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wolfmaid7

Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

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First i want to thank everyone that took part in the project ,and a special thanks to the troopers that furnished us with the essays.I decided to have everyone do summaries just to refresh what has been discussed through the project as part as an extended OP. We then simply debate what has been put forth like before and  have more of a compare/ comparison  look at each essay and the points in relation to the story.Not every point made appear in the summaries ,but feel free to ask questions about a point, or raise a point not reiterated in the summary.

What seemed to be of importance when discussing Jon's parentage are the following:

1.Narrative sense.

2.Thematic sense.

3."Evidence." I put that in quotation because if there's one thing this project has shown is there are difference of opinions in what constituites as evidence.

4.Timeline is another sub topic that is hotly debated and we can't get away from it,so in the mix it is.

If i forgot anything that you guys think should have been on the list but isn't ,go right ahead and bring it up.

Lastly,we all can get a little heated under the collar when discussing this (guilty of that myself),so lets try and keep it as civil as possible and just have a nice discussion.

Jump in at anytime to discuss "once" I've posted all (7-8)  summaries.

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These discussions have been interesting in that there's clearly different perspective on the texts and what they are saying.

For the purpose of this wrap up thread, i would like for us to focus on what the essays provide as clues.This encompasses anything you think are clues that point to a particular prospect being true.

Dive on in.

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I would like to reply to @Sly Wren's post from the previous thread.

Quote

Right--all the more reason for Rhaegar to turn to people he knew he could trust. In Dorne, we know he trusts Arthur Dayne.

I agree that that would make sense. Though I'd also argue for caution, as Arthur's friendship and support does not necessarily mean that Arthur's family supported Rhaegar as well, it does increase the possibility of them helping Rhaegar, to be sure.

 

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I agree on the "unlikely"--but hiding in his wife's homeland, especially one that resisted Targ rule, brings innate problems if he gets found. As @Black Crow notes, the problem is the duration. The longer they are there, the more likely they will be found/stumbled upon. If he wants to be sure of whatever his plan is, going someplace with people he trusts--that makes more sense than just hoping no one unfriendly finds him when he's in a pass in his wife's homeland.

People will not be looking for him in the homeland of his wife, whom he has just insulted. When exactly he arrived in Dorne, I do not know, and I don't think we have anything from which we can deduct it at the moment. Only that they appear to have been there when Gerold Hightower found them, but when did he find them? We don't know that, either. But even if they had been there for several months in total, being able to avoid capture might still be possible. Look at Gared, from the Night's Watch, who evaded arrest (and his subsequent execution) for more than half a year in the North.

And who knows, perhaps the reason Gerold Hightower eventually found Rhaegar was because one of their group had been spotted by people living in the mountains, and word spread, eventually reaching Gerold. After all "rumor had it that [Rhaegar] was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne".

 

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I was going with the general history the Dornish have of resisting unified rule. Took a long time to conquer them and then they immediately started rebelling. And the Martells got to keep their "Prince" titles.

Aerys may just have been being horrifying, but he seems to think it's necessary to threaten the Martells to get their support in the war. And they don't join the Rebellion until the Trident, right? 

Just seems like the books tell us they don't like being ruled. And the stony Dornish were part of all of those fights against the Targs, far as I could tell. 

That the Dornish have fought against the Targaryens does not make them "not interested in Targaryen rule", and that a lot of fighting (but most definitly not all) occured at the borders does not mean that the stony Dornishmen have particular hate for the Targaryens that the other dornish might not have.

The Dornish did not want to be subdued, stripped of the rights they had, and placed under the rule of another just like that. It would require giving up so many things. That's why they fought Aegon I, and later on Daeron I, and rebelled as soon as they got the chance following the Conquest of Dorne. Marrying one of their princesses to a Targaryen, however, resulted in both peace, as well as their involvement in Targaryen rule. Especially when Viserys II took the throne, as Daeron was now in direct line for the throne, and Mariah would one day become Queen. Her half-Martell children would one day rule the six Kingdoms that were under Targaryen rule, with their Martell relatives ruling the seventh. That this mattered to the Dornish became apparent when Aegon IV had to seek naval support from across the narrow sea to attack Dorne, presumably with the reasoning that he could only displace Daeron (and thus Daeron's half-dornish heirs) after his Dornish support had been defeated.

And Maron's subsequent marriage to Daenerys allowed for the Dornish to join together with the Targaryens, unifying their realms, while the Dornish were able to keep all they had fought to preserve. 

However, Prince Maron had won a few concessions in the accord, and the lords of Dorne held significant rights and privileges that the other great houses did not—the right to keep their royal title first among them, but also the autonomy to maintain their own laws, the right to assess and gather the taxes due to the Iron Throne with only irregular oversight from the Red Keep, and other such matters.

And, while keeping all they had wanted to keep, the Dornish ensured that they would no longer have to go to war against the other kingdoms.

The time Doran's mother spend at King's Landing as Rhaella's lady-in-waiting, and Elia's betrothal to the crown prince, both also heavily involve the Dornish in Targaryen rule. Actively. So while I agree that they refused to be subdued like the other kingsdoms had been, I have to disagree that this made them not interested in Targaryen rule. Saying that they are not interested in Targaryen rule implies that they have actively tried to avoid it during these three centuries, and that is not the case. They had agreed to become part of the Seven Kingdoms, and did so on their own terms. Even if Maron had not agreed to Daeron's terms, I strongly doubt Daeron would have gone to war over it.

As to Aerys, do not forget that the Martells had favored Rhaegar over Aerys, which had already infuriated him. In addition, Doran had refused to give aid to House Targaryen out of anger over the way Elia had been treated, and I would assume that this means both by Rhaegar (who insulted his wife on multiple occasions), but also Aerys, who had done nothing to correct Rhaegar's behaviour, and had summoned Elia and her children to King's Landing as well (though we do not know when during the war this happened, so this might have become important only during the later part of the war). In the end, however, Doran did agree to sent soldiers, but instead of accepting help, Aerys threatened the lives of Elia and her children.

So when Rhaegar died on the Trident, Aerys, apparently looking for a reason as to why Rhaegar died and the battle was lost, blamed it on the Dornishmen, whom he had not been no good terms with for a few years (a change in his attitude that appears to have begun around the time of Elia's marriage to Rhaegar, or shortly after). And if you think about it, Aerys's reasoning, while likely incorrect, might not have been that far-fetched. With Aerys and Rhaegar dead, the next in line for the throne was Aegon, Elia's half-dornish son. Now that Rhaegar was dead, Aerys was the only one who stood between Aegon and the throne. And we know how he "solved" that problem, by naming Viserys his heir and sending him to Dragonstone.

When Aerys began to threaten Elia's life is not stated, but Doran only agreed to sent aid after Rhaegar returned from the south. Aerys threatening Lewyn appears to have been closer to the moment the armies marched from KL. 

 

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

One quick thing I've been meaning to ask you--and anyone else who knows RLJ theory well: there's an SSM I've seen referenced a few times, allegedly saying that Martin confirmed that Rhaegar said Lyanna's name in Dany's vision. I've looked everywhere I can think of including every SSM in the Citadel with "Lyanna" or Lyanna's" in it. No joy. Any chance you know that SSM and have the link? Or could just point me in the right direction where I could rummage for it?

If not, or if you don't have time, no worries. Just trying to pin that down.

I don't know about any SSM, but I do know that it is stated in the app:

Leading a large host to the Trident, Rhaegar met Robert in battle. Dueling on horseback in the fording river, Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips.

(GRRM's A World of Ice and Fire, Rhaegar Targaryen)

And since the name is not revealed in the books, it would be one of those little tidbits that Martin apparently revealed when the app was being written. In both cases, however, Martin is still the source.

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I understand RT,but i'm really trying for keeping it within the scope of the current thread. Things get a bit chaotic afterward.What was in the last thread,was in the last thread so let's for the sake of keeping things organized stay on topic.We can hash out the app and everything surrounding it afterwards on another thread.:D

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2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I agree that that would make sense. Though I'd also argue for caution, as Arthur's friendship and support does not necessarily mean that Arthur's family supported Rhaegar as well, it does increase the possibility of them helping Rhaegar, to be sure.

Agreed. But we have Arthur thick as thieves with Rhaegar. And Ashara in Elia's inner circle.  And the significance of Ashara to be determined in the novels. And the significance of Edric (Ned) Dayne's pop-up appearance in the novels as yet to be determined. And the Daynes' apparently teaching their heir to like, respect, and be nicknamed after the man who killed their literally chosen son. If the Daynes hid Lyanna and Ned kept the Daynes' secret, that would go a long way to explaining their regard for him.

And, as Sword of the Morning, seems like Arthur's family must think rather highly of him. Apparently Daynes don't choose a Sword of the Morning for every generation. But they chose him--so, he's probably on pretty good terms with them.

All the other families' ties/loyalty to Rhaegar are hypothetical. Just hangers on? Did he really trust them? No idea. Doran and Hotah make it sound like the Dornish in general are fairly contentious with each other. So, Daynes seem like Rhaegar's best bet so far. 

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

People will not be looking for him in the homeland of his wife, whom he has just insulted.

They don't have to search for him. Just stumble on him (like happens more than a few times in the novels). And in that region, where the stony Dornish don't always get along with each other or with the marchers, there's a good chance they'd be keeping an eye out--period.

Quote

And who knows, perhaps the reason Gerold Hightower eventually found Rhaegar was because one of their group had been spotted by people living in the mountains, and word spread, eventually reaching Gerold. After all "rumor had it that [Rhaegar] was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne".

Or, he found them at a place where they were safe and could easily get news--Starfall.

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That the Dornish have fought against the Targaryens does not make them "not interested in Targaryen rule", and that a lot of fighting (but most definitly not all) occured at the borders does not mean that the stony Dornishmen have particular hate for the Targaryens that the other dornish might not have.

I agree--but on this and the rest: Doran and Areo Hotah make it sound like the Dornish are generally disunited and tumultuous: 

Dorne was an angry and divided land, and Prince Doran's hold on it was not as firm as it might be. Many of his own lords thought him weak and would have welcomed open war with the Lannisters and the boy king on the Iron Throne. Dance, The Watcher.

We've got no evidence Rhaegar was able to unify any of them. Or trust any of them with any of his plans. We do know he trusted a Dayne above all others.

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

When Aerys began to threaten Elia's life is not stated, but Doran only agreed to sent aid after Rhaegar returned from the south. Aerys threatening Lewyn appears to have been closer to the moment the armies marched from KL. 

Are you assuming that Rhaegar convinced the Dornish to come north? 

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

And since the name is not revealed in the books, it would be one of those little tidbits that Martin apparently revealed when the app was being written. In both cases, however, Martin is still the source.

1.  Thank you very much for pinning that down.

2. Might be it came from Martin. Or it might be a mistake that we can't check until it's published in the book. Apparently there were a number of mistakes initially, only found via comparison to the novels.

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13 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I understand RT,but i'm really trying for keeping it within the scope of the current thread. Things get a bit chaotic afterward.What was in the last thread,was in the last thread so let's for the sake of keeping things organized stay on topic.We can hash out the app and everything surrounding it afterwards on another thread.:D

Are you thinking a list of evidences for comparison and contrast?

@Kingmonkey:

Quote

Generally whilst on roads. You do expect to see other travellers when you're on a road. Our examples of people being found while hiding out in the wilderness are more limited. What's more, that's a sample that is selected for by the very nature of the beast. Someone being stumbled upon is an event, someone not being stumbled upon is the lack of an event. We tend to hear about events rather than lacks of events.

The prince's pass, one way or another, is a big, main road. Side places are still part of that. And while it's limited, we do have the examples. if this mattered to Rhaegar, you'd think he'd worry about being stumbled upon. Especially since Martin has shown how bad that can be.

Quote

Well aaaactually... it turns out that if you want to hide a Stark maid for a year or so whilst getting her pregnant, the precedent is you hide her in one place, out of sight, and not that far from where there is plenty of traffic. The Stark maid that Bael of the Blue Roses kidnapped was not on the move, or surrounded by Bael's allies, or in disguise in plain sight. In a castle, kind of. The crypts beneath a castle, anyway. Beneath an old abandoned tower...

Touche, ser! So, to adjust: in Martinlandia, if you want to hide a Stark Maid who isn't part of a song where we know the bard could exaggerate with impunity--if you want to hide her according to a real-Martinlandia-example, hide her in disguise in plain sight.

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30 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed. But we have Arthur thick as thieves with Rhaegar. And Ashara in Elia's inner circle.  And the significance of Ashara to be determined in the novels. And the significance of Edric (Ned) Dayne's pop-up appearance in the novels as yet to be determined. And the Daynes' apparently teaching their heir to like, respect, and be nicknamed after the man who killed their literally chosen son. If the Daynes hid Lyanna and Ned kept the Daynes' secret, that would go a long way to explaining their regard for him.

And, as Sword of the Morning, seems like Arthur's family must think rather highly of him. Apparently Daynes don't choose a Sword of the Morning for every generation. But they chose him--so, he's probably on pretty good terms with them.

All the other families' ties/loyalty to Rhaegar are hypothetical. Just hangers on? Did he really trust them? No idea. Doran and Hotah make it sound like the Dornish in general are fairly contentious with each other. So, Daynes seem like Rhaegar's best bet so far. 

If you think about it, Ashara's ties to Elia are actually rather interesting, especially in this scenario. If Elia was not a supporter of Rhaegar's plans, the Elia-Ashara association might not have made Starfall such a welcoming place to Rhaegar.. I guess it would depend on which sibling Lord Dayne would decide to listen to, in such a scenario :)

Although, Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting... but were they friends? We do not know. And what was the opinion of House Dayne after Ashara left court? Did she leave voluntarily, or was she send away?

 

30 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Are you assuming that Rhaegar convinced the Dornish to come north? 

I don't know, but I do find the timing very suspicious.. Perhaps Rhaegar said something in a message to Doran that convinced Doran to support him... Or perhaps Rhaegar convinced Elia to convince Doran to send aid.. There are several possibilities, but as I said, I find the timing suspicious..

 

30 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

1.  Thank you very much for pinning that down.

2. Might be it came from Martin. Or it might be a mistake that we can't check until it's published in the book. Apparently there were a number of mistakes initially, only found via comparison to the novels.

1. No problem!

2. There's a thread for reporting mistakes. And I suppose you can also ask Ran. But as long as nothing contradicts it, I wouldn't call it a mistake.

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38 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Are you thinking a list of evidences for comparison and contrast?

Yep. Comparison,contrast and discussions.You can draw up for Arthur etc.

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3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

After all "rumor had it that [Rhaegar] was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne".

Whether or not the World Book or the App have material that came from GRRM, even he does not recognize those two as "canon". They both should be viewed as in-world resources. The World Book, for instance is credited as being written by maesters as a gift for King Robert. Of course it would include popular beliefs pleasing to the king.

http://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/post/4864/thread 

The only canonical source states that Rhaegar returned from "the south". It does not say anything further about where he was and who he was with. 

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

When Aerys began to threaten Elia's life is not stated, but Doran only agreed to sent aid after Rhaegar returned from the south.

The text states:

The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.

You'll have to help me locate the text that states that Doran only agreed to send them aid after Rhaegar returned from "the south". 

The text implies the ten thousand Dornishmen had no commander. Aerys had to force one of his kingsguard, Lewyn Martell, to assume the command. It's after Aerys had already sent Lewyn, and after Darry and Selmy left to rally the remnants of griffin's men at Stoney Sept that it is said Rhaegar returned from the south.

The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father (Tywin). But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the kind even more afraid...(snip)

It is possible that Rhaegar had been leading the ten thousand Dornishmen, and had rode ahead of them to advise his father, but it is not explicitly said. If Rhaegar was commanding the Dornish, why rush to the Trident without them? They do catch up though, because Lewyn dies at the Trident as well. 

 

Sorry, I have to cut this reply off short. I'll be back later to finish.

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In his interview on the World Book he states that when legend and truth conflict; print the legend.  The truth is less interesting and ruins everyones fun.  LOL. He also doesn't comment directly on the interviewers statement about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna.  But he does go on to say that the Targaryens are interlopers in Westeros and only maintained primacy because of their dragons.  He also says that Robert and others began to realize that the Targaryens could be overthrown.  This is echoed in Elder Brother's statement that the singers would have you believe the war was over the love of a woman as opposed to who would rule the kingdom.

 I did purchase the World Book.  It's absolutely beautiful, but I don't have the app.  It's interesting to know that most of the book is written by Maester Yandel and makes use of Archmaester Glyndane's found notes which are scarce and incomplete.  Also that Martin is responsible for the sidebars in the book by Glyndane.  All this is covered in the first 20 minutes of the interview. 

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4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The prince's pass, one way or another, is a big, main road.

It's thousands of square miles. Up to a hundred miles wide. It's much more than a main road. The vast majority of the Prince's Pass wouldn't even be in view of the road.

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Touche, ser! So, to adjust: in Martinlandia, if you want to hide a Stark Maid who isn't part of a song where we know the bard could exaggerate with impunity--if you want to hide her according to a real-Martinlandia-example, hide her in disguise in plain sight.

So you wouldn't hide her in a difficult-to-reach tower perched up in the mountains close by the main road leading through a mountain pass from one kingdom to another? Particularly when the example of the Vale Clans shows us that people have a tendency to get found in such mountains, right?

Well aaaactually... doesn't that describe where Sansa was hidden? :D

You may have an argument for Lyanna having been in disguise at the toj! That would assuage people's concerns about the possibility of a random patrol in the Red Mountains happening to stumble over them, right?

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4 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

So you wouldn't hide her in a difficult-to-reach tower perched up in the mountains close by the main road leading through a mountain pass from one kingdom to another?

Is it really perched up in the mountains.  Going by the Lands of Ice and Fire; which I take to be canon and the most current depiction; it looks like the ToJ is located at the mouth of the pass on valley floor.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d027cbda0bd8afc817bff2f235bde7cb?convert_to_webp=true

 

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13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Is it really perched up in the mountains.  Going by the Lands of Ice and Fire; which I take to be canon and the most current depiction; it looks like the ToJ is located at the mouth of the pass on valley floor.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d027cbda0bd8afc817bff2f235bde7cb?convert_to_webp=true

 

If that map is completely accurate, then yes the toj would be easy to spot. It's about 15 miles high, after all. :D I'm not sure you should read that much precision into the map. We do it far too much as it is, GRRM doesn't approve of accurate maps. 

That said, it does look a bit there like the ToJ is in the foothills of the mountains at the mouth of valley, so maybe? On the other hand that still doesn't prove it's close to the road, because the map doesn't actually show a road. 

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5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If you think about it, Ashara's ties to Elia are actually rather interesting, especially in this scenario. If Elia was not a supporter of Rhaegar's plans, the Elia-Ashara association might not have made Starfall such a welcoming place to Rhaegar.. I guess it would depend on which sibling Lord Dayne would decide to listen to, in such a scenario :)

Although, Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting... but were they friends? We do not know. And what was the opinion of House Dayne after Ashara left court? Did she leave voluntarily, or was she send away?

Yes--Ashara is very interesting to me. Why she left court--that's got to be somewhat important.

And I, too, wonder if she was actually friends with Elia. Or if, like Arthur, she was close to Rhaegar. Which might have bearing on whether the Starfall plan is a viable theory.

And if she's closer to Rhaegar, enter the stereotype of Medieval men carrying on with their wives ladies in waiting. After all, in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, Rhaegar looks at her--so, was he just looking off into the distance, or was he looking at someone in the room with him and Elia? Perhaps someone we're told bears a resemblance to Dany?

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I don't know, but I do find the timing very suspicious.. Perhaps Rhaegar said something in a message to Doran that convinced Doran to support him... Or perhaps Rhaegar convinced Elia to convince Doran to send aid.. There are several possibilities, but as I said, I find the timing suspicious..

All fair. I tend to lend more credence to what @Feather Crystal noted above re: Aerys. But I, too, have wondered if Rhaegar might have been trying to finagle something with the Martells. Wouldn't that have been an interesting convo to overhear?

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

There's a thread for reporting mistakes. And I suppose you can also ask Ran. But as long as nothing contradicts it, I wouldn't call it a mistake.

Yes--that thread: if I'm right, mistakes were found because they contradicted the books, yes? So, it's  harder to know if something's a mistake if it isn't in the books yet.

Given the massive undertaking for the app and the gargantuan amount of info the writers were dealing with, mistakes have to have been made. That's just human.

Or that could reflect in-world assumptions of the fictional writers of the World Book.

Or it could be right.

We need the next book. 

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5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yep. Comparison,contrast and discussions.You can draw up for Arthur etc.

I'll do my best to get to it in the next few days.

My list will be different that @superunknown5's--we don't agree re: his "Cyrano" scenario. 

But I'll see what I can come up with.

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

It's thousands of square miles. Up to a hundred miles wide. It's much more than a main road. The vast majority of the Prince's Pass wouldn't even be in view of the road.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Is it really perched up in the mountains.  Going by the Lands of Ice and Fire; which I take to be canon and the most current depiction; it looks like the ToJ is located at the mouth of the pass on valley floor.

 

47 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

If that map is completely accurate, then yes the toj would be easy to spot. It's about 15 miles high, after all. :D I'm not sure you should read that much precision into the map. We do it far too much as it is, GRRM doesn't approve of accurate maps. 

That said, it does look a bit there like the ToJ is in the foothills of the mountains at the mouth of valley, so maybe? On the other hand that still doesn't prove it's close to the road, because the map doesn't actually show a road. 

One way or another, it has to have been built for something in the pass.

And we also know that Bran come close to being found at Queenscrown--a holdfast not too near the road. He's just lucky that the wildlings stay in the abandoned town instead.

An empty tower is shelter to travelers, wanderers, or raiders, too. There's just a lot of unknown variables--which only increase the longer you are there.

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

So you wouldn't hide her in a difficult-to-reach tower perched up in the mountains close by the main road leading through a mountain pass from one kingdom to another? Particularly when the example of the Vale Clans shows us that people have a tendency to get found in such mountains, right?

Well aaaactually... doesn't that describe where Sansa was hidden? :D

If I couldn't hide her in a well armed castle tower (vs. an abandoned watchtower) filled with servants and a maester and supplies, I could also go for a similarly well armed and supplied castle which also has at least one white stone tower (like the Eyrie's--the only two existing castles in the novels described as having purely white stone towers) and is on an island in a river at the base of a steep mountain valley and a waterfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. Who knows--maybe the Lady of Shallot will come floating by? :D 

(My apologies for the length of that sentence.)

Quote

You may have an argument for Lyanna having been in disguise at the toj! That would assuage people's concerns about the possibility of a random patrol in the Red Mountains happening to stumble over them, right?

Could really help. But Rhaegar and Arthur and Dawn--people would still ask questions. Or they could just run into random trouble--injuries, illness, running out of supplies--and need help. The longer they are isolated, the more likely something goes wrong. And getting news and sending messages--much easier to keep abreast of things if they are in a castle with ravens.

Rather like Baelish keeps on top of things at the Eyrie whilst holding onto his Stark maid.  

And, like Baelish and Sansa, perhaps Rhaegar and co. even briefly stayed at the tower of joy (like Baelish's Drearfort) before going to the white-towered castle. A white tower from which a woman allegedly threw herself in grief--not unlike what Lysa allegedly did.

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1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

If that map is completely accurate, then yes the toj would be easy to spot. It's about 15 miles high, after all. :D I'm not sure you should read that much precision into the map. We do it far too much as it is, GRRM doesn't approve of accurate maps. 

That said, it does look a bit there like the ToJ is in the foothills of the mountains at the mouth of valley, so maybe? On the other hand that still doesn't prove it's close to the road, because the map doesn't actually show a road. 

LOL.  Well however high the tower might be; I'm pretty sure I'm not going to see what's coming. Although I do find the name Tower of Joy reminiscent of Joyous Guard later called Dolorous Guard, kind of amusing.  If we're talking about legendary Arthurs.

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From TWOIAF - https://atlasoficeandfireblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/dorne.jpg?w=486&h=675

Regarding Ashara and Elia, they need not have been especially close. Joanna was a lady-in-waiting to Rhaella for about five years, but no mention is made of any friendship of note between them. Not to say they are the same situation, or that it couldn't turn out that Joanna and Rhaella or Ashara and Elia were friends at some point, but being a lady-in-waiting doesn't seem to automatically mean friends or close confidants.

Regarding Rhaegar's friends, Arthur Dayne was his best friend, but they were hardly his only supporters from Dorne. The Dornish who came to court with Elia are said to have been among his supporters, especially Lewyn Martell. Now, 278 is not 282, but we don't have any idea how Lewyn's relationship with Rhaegar changed after Harrenhal or after Lyanna's kidnapping, or how his priorities and oaths were ordered.

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11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Whether or not the World Book or the App have material that came from GRRM, even he does not recognize those two as "canon". They both should be viewed as in-world resources. The World Book, for instance is credited as being written by maesters as a gift for King Robert. Of course it would include popular beliefs pleasing to the king.

http://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/post/4864/thread 

It is not my intention to turn this into a discussion about the level of canonicity of our sources, but I will say this. The app is a semi-canon source. We've known that for quite some time (at least since 2014, though there might even be an older statement). The information that is in there that has not yet been published in a book before, might still change. It does not have to change, it might never change, but it is possible that it might, at some point, be changed into something else. The same is true for every So Spake Martin we have. Though I'm not sure whether you can see it as an in-world source, as character's secrets are discussed there which no maester could ever know.

However, my main point is that I feel that the information from semi-canon sources, as long as nothing contradicts them, should not simply be dismissed on the ground that they are semi-canon. We learned the name of Jaehaerys I's mother through the app before it was ever printed in a book.. That didn't make the value of the name any less. However, should the printed name have been another one, it would have been clear which one to go with from that point onwards.

 

As to the World Book, of course it is biased, on occasion. And of course Yandel is incorrect by accident at some points, and on purpose at others. He has to make some people look better than they were in reality, in an attempt to keep his head on his shoulders, after all :) 

 

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The only canonical source states that Rhaegar returned from "the south". It does not say anything further about where he was and who he was with. 

The text states:

The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.

 

You'll have to help me locate the text that states that Doran only agreed to send them aid after Rhaegar returned from "the south". 

We know from Yandel that

From Dorne, in defense of Princess Elia, ten thousand spears came over the Boneway and marched to King’s Landing to bolster the host that Rhaegar was raising.

That Rhaegar was already raising an army means that the dornishmen marched to King's Landing after Rhaegar returned, right?

 

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The text implies the ten thousand Dornishmen had no commander. Aerys had to force one of his kingsguard, Lewyn Martell, to assume the command. It's after Aerys had already sent Lewyn, and after Darry and Selmy left to rally the remnants of griffin's men at Stoney Sept that it is said Rhaegar returned from the south.

 

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The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father (Tywin). But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the kind even more afraid...(snip)

 

It is possible that Rhaegar had been leading the ten thousand Dornishmen, and had rode ahead of them to advise his father, but it is not explicitly said. If Rhaegar was commanding the Dornish, why rush to the Trident without them? They do catch up though, because Lewyn dies at the Trident as well. 

I'm not sure if we can conclude the chronology of events from this passage. I interpret this more as "these are the things that Aerys did after the Battle of the Bells", after which Jaime lists four.

Additionally, this passage says nothing about whether the ten thousand dornishmen arrived at the Trident with the remainder of Rhaegar's army, before, or after.  

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Sorry, I have to cut this reply off short. I'll be back later to finish.

 

No worries. :)

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6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--Ashara is very interesting to me. Why she left court--that's got to be somewhat important.

And I, too, wonder if she was actually friends with Elia. Or if, like Arthur, she was close to Rhaegar. Which might have bearing on whether the Starfall plan is a viable theory.

There are several possibilities, I agree. Let's hope The Winds of Winter gives us more information on that!

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

All fair. I tend to lend more credence to what @Feather Crystal noted above re: Aerys. But I, too, have wondered if Rhaegar might have been trying to finagle something with the Martells. Wouldn't that have been an interesting convo to overhear?

I do hope that the fact that Arianne and Areo are a POVs will provide us with more insights in what Dorne did and feel during the Rebellion, especially now that Aegon has entered the picture. Arianne could recall things her father did, or said, at whatever point in time, whereas Areo, provided that he returns to Doran's side (though we can only hope here) could give us information stated by Doran himself. 

I recall that Martin has said that by the end of the novels, we'll have all the information about the rebellion that we need (rendering a prequel unnecessary), but I do hope that this will include all the things that were happening in King's Landing.. Jaime could be one POV for this, Jon Connington as well (until we reach his exile), but Jaime cannot have seen everything, and the war continued for quite some time after Connington was exiled (assuming it occurred rather quickly after losing the battle). So are we going to learn those things? I sure hope so.

 

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--that thread: if I'm right, mistakes were found because they contradicted the books, yes? So, it's  harder to know if something's a mistake if it isn't in the books yet.

Sure. But if you suspect, for whatever reason, that there is a mistake, you can always either list it there, or contact someone more closely involved. :)

 

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2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

However, my main point is that I feel that the information from semi-canon sources, as long as nothing contradicts them, should not simply be dismissed on the ground that they are semi-canon.

I don't actually know what semi-canon means.  To me it means some things are canon and some are not just like the World Book.  GRRM says the App is a 'concordance'; a list of characters and historical events compiled from all of his books and some notes which included extensions of family trees in particular the Targaryens.  But yes, I agree; I'm not prepared to dismiss all ideas on the subject at this point.  Until I get the next book; I don't know the answer.  For all I know; it could turn out to be some crazy concoction of 'all of the above'.  LOL  Martin likes to confound his readers.

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