. There is no evidence she would want to tell Ned anything, there is no evidence she had any knowledge of it herself.  

I don't even have a theory as to who told Ned. I just know that the assumption Ashara did is flawed.  

My only theories on the ToJ involve Darkstar being there as a squire. Ashara and Wylla are pretty unimportant to that, them knowing or being anywhere in particular makes no odds. 

[Macgregor of the North]

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

At this point he has his third head

Nope, still unborn and therefore unsafe while the baby is still inside Lyanna(a Stark's belly). The more people who know her location, the worse it is for his third heads safety. And Lyannas, lets not forget, he cares for the girl.

 

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

He has reason to keep it quiet

Were getting there.

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ned went to lift the siege at Storms end, and then he went to Dorne and arrived at the ToJ, somewhere he got information pertaining to her whereabouts. Now where is more likely? the Red Keep in Kings Landing where we know Rhaegar has been and discussed his love with at least two people. Or Storms End the stronghold of the Baratheon's being held siege by the Tyrells?  This is an assumption on my part yes. But logically the former is far more likely. 

Yup he sure did. But Because Rhaegar has discussed his love at KL that in no way whatsoever confirms he was telling her location to people. Lyanna is guarded by his three best men he believes, he can focus on training the crownlands levies and winning the war now, he would not be disclosing Lyannas location to anymore people i dont think, he doesnt have to. And Ned didnt have to find out the exact location at Storms End, he could have been heading south and been picking up bits of information here and there and even could have been seeked out by someone himnself. But since you are so dead set against Ashara wanting to tell Ned anything you dont wanna hear that do ya?. If you open your mind up to it, the possibilities of Ned finding out after he leaves KL are there. You just dont wanna entertain them it seems. I have analysed the possibility of him finding out at KL for ages and ages but just can not see it anymore.

And have you completely and utterly just ignored my post about his argument with Robert in AGOT, i thought that was worth discussion, but it seems you have brushed that aside, how convenient.  

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You are mistaken. There is precedent both in real life and in the novels themselves of people marrying against their parents or their kings wishes. And eloping and then hiding until a pregnancy results was a real tactic employed when a couple wish to marry and have no blessing. In book we have several examples. And no the marriage is not invalid. But this isn't a thread about if they wed or not. 

Tini is correct when saying though that he never returned with plans to overthrow his father. Thats the long long game for him. Rhaegar actually returns and urges his father to call for Tywin to help him win the war.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm more interested in if there is evidence. There is no evidence she would want to tell Ned anything, there is no evidence she had any knowledge of it herself.  

If were talking textual evidence, theres loads. Throughout the books are scattered tales that Ashara and Ned cared for each other alot. Thats reason enough there for her to want to tell him things such as the location of his sister after he has already lost his father and brother. Is it not?

[Macgregor of the North]

14 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

My only theories on the ToJ involve Darkstar being there as a squire. Ashara and Wylla are pretty unimportant to that, them knowing or being anywhere in particular makes no odds. 

Yes but since this thread, and our lengthy discussion is not about Darkstar, but about Wylla and Ashara, let's keep to that. 

Darkstar being there has no bearing whatsoever on if Ashara told Ned, or if Wylla was there does it so that renders him pretty unimportant to this thread rather I'd say no?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Nope, still unborn and therefore unsafe while the baby is still inside Lyanna(a Stark's belly). The more people who know her location, the worse it is for his third heads safety. And Lyannas, lets not forget, he cares for the girl.

 

Were getting there.

Yup he sure did. But Because Rhaegar has discussed his love at KL that in no way whatsoever confirms he was telling her location to people. Lyanna is guarded by his three best men he believes, he can focus on training the crownlands levies and winning the war now, he would not be disclosing Lyannas location to anymore people i dont think, he doesnt have to. And Ned didnt have to find out the exact location at Storms End, he could have been heading south and been picking up bits of information here and there and even could have been seeked out by someone himnself. But since you are so dead set on Ashara wanting to tell Ned anything you dont wanna hear that do ya?. If you open your mind up to it, the possibilities of Ned finding out after he leaves KL are there. You just dont wanna entertain them it seems. I have analysed the possibility of him finding out at KL for ages and ages but just can not see it anymore.

And have you completely and utterly just ignored my post about his argument with Robert in AGOT, i thought that was worth discussion, but it seems you have brushed that aside, how convenient.  

We are talking people loyal to him, I am not suggesting he told everyone and anyone. I'm saying he likely told a few select people. And I gave examples. I also gave examples which prove he must have discussed her at least with these people. And I suggested some others may know somethings simply due to general gossip, chatter etc. 

 

I haven't ignored your post at all, I simply missed it. 

I think you make some excellent points in that now howether since I have scrolled back and read it. And you have indeed swayed me to think perhaps he gleaned his knowledge not in KL but on his route to storms end or shortly after. 

But I'm still not buying Ashara. There isn't evidence all over the books that they cared for one another at all. There is evidence that Ned fancied her, but that Brandon bedded her and got her with child. There is evidence that Ned doesn't want his staff gossiping about her, but this is just as easily explained that he doesn't want anyone discussing Jon's mother, or that he feels shame at his brothers behaviour towards her as anything else. There is nothing between the two of them to indicate she would betray her brother to reveal to Ned Lyanna's location. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yes but since this thread, and our lengthy discussion is not about Darkstar, but about Wylla and Ashara, let's keep to that. 

Darkstar being there has no bearing whatsoever on if Ashara told Ned, or if Wylla was there does it so that renders him pretty unimportant to this thread rather I'd say no?

Pretty sure I haven't gone into my theory as to him at all, but simply revealed to you that my only theory regards the ToJ in no way depends upon either woman or her location at the time. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@The Weirwoods Eyes 

Quote

I haven't ignored your post at all, I simply missed it. 

I think you make some excellent points in that now howether since I have scrolled back and read it. And you have indeed swayed me to think perhaps he gleaned his knowledge not in KL but on his route to storms end or shortly after. 

I have to quote differently, as I'm on my phone. Thank you though. I appreciate the comment there.

Quote

But I'm still not buying Ashara. There isn't evidence all over the books that they cared for one another at all. There is evidence that Ned fancied her, but that Brandon bedded her and got her with child. 

Absolute Rubbish. There is actual evidence from Allyria of Starfall and Harwin of Winterfell specifically naming both Ned and Ashara as being in love and possibly having relations together. As to Brandon what is there but theories on forums? Show me the evidence please that states exactly that Brandon bedded her.

Now remember, we are talking evidence in the books here not theories. State your case with quotes and I'll do the same.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Tini is correct when saying though that he never returned with plans to overthrow his father. Thats the long long game for him. Rhaegar actually returns and urges his father to call for Tywin to help him win the war.

Rhaegar tells Jaime that when he returns he will be making some changes, ones he should have made long ago. I paraphrase. But yes I think we can assume he intended to depose Aerys once the war was won. 

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Rhaegar tells Jaime that when he returns he will be making some changes, ones he should have made long ago. I paraphrase. But yes I think we can assume he intended to depose Aerys once the war was won. 

Agreed but I think Tini was commenting on how you were seeming to state he returned to overthrow his father. He returned to help him win the war. 

Afterward he would have seeked to cement his own rule however he had it planned in his own head. 

Anyways. Back to the debate.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Barristan is all the evidence we need. He doesn't hate Ned, he seems to respect him. 

But we know from him it was Stark who Ashara turned to. Not much chance that was Ned, given he hasn't a bad word to say of the man. 

Barristan aslo thinks how Women always chose fire over mud. Now unless you think he see's Ned as Fire...well. 

Brandon is on record as loving to deflower maidens. And not giving a shit about their futures. 

Ned was shy, Brandon was Bold. Ned only got to dance with Ashara because Brandon asked her. 

Ned seems to hold a certain bitterness towards his brother, it's only a hint, so I doubt he truly resented him. But he does think at one point of how it was all meant for Brandon. And that kinda hints at some past slight. ie: sleeping with the girl Ned fancied. There is a bitter note to his thoughts here and the prompt does involve a woman- Cat.

I don't think Ashara Dayne gave Eddard Stark even a cursory glance. I think it's obvious it was his hot headed older brother whom she was interested in.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Agreed but I think Tini was commenting on how you were seeming to state he returned to overthrow his father. He returned to help him win the war. 

Afterward he would have seeked to cement his own rule however he had it planned in his own head. 

Anyways. Back to the debate.

I certainly did not mean that at all. I was unaware my comment was coming across as me thinking that at all. 

[Tini]

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You are mistaken. There is precedent both in real life and in the novels themselves of people marrying against their parents or their kings wishes. And eloping and then hiding until a pregnancy results was a real tactic employed when a couple wish to marry and have no blessing. In book we have several examples. And no the marriage is not invalid. But this isn't a thread about if they wed or not. 

They would've had to get rid of Aerys first - which Rhaegar fully intended. Aerys would've declared it invalid - and disinherited Rhaegar. Rhaegar had a son by Elia already. Rhaegar was no longer needed.
And then we'd have to look at the marriage treaty between Elia and Rhaegar if a second wife was permissible - and under which circumstances.

If we look at examples, there are examples in the books, too, of men and women who express they cannot marry without their father's permission.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Barristan is all the evidence we need. He doesn't hate Ned, he seems to respect him. 

But we know from him it was Stark who Ashara turned to. Not much chance that was Ned, given he hasn't a bad word to say of the man. 

Barristan aslo thinks how Women always chose fire over mud. Now unless you think he see's Ned as Fire...well. 

Brandon is on record as loving to deflower maidens. And not giving a shit about their futures. 

Ned was shy, Brandon was Bold. Ned only got to dance with Ashara because Brandon asked her. 

Ned seems to hold a certain bitterness towards his brother, it's only a hint, so I doubt he truly resented him. But he does think at one point of how it was all meant for Brandon. And that kinda hints at some past slight. ie: sleeping with the girl Ned fancied. There is a bitter note to his thoughts here and the prompt does involve a woman- Cat.

I don't think Ashara Dayne gave Eddard Stark even a cursory glance. I think it's obvious it was his hot headed older brother whom she was interested in.  

I had a feeling you would do this.

It doesn't name Brandon specifically.

And Were also talking about concrete evidence from the books, as in names being named etc that would show Ashara would care enough/ or not care enough, to tell Ned the location of his sister.

Your post doesn't do that I believe. It doesn't show that Ashara has no reason to tell Ned at all, in fact all that post does is push another theory of yours lol.

Also, can you quote the Barristan "fire over mud" part of the books. I don't recall the wording and would like to read it to see if that's the exact wording.

[Notlad]

1 hour ago, Tini said:

They fought, but not in order to win; they intended to die honorably, in battle.
I think that is the only reason why Ned's group was able to defeat them, and at so little loss. 

I had this same thought as well. I don't think any of Ned's group would have lived through that encounter had the three KG fought to really win. 

 

I have also wondered if Ser Arthur's words " and now it begins" might have had more meaning than just, now the fight begins. If Rhaegar had told Ser Arthur his beliefs concerning the prophecy then those words would have carried more weight.

Thanks for the great input and apologies for getting off topic concerning Ned Dayne, Arya, and Wylla.

[Macgregor of the North]

@The Weirwoods Eyes I found it myself.

"Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. 
You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. 

Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time."

I see where your coming from from but he's specifically talking about Dany, the young girl, and what he thinks of her wants and needs.

And are we sure he thinks of his Lady Ashara in the same light as "fools, children and young girls".

Maybe he does. Anyway, I'll add before we totally derail. I have never been able to 100% make my mind up on Brandon and Ashara for some reason. I don't know why. I'm not throwing water on it, But if you wanna tag me in an Ashara Brandon thread we can duke it out there.

[Tini]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Because the alternative that he spontaneously travelled to Starfall and was told by Ashara where to find her brother whom he intended to fight to the death if required is too daft. Ashara has no reason to want to tell Ned anything, it wasn't him she got pregnant by. And Ned has no reason to travel to Starfall seeking information about Lyanna. And Arthur has no real reason to have told his sister where he was and who he was guarding or why. 

We don't know what of the circumstances surrounding the Tower of Joy, so how can you be sure Arthur can have had no reason to tell his sister anything?

People were at the Tower of Joy. Rhaegar, Lyanna, Arthur, Oswell, Gerold. Lyanna was pregnant. Rhaegar, and at least some of the King's Guard absent for extended stretches of time. None of them were cooks, servants, caretakers. None of them were female, to provide Lyanna company, a lady-in-waiting as befits a princess.

There were probably servants around who took care of feeding the group of nobles. But only a woman of high rank would've been fit to be Lyanna's companion. Someone she could talk to - and who would confirm that Lyanna didn't sleep around. If you are looking for such a woman - would you ask your sister? Or would you ask a total stranger?

I think it's possible that Ashara stayed with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. And travelled back to Starfall with Ned.

Arthur, or even Rhaegar himself, may have involved her in their plot. They might also have picked her because she knew Lyanna. (Ashara knew wild wolf Brandon, and quiet wolf Ned. She may have met Lyanna, then, too.)

We don't know who Ashara got pregnant by. We don't actually know that she got pregnant. We only have Barristan Selmy's memory of rumors that she gave birth to a still-born daughter. This doesn't seem to be common knowledge, so the question is how Selmy learned of it. Through his KG brothers involved in the Tower of Joy plot?

While that doesn't tell us if she told Ned where to find Lyanna, it might explain her suicide. Her brother chose death, too.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

11 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have mentioned the significance of the underlined part in the OP. Wylla still lives and resides in Starfall, at time of Edric making the comment. (299AC).

As to the bolded part.

Arya doesn't ask straight out if Ned knew Wylla though does she. Check. I have a sneaky feeling GRRM wanted us to pick something up here.

"Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"
"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."
"Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face."
"Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House."

It's after Arya confirms that Jon never knew his mother that Edric gets a little spooked it seems, I'm wondering if he stops to think something's amiss with the plan to name Wylla as the mother of Jon and then wonders if he's said too much and backs off from the topic completely with his meek "Wylla was my Wet Nurse". 

It seems to me like a straight up sense of, "shit, I'm done with this topic, what has my mouth done". 

Or, I'm over analysing, I do it with these books. Of course I'm not trying to twist people's arms but I sense something amiss. Or possibly its foreshadowing that the Lord of House Dayne will play a part with Jon and his reveal?. There's something going on though I believe. 

As to Tommen and Edric, the two boys couldn't be more different. One is the future of one of the oldest houses in the world through true blood, groomed properly to rule and subjected to war campaigns with grown men etc etc, the other is a silly little baby who was ignored by his 'father/s' and smothered by his mother to a negative degree, and who was placed on the iron throne with no good reason to be used as a puppet. 

There is a vast difference between the two lads, just saying.

Oh I know, I just came to the conversation a little late and wanted to bring it up again. In all the RLJ discussions the tendency is to credit Howland Reed as the eventual revealer of Jon's parentage, so this teeny tiny little mention is actually a Really Big Deal. 

As far as Ned exiting the conversation, what would you say to the idea that, until the very moment Arya reveals she has no idea who Wylla is, Ned Dayne thought Wylla being the mother of Ned Stark's base-born son was common knowledge? Or at least common knowledge in the Dayne and Stark households. Once confronted with Arya's ignorance regarding Wylla, Ned Dayne begins to question his own knowledge, and that is why he seemingly shuts down. Because I am still not convinced Ned has been granted knowledge of all of House Dayne's secrets. Yes, he is the Lord, and yes he is a very different boy than either Tommen or Sweetrobin, but he is still just a boy. We do not know the circumstances under which he became Lord, but if the transition was an abrupt one, perhaps there was not time to fully educate him regarding all the secrets of his House? He may even have already been squired to Lord Beric when he became Lord, we simply do not know. 

I do agree House Dayne will have a role to play going forward - the known and unknown information we have regarding the Daynes makes it clear, at least to me. I also agree it can be very easy to overanalyze the books, especially as the wait for Winds continues. 

I know Tommen and Ned Dayne are two very different boys, but my underlying point still stands: boy lords may be lords, but they are also still boys, with advisors who make a lot of decisions for them, including what information to disclose and what information to withhold. And while Ned Dayne's advisors are likely miles better than either Tommen's or Sweetrobin's, they may have thought revealing the existence of a secret claimant to the throne may best be revealed once their lord is a little more mature, or a little more secure, than he currently is. We do not know who among the Dayne household has even been let in on this particular bit of world-shattering knowledge. 

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Oh I know, I just came to the conversation a little late and wanted to bring it up again. In all the RLJ discussions the tendency is to credit Howland Reed as the eventual revealer of Jon's parentage, so this teeny tiny little mention is actually a Really Big Deal. 

As far as Ned exiting the conversation, what would you say to the idea that, until the very moment Arya reveals she has no idea who Wylla is, Ned Dayne thought Wylla being the mother of Ned Stark's base-born son was common knowledge? Or at least common knowledge in the Dayne and Stark households. Once confronted with Arya's ignorance regarding Wylla, Ned Dayne begins to question his own knowledge, and that is why he seemingly shuts down. Because I am still not convinced Ned has been granted knowledge of all of House Dayne's secrets. Yes, he is the Lord, and yes he is a very different boy than either Tommen or Sweetrobin, but he is still just a boy. We do not know the circumstances under which he became Lord, but if the transition was an abrupt one, perhaps there was not time to fully educate him regarding all the secrets of his House? He may even have already been squired to Lord Beric when he became Lord, we simply do not know. 

I do agree House Dayne will have a role to play going forward - the known and unknown information we have regarding the Daynes makes it clear, at least to me. I also agree it can be very easy to overanalyze the books, especially as the wait for Winds continues. 

I know Tommen and Ned Dayne are two very different boys, but my underlying point still stands: boy lords may be lords, but they are also still boys, with advisors who make a lot of decisions for them, including what information to disclose and what information to withhold. And while Ned Dayne's advisors are likely miles better than either Tommen's or Sweetrobin's, they may have thought revealing the existence of a secret claimant to the throne may best be revealed once their lord is a little more mature, or a little more secure, than he currently is. We do not know who among the Dayne household has even been let in on this particular bit of world-shattering knowledge. 

That's a well thought out angle on it E-M. Of course, Edric had been Berics page since 7. Which meant any info he had received from Allyria, (or Wylla herself?), on the topic had to have been at Starfall before he left to take up service with Beric, or on trips home as he got older(and more curious I could add).

You are right of course that they may have not divulged the full story to him as such by now but I'm more and more certain this exchange we are discussion means something. Maybe Edric is a very curious boy who has his own suspicions and has been piecing things together or at least pondering it quietly.

He is quite intimated by Arya, but still tests the waters with the Jon Snow question, so it's something he thinks on.

So with Edric being on the move again and to what purpose only GRRM knows exactly, maybe he will come across people he will dig deeper with into his suspicions now. Arya has already threw him with her comment "who's Wylla", Jon never even knew his mothers name type of thing.

So, next time Edric sees a member of his house, Wylla, or anybody really that he thinks was around at that era he could ask the questions regarding his suspicions about why the Starks of Winterfell didn't go along with the plan to tell Jon his mother was Wylla.

Bingo! Now at this point, he is the Lord of Starfall and a young experienced lad of battles and hardships. If he demands truth on a certain matter, who's to outright refuse him that? I suppose it depends who he talks to. If it's a member of his house, Or Wylla herself, the refusal may be hard. 

IMO, things are finally about to move into next gear with House Dayne. Or at least I hope they are haha.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

IMO, things are finally about to move into next gear with House Dayne. Or at least I hope they are haha.

We can only hope. Oh, and wait and wait and wait some more.