Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

It is not my intention to turn this into a discussion about the level of canonicity of our sources, but I will say this. The app is a semi-canon source. We've known that for quite some time (at least since 2014, though there might even be an older statement). The information that is in there that has not yet been published in a book before, might still change. It does not have to change, it might never change, but it is possible that it might, at some point, be changed into something else. The same is true for every So Spake Martin we have. Though I'm not sure whether you can see it as an in-world source, as character's secrets are discussed there which no maester could ever know.

However, my main point is that I feel that the information from semi-canon sources, as long as nothing contradicts them, should not simply be dismissed on the ground that they are semi-canon. We learned the name of Jaehaerys I's mother through the app before it was ever printed in a book.. That didn't make the value of the name any less. However, should the printed name have been another one, it would have been clear which one to go with from that point onwards.

 

As to the World Book, of course it is biased, on occasion. And of course Yandel is incorrect by accident at some points, and on purpose at others. He has to make some people look better than they were in reality, in an attempt to keep his head on his shoulders, after all  

 

We know from Yandel that

From Dorne, in defense of Princess Elia, ten thousand spears came over the Boneway and marched to King’s Landing to bolster the host that Rhaegar was raising.

That Rhaegar was already raising an army means that the dornishmen marched to King's Landing after Rhaegar returned, right?

 

I'm not sure if we can conclude the chronology of events from this passage. I interpret this more as "these are the things that Aerys did after the Battle of the Bells", after which Jaime lists four.

Additionally, this passage says nothing about whether the ten thousand dornishmen arrived at the Trident with the remainder of Rhaegar's army, before, or after.  

No worries.

I meant to expand my thoughts to show how the narrative of what happened is basically fanfic when you take a small tidbit like Rhaegar returned from "the south" and fill in details that are pure speculation unsupported by the ASOIAF text to support RLJ. If anything the fact that the ten thousand Dornishmen didn't have a commander until Aerys sent Ser Lewyn suggests that someone else brought them out of Dorne, quite possibly Rhaegar since he was in "the south". So perhaps Rhaegar went and got the ten thousand, but rode ahead to check on Aerys, told him to call Tywin, and then rode to the Trident without the ten thousand. Why would he do that? It's all speculation because the text doesn't really explain it. 

An alternate narrative could be argued that Rhaegar went south prior to the Rebellion, because he was involved in planning a coup, and was setting up some protection for his wife and family knowing that Aerys would retaliate. It has even been suggested that when he went south he took his heir and infant son Aegon with him. Varys helped him with a baby swap...the Pisswater Prince story that is in the text. So Rhaegar takes his son Aegon to Dorne for safe-keeping and that is when he makes the request for the ten thousand Dornish. 

Getting back to the World Book and App...just because some of the source material came from GRRM does not mean that what it contains is what happened. You have to take it into context the knowledge that it is said to have been written by maesters. So not specifically to be taken as written by GRRM, but the maesters within the story. So they are in-story creations, and as such are written "by the victors" so to speak, with historical details that fit their political agenda, and certainly King Robert would want the blame placed squarely on the Targaryens. 

Edited to add: To clarify...to me the definition of canon is the ASOIAF books. If the narrative cannot be supported by text from the canon, then it is suspect.

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

We know from Yandel that

From Dorne, in defense of Princess Elia, ten thousand spears came over the Boneway and marched to King’s Landing to bolster the host that Rhaegar was raising.

That Rhaegar was already raising an army means that the dornishmen marched to King's Landing after Rhaegar returned, right?

 

I don't get that at all. To me it makes sense to be the complete opposite. Think of how long of a journey it would be for an army to travel to Kings Landing from Dorne. May even be months. It was planned well in advance before Rhaegar returned. Why would Dorne send ten thousand Dornishmen before Rhaegar returned? Surely they heard of the Battle of the Bells and other battles, but from whom? It still takes months to call the banners and organize. Think of how long it took Robb to organize the North. It was months of preparation. Even Ned's journey from the Vale to calling his banners likely took months. We don't even know if he went all the way to Winterfell or if he called them from White Harbor, which in my opinion would make more sense to me as it would save time. Especially since he also had to find time to go to Riverrun and marry Catelyn before joining Robert. 

If it took months of preparation to gather ten thousand Dornishmen, then the excuse of "in defense of Elia" seems flimsy. Aerys didn't take Elia prisoner until he allowed his wife and heir to leave. By then the Dornish were already on the move. Doran wouldn't have sent the ten thousand without a leader, but apparently there wasn't one until Aerys sent Lewyn, so what happened? I think it's not a stretch to imagine that Rhaegar is the one that requested the forces and he likely led them, until he didn't...he rode off somewhere. Now whether or not he rode ahead or he went somewhere else and showed up later it's not clear, but his whereabouts are unaccounted for.

 

8 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Additionally, this passage says nothing about whether the ten thousand dornishmen arrived at the Trident with the remainder of Rhaegar's army, before, or after.  

Aerys sent Lewyn to take command of the ten thousand, and Lewyn died during the Battle of the Trident. He and the Dornishmen were to meet/join Rhaegar who was assembling remnant forces to bring them to the Trident also. They may or may not have arrived at the same time, but all were said to die at the Battle of the Trident, so I would assume that again, this all takes time and organization to bring these forces to the same place.

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL.  Well however high the tower might be; I'm pretty sure I'm not going to see what's coming. Although I do find the name Tower of Joy reminiscent of Joyous Guard later called Dolorous Guard, kind of amusing.  If we're talking about legendary Arthurs.

Again the question is not whether the rencounter took place at a tower, which Rhegar is said to have called the tower of joy [no initial capitals] but whether he and his gang had spent all their time hiding out there while the pillars of the earth were trembling.

The text is pretty clear that they were not.

In that celebrated dream conversation Lord Eddard [rather reproachfully] asks the guys in the white cloaks where they were when Aerys got his. To which the response is "far away" not "here" but far away; which quite unequivocally says two things [1] they were not here at the tower but [2] they are refusing to say where they really were and what they were really up to - its none of Lord Eddard's damn business.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

38 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Again the question is not whether the rencounter took place at a tower, which Rhegar is said to have called the tower of joy [no initial capitals] but whether he and his gang had spent all their time hiding out there while the pillars of the earth were trembling.

The text is pretty clear that they were not.

In that celebrated dream conversation Lord Eddard [rather reproachfully] asks the guys in the white cloaks where they were when Aerys got his. To which the response is "far away" not "here" but far away; which quite unequivocally says two things [1] they were not here at the tower but [2] they are refusing to say where they really were and what they were really up to - its none of Lord Eddard's damn business.

I don't think the text is pretty clear at all that the KG were somewhere other than at the tower of joy and the text is really not unequivocal on that point. Their answer of "far away" could reasonably be meant as "far away from King Aerys".

 

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Again the question is not whether the rencounter took place at a tower, which Rhegar is said to have called the tower of joy [no initial capitals] but whether he and his gang had spent all their time hiding out there while the pillars of the earth were trembling.

The text is pretty clear that they were not.

In that celebrated dream conversation Lord Eddard [rather reproachfully] asks the guys in the white cloaks where they were when Aerys got his. To which the response is "far away" not "here" but far away; which quite unequivocally says two things [1] they were not here at the tower but [2] they are refusing to say where they really were and what they were really up to - its none of Lord Eddard's damn business.

 

11 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't think the text is pretty clear at all that the KG were somewhere other than at the tower of joy and the text is really not unequivocal on that point. Their answer of "far away" could reasonably be meant as "far away from King Aerys".

 

BC, I think The Ned's Little Girl has it right. We just don't know how much time was spent at the tower. Other than knowing Rhaegar comes north when he takes up command of the loyalist forces and that Hightower was not with the original party, they all could spend a great amount of time at the tower of joy or a little. The problem is simply we have no clue they are anyplace else. Give me something beyond rank speculation any or all of them are someplace else and we have something to build theories upon. "Far away" doesn't qualify unless we can tell who or where they are far away from.

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

 

BC, I think The Ned's Little Girl has it right. We just don't know how much time was spent at the tower. Other than knowing Rhaegar comes north when he takes up command of the loyalist forces and that Hightower was not with the original party, they all could spend a great amount of time at the tower of joy or a little. The problem is simply we have no clue they are anyplace else. Give me something beyond rank speculation any or all of them are someplace else and we have something to build theories upon. "Far away" doesn't qualify unless we can tell who or where they are far away from.

Until GRRM reveals all everything is speculation, but given Rhaegar's politicking before the abduction, however it is interpreted, can we seriously believe that he took himself out of the world as effectively as if he was shut up in a Trappist monastery when all was going to pot around him, rather than deny the literal statement that the Kings Guard were "far away" rather than "here".

[ravenous reader]

24 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

"Far away" doesn't qualify unless we can tell who or where they are far away from.

It's clear if you read the passage logically that they were far away from King's Landing at the time Jaime killed King Aerys

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

After reaching King's Landing, Ned found Jaime and dead Aerys in the throne room and 'wondered where you [the kingsguard] were...' to have allowed such a thing to happen; to which Ser Gerold answers 'far away,' which obviously means far away from King's Landing, because had they been there at the time they would have taken on Jaime and protected the King.

No need to overcomplicate.

However, that doesn't prove they were at the Tower of Joy; just that they were curiously absent from King's Landing.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't get that at all. To me it makes sense to be the complete opposite. Think of how long of a journey it would be for an army to travel to Kings Landing from Dorne. May even be months. It was planned well in advance before Rhaegar returned. Why would Dorne send ten thousand Dornishmen before Rhaegar returned? Surely they heard of the Battle of the Bells and other battles, but from whom? It still takes months to call the banners and organize. Think of how long it took Robb to organize the North. It was months of preparation. Even Ned's journey from the Vale to calling his banners likely took months. We don't even know if he went all the way to Winterfell or if he called them from White Harbor, which in my opinion would make more sense to me as it would save time. Especially since he also had to find time to go to Riverrun and marry Catelyn before joining Robert. 

If it took months of preparation to gather ten thousand Dornishmen, then the excuse of "in defense of Elia" seems flimsy. Aerys didn't take Elia prisoner until he allowed his wife and heir to leave. By then the Dornish were already on the move. Doran wouldn't have sent the ten thousand without a leader, but apparently there wasn't one until Aerys sent Lewyn, so what happened? I think it's not a stretch to imagine that Rhaegar is the one that requested the forces and he likely led them, until he didn't...he rode off somewhere. Now whether or not he rode ahead or he went somewhere else and showed up later it's not clear, but his whereabouts are unaccounted for.

Robb actually managed to gather his the 12.000 at Winterfell rather quickly bolstered by those who joined on his route south, bringing his total to nearly 20.000 men. He calls his banners only after Robert's death, if I recall correctly, and marches well before Ned's. The calling of the banners during Robert's Rebellion is less clear, imo. Did the lords of the North do nothing until Eddard returned home? That his journey took a few months, seems likely. But that doesn't mean his lords could only have begun to gather their men only after he arrived (whether that was Winterfell or White Harbor, or some place else.). Their lord and his heir had just been murdered, after all, and the King had already been after their new lord.  (A bit off topic, but his marriage to Cat occurred after the Battle of the Bells, as Jon Arryn married Lysa in the same ceremony after losing  Denys, who died at Stoney Sept).

So I don't think it is necessary to assume that it took the Dornish multiple months to gather ten thousand men.. The Reach can gather ten thousand in a fortnight, though, of course, that region is far more densely populated, so it is likely that it would take the Dornish somewhat longer. So a month? Perhaps, perhaps not. How long does it take their army to march to KL? Can't really say that, either. It would have taken some time, sure, but how long exactly? We don't know. Nor do we know when exactly Rhaegar returned to KL, so we can't really say, based on that alone, which occurred first.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Until GRRM reveals all everything is speculation, but given Rhaegar's politicking before the abduction, however it is interpreted, can we seriously believe that he took himself out of the world as effectively as if he was shut up in a Trappist monastery when all was going to pot around him, rather than deny the literal statement that the Kings Guard were "far away" rather than "here".

We can debate what were Rhaegar's motives for doing what he did, but that's a very different question than the simple one what does the response "Far Away" mean? You and I both know we have to answer whether or not this is really a conversation that took place or one that just reflects Ned's own thoughts about why the Kingsguard trio were at the Tower rather than where he thought to find them. Are these really words Ser Gerold said in response to Ned's inquiry, or are these Ned's thoughts in his dreams of what he thought they would say? Is this, instead of the real account of a conversation between Ned and the three knights, Ned's continued troubles, some fifteen years later, with why these three men would not let him pass and why they fought to the death.

If we get past that fundamental question by deciding Hightower said the words, then the simple meaning of the phrase is what ravenous reader points to - they were "far away" from King's Landing when Jaime killed Aerys. It is a response to a specific question and has to be placed in that context. Surely the Tower of Joy qualifies as one of the many, many places that are far away from King's Landing. Far enough away that Ser Gerold could not intervene in Jaime's murder of his king is the key context.

It is not at all clear that "far away" is a response that means far away from the "here" of the Tower of Joy. Once again, let's look at options, but this time in reverse. If "far away" can mean the distance from King's Landing and the Tower then would it make sense for Ser Gerold  to mean he was in King's Landing and "far away" from the "here" of the tower in response to Ned's question? No, it would not, because then he could have theoretically stopped Aerys's death by being far away from the tower. Ser Gerold and his fellow members of the trio could have been almost anywhere outside the vicinity of King's Landing to make his statement true. Being a certain distance from the tower, however does not necessarily do so.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Robb actually managed to gather his the 12.000 at Winterfell rather quickly bolstered by those who joined on his route south, bringing his total to nearly 20.000 men. He calls his banners only after Robert's death, if I recall correctly, and marches well before Ned's. The calling of the banners during Robert's Rebellion is less clear, imo. Did the lords of the North do nothing until Eddard returned home? That his journey took a few months, seems likely. But that doesn't mean his lords could only have begun to gather their men only after he arrived (whether that was Winterfell or White Harbor, or some place else.). Their lord and his heir had just been murdered, after all, and the King had already been after their new lord.  (A bit off topic, but his marriage to Cat occurred after the Battle of the Bells, as Jon Arryn married Lysa in the same ceremony after losing  Denys, who died at Stoney Sept).

So I don't think it is necessary to assume that it took the Dornish multiple months to gather ten thousand men.. The Reach can gather ten thousand in a fortnight, though, of course, that region is far more densely populated, so it is likely that it would take the Dornish somewhat longer. So a month? Perhaps, perhaps not. How long does it take their army to march to KL? Can't really say that, either. It would have taken some time, sure, but how long exactly? We don't know. Nor do we know when exactly Rhaegar returned to KL, so we can't really say, based on that alone, which occurred first.

I quite agree that we just don't know when exactly Rhaegar returned or the order of the sequence. It's all speculation, however I would point out that the text speaks of a Pisswater Prince being swapped for baby Aegon. If that happened before Rhaegar left, then it seems logical that Rhaegar was the one to spirit the real Aegon away to safety, and it is the real reason why Rhaegar went south. If this is true then it is implied that Rhaegar had concerns many months before the Rebellion ever happened.

Varys whispered to King Aerys that the Tourney of Harrenhal was a ruse to gather support for Rhaegar to overthrow him. It is also suggested that Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully, Rickard Stark, Steffon Baratheon, and Jon Arryn were "talking"...perhaps even discussing the overthrow of Aerys with Rhaegar. I think the evidence is there based upon the marriage alliances that were being done between the great Houses of Lannister and Tully (Jaime and Lysa), Tully and Stark (Catelyn and Brandon), and Stark and Baratheon (Lyanna and Robert), that these Lord Paramounts were banding together. House Arryn had no child at that time to marry to anybody, so Jon Arryn got two wards: Ned and Robert. Ned was sent to Jon Arryn at what, the age of 9, or was it 11? So the alliances were being built quite awhile before the actual Rebellion. The point I am getting at is that the plans took years. The alliances were not lost on King Aerys, and while Cersei is credited with getting Jaime on the Kingsguard, I say Aerys was no fool. He thought he broke one alliance by preventing a marriage between Jaime and Lysa by making him his Kingsguard and basically his hostage, but I think Tywin was still entrenched deep in the plans...just more covert.

If my theory proves true, then Rhaegar was acting as if he had these Lords Paramount behind his cause, and the Pisswater Prince baby swap was part of his preparations. Get his heir safely away since his father was showing signs that he suspected what Rhaegar was doing.

It's my opinion that Rhaegar thought the Lords Paramount were on his side, but while he was gone presumably spiriting Aegon to the safety of Dorne (down south) and garnering support from Doran Martell with ten thousand Dornishmen, Tywin Lannister did what he does best: he tricked him. The kidnapping of Lyanna was a ruse to turn the Tullys, Starks, Baratheons, and Arryns against Rhaegar....so they had no idea that Tywin plotted to kill Lyanna and frame Rhaegar.

Tywin's motives were to kill all Targaryens and make his daughter, Cersei Robert's queen. With Lyanna out of the way it would make room for Cersei to take her place. Rhaegar was just a patsy. He had no idea she was gone. That would explain why he rode ahead of the ten thousand Dornishmen. Somehow word had gotten back to him that there were rebel forces. He was confused, because he thought he was supposed to be part of the rebel forces, and that it would be a bloodless removal of his father. The reports he was hearing didn't make sense. So he rushes ahead to Kings Landing, and of course he would encourage his father to turn to Tywin. Tywin was supposed to be on Rhaegar's side! Something horribly had gone wrong, so after he tells his father to summon Tywin, he also crosses paths with Jaime, assures him that when he comes back things will be different. Rhaegar then leaves for the Trident to meet the rebel forces. On his way there he would of course come across the remnants of armies that had already battled Robert and the rebels. If Rhaegar thought he was riding into trouble, he would have waited for the ten thousand Dornishmen and brought them with him, but he didn't do that. And as for dying with the name of the woman that he loved on his lips, I like to think of him uttering "Lyanna?" in complete puzzlement, like, what does she have to do with anything? 

[maudisdottir]

28 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

And as for dying with the name of the woman that he loved on his lips, I like to think of him uttering "Lyanna?" in complete puzzlement, like, what does she have to do with anything? 

Honestly?  Do you really think George would add that mystery to the story, one of the rare opportunities the reader gets to piece together a little more of Rhaegar's personality, by making his dying word a "WTF?"  The rest of your theory isn't as far-fetched as some of the contortions I've seen in these Heresy threads, i.e. it doesn't necessarily contradict what's in the text, but it's still a huge reach to say Tywin set the whole thing up.  That's a pretty elaborate and risky move which, why?  Why did he need to go to those lengths?

And it also makes all the R+L snippets we get totally redundant.  Again, why would George do that?  It's not like everybody got TKotLT or even R+L=J on the first read (I certainly didn't) so why put all these mysteries in there that aren't even relevant because Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue rose crown was what, a coincidence?  Or did Tywin make him do that too?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Tywin's motives were to kill all Targaryens and make his daughter, Cersei Robert's queen. With Lyanna out of the way it would make room for Cersei to take her place. Rhaegar was just a patsy. He had no idea she was gone. That would explain why he rode ahead of the ten thousand Dornishmen. Somehow word had gotten back to him that there were rebel forces. He was confused, because he thought he was supposed to be part of the rebel forces, and that it would be a bloodless removal of his father. The reports he was hearing didn't make sense. So he rushes ahead to Kings Landing, and of course he would encourage his father to turn to Tywin. Tywin was supposed to be on Rhaegar's side! Something horribly had gone wrong, so after he tells his father to summon Tywin, he also crosses paths with Jaime, assures him that when he comes back things will be different. Rhaegar then leaves for the Trident to meet the rebel forces. On his way there he would of course come across the remnants of armies that had already battled Robert and the rebels. If Rhaegar thought he was riding into trouble, he would have waited for the ten thousand Dornishmen and brought them with him, but he didn't do that. And as for dying with the name of the woman that he loved on his lips, I like to think of him uttering "Lyanna?" in complete puzzlement, like, what does she have to do with anything? 

Thanks Feather.  That's different and an interesting alternate narrative.  Just as plausable as anything else I've read.  I would add that Rhaegar isn't the only one played in that scenario.  Robert is a prickly beast and easily goaded.  That certainly fits Tywin's MO.

[Melifeather]

On 10/26/2016 at 6:31 PM, maudisdottir said:

Honestly?  Do you really think George would add that mystery to the story, one of the rare opportunities the reader gets to piece together a little more of Rhaegar's personality, by making his dying word a "WTF?"  The rest of your theory isn't as far-fetched as some of the contortions I've seen in these Heresy threads, i.e. it doesn't necessarily contradict what's in the text, but it's still a huge reach to say Tywin set the whole thing up.  That's a pretty elaborate and risky move which, why?  Why did he need to go to those lengths?

And it also makes all the R+L snippets we get totally redundant.  Again, why would George do that?  It's not like everybody got TKotLT or even R+L=J on the first read (I certainly didn't) so why put all these mysteries in there that aren't even relevant because Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue rose crown was what, a coincidence?  Or did Tywin make him do that too?

You made me laugh with the "WTF" moment, but basically, yes that is what I was saying. 

There are many theories with credible arguments for who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was, but nobody really knows for sure who he/she was. What we do know are a couple things, like the KofLT was defeating everyone he/she faced, yet was nowhere to be found the next day which was also the day Rhaegar ended up winning. And we know that Aerys sent Rhaegar to find the KoftLT, so Rhaegar likely heard how Lyanna stood up for Howland, and took notice that the knights the KoftLT defeated were the knights of the 3 squires involved with Lyanna and Howland. It could be that Rhaegar decided to give the laurel to Lyanna because, while he couldn't prove anything, he felt Lyanna was involved in some way, so in effect giving her the laurel was sharing his win...an acknowledgement...a tip of the hat, so to speak.

 

On 10/26/2016 at 7:09 PM, LynnS said:

Thanks Feather.  That's different and an interesting alternate narrative.  Just as plausable as anything else I've read.  I would add that Rhaegar isn't the only one played in that scenario.  Robert is a prickly beast and easily goaded.  That certainly fits Tywin's MO.

You are too kind. Thank you LynnS!

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Honestly?  Do you really think George would add that mystery to the story, one of the rare opportunities the reader gets to piece together a little more of Rhaegar's personality, by making his dying word a "WTF?"  The rest of your theory isn't as far-fetched as some of the contortions I've seen in these Heresy threads, i.e. it doesn't necessarily contradict what's in the text, but it's still a huge reach to say Tywin set the whole thing up.  That's a pretty elaborate and risky move which, why?  Why did he need to go to those lengths?

And it also makes all the R+L snippets we get totally redundant.  Again, why would George do that?  It's not like everybody got TKotLT or even R+L=J on the first read (I certainly didn't) so why put all these mysteries in there that aren't even relevant because Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue rose crown was what, a coincidence?  Or did Tywin make him do that too?

A couple of things did the crowning indeed show Rhaegar's personality? Can you say for certain Rhaegar was doing Lyanna a solid with that gesture? Was that the only possible interpretation? It doesn't matter what side of the isle your sitting his gesture was seen as very negative.

While i believe TKOTLT was Lyanna,that is up in the air.There are real contenders other than her.The thing here is you are speaking or writing as if RLJ is a fact.GRRM is masterful at misdirection and what the audience expects to see. Its the Sealord's Cat.

I for one don't think Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was a coincidence......Romantic no.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Until GRRM reveals all everything is speculation, but given Rhaegar's politicking before the abduction, however it is interpreted, can we seriously believe that he took himself out of the world as effectively as if he was shut up in a Trappist monastery when all was going to pot around him, rather than deny the literal statement that the Kings Guard were "far away" rather than "here".

BC do you recall a statement a few years ago that Jon's parents could be determined from the text in Game of Thrones?  Or something to that effect.  I think it was mentioned in one of the Heresy threads.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

BC do you recall a statement a few years ago that Jon's parents could be determined from the text in Game of Thrones?  Or something to that effect.  I think it was mentioned in one of the Heresy threads.

I have a recollection of an SSM in which GRRM said something to the effect that the necessary clues were there, which would make sense as it was intended to be the first book of a trilogy. That's not to say that subsequent books haven't been seeded with clues in the bygoing, but the important ones are in that first book

[maudisdottir]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

A couple of things did the crowning indeed show Rhaegar's personality? Can you say for certain Rhaegar was doing Lyanna a solid with that gesture? Was that the only possible interpretation? It doesn't matter what side of the isle your sitting his gesture was seen as very negative.

While i believe TKOTLT was Lyanna,that is up in the air.There are real contenders other than her.The thing here is you are speaking or writing as if RLJ is a fact.GRRM is masterful at misdirection and what the audience expects to see. Its the Sealord's Cat.

I for one don't think Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was a coincidence......Romantic no.

I'm not sure what that has to do with my post.  I was responding to the notion that Rhaegar's last word was a question, ie "Lyanna?".

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have a recollection of an SSM in which GRRM said something to the effect that the necessary clues were there, which would make sense as it was intended to be the first book of a trilogy. That's not to say that subsequent books haven't been seeded with clues in the bygoing, but the important ones are in that first book

Cheers!  There is also this quote from Alfie Allen:

What did you ask him about in return?
You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html?imw=Y

The famous scene:

And this quote from Jon to Benjen:

A Game of Thrones - Jon I
"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."
Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"
Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

****

I'd be floored if Martin revealed Jon's dad in his first POV.  I'm not talking about Benjen here but Schmobert.  A friend points out that Darth Vader is someone whom Luke actually meets.

Jon's quote is from the banquet scene where Robert takes Ned's place in the procession escorting Catelyn to the dais.  Jon and Robert never actually speak to each other but they certainly see each other.  We get Jon's  reaction to Robert.  He's disappointed that Robert doesn't live up to the stories he's been told by Ned.

And we have Jon who looks like Arya (according to Arya) who looks like Lyanna.  Robert trolling Ned for information about Ned's bastard on the road to King's Landing.  If Jon does indeed resemble his mother; Robert would likely notice it and question Ned about it.   

This in turn goes back to Lyanna's statement to Ned 'that love is sweet, but can't change a man's nature' and Ned's belief that marriage will change a man.  How does Lyanna know this about Robert; unless she had shared his bed and in spite of that Robert sleeps around like a Tony Soprano type character.  GRRM points out in one of his interviews regarding 'flawed characters' that Tony loves his wife and children and still screws around with any random woman who comes along.  Tony will feed he ducks in his pool one day and beat the crap out of someone the next.  He's not a likeable character and neither is Robert who can also fly into a murderous rage.

Evidenced when he learns that Dany is pregnant and he call her a whore demanding that an innocent girl and her unborn child be killed. Is this about Dany or is this old stuff dredged up from the past.  Was this Robert's reaction when he heard the rumor that Lyanna ran off with Rheager.  Was she a whore?

If Lyanna got wind of something like this; she is likely to flee.  The question becomes:  Where do whores go? And who benefits:  Tywin Lannister.   The Lancaster factor in the War of the Roses.

ETA:  Where does Lyanna go?  Far south from here to Starfall and Ashara Dayne who loves her brother; to the protection of a true knight, Arthur Dayne taking a new identity, Wylla.     

[maudisdottir]

^So who is the Wylla at Starfall for the last decade plus?  Is Ned hallucinating when he mourns his dead sister?

Again, if Robert's the father - why the secrecy?  And the clues for that unlikely solution certainly weren't laid out in the first book.  Because there aren't any.  Lyanna and Robert did not sleep together in the books.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

^So who is the Wylla at Starfall for the last decade plus?  Is Ned hallucinating when he mourns his dead sister?

Again, if Robert's the father - why the secrecy?  And the clues for that unlikely solution certainly weren't laid out in the first book.  Because there aren't any.  Lyanna and Robert did not sleep together in the books.

Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't sleep together either.  There are no clues to that in the book ANYWHERE.  Look, you can  believe whatever the hell you want.  My viewpoint on the matter isn't a personal attack on you or what you think.  I've given the reason for the secrecy.  Stop being so goddamn snarky.