Speculation about the Targaryens on Dragonstone

[Lord Varys]

Considering that it is a long way to 'Fire and Blood' yet and not very likely that the Targaryens on Dragonstone are going to covered in detail I was wondering whether anybody might be interested in speculating how many Targaryens came with Aenar to Dragonstone, and how many legitimate and illegitimate branches of the family those people produced.

The first part of that would be to turn to Aenar Targaryen and his immediate and extended family as well as his more distant relations.

George tells us in TWoIaF that Aenar Targaryen 'moved with all his wives, wealth, slaves, dragons, siblings, kin, and children to Dragonstone'.

That sets the stage insofar as we now know Aenar the Exile had multiples wives at the same time, sons and daughters (at least Daenys and Gaemon), brothers and sisters (at least one brother and one sister - else George would not have mentioned siblings), and more distant kin.

The first take would be to speculate about the number of wives Aenar had and what background they might have had. The other is to speculate how many siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and other relations Aenar might have brought with him to Dragonstone.

Does anybody want to speculate about stuff like that?

[The Grey Wolf]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

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I'm game.

Considering that Valyrians wed the eldest sister to the eldest brother and that Aegon I was considered unusual but not unprecedented for marrying both his sisters I'd venture that Aenar either married more than one sister, his other wives were from other dragon-riding families of Valyria of low rank, or connected to some other outside faction such as the sorcerer princes since I can't imagine the proud lords freeholder of Valyria settling for anything less.

Also, I'd venture to guess Aenar himself was a sorcerer since it isn't it stated somewhere that the sorcerer-princes were more known to take multiple wives?

Another possibility is that there were two sisters and Aenar and his brother each married one.

Considering how large this brood must have been something must have happened to reduce the Targaryens down to just Aegon and his two sisters. Maybe the Targaryens getting involved in the Century of Blood? Its noted frustratingly vaguely in TWOIAF that before Aegon I the Targaryens looked east rather than west. Maybe some allied with one of the Free Cities and died in the fighting (which would be a cool way of explaining who would be stupid enough to brave the Titan) or some allied with one Free City and others allied with other another Free City and died fighting each other. After all we know Aenar brought four dragons apart from Balerion, who was young at the time, and that they all died but not when or even if their deaths were the natural result of old age as in Balerion's case.

[The Grey Wolf]

Also, we know that Valaena Velaryon, the wife of Aerion, was half-Targaryen herself, which means that Aerys had a second daughter apart from Daemion's wife, that Maegon had a daughter who was passed over and has gone unmentioned, or that Aelyx or Baelon had a daughter that was passed over and has gone unmentioned.

On that note isn't interesting that some of the pre-conquest Targaryens have names that were never used by the royals? So far as we know the names Daemion, Aelyx, Daenys, Valaena, and even Aenar were never used again...

[theblackdragonI]

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[The Grey Wolf]

A few more points I'd like to make:

Its interesting to note that after Aenar the next two Lords of Dragonstone apparently had no siblings apart from the sister-wives they ruled with, which I think implies that the Targaryens, and by extension, the Valyrians were a lot more open to women wielding open power, which we can see in that Visenya and Rhaenys were more co-monarchs with Aegon I than mere consorts the way say Mariah Martell or Rhaelle Targaryen were

Maegon was lord before Aerys but is not mentioned as having a wife or children which is strange

Gaemon, son of Aenar, is described as "the glorious". Unless he gave himself that title due to a huge inferiority complex I wonder what he did to earn that sobriquet. Did he take part in the Century of Blood or did he do something like turn Dragonstone from a gloomy and forboding abode into a glittering court with the wealth they got from basically being House Frey in the Narrow Sea?

[The Grey Wolf]

On the role of Aenar's extended family in the household I wouldn't be surprised if some served as captains of the guard of a sorts for their older brother. Some may also have traveled or studied at his expense, possibly in magical matters. No doubt some of them assisted in managing the land House Targaryen owned as freeholders, possibly in a position similar to a steward. Beyond that some may have served in a similar capacity to elected Roman Senators. And of course some may have been married to other families to foster alliances against their rivals and enemies.

This is of course assuming the family got along. For all we know most of the family might have been pissed to leave Valyria for Dragonstone but were stuck in a situation like the Blacks and the Greens vis-a-vis Viserys I in that Aenar was the undisputed head of the house and would not tolerate any dissent if he saw it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 27-10-2016 at 6:52 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, we know that Valaena Velaryon, the wife of Aerion, was half-Targaryen herself, which means that Aerys had a second daughter apart from Daemion's wife, that Maegon had a daughter who was passed over and has gone unmentioned, or that Aelyx or Baelon had a daughter that was passed over and has gone unmentioned.

We don't know who Daemion's wife was, so she might not have been Aerys's daughter. Nor does Valaena necessarily have to descent from Daemion's brothers, or Maegon. Valaena was a Velaryon by birth, so her mother is likely to have been of the same generation as Daemion, Aelyx and Baelon, I think (unless there was a huge age-difference between Valaena and Aerion). Which means that Valaena being a granddaughter of Maegon has slightly better odds, but if that is the case, then why did Aerys's son not marry Maegon's daughter?

If Aenar had multiple cousins whom he brought with him to Dragonstone, I think it is possible that a male line from that "branch" of the family tree survived long enough to intermarry with House Velaryon, which led to the birth of Valaena. Their line must have ended at some point, though (the male line, at least) as there do not appear to be any Targaryen cousins around during the later parts of the Targaryen Dynasty - though there must have been at least still one male cousin bearing the Targaryen name near the time of the Conquest, as Alyssa Velaryon also had a Targaryen mother, and no further siblings have been mentioned or listed for Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya.

[Lord Varys]

First, we have to keep in mind that Gyldayn gives us only a cursory account on the Lords of Dragonstone. It is a bonus that we have Gaemon and Daenys and Aegon and Elaena mentioned as (apparent) co-rulers. Maegon/Aerys and Aelyx/Baelon/Daemion might have been co-rulers, too, rather than successive rulers (say, Maegon-Aerys were twins or Aerys' three sons were getting along really well).

However, the lack of any Targaryen wives for Maegon, Aerys, Aelyx, Baelon, and Daemion doesn't mean they had no sister-wives or cousin-wives. They could have had but Gyldayn just didn't mention because they didn't play as important roles as Daenys or Elaena, or perhaps because those Lords of Dragonstone were all insignificant and short-lived, anyway.

Beginning with Aenar, the first step would be to think about the number and origins of his wives. I'll try to do something like that beginning with stuff that we can make educated guesses down to real speculations. This whole thing goes back to me looking at the family tree of the Ptolemies and wondering whether one could use that as a template for the family tree of the Lords of Dragonstone. It doesn't really work, of course, at least not at the outset because Aenar Targaryen would have practiced incest already which Ptolemy I never did. But it is a nice idea.

(1) The mother of Daenys and Gaemon is likely to have been either a full sister Aenar Targaryen or at least a closely related Targaryen relative (i.e. an aunt or a female cousin). One assumes that in a polygamous setting the Targaryen children who would inherit the estate were the ones born from an incestuous union following dragonlord tradition rather than from some sort of secondary non-incest (or even non-Valyrian) wife (unless, of course, the dragonlord in question only had non-Valyrian or non-incest wives).

In Aenar's case we know he had at least one sister so it is safe to say he was married to her (although not completely confirmed).

(2) Aenar's other wives are a complete mystery. There might have been other Targaryens among them but we have no way of knowing that. The only other hint we have points to Lys because TWoIaF claims that the Targaryens had multiple Lysene brides. Since we only know of Larra Rogare one of the Lords of Dragonstone must have had at least one Lysene wife. Could have been that one of the later guys took one of those but Aenar might be good guess, too, considering that the journey from Valyria to Dragonstone most likely included a stop at Lys where Aenar might have fallen in love with a woman he then married.

(3) The age of Daenys and Gaemon is difficult to tackle but we know that Daenys was still Aenar's 'maiden daughter' when she had her dreams about the Doom so it is likely to assume that she was in her mid-teens at that point. Gaemon might have been her younger brother if we go with the Valyrian custom of the son marrying his elder sister. That could also allow us to make a guess as to Aenar's own age at the time of the exile, making him a middle-aged man rather than a younger or older man.

(4) The reigns of the various Lords of Dragonstone are difficult to tackle. I assume Aenar did not only rule Dragonstone for the twelve years between the exile and the Doom but also for a considerable time thereafter (say, perhaps ~25 years in total).

Gaemon's epithet 'the Glorious' also suggest a successful longer reign, possibly another 20-30 years, with Aegon and Elaena also ruling for at least one decade or even more. Maegon and Aerys (and perhaps even Aerys' sons) might have had rather short reigns because they were older men when they took over. The (male) children of Maegon, Aelyx, and Baelon could easily enough have predeceased their fathers in such scenarios).

If we go into speculating about names of Targaryens in that era one can do that by keeping tracks of the names the Targaryens used in Westeros:

1. Aegon is a traditional Targaryen name but only becomes really popular with the Conqueror. It is thus not very likely that there were many Targaryens named 'Aegon' on Dragonstone or back in Valyria.

2. The name Daeron pops up more or less suddenly both among the Velaryons (Daenaera's father) as well as the Hightower-Targaryens (Prince Daeron the Daring) suggesting that this might have been a traditional Targaryen name.

3. The name Maegor is not attested prior to Visenya's son. Considering that she did not choose to name her son after his father one assumes that there was at least one important/powerful Targaryen with the name Maegor in the past.

4. Rhaenyra is a name only used for Viserys I's eldest daughter. Considering the special place that child had in the heart of the king and queen it would be very odd to assume that it was a new or insignificant name. Thus I assume that it was a traditional Targaryen female name. One could easily imagining that Aenar's sister-wife was another Rhaenyra.

5. The names Elaena and Vaella are reused after centuries considering that there might have been more  historical Targaryen women carrying those names. Especially in Vaella's case this is likely because it doesn't seem likely Prince Daeron intended to name his only child after Aenys I's youngest daughter who died in the cradle.

My speculative take on the family of Aenar the Exile:

1. Aenar's first wife would have been an aunt, some years older than he was. From her he had a daughter he would marry eventually later in life (a true incestuous love story) with a daughter from that union marrying somebody else down the family tree. The aunt-wife could have died in childbirth before the Targaryens left Valyria and Aenar might have inherited what dragon he himself rode from her.

2. The mother of Daenys and Gaemon would have been a full sister, a woman I imagine as a another Rhaenyra. She would have been alive during the exile.

3. The speculative daughter-wife. Aenar would have married her only after the Doom, perhaps as a weirdo symbol to celebrate a new beginning.

The non-Valyrian wives are really tricky. I doubt that Aenar had the standing to take a secondary wife from another Valyrian dragonlord family back in Valyria but he could have taken

- Valyrian 'middle-class' woman (say, a noblewoman who wasn't directly related to the dragonlord families). Aenar and her could have been the ultimate ancestors of the mother of Orys Baratheon.

- the Lysene wife I speculated above. Could have been a Saan for all we know.

Considering the prestige of a dragonlord other wives could involve marriages from all over the place

- a freed slave-woman married for love

- a Summer Islander princess

- a Qartheen noblewoman

- a Sothoryi woman from Gogossos

The potential there is pretty much endless.

I'd find the idea interesting that Aenar had multiple Targaryen cadet branches founded by such secondary women who later either died out or left the island, sinking into obscurity.

Aenar's extended family is completely speculative. I'd like to have

- a granduncle with the epithet 'the Demented'.

- an uncle nicknamed 'the Fool' because he returned to the Lands of the Long Summer shortly before the Doom and dying there.

- his mother, the sister-wife of Aenar's late Targaryen father (no idea whether the text allows the assumption that Aenar's widowed mother went with them to Dragonstone - but it would be plausible if she was still alive at that point).

- a younger brother married to a cousin (either a daughter of the Demented or a daughter of the Fool).

- a much younger sister - born shortly before the Targaryens left Valyria - who married into House Velaryon, cementing the Targaryen alliance with the Lords of Driftmark (who had moved to the Narrow Sea before the Targaryens).

- multiple male and female cousins married to each other from distant relations, including some female line relations carrying other Valyrian names (one such cousin would have been married to Lord Darklyn in the years to come, to establish good trade relations with Duskendale).

The five dragonriders Aenar had would be he himself, his sister-wife (Rhaenyra), his younger brother, Daenys (who is the first rider of Balerion in my mind), and eventually Gaemon (he could inherit a dragon from the demented granduncle or his grandmother).

Four of those dragons would eventually die and Meraxes and Vhagar be born in the meantime. However, there would be a certain leeway to speculate about the existence of short-lived dragons who died or disappeared with their riders before the Conquest took place. Vhagar and Meraxes would definitely have had multiple riders before they were claimed by Visenya and Rhaenys, as would Balerion.

And just as the Targaryen kings not always rode the largest dragons (Aenys I, Jaehaerys I, Aegon II and Rhaenyra) the Lords of Dragonstone are not likely to have always had the largest dragons.

That's it for now.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Regarding the name Vaella, I think it might have been a name with its origins in Velaryon history, not Targaryen history. (Both Houses are, in the end, of Valyrian origin, of course, as are most of the names of their family members, presumably).

Aenys I and his wife Alyssa had six children in total. The eldest three, Rhaena, Aegon, and Viserys, appear to have been named for Aenys's mother (Rhaenys), father (Aegon I), and aunt (Visenya). Perhaps then the younger three were named as per Velaryon fashion (Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Vaella). Especially Alysanne seems likely, considering her mother's name. And the name Jaehaerys seems rather similar to Jacaerys, which has been described as a "traditional Velaryon name". So Vaella might, in that case, have been named per Velaryon tradition as well, and not a Targaryen tradition. (Vaemond and Valaena being the only known Velaryon names that come even close to Vaella, and although I don't think the name is derived from any of those two, they might all three share some common origin).

To be sure, this might not be the case. Alyssa's father was called Aethon, and none of her children appear to be named for him.

And most importantly, while certainly on multiple occasions Targaryen children are specifically named for an ancestor, of course it doesn't always have to be the case that a child is named for someone else.

[The Grey Wolf]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

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I applaud your effort Lord Varys. I do have one nitpick and that is from the information we have I don't think it is likely that the Valyrians practiced parent-child incest, especially since Gyldayn doesn't mention it when reciting Valyrian marriage customs. Love your idea for there being an uncle who was called a fool for returning to Valyria shortly before the Doom though. Wonder what the other dragon-riding families would think of that. Also, on the dragons. Couldn't some have been killed participating in the Century of Blood or in conflicts with the family? With such a large brood I can't imagine they all got along or were happy being stuck on small, gloomy Dragonstone. Also, the Targaryens were known for looking east before Aegon I but I'll admit I mainly want this to be true because I find the idea of a dragon-riding Targaryen taking on the Titan far more awesome (and stupid) than Volantis (which would be the most likely though the distance and logistics of that do present a problem I'll admit). 

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

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I find it interesting that quite a few of the Velaryon names start with a V: Vaemond, Vaella, Valaena. If Lucerys is also a Velaryon name like Jaecerys then maybe the suffix "cerys" is also Velaryon. On that note it is interesting that there are no Targaryen names that start with a T.

[Lord Varys]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

I'd agree that Alysanne was likely named after her mother, Queen Alyssa, and that Jaehaerys I could have been named after some Velaryon ancestor. Vaella could fall in a similar category but there is less evidence for that in her case. Jaehaerys I's son Vaegon could also have been named after a Targaryen ancestor. His sons Aegon, Baelon, and Gaemon were named after historical Targaryens as were his daughters Alyssa and Viserra (and possibly the children Aemon and Daella as well).

George suggests that royal and noble children usually were named after prestigious ancestors or famous persons. Bloodraven tells us that Brynden became a popular name thanks to his own prominence, and we learn from Gyldayn that Prince Daemon named his twin daughters after his own father and Laena's mother. AGoT also establishes that Robert Arryn was named after Robert Baratheon and implies that Robb Stark was also named after Robert (just as Barra was in a different sense and Jon Snow most likely was named after Jon Arryn). We even know that Joffrey and Tommen are traditional Lannister royal names suggesting that Cersei's children were named after them.

With that in mind - as well as with the knowledge that names can be changed a little like Robert-Robb or Rhaenys-Rhaena, Baelon-Baela it is pretty easy to deduce after whom the various Targaryens were named.

Aerys II (who himself was obviously named after his great-granduncle, King Aerys I) named three sons after his own father, his uncle, and his grandfather (and a daughter after his own mother) before finally choosing the rather obscure Targaryen name Viserys, possibly to honor either Viserys I or Viserys II.

Aegon V clearly named his sons after his best friend, the greatest king of the dynasty, and his elder brother/grandfather.

The idea that the royals and nobles just choose a name from a list of common/traditional names without making a connection to the people bearing those names isn't very likely.

Thus I'd say there is a pretty good chance that most of the names we meet repeatedly might also have been traditional names. Although not necessarily all of them. I assume Aemond is a variation of Aemon, Rhaegel a variation of Rhaegar (or vice versa), and so forth.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I applaud your effort Lord Varys. I do have one nitpick and that is from the information we have I don't think it is likely that the Valyrians practiced parent-child incest, especially since Gyldayn doesn't mention it when reciting Valyrian marriage customs.

Sure, that would have been an exception. But an exception that is bound to have happened occasionally in a society in which incest was the predominant marriage custom. Brother-sister incest was common in Ancient Egypt (and Persia) with parent-child incest being a noteworthy exception.

The Targaryens usually married children to each other that were close in age. Thus uncles/aunts were likely to marry their nieces and nephews only if they were close in age to each other. A father marrying his own daughter would likely only happen if there was love involved and/or no other close relation was available. In that sense the idea I have for this Aenar-daughter match is similar to Aegon marrying Rhaenys instead of only Visenya - that was a love match, too.

And father-daughter incest is not completely unheard of. Aegon IV at least had sex with the daughter of his first mistress who very well may have been his own child.

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Love your idea for there being an uncle who was called a fool for returning to Valyria shortly before the Doom though. Wonder what the other dragon-riding families would think of that.

My idea would be that the uncle who went back to Valyria would have been a dragonless Targaryen at the time of his return. A sort of quarrelsome uncle who didn't get along all that well with Aenar and who was perhaps pissed that no dragon wanted to bond with him or something of that sort. If his wife died in childbirth around that time he could have decided to rebuild the power of the family back in the Lands of the Long Summer - but clearly not as a dragonlord but as some guy who would have tried to start a new in a less prestigious position.

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Also, on the dragons. Couldn't some have been killed participating in the Century of Blood or in conflicts with the family? With such a large brood I can't imagine they all got along or were happy being stuck on small, gloomy Dragonstone.

I imagine that they were involved in those wars at one point. However, I just dealt with Aenar's family right now. If we assume he had as many wives as I suggested above (or at least some of them) he could have had a virtual army of sons some of which were likely to be involved in some of the early wars of the Century of Blood.

I don't think Gaemon involved himself in much of that, though, considering that it is said that the Targaryens enriched themselves greatly by controlling the trade in the Narrow Sea. I think Gaemon was 'the Glorious' because he grew really wealthy and powerful over all that and that could only work well if Dragonstone remained aloof of the squabbles - at least in those days - and was powerful enough to guarantee free and safe trade in the regions the dragons controlled.

A war with Braavos and Pentos is imaginable in the later years, though. I'm pretty sure the Sealord did not like it very much that a dragonlord family was basically living in his backyard.

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Also, the Targaryens were known for looking east before Aegon I but I'll admit I mainly want this to be true because I find the idea of a dragon-riding Targaryen taking on the Titan far more awesome (and stupid) than Volantis (which would be the most likely though the distance and logistics of that do present a problem I'll admit).

Some sort of pact/cooperation between Volantis and Dragonstone is imaginable for the earlier period of Volantene expansion. One could even speculate whether there were some marriages between the Old Blood and the Targaryen family. Some triarch could easily enough have married a Targaryen daughter while a later Lord of Dragonstone might have married a Volentene noblewoman.

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I find it interesting that quite a few of the Velaryon names start with a V: Vaemond, Vaella, Valaena. If Lucerys is also a Velaryon name like Jaecerys then maybe the suffix "cerys" is also Velaryon. On that note it is interesting that there are no Targaryen names that start with a T.

Lucerys seems to be a Velaryon name considering that there is Rhaenyra's second son and later Lord Lucerys Velaryon, the Master of Ships under Aerys II.

But I'm not so inclined to believe that there is a strong difference or a system differentiating Velaryon and Targaryen names. There are two Velaryons bearing the name Daemon (the Master of Ships during the Conquest and the Master of Ships in the days of Maegor the Cruel, possibly Alyssa Velaryon's brother) before we meet the first Daemon Targaryen in Prince Daemon.

Thinking about that I'm also inclined to consider the possibility that Laenor and Laena were traditional Targaryen names considering that Rhaenys and Corlys wanted their children to succeed to the Iron Throne. Giving them obscure names with no historical weight is not very likely.

To put some names on the people lets go with that:

1. Aenar's widowed mother is Daeryssa Targaryen, explaining the historical origin of the name of the princess from the song.

2. Aenar's aunt-wife is the first known Daenerys Targaryen, with Daenys the Dreamer named after her. Gave him only one daughter, Aerea, and died in childbirth back in Valyria.

3. Aenar's daughter-wife, Aerea Targaryen, gave him three daughters (Rhaella, Daenaera, Alyssa) and a son, Baelon.

4. Aenar's sister-wife is a Rhaenyra Targaryen, the mother of Daenys the Dreamer, Gaemon the Glorious, and two sons (Maegon and Maegor, who were married to the elder daughters of Aerea by Aenar).

The other wives:

1. Aenar's love wife, a black-haired slave woman of unknown origin only known as Bara Thea, 'the Fierce Goddess'. She gave Aenar seven children five of which left Dragonstone to make a living as sellswords in the Stormlands and Essos (one of the girls rose to prominence at Storm's End).

2. Talisa Maegyr (couldn't resist), a middle-class noblewoman from the Valyrian branch of the family (only the Volentene branch would survive the Doom). Five monstrosities; only a pair of twins lived, the notorious dragon-dwarf Taeryon the Terrible and his lackwit brother Daeryon the Deaf (named so because he could very effectively ignore the screams of his victims).

3. Salladra Saan, the Lysene wife; her three dragonless sons left Dragonstone upon Gaemon's ascension only to die in the Century of Blood when the Tigers first attacked Lys. The daughter settled on Lys and married into the main branch of House Saan.

4. Chataya Qo; non-identical twins who married each other and founded a branch of dark-skinned Targaryens with Valyrian hair and eyes who commanded the Targaryen fleets until the days of Lord Daemion (possible that some of descendants of that line became pirates on the Stepstones at one point).

5. Pya Pree, a woman from Qarth who could give Aenar a sickly child late in his life, a white-skinned and white-haired boy named Aenar, after his father. Pya murdered Lord Aenar and tried to make her son his successor. Young Meraxes (the dragon the boy Aenar tried to mount) devoured him on sight. Pya herself was fed to Balerion by Daenys the Dreamer.

Aenar's siblings:

1. The sister-wife Rhaenyra.

2. His younger sister Vaella, married to Lord Jacaerys Velaryon.

3. His younger brother Maegor the Magnificent, rider of the largest living dragon at that point, and a great warrior and explorer. Married to his first cousin, Laena Targaryen. Explored Westeros atop his dragon and disappeared without a trace in the Sunset Sea. Father of three sons and a daughter; only one grandchild.

4. His youngest brother Aegon, a madman. No issue.

The extended family:

1. Aenar's granduncle, Daeron the Demented, lived two decades in aberration on Dragonstone. His dragon also showed signs of madness during his last years, and went wild after his rider's death. The dragon killed Daeron's natural son, Faegon, and the two elder sons of Maegor the Magnificent in his rage (eventually the beast was killed by Balerion).

2. Aenar's uncle, Jaehaerys the Fool, (married to his twin-sister Jaehaera) returned to Valyria before two years before the Doom. His eldest daughter Laena married Aenar's brother Maegor. The twins Visenya and Rhaenys.

3. Aenar's aunt-wife Daeryssa, mother of Aerea.

4. Aenar's first cousins Rhaenys and Visenya, and their trueborn son, Aegon (allegedly fathered by Gaemon the Glorious).

5. Aenar's second cousins Vaegon, Rhaegar, Rhaegel, Aelys, Aenor, and Aelor. Served Aenar as champions, advisers, officials, and admirals. The female second cousins Maegelle, Daella, Shaera, Rhalla.

Now things are getting out of control. This kind of stuff is very difficult to juggle. Lets wait and see whether we can cut them down again.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@Lord Varys

I think that Alyssa Targaryen was named directly for her grandmother, Alyssa Velaryon, and thus was given an traditional Velaryon name, not a traditional Targaryen name. With their Velaryon mother still alive for some time during Jaehaerys's reign, Jaehaerys and Alyssa could easily have given some of their children a Velaryon name instead of a Targaryen name.. 

[lojzelote]

Personally, I think that sometimes parents simply name their child something they like.

Take Rhaegar, for example. The firstborn son of Aerys and Rhaella, the future prince of Dragonstone, a first candite for the Prince that Was Promised... and they give him a name previously unused. I can think of only one other that comes close, and that was Rhaegel, whose bearer had been an alleged simpleton who had died long before Aerys or even Jaehaerys were born.

But their second son gets the most iconic names of all, Aegon, and then we have Daeron, Jaehaerys, Viserys. All of them had famous, successful namesakes.

There are possible in-world explanations, like that they wanted to give him a name with a clean slate, or perhaps "Rhaegar" has some meaning in Valyrian we're not aware of, or maybe he was named after a legendary Valyrian hero... But the true explanation probably is that GRRM wanted Rhaegar to stand out, just like Rhaenyra.

Anyway, I don't think that it makes much sense that neither Aenar or Daenys have appeared for centuries, since these two had saved the family with their decision to leave the Freehold. Especially since many of their descendants were interested in magic and prophecies, I'd assume they would have liked to honor them.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

@Lord Varys

I think that Alyssa Targaryen was named directly for her grandmother, Alyssa Velaryon, and thus was given an traditional Velaryon name, not a traditional Targaryen name. With their Velaryon mother still alive for some time during Jaehaerys's reign, Jaehaerys and Alyssa could easily have given some of their children a Velaryon name instead of a Targaryen name.. 

That certainly is very likely there. The thing is just that you easily enough can name some guy 'Baelor' and still intending to name him after 'Baelon' or name a daughter 'Rhaena' when you are actually honoring a Rhaenys (which was done at least twice).

I'm not sure Alyssa is a traditional Valyrian name. There is a Alyssa Arryn to consider so Alyssa Velaryon could actually have been given a Andal-sounding name, or at least a variant of a name which connected more with Westeros than Valyria. Perhaps Alysanne is the more Valyrian version of the name? We have no idea.

However, I'm with you that many of the names of the children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have been traditional Velaryon names (the name 'Valerion' certainly suggests something like that).

We know that Jacaerys and Lucerys are traditional Velaryon names, and we also know that the names Daemon and Corlys were popular with them for a time (there are two Daemon Velaryons and the Sea Snake is named for the Corlys Velaryon who was the first Lord Commander of the Kingsguard). We have also to keep in mind that some famous guy could make a new name popular (e.g. Aemon became really popular as an name among the Targaryens and Blackfyres because of the Dragonknight).

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

Personally, I think that sometimes parents simply name their child something they like.

Take Rhaegar, for example. The firstborn son of Aerys and Rhaella, the future prince of Dragonstone, a first candite for the Prince that Was Promised... and they give him a name previously unused. I can think of only one other that comes close, and that was Rhaegel, whose bearer had been an alleged simpleton who had died long before Aerys or even Jaehaerys were born.

Still, Rhaegel was an uncle of Aegon V, and thus could have been the inspiration for that name. Just as Aerys II most definitely was named after Aerys I despite the fact that Jaehaerys and Shaera never met their granduncle. After all, it is not unlikely that Aegon V chose the name of his first grandson.

But then, Rhaegar as a name is also pretty close to Maekar around the ending. So they could have created a new name honoring perhaps Egg's father as well as Princess Rhaelle (who might have died at Summerhall), or Rhaegar's own mother, Rhaella. It is difficult to know until we get a detailed account of Rhaegar's birth. But I'd not be surprised if it turned out that a Rhaegar Targaryen had been the legendary founder of House Targaryen back in Valyria or at least been an important historical figure in the history of the Freehold.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

There are possible in-world explanations, like that they wanted to give him a name with a clean slate, or perhaps "Rhaegar" has some meaning in Valyrian we're not aware of, or maybe he was named after a legendary Valyrian hero... But the true explanation probably is that GRRM wanted Rhaegar to stand out, just like Rhaenyra.

I think it is actually more likely that he was beginning to think more about the naming thing a little further down the road. But then, he had the chance to add more Rhaegars and Rhaenyras to the family tree with TWoIaF.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

Anyway, I don't think that it makes much sense that neither Aenar or Daenys have appeared for centuries, since these two had saved the family with their decision to leave the Freehold. Especially since many of their descendants were interested in magic and prophecies, I'd assume they would have liked to honor them.

I guess names can fell out of favor (the idea of Aenar having a son named Aenar who turned out to be a complete failure sort of could explain that, just as Maegor, Tyrion, or Loreon were names that fell out of use because of the men bearing them). 

The Daenys thing is odd, I agree, but you can sort of get over that by seeing Daella, Daena, and Daenerys as variations of that name.

[Grievous]

Great thread, here's some of my thoughts:

Personally, when piecing together the unknown areas around canon entities, I tend to go with an assumption of minimal additions; ie. when it says Aenar took his wives with him, I tend to take that to mean two wives until proven otherwise, unless there is a very strong reason to assume something else. Considering also that the Targaryens end up being quite a small family (at the time of the Conquest), there is some pressure to keep the family tree from growing too huge and really no evidence to think that Aenar had a horde of sons going around. So, I'm not entirely on board with this gaggle of wives proposed. A Lyseni wife in addition to the sister, however, does indeed have a nice ring to it, considering it's status as a resort. The Lyseni seem to have killed some dragonlords in the city, which suggests it was an unruly time.

I can easily see the Targaryens asserting themselves as the effective rulers of the Narrow Sea, their dragons allowing them to strike at shipping which isn't compliant to them. It seems to be an obvious route to influence and wealth, considering they don't control much land at this stage. That does create a somewhat piratical image of the early Targaryens and I'm not sure about that (though as dragonlord heirs to Valyria I can see them feeling entitled to a share of others' wealth without thinking they are sinking to lowly piracy).

If the Targaryens were a trade power, it also raises the question of what were the Braavosi doing? We know they took part at the end of the Century of Blood, sending a fleet to assist Lys' breakaway from Volantis (yet they were not part of the coalition that broke Volantis itself and included Aegon the Conquerer). Braavos at this point may indeed have been less impressive in later days, but I'm sure they would not like the Targaryen dragons being used to exact "tolls" (protection money) from them.

Volantis would have courted the Targaryens, wanting their aid for their plans of empire and possibly looking to gain a dragon in the process. Thus, a marriage offering to a Targaryen at some point makes sense (maybe the generation after Aenar, when the conflict is starting up). As the Targaryens mostly stayed out of the conflicts of the Century of Blood (until the end, when they came upon Volantis), it may not have been accepted, but it is possible that a sibling or a cousin to a Lord Targaryen would have fought there at some point (even with his or her dragon, possibly even losing the beast). Of course, the fact that Targaryens stayed out could also be construed as evidence to the contrary; ie. that a deal with Volantis kept them out of the conflict, allowing the city to have imperial ambitions despite the Targaryen dragons.

Pentos seems to have always enjoyed good relations with the Targaryens, so it is likely that there may have been early marriages to establish this fact (and their location seems important to any budding trade empire by the Targaryens and unfortunate to the Pentosi if the Targaryens demanded tribute due to their dragons).

As an aside, regarding the myth of Urrax being killed by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. The myth is placed during First Men days, but it seems muddled regardless (interestingly, Varys proposed Daeryssa as the name of a few Targaryens there..). Maybe Urrax could have been one of these early Targaryen dragons, killed on mainland Westeros. No real proof pointing to that, but it's an interesting idea.

Ah well, as always, more questions than answers, really.

[Shuvuuia]

On 29.10.2016 at 8:13 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

I find it interesting that quite a few of the Velaryon names start with a V: Vaemond, Vaella, Valaena. If Lucerys is also a Velaryon name like Jaecerys then maybe the suffix "cerys" is also Velaryon. On that note it is interesting that there are no Targaryen names that start with a T.

I wonder if Valarr is also from the same origins? I've read somewhere that it wasn't a traditional name, but it has the same Va/Val beginning+ending like Aenar, only with additional r (or maybe i don't remember the spelling right)

[The Grey Wolf]

4 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

I wonder if Valarr is also from the same origins? I've read somewhere that it wasn't a traditional name, but it has the same Va/Val beginning+ending like Aenar, only with additional r (or maybe i don't remember the spelling right)

I think Valarr and Matarys are both traditional Valyrian names, hence their similarities to the names of two cities: Valyria and Mantarys, which I like to think Baelor gave to his sons to quell grumblings about his own Dornish appearance and being named after a weak king (Baelor) in the eyes of others.

[The Grey Wolf]

11 hours ago, Grievous said:

Text

I like your thoughts on Urrax. However, I don't think Aenar had only two wives. The way the line is written in TWOIAF to me very much implies that the Targaryens were a large brood when they first moved to Dragonstone. Also, there could be a number of reasons why that large brood over time fell in number: Childbirth, disease, death in battle or a storm, suicide, murder, poison, a hunting accident, a fall from a horse, the list goes on. Furthermore, it is said that the Targaryens often turned to Lys for wives and paramours, which only makes sense for the pre-Conquest Targaryens given the family tree post-Aerion.

[lojzelote]

I had gone through TWoIaF the other day, and noticed this:

"[...] the isue had not arisen when Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin."

I remembered Valaena Velaryon being half-Targaryen, but not Alyssa. Since she and Aenys must have been peers, that means there must have been at least one other Targaryen roughly in the same generation as Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya, doesn't it? Either a cousin or a second class half-sibling.

I have always wondered what befell the collateral branches of the family, since there aparently should have been a number of them, but we only get some sparse information regarding the main line leading from Daenys and Gaemon to Aegon the Conqueror. It's like there was a plague and they dropped like flies never to be mentioned again.

But the quote above suggests that some other Targaryens stick around. I wonder how many and for how long, and if perhaps a couple of them weren't the lesser claimants during the first Great Council.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I had gone through TWoIaF the other day, and noticed this:

"[...] the isue had not arisen when Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin."

I remembered Valaena Velaryon being half-Targaryen, but not Alyssa. Since she and Aenys must have been peers, that means there must have been at least one other Targaryen roughly in the same generation as Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya, doesn't it? Either a cousin or a second class half-sibling.

I have always wondered what befell the collateral branches of the family, since there aparently should have been a number of them, but we only get some sparse information regarding the main line leading from Daenys and Gaemon to Aegon the Conqueror. It's like there was a plague and they dropped like flies never to be mentioned again.

But the quote above suggests that some other Targaryens stick around. I wonder how many and for how long, and if perhaps a couple of them weren't the lesser claimants during the first Great Council.

There's also this:

The best choice, king and small council finally agreed, would be Rhaenyra’s cousin, Laenor Velaryon. Though the Great Council of 101 had ruled against his claim, the Velaryon boy remained a grandson of Prince Aemon Targaryen of hallowed memory, and a great-grandson of the Old King himself, with dragon blood on both sides of his lineage.

This passage tells us that Laenor had Targaryen blood through both Rhaenys and Corlys. Rhaenys is obvious, so we are left with the question as to how closely Corlys's Targaryen ancestor was related.. Is this simply a reference to Alyssa's Targaryen mother, with Corlys descending from Alyssa's brother? Or was there another Velaryon/Targaryen marriage we have yet to learn about?