Speculation about the Targaryens on Dragonstone

[lojzelote]

35 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

There's also this:

The best choice, king and small council finally agreed, would be Rhaenyra’s cousin, Laenor Velaryon. Though the Great Council of 101 had ruled against his claim, the Velaryon boy remained a grandson of Prince Aemon Targaryen of hallowed memory, and a great-grandson of the Old King himself, with dragon blood on both sides of his lineage.

This passage tells us that Laenor had Targaryen blood through both Rhaenys and Corlys. Rhaenys is obvious, so we are left with the question as to how closely Corlys's Targaryen ancestor was related.. Is this simply a reference to Alyssa's Targaryen mother, with Corlys descending from Alyssa's brother? Or was there another Velaryon/Targaryen marriage we have yet to learn about?

Yup. I imagine there must have been multiple marriages between the two families pre-Conquest. They are basically one extended family even the first century and half after (there are Aenys/Alyssa, Corlys/Rhaenys, Rhaenyra/Laenor, Daemon/Laena, the betrothals between Jacaerys/Baela and Lucerys/Rhaena, Baela/Alyn, Aegon III/Daenaera, the affair between Elaena/Alyn), which makes the later divergence (and estrangement?) of their lines rather surprising and kind of abrupt.

I wonder which other families the Velaryons have been marrying into. The Crownlands Houses mostly or a higher level?

To bring it more on topic, the name Alyssa makes me think they might have started intermarrying with the mainland Westerosi early on. Perhaps Lord Aethon's mother had been also an Alyssa? Or the mother of his wife, that mysterious Targaryen woman? I am probably way overthinking this.

(But, man, the thought of other Targaryens being there alongside the Iconic Trio feels so weird to me.)

[Lord Varys]

On 12.11.2016 at 3:10 PM, Grievous said:

Great thread, here's some of my thoughts:

Personally, when piecing together the unknown areas around canon entities, I tend to go with an assumption of minimal additions; ie. when it says Aenar took his wives with him, I tend to take that to mean two wives until proven otherwise, unless there is a very strong reason to assume something else. Considering also that the Targaryens end up being quite a small family (at the time of the Conquest), there is some pressure to keep the family tree from growing too huge and really no evidence to think that Aenar had a horde of sons going around. So, I'm not entirely on board with this gaggle of wives proposed. A Lyseni wife in addition to the sister, however, does indeed have a nice ring to it, considering it's status as a resort. The Lyseni seem to have killed some dragonlords in the city, which suggests it was an unruly time.

That is certainly also a possibility. And I must say I got a little bit carried away with the speculation on the wives. However, I plan to get rid of those branches eventually, of course. The interesting thing is how to juggle things so you can make the main branch remain most intricately related to all those who die out.

But I think I've already laid the groundwork for that in a way. The Baratheon children there wouldn't be eligible to marry back into the noble branches of House Targaryen just as the Summer Islanders and the Lyseni don't. The Maegyr brats might if it turns out that those dwarf-dragon monstrosities can father children (I'm not sure of that yet).

I think there might even have been third and fourth cousins coming with Aenar, although one might consider giving them, perhaps, slightly other family names, just as those non-noble relations of the Darklyns tended to have slightly different names.

We have to keep in mind that the text suggests Aenar the Exile did not come with his immediate family but his entire family and distant relations, including, most likely, most of his clients.

Quote

I can easily see the Targaryens asserting themselves as the effective rulers of the Narrow Sea, their dragons allowing them to strike at shipping which isn't compliant to them. It seems to be an obvious route to influence and wealth, considering they don't control much land at this stage. That does create a somewhat piratical image of the early Targaryens and I'm not sure about that (though as dragonlord heirs to Valyria I can see them feeling entitled to a share of others' wealth without thinking they are sinking to lowly piracy).

I'd not go as far as spin the tale of the Targaryens from Aenar to Aerion but what we know suggest that they were pretty quickly quite successful as merchant lords. But then, Aenar must have laid the foundation for that in the last decade before the Doom. During those days there was no war - and it might have taken quite some time after the Doom for the Century of Blood to affect the Narrow Sea.

Quote

If the Targaryens were a trade power, it also raises the question of what were the Braavosi doing? We know they took part at the end of the Century of Blood, sending a fleet to assist Lys' breakaway from Volantis (yet they were not part of the coalition that broke Volantis itself and included Aegon the Conquerer). Braavos at this point may indeed have been less impressive in later days, but I'm sure they would not like the Targaryen dragons being used to exact "tolls" (protection money) from them.

We know that enemy fleet attacked Braavos and the Titan itself during the Century of Blood (although never thereafter). That leaves a possibility for a (trading) war between Braavos and Dragonstone. I doubt the Sealords liked the idea of a dragonlord family living this close to their home turf.

Quote

Volantis would have courted the Targaryens, wanting their aid for their plans of empire and possibly looking to gain a dragon in the process. Thus, a marriage offering to a Targaryen at some point makes sense (maybe the generation after Aenar, when the conflict is starting up). As the Targaryens mostly stayed out of the conflicts of the Century of Blood (until the end, when they came upon Volantis), it may not have been accepted, but it is possible that a sibling or a cousin to a Lord Targaryen would have fought there at some point (even with his or her dragon, possibly even losing the beast). Of course, the fact that Targaryens stayed out could also be construed as evidence to the contrary; ie. that a deal with Volantis kept them out of the conflict, allowing the city to have imperial ambitions despite the Targaryen dragons.

Male Targaryens going off to Essos to fight in the wars of Essos most certainly is a strong possibility. And I'm inclined to believe that part of the weirdo reigns of Aelyx, Baelon, and Daemion might be connected to the Targaryens being more actively involved in the wars of Essos.

Quote

Pentos seems to have always enjoyed good relations with the Targaryens, so it is likely that there may have been early marriages to establish this fact (and their location seems important to any budding trade empire by the Targaryens and unfortunate to the Pentosi if the Targaryens demanded tribute due to their dragons).

Some Targaryen girl from a lesser or cadet branch could easily enough been married to the Prince of Pentos, yes.

Quote

As an aside, regarding the myth of Urrax being killed by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. The myth is placed during First Men days, but it seems muddled regardless (interestingly, Varys proposed Daeryssa as the name of a few Targaryens there..). Maybe Urrax could have been one of these early Targaryen dragons, killed on mainland Westeros. No real proof pointing to that, but it's an interesting idea.

Oh, that's a pretty good idea. If we have a real Daeryssa then there could also have been a real Urrax. A Westerosi singer could easily enough have come across some Targaryen history book mentioning these two, taking them out of context and putting them into songs.

22 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I think Valarr and Matarys are both traditional Valyrian names, hence their similarities to the names of two cities: Valyria and Mantarys, which I like to think Baelor gave to his sons to quell grumblings about his own Dornish appearance and being named after a weak king (Baelor) in the eyes of others.

That is a pretty good idea!

3 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I had gone through TWoIaF the other day, and noticed this:

"[...] the isue had not arisen when Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin."

The name of the Alyssa's father is Aethon Velaryon as per 'The Sons of the Dragon', apparently the son of the Daemon Velaryon who died during the Conquest. We also know from 'The Sons of the Dragon' that Alyssa is born in the same years as Aenys I (7 AC), making it very likely that Daemon Velaryon was closer to Lord Aerion's generation than the Conqueror's.

That opens up interesting possibilities. Now, let us assume Valaena Velaryon was a sister of Lord Daemon Velaryon. One should assume Aerion would have married his sister if he had one and not a cousin. However, we know the scenario of significantly younger siblings - Rhaenyra didn't marry Aegon the Elder, for instance. If Aerion had had a significantly younger sister she could easily enough have married Aethon Velaryon to become the mother of Alyssa Velaryon - and not just hers but also of the mother of the other famous Velaryons of that era - the second Daemon Velaryon (who is Master of Ships under Maegor the Cruel, possibly Alyssa's eldest brother). The first Corlys Velaryon who serves as first Lord Commander of the Kingsguard seems to be too old to be Alyssa's brother - he could have been a younger brother of her father, Lord Aethon.

In any case, it is easily enough imaginable that Alyssa's mother could have been an aunt of the Conqueror. Another possibility would be assume Aerion had a younger brother whose daughter was then Alyssa's mother. That could work, too.

I see no reason not to believe there might have been female Targaryens around we don't know yet during the days of the Conquest but I'm less certain that there might have been any men considering that those most likely would have played visible roles during the Conquest.

Quote

I remembered Valaena Velaryon being half-Targaryen, but not Alyssa. Since she and Aenys must have been peers, that means there must have been at least one other Targaryen roughly in the same generation as Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya, doesn't it? Either a cousin or a second class half-sibling.

It is also possible that Alyssa is just a rather distant cousin through whatever Targaryen had married Valaena Velaryon's mother. But that would put quite a few generations between her and Aenys' first common ancestor. Yet we have to concede that they would still be cousins in such a scenario.

Quote

I have always wondered what befell the collateral branches of the family, since there aparently should have been a number of them, but we only get some sparse information regarding the main line leading from Daenys and Gaemon to Aegon the Conqueror. It's like there was a plague and they dropped like flies never to be mentioned again.

Oh, it should be easy enough to kill them all off. The easiest way is to have many of them die in childbirth, make them sterile/barren, or have them die an unnatural death. Not to mention that the main branch would always reabsorb females from cadet branches back into their line if there were no sisters to marry.

Quote

But the quote above suggests that some other Targaryens stick around. I wonder how many and for how long, and if perhaps a couple of them weren't the lesser claimants during the first Great Council.

I'm more inclined to believe that those were descended from Aerea and Rhalla (and possibly even Princess Rhaena, if she took a third husband after Maegor). Another possibility would be that some acknowledged Targaryen bastards put forth their claims during the Great Council. Had Jaehaerys I any illegitimate children? What about Aenys I? Or Jaehaerys I's three surviving sons? Both Aemon and Vaegon could have entertained mistresses. Aemon would be a very likely candidate for that, considering that he had only one legitimate child.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

There's also this:

The best choice, king and small council finally agreed, would be Rhaenyra’s cousin, Laenor Velaryon. Though the Great Council of 101 had ruled against his claim, the Velaryon boy remained a grandson of Prince Aemon Targaryen of hallowed memory, and a great-grandson of the Old King himself, with dragon blood on both sides of his lineage.

This passage tells us that Laenor had Targaryen blood through both Rhaenys and Corlys. Rhaenys is obvious, so we are left with the question as to how closely Corlys's Targaryen ancestor was related.. Is this simply a reference to Alyssa's Targaryen mother, with Corlys descending from Alyssa's brother? Or was there another Velaryon/Targaryen marriage we have yet to learn about?

Alyssa's Targaryen mother - if she had a Targaryen mother - would be reasonably close to Corlys (if the second Daemon and Alyssa were siblings, then Corlys is most likely Daemon's grandson) but I'm not sure if that would be enough to say he has the blood of the dragon on both sides if his great-grandmother was a Targaryen woman only related to the main branch through some Lord of Dragonstone from before the Conquest (Daemion). That would Corlys and Rhaenys rather distant relations.

Even more so if their first common ancestor would be the father of Valaena Velaryon's Targaryen mother.

Thus I think it is reasonable to assume that Corlys is either the son of Aerea or Rhalla or the child of Princess Rhaena from a third marriage. If Alyssa Velaryon and Jaehaerys I intended to make her happy (and control her claim) in a third marriage then marrying her into Alyssa's nephew would have been a smart move. Much better than, say, allowing her to marry some great lord.

25 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Yup. I imagine there must have been multiple marriages between the two families pre-Conquest. They are basically one extended family even the first century and half after (there are Aenys/Alyssa, Corlys/Rhaenys, Rhaenyra/Laenor, Daemon/Laena, the betrothals between Jacaerys/Baela and Lucerys/Rhaena, Baela/Alyn, Aegon III/Daenaera, the affair between Elaena/Alyn), which makes the later divergence (and estrangement?) of their lines rather surprising and kind of abrupt.

My take on that is that the problem mostly was that the Targaryens no longer had any spare daughters to marry off to the Velaryon cousins. Daena the Defiant died young, Rhaena became a septa, and Elaena wanted to marry Alyn. Daeron II only has one sister and no daughters. Maekar's daughter Rhae could have been married to a Velaryon, now that I think of it. But that's it, really. Vaella as a lackwit wouldn't be all that attractive, and we don't know if Daenora lived to remarry after Aerion's death.

In addition, I think that Daeron II deliberately chose non-Velaryon Targaryen cousins to marry to his sons. I think that quite a few noble lines got Targaryen blood through the five daughters of Garmund and Rhaena, and Daeron II chose two such cousins from the Stormlands as wives for his two elder sons because he wanted to gain more influence there in preparation for his Dornish plans.Not to mention, you know, that Baela and Alyn might only have sons, making another marriage between the two houses difficult.

25 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

I wonder which other families the Velaryons have been marrying into. The Crownlands Houses mostly or a higher level?

I think one can make a case that there was a Targaryen/Velaryon-Darklyn and Targaryen/Velaryon-Massey match prior to the Conquest. We have Ser Steffon Darklyn and Lord Gormon Massey try to mount a dragon during the Dance - something that would be rather unlikely if they didn't thought they could do it. And if they thought they could do it then they most likely knew they had Targaryen ancestors (either through a direct marriage into the family or via a Velaryon match).

If I continue this speculation thing above I will have Gaemon the Glorious arrange a marriage between one of the Targaryen women and the heir of Duskendale to strengthen relations with the greatest Westerosi harbor in their vicinity. Good relations with them would have helped both sides.

In the Massey case blood relations with the Targaryens could explain why the hell the Masseys stood with Dragonstone rather than Storm's End even before the Conquest began. That's rather peculiar. And Ser Justin Massey still has 'fair hair', so perhaps there is something to this whole thing.

25 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

To bring it more on topic, the name Alyssa makes me think they might have started intermarrying with the mainland Westerosi early on. Perhaps Lord Aethon's mother had been also an Alyssa? Or the mother of his wife, that mysterious Targaryen woman? I am probably way overthinking this.

(But, man, the thought of other Targaryens being there alongside the Iconic Trio feels so weird to me.)

I don't think there were so many. Actually, I think there would only have been Alyssa's mother. At least in the years after the Conquest.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

Quote

It is also possible that Alyssa is just a rather distant cousin through whatever Targaryen had married Valaena Velaryon's mother. But that would put quite a few generations between her and Aenys' first common ancestor. Yet we have to concede that they would still be cousins in such a scenario.

"whatever Targaryen had married Valaena Velaryon's father", you mean

Nonetheless, the source that we have states that Alyssa's mother was a Targaryen, and that is the  connection that made her Aenys's cousin, making it likely that Alyssa was most closely related to Aenys through her mother's ancestry, and not through whatever Targaryen ancestry her father might have had (and likely had, considering the number of Velaryon/Targaryen marriages).

That leaves the question as to how closely Alyssa's mother was related to Aenys. Lord Aerion does not seem to have had any more children, but perhaps he did have a brother, whose daughter (Alyssa) married Aethon? Or a younger sister.. 

 

Quote

Alyssa's Targaryen mother - if she had a Targaryen mother - would be reasonably close to Corlys (if the second Daemon and Alyssa were siblings, then Corlys is most likely Daemon's grandson) but I'm not sure if that would be enough to say he has the blood of the dragon on both sides if his great-grandmother was a Targaryen woman only related to the main branch through some Lord of Dragonstone from before the Conquest (Daemion). That would Corlys and Rhaenys rather distant relations.

Even more so if their first common ancestor would be the father of Valaena Velaryon's Targaryen mother.

Thus I think it is reasonable to assume that Corlys is either the son of Aerea or Rhalla or the child of Princess Rhaena from a third marriage. If Alyssa Velaryon and Jaehaerys I intended to make her happy (and control her claim) in a third marriage then marrying her into Alyssa's nephew would have been a smart move. Much better than, say, allowing her to marry some great lord.

We know that Alyssa had a Targaryen mother. 

Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin.

Lord Aethon had a Targaryen wife. Who she was, or how she was related to the main branch is, again, completely unknown

I do agree with you that it might not be closely related enough, even if we assume that Corlys descents from Alyssa's brother (assuming she had a brother), to say that he has the blood of the dragon, and I agree (as you hopefully know, since we've discussed this before) that the option of Rhaena or one of her daughters is a likely one (though I'd guess, based on their ages, that Rhaena has a bigger chance than her daughters)

 

Quote

I think one can make a case that there was a Targaryen/Velaryon-Darklyn and Targaryen/Velaryon-Massey match prior to the Conquest. We have Ser Steffon Darklyn and Lord Gormon Massey try to mount a dragon during the Dance - something that would be rather unlikely if they didn't thought they could do it. And if they thought they could do it then they most likely knew they had Targaryen ancestors (either through a direct marriage into the family or via a Velaryon match).

Interesting thought!

 

On 14-11-2016 at 0:36 AM, lojzelote said:

Yup. I imagine there must have been multiple marriages between the two families pre-Conquest. They are basically one extended family even the first century and half after (there are Aenys/Alyssa, Corlys/Rhaenys, Rhaenyra/Laenor, Daemon/Laena, the betrothals between Jacaerys/Baela and Lucerys/Rhaena, Baela/Alyn, Aegon III/Daenaera, the affair between Elaena/Alyn), which makes the later divergence (and estrangement?) of their lines rather surprising and kind of abrupt.

I wonder which other families the Velaryons have been marrying into. The Crownlands Houses mostly or a higher level?

To bring it more on topic, the name Alyssa makes me think they might have started intermarrying with the mainland Westerosi early on. Perhaps Lord Aethon's mother had been also an Alyssa? Or the mother of his wife, that mysterious Targaryen woman? I am probably way overthinking this.

(But, man, the thought of other Targaryens being there alongside the Iconic Trio feels so weird to me.)

I would have thought it stranger if there had been absolutely no one left. We know that Aenar brought quite a number of family members to Dragonstone. Though it is possible that all died for whatever reason, I would think it more likely that one or two survived (which seems to have been the case).

[aadam13]

What about House Targaryen marrying into House Celtigar.

[The Grey Wolf]

1 hour ago, aadam13 said:

What about House Targaryen marrying into House Celtigar.

Certainly possible. Honestly, I'm surprised that a match never came up amongst the royal Targaryens. Btw, considering the brief existence of House Qoherys, does anyone here think that other Valyrian families may have moved to Dragonstone along with the Targaryens and want to venture as to what their house names might have been?

[Lord Varys]

On 15.11.2016 at 0:42 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

"whatever Targaryen had married Valaena Velaryon's father", you mean

Sure. Blasted fast writing. I constantly forget the articles and pronouns, too. Please don't think I speak the way I type...

Quote

Nonetheless, the source that we have states that Alyssa's mother was a Targaryen, and that is the  connection that made her Aenys's cousin, making it likely that Alyssa was most closely related to Aenys through her mother's ancestry, and not through whatever Targaryen ancestry her father might have had (and likely had, considering the number of Velaryon/Targaryen marriages).

That leaves the question as to how closely Alyssa's mother was related to Aenys. Lord Aerion does not seem to have had any more children, but perhaps he did have a brother, whose daughter (Alyssa) married Aethon? Or a younger sister.. 

As I've said, considering the presence of Daemon Velaryon as Alyssa's potential grandfather by the time of the Conquest there is a pretty good chance that Aethon's wife and Alyssa's mother was a younger sister of Lord Aerion. If Aerion had a sister ten or more years younger than he was (just as Daeron II or Jaehaerys I had, after his mother had remarried) then this could easily enough explain why he married his (first?) cousin Valaena rather than his younger sister.

Quote

We know that Alyssa had a Targaryen mother. 

Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin.

Lord Aethon had a Targaryen wife. Who she was, or how she was related to the main branch is, again, completely unknown.

I never thought about it this way but yes, if you read it directly it really must mean that Alyssa's mother was a Targaryen and not just descended from a Targaryen. The problem is that 'The Sons of the Dragon' doesn't elaborate on that by naming the mother or even spelling out that she was a Targaryen.

Quote

I do agree with you that it might not be closely related enough, even if we assume that Corlys descents from Alyssa's brother (assuming she had a brother), to say that he has the blood of the dragon, and I agree (as you hopefully know, since we've discussed this before) that the option of Rhaena or one of her daughters is a likely one (though I'd guess, based on their ages, that Rhaena has a bigger chance than her daughters)

I think it is easier to assume that the Velaryons didn't have many male branches. The easiest way to make sense of the genealogy is the following:

1. Unknown Lord Velaryon - unknown Targaryen woman (possibly a sister of Daemion, Baelon, and Aelyx): Lord Daemon Velaryon, Valaena Velaryon

2. Lord Daemon Velaryon - unknown woman: Lord Aethon Velaryon, possibly Corlys Velaryon

3. Lord Aethon Velaryon- unknown Targaryen woman: Lord Daemon Velaryon, possibly Corlys Velaryon, Alyssa Velaryon (born 7 AC)

I think it is more likely Corlys Velaryon is Aethon's younger brother rather than his son because Aethon is confirmed to be alive late in the reign of the Conqueror (during the campaign Aethon and Maegor fought together against Salassor Saan), making it not so likely he was already a middle-aged man when his daughter Alyssa was born. But Corlys Velaryon has to have been a man in his prime (I'd say at least in his twenties) when Visenya made him Lord Commander of the first Kingsguard.

On 15.11.2016 at 11:23 PM, aadam13 said:

What about House Targaryen marrying into House Celtigar.

Certainly a possibility but no such matches are confirmed. But one assumes that there were marriages between the Celtigars and the Velaryons, meaning that the Celtigars could have Targaryen blood through the Velaryons. One would assume there were no such in the decades before the Dance considering that Rhaenyra is rather dismissive of the idea that Lord Celtigar could mount one of the riderless dragons (although that is more likely a reference to the man's reputation as warrior or brave man in general not so much to his heritage - after all, the Celtigars are a Valyrian family).

On 16.11.2016 at 1:09 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

Certainly possible. Honestly, I'm surprised that a match never came up amongst the royal Targaryens. Btw, considering the brief existence of House Qoherys, does anyone here think that other Valyrian families may have moved to Dragonstone along with the Targaryens and want to venture as to what their house names might have been?

I'm not sure there was a Valyrian house Qoherys. I'm more inclined that people of that name existed and Aegon eventually ennobled them when he granted Harrenhal to Quenton. Prior to that they might have been virtual nobodies.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As I've said, considering the presence of Daemon Velaryon as Alyssa's potential grandfather by the time of the Conquest there is a pretty good chance that Aethon's wife and Alyssa's mother was a younger sister of Lord Aerion. If Aerion had a sister ten or more younger than he was (just as Daeron II or Jaehaerys I had, after his mother had remarried) then this could easily enough explain why he married his (first?) cousin Valaena rather than his younger sister.

Certainly possible.

 

Quote

I never thought about it this way but yes, if you read it directly it really must mean that Alyssa's mother was a Targaryen and not just descended from a Targaryen. The problem is that 'The Sons of the Dragon' doesn't elaborate on that by naming the mother or even spelling out that she was a Targaryen.

 

I can't say I see that as a problem. If "The Sons of the Dragon" gave contradictory information, that would be a problem.

 

Quote

I think it is easier to assume that the Velaryons didn't have many male branches. The easiest way to make sense of the genealogy is the following:

1. Unknown Lord Velaryon - unknown Targaryen woman (possibly a sister of Daemion, Baelon, and Aelyx): Lord Daemon Velaryon, Valaena Velaryon

2. Lord Daemon Velaryon - unknown woman: Lord Aethon Velaryon, possibly Corlys Velaryon

3. Lord Aethon Velaryon- unknown Targaryen woman: Lord Daemon Velaryon, possibly Corlys Velaryon, Alyssa Velaryon (born 7 AC)

I think it is more likely Corlys Velaryon is Aethon's younger brother rather than his son because Aethon is confirmed to be alive late in the reign of the Conqueror (during the campaign Aethon and Maegor fought together against Salassor Saan), making it not so likely he was already a middle-aged man when his daughter Alyssa was born. But Corlys Velaryon has to have been a man in his prime (I'd say at least in his twenties) when Visenya made him Lord Commander of the first Kingsguard.

Certainly possible. While I do think that there are bound to be some cousins somewhere (Corlys has six cousins, for example, IIRC), that doesn't mean that we should divide the Velaryons we do know about amongst those potential branches.

 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I can't say I see that as a problem. If "The Sons of the Dragon" gave contradictory information, that would be a problem.

It would depend on what George is going to base 'Fire and Blood' in the end. But that's still a long way down the road. But then, I could see Linda and Ran being rather interested in the exact grade of kinship between Aenys and Alyssa (that is one of the more interesting open questions) and George may have then decided that Alyssa's mother was this or that Targaryen, or at least a Targaryen without yet deciding whose daughter she was.

Quote

Certainly possible. While I do think that there are bound to be some cousins somewhere (Corlys has six cousins, for example, IIRC), that doesn't mean that we should divide the Velaryons we do know about amongst those potential branches.

Didn't have Corlys half a dozen nephews, suggesting he had had at least one younger who predeceased him? Vaemond Velaryon and his children would have been descended from the eldest younger brother of Corlys. 

Daeron and Daenaera Velaryon most likely are also descended from one of those nephews. Considering that I find it most unlikely that Daeron was one of the Velaryons losing their tongues to Viserys I (such Velaryons most likely wouldn't have risen to prominence after the Dance, nor is it likely that the king would have been allowed to marry the daughter of a man who had been dishonored in such a way).

Considering that Vaemond's wife, his sons, and younger brothers all went to KL to lose their tongues there, I think it is not unreasonably to assume that Corlys had two younger brothers and that Daeron Velaryon is a son of the youngest brother while Vaemond and his brothers who lost their tongues were children of the elder brother.

Daeron Velaryon also seems to have been young enough to fight in battles during the Regency suggesting that he is definitely not of the same generation as Vaemond and closer in age to Alyn Oakenfist. That way Daeron-Daenaera would be more distant from Vaemond and his wife, sons, and brothers giving us a better explanation why the hell Daeron accepted Alyn as Lord of Driftmark after Corlys' death. 

I'm not completely against the idea that there were multiple branches of House Velaryon back during the Conquest but considering that Lord Daemon died in the fight against the Vale fleet we can assume that some of his nephews or cousins also went down with some ships during that battle. Not to mention that some could also have fought and died in the Last Storm or some other battle during which the Targaryens lost some men.

[direpupy]

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Certainly possible. While I do think that there are bound to be some cousins somewhere (Corlys has six cousins, for example, IIRC), that doesn't mean that we should divide the Velaryons we do know about amongst those potential branches.

 

They where nephews not cousins, so like Lord Varys said they should be children of one or two younger brothers of Corlys

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would depend on what George is going to base 'Fire and Blood' in the end. But that's still a long way down the road. But then, I could see Linda and Ran being rather interested in the exact grade of kinship between Aenys and Alyssa (that is one of the more interesting open questions) and George may have then decided that Alyssa's mother was this or that Targaryen, or at least a Targaryen without yet deciding whose daughter she was.

Possible. This way, the full Targaryen tree does not have to be worked out completely yet.

 

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't have Corlys half a dozen nephews, suggesting he had had at least one younger who predeceased him? Vaemond Velaryon and his children would have been descended from the eldest younger brother of Corlys. 

Yes, those were the ones that I meant. I confused the term "nephew" with "cousin", my bad!

I agree that Vaemond is likely to descent from the eldest branch (Corlys's eldest younger brother), as he wishes to claim Driftmark for himself.

 

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Daeron and Daenaera Velaryon most likely are also descended from one of those nephews. Considering that I find it most unlikely that Daeron was one of the Velaryons losing their tongues to Viserys I (such Velaryons most likely wouldn't have raised to prominence after the Dance, nor is it likely that the king would have been allowed to marry the daughter of a man who had been dishonored in such a way).

Considering that Vaemond's wife, his sons, and younger brothers all went to KL to lose their tongues there, I think it is not unreasonably to assume that Corlys had two younger brothers and that Daeron Velaryon is a son of youngest brother while Vaemond and his brothers who lost their tongues were children of the elder of the younger brother.

Definitly agreed on the bolded.

Vaemond had "younger brothers". We do not have a number, but this would imply at least two brothers, possibly more.

Whether Daeron was one of the Velaryon's who lost his tongue..  He seems to have been loyal to Alyn, fighting for him in the Stepstones, so considering that Vaemond and his siblings had an issue with the fact that a bastard might inherit instead of them, they might not have been willing to support Alyn, another bastard, either.

Now, the difference, of course, is that Vaemond believed that Lucerys a bastard without a direct relation to House Velaryon, whereas Alyn was Corlys's bastard. Although Lucerys would have ruled with a Velaryon wife (Rhaena), and thus, his heir would have been a Velaryon by both name (through Lucerys) and blood (Rhaena), the fact that Driftmark would be ruled by a non-Velaryon was not appreciated by Vaemond and his brothers. So perhaps, the situations are not that comparable, but at least it might be another hint in that direction.

So, perhaps Daeron was one of Vaemond's younger brothers, but if he wasn't, that indeed must mean that Corlys had at least one more brother.

As to why Daenaera would have been allowed to marry a king.. I don't think that Daeron having had his tongue ripped out would have influenced that much. Daeron might not even have been alive anymore when Daenaera was presented to Aegon (as Daenaera was presented to the king in 133 AC, and Daeron died in  either 133 AC or 134 AC). Even if he had still been alive, his daughter was about to become the Queen of a Targaryen king whose paternity was not questionable. Even if Viserys I had punished Daeron, if anything can make up for such a thing, it would have been seeing your daughter become Queen (and your grandchild a King).

 

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not completely against the idea that there were multiple branches of House Velaryon back during the Conquest but considering that Lord Daemon died in the fight against the Vale fleet we can assume that some of his nephews or cousins also went down with some ships during that battle. Not to mention that some could also have fought and died in the Last Storm or some other battle during which the Targaryens lost some men.

That is very possible, I agree. The same can be said for some (male) Targaryen cousins, of course.

 

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

They where nephews not cousins, so like Lord Varys said they should be children of one or two younger brothers of Corlys

Yup, my mix-up.

[Jaak]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure there was a Valyrian house Qoherys. I'm more inclined that people of that name existed and Aegon eventually ennobled them when he granted Harrenhal to Quenton. Prior to that they might have been virtual nobodies.

Did Valyria have a status of "nobility"? Even Westeros does not seem to have a status of "nobility".

In Westeros, commoners including hedge knights are normally mononymous. Do commoners in Essos and Valyria bear surnames?

Quenton was "master-at-arms".  So how important were his predecessors?

Another previously obscure family was Baratheon.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Jaak said:

Did Valyria have a status of "nobility"? Even Westeros does not seem to have a status of "nobility".

Valyria's society had various classes. The dragonlords and sorcerer (princes) were at the top of the hierarchy, and everybody else was beneath them, with the slaves being the lowest class. The people running the Freehold were the people owning land which would have been a larger group than just the dragonlords and the sorcerers.

We know that Volantene nobility was made up, at least in part, by non-dragonriding kin of the Valyrian dragonlords, suggesting that there were different branches of nobility in Valyria and its colonies. But we would not be talking about primitive feudal nobility, of course.

9 hours ago, Jaak said:

In Westeros, commoners including hedge knights are normally mononymous. Do commoners in Essos and Valyria bear surnames?

That is pretty much irrelevant, actually. There are commoners like the Heddles or the Gulltown Arryns who have a family name, but having a name does not make you a noble.

9 hours ago, Jaak said:

Quenton was "master-at-arms".  So how important were his predecessors?

Another previously obscure family was Baratheon.

My point was that Quenton Qoherys was ennobled when he was made Lord of Harrenhal because he became a lord in his own right thereafter. The master-of-arms serving the Lord of Dragonstone is lord of nothing regardless whether his ancestors once owned some land in the Lands of the Long Summer or not.

Whether there is a family Baratheon is completely unclear as of yet. All we know is that there was an Orys Baratheon. Whether he took that name for himself, was given it by Lord Aerion Targaryen (or the Conqueror), or inherited it from his mother is completely unclear as of yet. As long as we don't learn that there were any Baratheons prior to Orys I would not assume that such people existed.

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Possible. This way, the full Targaryen tree does not have to be worked out completely yet.

Assuming George is going to do that. 'Fire and Blood' could shed more light on the Targaryens on Dragonstone and/or mentioning some of the names of the famous Targaryen dragonlords back in Valyria, but he could also just ignore that period entirely, focusing only on the history of the Targaryens in Westeros.

But I must say with Alyssa actually having a Targaryen mother it gets even more likely that she also was a dragonrider. We know the Targaryens had plenty of unclaimed dragons during the reign of the Conqueror and who if not Prince Aenys' wife should have been given permission to claim one of the hatchlings? Not to mention that Alyssa once mocked Maegor because he was apparently too cowardly to mount one of the young dragons.

17 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Yes, those were the ones that I meant. I confused the term "nephew" with "cousin", my bad!

I agree that Vaemond is likely to descent from the eldest branch (Corlys's eldest younger brother), as he wishes to claim Driftmark for himself.

Yeah, it is obvious that Vaemond Velaryon was the immediate heir of Driftmark after Laenor and Laena and their children. By the way, he was really presumptuous there, considering that even if Laenor's sons weren't his Daemon's daughters by Laena would have come next, not he and his sons.

17 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Definitly agreed on the bolded.

Vaemond had "younger brothers". We do not have a number, but this would imply at least two brothers, possibly more.

Technically all the half a dozen nephews could have been Vaemond's brothers but that's not a given. He could have just had 2-4 brothers with Daeron and Daenaera being descended from another brother of Corlys. The male children of all your siblings are your nephews and we have no way of finding out whether they are all descended from one sibling or more than one.

17 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Whether Daeron was one of the Velaryon's who lost his tongue..  He seems to have been loyal to Alyn, fighting for him in the Stepstones, so considering that Vaemond and his siblings had an issue with the fact that a bastard might inherit instead of them, they might not have been willing to support Alyn, another bastard, either.

It is not just that, it is likely that Vaemond's faction of the Velaryon family wouldn't have backed Rhaenyra and Daemon during the Dance. After all, Rhaenyra had Daemon execute Vaemond and fed his carcass to Syrax while Viserys I punished Vaemond's wife, sons, and brothers. The fact that Corlys and Rhaenys later stood firmly at Rhaenyra's side, with Corlys later legitimizing his own bastards as Laenor's heirs strongly suggests that Vaemond's kin lost all standing with Lord Corlys on Driftmark.

17 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Now, the difference, of course, is that Vaemond believed that Lucerys a bastard without a direct relation to House Velaryon, whereas Alyn was Corlys's bastard. Although Lucerys would have ruled with a Velaryon wife (Rhaena), and thus, his heir would have been a Velaryon by both name (through Lucerys) and blood (Rhaena), the fact that Driftmark would be ruled by a non-Velaryon was not appreciated by Vaemond and his brothers. So perhaps, the situations are not that comparable, but at least it might be another hint in that direction.

So, perhaps Daeron was one of Vaemond's younger brothers, but if he wasn't, that indeed must mean that Corlys had at least one more brother.

Thinking a little bit more on this thing there is perhaps a chance that Daeron was a son of one of Vaemond's brothers. They went with Vaemond's wife and sons to KL but it is nowhere stated that Vaemond's brothers took their families with them. And considering that one assumes that Vaemond was a pretty old man already at this point (we have to keep in mind that Corlys Velaryon married rather late, with his younger brother(s) possibly having children long before him), with his sons also already being men grown (I don't think Viserys I would have taken the tongues of children), we could reasonably assume that one of Vaemond's tongueless brothers could have already a son, Daeron, who already had a six-year-old daughter, Daenaera, in 133 AC.

If Daeron himself was untainted by the whole Vaemond affair, keeping his tongue in the process, it is not so far-fetched he could have risen to prominence after the Dance.

17 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

As to why Daenaera would have been allowed to marry a king.. I don't think that Daeron having had his tongue ripped out would have influenced that much. Daeron might not even have been alive anymore when Daenaera was presented to Aegon (as Daenaera was presented to the king in 133 AC, and Daeron died in  either 133 AC or 134 AC). Even if he had still been alive, his daughter was about to become the Queen of a Targaryen king whose paternity was not questionable. Even if Viserys I had punished Daeron, if anything can make up for such a thing, it would have been seeing your daughter become Queen (and your grandchild a King).

We have to keep in mind that Baela and Rhaena presented Daenaera to their royal half-brother, effectively arranging this marriage. Especially Baela, the new Lady of Driftmark, most likely wouldn't have done that if her branch of the Velaryon family was unruly or tainted. If Daeron was one of the tongueless Velaryons, or closely related to those it could have been rather risky for Baela to put Daenaera into the bed of the king. Aegon III could easily enough have decided to reconsider the succession of Driftmark a few years later, resulting in Daenaera's brother or cousin being granted the lordship and Alyn and Baela losing it.

17 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That is very possible, I agree. The same can be said for some (male) Targaryen cousins, of course.

Not sure about the latter. We get a lot of names of rather insignificant people in Gyldayn's account on the Conquest. If there was still some male Targaryen cousin around, closely related to Aegon and his sisters, one should assume that such a person would have been mentioned as present when Aegon had his first coronation, not to mention that such cousins would most likely have played important enough parts in the war (until they died) to be mentioned specifically.

Some Velaryon cousins are much less important so it is easily enough imaginable that they weren't mentioned.

Thus I can only see other Targaryen women being alive at that point. A widowed Valaena Velaryon, perhaps, although that's not all that unlikely, or a Targaryen cousin already married to Aethon Velaryon at that point.

[Jaak]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Valyria's society had various classes. The dragonlords and sorcerer (princes) were at the top of the hierarchy, and everybody else was beneath them, with the slaves being the lowest class. The people running the Freehold were the people owning land which would have been a larger group than just the dragonlords and the sorcerers.

Owning how much land?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We know that Volantene nobility was made up, at least in part, by non-dragonriding kin of the Valyrian dragonlords, suggesting that there were different branches of nobility in Valyria and its colonies. But we would not be talking about primitive feudal nobility, of course.

That is pretty much irrelevant, actually. There are commoners like the Heddles or the Gulltown Arryns who have a family name, but having a name does not make you a noble.

Then how is "noble" defined?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

My point was that Quenton Qoherys was ennobled when he was made Lord of Harrenhal because he became a lord in his own right thereafter. The master-of-arms serving the Lord of Dragonstone is lord of nothing regardless whether his ancestors once owned some land in the Lands of the Long Summer or not.

At least, he's not called "lord".

At Field of Fire, Reach and West deployed 50 000 men, of whom 5000 were knights, and 600 lords.

Aegon sailed with 1600 men. In same proportion, it would have meant 160 knights and 20 lords. Plus knights and lords left behind on Dragonstone archipelago.

Looking at the attested masters at arms of major houses... Rodrik Cassel. Quentyn Ball. Willum Darry. Aron Santagar.

Darry certainly was a major noble house.

Just because Quenton worked as master-of-arms does not rule out his having been a minor noble, like a landed knight.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Whether there is a family Baratheon is completely unclear as of yet. All we know is that there was an Orys Baratheon. Whether he took that name for himself, was given it by Lord Aerion Targaryen (or the Conqueror), or inherited it from his mother is completely unclear as of yet. As long as we don't learn that there were any Baratheons prior to Orys I would not assume that such people existed.

We also hear that he was rumoured to be a bastard - meaning that this was deniable. Did he have an official father other than Aerion?

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Owning how much land?

How should I know?

4 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Then how is "noble" defined?

Presumably as being of noble birth - which means you are either the son or grandson of some lord or landed knight. Being the fourth cousin of some lords doesn't make you noble.

4 minutes ago, Jaak said:

At Field of Fire, Reach and West deployed 50 000 men, of whom 5000 were knights, and 600 lords.

Aegon sailed with 1600 men. In same proportion, it would have meant 160 knights and 20 lords. Plus knights and lords left behind on Dragonstone archipelago.

You are confusing things here. The Reach and West were feudal kingdoms prior to the Conquest. But we have no idea that Dragonstone was the same. Besides, we know the Lords of the Narrow Sea - Targaryen, Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon, Massey, perhaps Sunglass (although we don't know whether they lived there at this point). It is just a handful of people. The idea that the ratio of noblemen-common men was the same in the Reach-Westermen army as it was Aegon's army makes no sense.

4 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Looking at the attested masters at arms of major houses... Rodrik Cassel. Quentyn Ball. Willum Darry. Aron Santagar.

Darry certainly was a major noble house.

Just because Quenton worked as master-of-arms does not rule out his having been a minor noble, like a landed knight.

That is irrelevant, too, because while it is possibly to make some member of a noble family your master-at-arms it is no prerequisite that such a person has to be noble nor does it mean that such a person bearing the name of a noble family has to come from the noble branch of said family. For instance, a Heddle or Gulltown Arryn could easily enough be somebody's master-at-arms and he we could then not deduce that this persons father or brother is a lord.

4 minutes ago, Jaak said:

We also hear that he was rumoured to be a bastard - meaning that this was deniable. Did he have an official father other than Aerion?

No, we have no idea. Could be that Orys was the son of some unmarried woman. Could be that his mother was married and Aerion cuckolded her unknown husband. What we do know is that the matter is unresolved suggesting that Lord Aerion never publicly acknowledged the boy as his son nor did Aegon legitimize Orys as his bastard brother.

My personal impression is that Orys' 'official father' (if he one) must have died early and that he was raised in the citadel of Dragonstone alongside Aegon and his sisters, explaining how he and Aegon could get as close as they were. If that's true then it is entirely possible that Orys' mother was a commoner, perhaps a servant at Dragonstone. That could also explain why people don't know who his (official) parents are. Historians seldom record the names of servants.

The whole bastard rumor might actually be more based on the fact that Aegon later showed Orys so many favors rather than on any good information about Lord Aerion's paramours or lovers.

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How should I know?

 We don´t - but it´s relevant.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Presumably as being of noble birth - which means you are either the son or grandson of some lord or landed knight. Being the fourth cousin of some lords doesn't make you noble.

 And that´s something which was widely variable in medieval Europe. The concept of nobility as an inborn status that was kept indefinitely by younger sons of younger sons was widely but not universally recognized.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are confusing things here. The Reach and West were feudal kingdoms prior to the Conquest. But we have no idea that Dragonstone was the same. Besides, we know the Lords of the Narrow Sea - Targaryen, Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon, Massey, perhaps Sunglass (although we don't know whether they lived there at this point). It is just a handful of people. The idea that the ratio of noblemen-common men was the same in the Reach-Westermen army as it was Aegon's army makes no sense.

For example, Luwin stresses the difference between South, where knighthood is widely conferred, and North which does not have a legal status of knight - yet heavy horsemen, who are militarily equivalent to knight though untitled do exist.

Narrow Sea had not just Lords but also "middle class" - whether or not they were knighted at the time.

If anything, the supposed status of Dragonstone as a centre of trade on Narrow Sea would have promoted Dragonstone having a bigger "middle class" than a typical rural fief on mainland - not just landed knights, but also well-off merchants and artisans.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My personal impression is that Orys' 'official father' (if he one) must have died early and that he was raised in the citadel of Dragonstone alongside Aegon and his sisters, explaining how he and Aegon could get as close as they were. If that's true then it is entirely possible that Orys' mother was a commoner, perhaps a servant at Dragonstone. That could also explain why people don't know who his (official) parents are. Historians seldom record the names of servants.

Or they record, but do not bother summarizing. Ser Criston Cole at least had a surname, and we know who his father was (but not the name of father). Ser Qarl Correy had a surname, too.

[Paxter Redwyne]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

with his sons also already being men grown (I don't think Viserys I would have taken the tongues of children)

Viserys I was very edgy about calling his grandsons bastards (even though that was true) so who knows maybe he was able to mutilate children. He was the man who almost executed his brother for taking his daughter's virginty.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Besides, we know the Lords of the Narrow Sea - Targaryen, Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon, Massey, perhaps Sunglass (although we don't know whether they lived there at this point).

Sunglasses probably are probably of Andal origin given their name and devotion to the seven, so they probably weren't vassals of Targaryens by Century of Blood.

 

 

It is possible that Daemion Targaryen had other sons than just Aerion and Alyssa's mother was daughter of one of them. After all, World of Ice and Fire Targaryen pre-Conquest family tree contained only those Targaryens who became lords of dragonstone.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

Great thread & speculation, all!

On 10/28/2016 at 3:52 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

On that note isn't interesting that some of the pre-conquest Targaryens have names that were never used by the royals? So far as we know the names Daemion, Aelyx, Daenys, Valaena, and even Aenar were never used again...

Very true, though there arguably were variations: Daemon (indeed, there were at least two Lord Velaryons with this name) from Daemion, Daena/Daenerys from Daenys, Laena from Valaena ... On Valaena herself, given Vhagar hatched on Dragonstone in 51BC, if wonder if such was in conjunction with her own birth (being half-Targ) or Aerion's. What if she was a dragonrider, particularly if the same one Laena herself rode more than a century later!

On 10/29/2016 at 0:11 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Its interesting to note that after Aenar the next two Lords of Dragonstone apparently had no siblings apart from the sister-wives they ruled with, which I think implies that the Targaryens, and by extension, the Valyrians were a lot more open to women wielding open power, which we can see in that Visenya and Rhaenys were more co-monarchs with Aegon I than mere consorts the way say Mariah Martell or Rhaella Targaryen were

Good point. And also Good Queen Alysanne (though generally through more traditional womanly roles/aspects) besides Visenya & Rhaenys. I think it's fair to say that Mariah had more (ruling) influence on Daeron II than what Rhaella had on Aerys II though tbh, especially as TWoIaF says as much.

On 10/31/2016 at 1:06 AM, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure Alyssa is a traditional Valyrian name. There is a Alyssa Arryn to consider so Alyssa Velaryon could actually have been given a Andal-sounding name, or at least a variant of a name which connected more with Westeros than Valyria

I've oft wondered like with the Winged Knight-Artys Arryn thing, that Lord Ronnel's Stark wife was an Alyssa, further compounding the Alyssa's tears legend ...

On 11/13/2016 at 1:10 AM, Grievous said:

If the Targaryens were a trade power, it also raises the question of what were the Braavosi doing?

Well the Sarnori & Ibbenese were still greater powers at the start of the Century of Blood (along with Gulltown & White Harbor being truly established, in fact they would've been natural initial trade partners with Braavos in its earliest days), & so perhaps Braavos (& Lorath) concentrated on Shivering Sea trade instead of the Narrow Sea that is their focus in more recent times. At some stage, the Braavosi defeated the last great Sarnori war fleet at Bitterweed Bay (Lorath Bay or off the Ax?) so obviously that relationship soured (& of course the Dothraki rekt the Sarnori & Ibbenese on the mainland). Still, that's a fair few decades where Braavos would've been playing second fiddle if the Targaryens & Velaryons were aggressive about trade ... I'd just guess that even with their own power, Braavos would play nice to avoid the risk of other Free Cities uniting behind the Targaryen dragonlords & creating a new mini-Valyrian Freehold right on their doorstep.

On 11/14/2016 at 9:34 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

This passage tells us that Laenor had Targaryen blood through both Rhaenys and Corlys. Rhaenys is obvious, so we are left with the question as to how closely Corlys's Targaryen ancestor was related.. Is this simply a reference to Alyssa's Targaryen mother, with Corlys descending from Alyssa's brother? Or was there another Velaryon/Targaryen marriage we have yet to learn about?

Princess/Queen Rhaena, widow of Aegon 1.5 & Maegor I, as the mother of Corlys = headcanon:

• Corlys was named for the 1st LC of the KG. Two of the first seven members died defending Aegon I (Rhaena's grandfather) & as Ser Corlys was succeeded as LC by his fellow initiate, Ser Addison Hill, it's likely imo that he was one of these two. Plus that original seven is especially high-praised, something that would be part due to Ser Corlys - The Old, the True, the Brave.
• Lord Daemon Velaryon, though Maegor's "Admiral of the King's Fleet" (Cersei-esque paranoia at not having at least that Master on the Small Council?) initially (come on, Balerion - most were behind him to some degree before Jaehaerys put his claim forward when basically everyone hated him anyway), he was one of the first to defect to Prince Jaehaerys. "Great lords" followed him - I'm guessing the Lannisters & Tullys (the only two besides the Baratheons & Velaryons themselves we know who turned against Maegor before his death).
• The Sea Snake succeeded his grandsire & considering the timings, I'm guessing that was Lord Daemon. I'm assuming that Daemon was kept by Jaehaerys (Alyssa, especially if Daemon was a close relative like say a brother as has been posited by someone else earlier in the thread, & Robar too) as his own Master of Ships given his support of his claim (plus obvious practicality) & a consolidation of Targ-Velaryon relations (& blood) would be apt with a marriage.
• Rhaena was only 25 when Maegor died & 30 when Corlys was born. Jaehaerys chose Alysanne as his wife instead of his older sister & Robar (eventually, I'd love to know the dynamic & history between those two especially given the age gap - what if Argella was still alive - how would she feel about the match?) married Alyssa. An unnamed son of Lord Daemon would be a natural choice for as (another) husband for Rhaena given all the circumstances.
• As Addam & Alyn are all but confirmed Corlys' sons instead of Laenor's, Addam being able to claim Seasmoke is further bolstered if he had a dragonriding grandmother.

On 11/14/2016 at 10:36 AM, lojzelote said:

Yup. I imagine there must have been multiple marriages between the two families pre-Conquest. They are basically one extended family even the first century and half after (there are Aenys/Alyssa, Corlys/Rhaenys, Rhaenyra/Laenor, Daemon/Laena, the betrothals between Jacaerys/Baela and Lucerys/Rhaena, Baela/Alyn, Aegon III/Daenaera, the affair between Elaena/Alyn), which makes the later divergence (and estrangement?) of their lines rather surprising and kind of abrupt.

I wonder which other families the Velaryons have been marrying into. The Crownlands Houses mostly or a higher level?

Well with the (effective) extinction of the dragons with the Dance & the Targs increasingly having to look to Westerosi brides & grooms for political matches, the Velaryons fell to the wayside. Additionally, most of their wealth & some of their naval power was lost in the Dance & not even Oakenfist (particularly with the amount of fighting he had to do for the Crown - defeating Racallio Ryndoon's pirate fleet (effectively much of Tyrosh's navy imo given the breaking of the Triarchy & Pentos & Braavos bearing down on the Three Daughters to end it for good) in the Stepstones & defeating much of Dalton's Ironborn just within the Regency - not to mention also ransoming Prince Viserys from Lys & perhaps also acting as the ferry service for say the Vale forces during this time) could reverse that. Particularly as Alyn disappeared at sea between 171-176AC, Aegon IV had his retarded attempt to retake Dorne in 174AC where the royal fleet was scattered & destroyed in a storm, & the Unworthy likely betrothed Daemon Blackfyre to Rohanne (daughter of a Tyroshi archon) as an attempt to gain more ships ... Coincidence? Yeah, nah.

We also don't know who Daella or Rhae married (though it/they likely involved House Tarth &/or Dunk), & there's also the possibility that House Velaryon had a Targ bride in Daena (though I think she was the mother of Jena Dondarrion), a daughter of Elaena (whether Jeyne Waters or a Penrose), Daenora (if she survived Aerion), &/or Vaella (not likely to have married & had children, but can't be ruled out).

On 11/17/2016 at 9:42 AM, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure there was a Valyrian house Qoherys. I'm more inclined that people of that name existed and Aegon eventually ennobled them when he granted Harrenhal to Quenton. Prior to that they might have been virtual nobodies.

Possibly, but even with Quenton having been the master-at-arms who already had a grandson who could succeed him in 9AC (as per Sons of the Dragon) meaning that he would've trained Aegon, Visenya & Orys (who could all praise him for such); raising him to Lord of Harrenhal & marrying to a daughter of one of the new Lord Paramounts (even the "low" Tullys) is a pretty big step for Aegon if Quenton wasn't some sort of Valyrian nobility. Mayhaps House Qoherys was a vassal on Dragonstone or Driftmark or held the small island between Duskendale & Driftmark or the one in the "cradle" of Massey's Hook ...

On 11/17/2016 at 11:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

Daeron Velaryon also seems to have been young enough to fight in battles during the Regency suggesting that he is definitely not of the same generation as Vaemond and closer in age to Alyn Oakenfist. That way Daeron-Daenaera would be more distant from Vaemond and his wife, sons, and brothers giving us a better explanation why the hell Daeron accepted Alyn as Lord of Driftmark after Corlys' death. 

That makes sense. Obviously the Battle of the Gullet is something of a plot contrivance to have "allowed" for the Sack of Driftmark (& so the loss of so much Velaryon wealth - i.e. such & the Velaryon strength not even recovered under Oakenfist), but I wonder if Daeron was Corlys' admiral (Rhaenyra's Master of Ships?) during the Dance & stuffed up big time there (at the very least not keeping some amount of strength on Driftmark itself). Hence, ~16yo Alyn not only succeeds Corlys but is the one leading the royal/Velaryon navy from 133AC (instead of the older Daeron - hell, though he may have even fought for Corlys during the War for the Stepstones two decades earlier), & likely knighted when he was "dubbed" Oakenfist by the Regents later that year.

On 11/18/2016 at 1:17 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

As to why Daenaera would have been allowed to marry a king.. I don't think that Daeron having had his tongue ripped out would have influenced that much. Daeron might not even have been alive anymore when Daenaera was presented to Aegon (as Daenaera was presented to the king in 133 AC, and Daeron died in either 133 AC or 134 AC). Even if he had still been alive, his daughter was about to become the Queen of a Targaryen king whose paternity was not questionable. Even if Viserys I had punished Daeron, if anything can make up for such a thing, it would have been seeing your daughter become Queen (and your grandchild a King).

I think the Stepstones voyage (& so Daeron's death) was in 133AC soon after Peake consolidated his power as Hand with Tyland's death (& perhaps also as Protector of the Realm with Leowyn's) & he was the one who most specifically sent Alyn against Ryndoon (I interpreted the quote that Peake actually wanted the Iron Throne to claim the Stepstones on top of ending the pirates, but Alyn was like "yeah nah, fuck ya, stupid idea straight after the Dance & in winter & risk the Triarchy reforming" & was victorious before say Leo Costayne could even land Reach/royal forces there - who Alyn then ordered to head home). Alyn returned to KL, becoming Oakenfist, but was soon sent against Dalton & his Ironborn who he defeated some & then retired to Casterly Rock waiting for Johanna to marshal more of the Westerlands for the invasion of the Iron Islands. In the meantime with his main rival away from court, Peake has Jaehaera killed, holds the great ball when denied having his own daughter betrothed to Aegon III, & Baela & Rhaena prearrange with their younger half-brother to choose Daenaera to thwart Peake, consolidate Targ-Velaryon relations, & as a boon to the 6yo girl who had just lost her father. Whilst Alyn is at Casterly Rock waiting, news comes from Lys that Viserys is alive & the Regents immediately divert Velaryon to ransom him instead (gold lent by Johanna to him representing the Crown? Perhaps even the 1/4 of the treasury Tyland had sent there ). Hence Johanna has to hire/Alyn orders Leo Costayne to help with the retaliation invasion instead. Oakenfist stops at Sunspear again & perhaps convinces Aliandra to order her men to stop raiding the Marchers (which I'm guessing is why Caron resigned as a Regent in 132AC). It's now 134AC once Alyn gets Viserys from Lys & brings him back home with his captors/in-laws that starts the anti-Rogare shit-cycle period of the Regent Wars, which begins with Peake throwing temper tantrums until he soon resigns (to the, at least temporary, relief of all).

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I must say with Alyssa actually having a Targaryen mother it gets even more likely that she also was a dragonrider. We know the Targaryens had plenty of unclaimed dragons during the reign of the Conqueror and who if not Prince Aenys' wife should have been given permission to claim one of the hatchlings? Not to mention that Alyssa once mocked Maegor because he was apparently too cowardly to mount one of the young dragons.

I LOVE THIS! Make it so GRRM, make it so.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, it is obvious that Vaemond Velaryon was the immediate heir of Driftmark after Laenor and Laena and their children. By the way, he was really presumptuous there, considering that even if Laenor's sons weren't his Daemon's daughters by Laena would have come next, not he and his sons.

He certainly was, but I'm guessing the taint of Rhaenyra's elder "Velaryons" betrothed to Baela & Rhaena (obviously Corlys, Rhaenys, Daemon & Rhaenyra were all in this to some degree all for the benefit of themselves & each other), along with "classic" male-preference.

 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The whole bastard rumor might actually be more based on the fact that Aegon later showed Orys so many favors rather than on any good information about Lord Aerion's paramours or lovers.

Any chance that Orys was by Aerion & a second wife, but he was denounced as a bastard by Westerosi because of their (particular those who follow the Seven) anti-polygamy stance?

11 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Ser Criston Cole at least had a surname, and we know who his father was (but not the name of father). Ser Qarl Correy had a surname, too.

I get the impression that (some) hereditary stewards, especially for really notable families & castles, are minor nobility: Pooles (Winterfell), Tyrells (Highgarden), Coles (Blackhaven), Wayns (Riverrun), (possibly) Ladybrights (Sunspear), (arguably) junior-branch Royces (Gates of the Moon pre-AFfC), etc.

14 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Sunglasses probably are probably of Andal origin given their name and devotion to the seven, so they probably weren't vassals of Targaryens by Century of Blood.

Likely. Perhaps coming to Driftmark & becoming vassals of the Velaryons, maybe to even rise out of such with Robert's ascension (hence their comparative status to House Velaryon in ACoK).

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Jaak said:

 We don´t - but it´s relevant.

 And that´s something which was widely variable in medieval Europe. The concept of nobility as an inborn status that was kept indefinitely by younger sons of younger sons was widely but not universally recognized.

Well, not according to Downton Abbey. There the third cousin of the Earl of Grantham is about as noble as I am. Yes, you retain some sort special rank for some time but eventually your status is gone. Even if you are descended from some king. 

10 minutes ago, Jaak said:

For example, Luwin stresses the difference between South, where knighthood is widely conferred, and North which does not have a legal status of knight - yet heavy horsemen, who are militarily equivalent to knight though untitled do exist.

Narrow Sea had not just Lords but also "middle class" - whether or not they were knighted at the time.

If anything, the supposed status of Dragonstone as a centre of trade on Narrow Sea would have promoted Dragonstone having a bigger "middle class" than a typical rural fief on mainland - not just landed knights, but also well-off merchants and artisans.

That might be the case. But the idea that such Dragonstonian 'middle class' would be landed knights makes no sense at all. Dragonstone and the adjacent islands are volcanic islands. There wouldn't be much land to grant to some landed knights, just as those places don't feed a lot of people in the first place.

10 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Or they record, but do not bother summarizing. Ser Criston Cole at least had a surname, and we know who his father was (but not the name of father). Ser Qarl Correy had a surname, too.

Stewards occasionally do have surname (e.g. Vayon Poole) but this doesn't mean those are nobles. There could have been some noble Coles considering that Criston never had any trueborn children and there are some Coles (or men calling themselves Cole) with the Golden Company.

14 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Viserys I was very edgy about calling his grandsons bastards (even though that was true) so who knows maybe he was able to mutilate children. He was the man who almost executed his brother for taking his daughter's virginty.

Fucking the Crown Princess of the Realm was treason. Daemon was lucky that his brother did not execute him.

Viserys I decreed that everybody - the royal family included - would lose his tongue if he or she repeated Aemond's lies. The idea that some Velaryon children actually did that isn't very likely. Not to mention that all our sources tell us that Viserys I was a very lenient king.

14 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Sunglasses probably are probably of Andal origin given their name and devotion to the seven, so they probably weren't vassals of Targaryens by Century of Blood.

They still could have been already. Nothing would have prevented them from settling on Dragonstone if some Targaryen lord allowed it.

14 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

It is possible that Daemion Targaryen had other sons than just Aerion and Alyssa's mother was daughter of one of them. After all, World of Ice and Fire Targaryen pre-Conquest family tree contained only those Targaryens who became lords of dragonstone.

That is also a possibility. I go with the idea that Aerion had a much younger sister who married Aethon Velaryon but it is also possible that Aerion had a younger brother who was the father of Alyssa's mother.