reading Rhllor's fire

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Okay sum love for Moqorro coming your way. He has tattoo’s, he floated around in the ocean for 10 days and he char broiled Vic’s arm. Yuk, makes me wanta lay of grilled meat for a while. Moqorro is a better flame seer than Mel. He also mentions Benerro has sent him to seek out Dany. The reason I think Moqorro is not being completely truthful with Vic is because Vic and Euron don’t actually have Dany’s best interest in mind.

 

Another difference between Mel & Moq is Moq does’t seem to be carrying around a chest of supplies:

 

Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

 

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

 

She shut the chest, turned the lock, and hid the key inside her skirts in another secret pocket.

 

I’m just making conversation about the things that are transpiring in the books. I don’t have a theory. Sometimes when other people share their thoughts and ideas it helps me figure out wtf is going on.

 

That was good.  You made me laugh out loud.   I think where I was going with Moq (economy so much easier!) is that he is creepy and he has been sent after Dany.   Yikes!   What good could he possibly be to our little Dragon Queen?   Where is a Moq authority when you need one!    He did float around in the ocean for 10 days--who does that, really? And what exactly did he do to Vic???  I think we've all assumed that Mel is perhaps not really Mel, but perhaps a much older creature and I don't think for 1 minute Moq isn't some sort of weird not really a simple slave priest.   If nothing else these Red Priests have power.   You have brought up the ruby and possible control.   Moq doesn't have this that we've seen anyway, but he's got more power, at least more than I've seen in Mel.  I'm starting to think Mel is just posing as a Red Priest.   Maybe we haven't seen the fullness of her power yet as Shadow Binders are a dime a dozen in Asshai.  

Any thoughts on Thoros of Myr? 

[Clegane'sPup]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Any thoughts on Thoros of Myr?

Sorry, I got nuthin’ right now. I’ve had this annoying little gnat that thinks it’s a hornet buzzing around behind the scenes.

I agree Mel isn’t what she seems. And yes I think Dany needs to beware of the Ironborn, Moqorro, Quathe, Marwyn, the Citadel, the HoBaW and the hard to pronounce names of the people in and around the Slaver Bay area. Seems to me that people either want to possess a dragon or want the dragons dead.

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Where is a Moq authority when you need one!  

Indeed

[Wrl6199]

On 11/2/2016 at 7:28 PM, Seams said:

 

I suspect that Moqorro has his own agenda, too. He is really good at discerning details in the flames - telling Victarion tomorrow's weather and what kind of ships he will encounter for purposes of plundering. He may have seen things Benerro didn't see, but took the mission to go to Dany because he knew he would encounter the guy he sees as the real up-and-coming hero: Tyrion.

"...What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"Snarling? An amiable fellow like me?" Tyrion was almost flattered. And no doubt that is just what he intends. Every fool loves to hear that he's important.

(ADwD, Tyrion VIII)

Aside from seeing Tyrion in his flames, there are some details that, I believe, indicate Moqorro will be loyal to Tyrion:

...The red priest stood on the forecastle facing the storm, his staff raised above his head as he boomed a prayer. Amidships, a dozen sailors and two of the fiery fingers were struggling with tangled lines and sodden canvas, but whether they were trying to raise the sail again or pull it down he never knew. Whatever they were doing, it seemed to him a very bad idea. And so it was.

 

The wind returned as a whispered threat, cold and damp, brushing over his cheek, flapping the wet sail, swirling and tugging at Moqorro's scarlet robes. Some instinct made Tyrion grab hold of the nearest rail, just in time. In the space of three heartbeats the little breeze became a howling gale. Moqorro shouted something, and green flames leapt from the dragon's maw atop his staff to vanish in the night. Then the rains came, black and blinding, and forecastle and sterncastle both vanished behind a wall of water. Something huge flapped overhead, and Tyrion glanced up in time to see the sail taking wing, with two men still dangling from the lines. Then he heard a crack. Oh, bloody hell, he had time to think, that had to be the mast.

...

By the time the storm abated and the surviving passengers and crew came crawling back on deck, like pale pink worms wriggling to the surface after a rain, the Selaesori Qhoran was a broken thing, floating low in the water and listing ten degrees to port, her hull sprung in half a hundred places, her hold awash in seawater, her mast a splintered ruin no taller than a dwarf. Even her figurehead had not escaped; one of his arms had broken off, the one with all his scrolls. Nine men had been lost, including a mate, two of the fiery fingers, and Moqorro himself.

Did Benerro see this in his fires? Tyrion wondered, when he realized the huge red priest was gone. Did Moqorro?

(ADwD, Tyrion IX)

When a character loses fingers, the result is that they become loyal to the king who took the fingers (Great Jon Umber losing fingers in the mouth of Grey Wind is a good example of this). While Tyrion didn't literally kill the two men (of five) that he nicknamed Moqorro's "fingers," they were carried off by what looks like a dragon - a loose sail caught up in the storm. In fact, the imagery here makes Moqorro seem very dragon-like, with the green flames coming from the dragon's mouth on his staff. And he is described as having very, very black skin. Could Moqorro be Tyrion's Drogon?

Another detail concerns Moqorro's clothing when he is picked up by Victarion's people:

His voice was so deep it seemed to come from the bottom of the sea. "I am but a humble slave of R'hllor, the Lord of Light."

R'hllor. A red priest, then. Victarion had seen such men in foreign cities, tending their sacred fires. Those had worn rich red robes of silk and velvet and lambswool. This one was dressed in faded, salt-stained rags that clung to his thick legs and hung about his torso in tatters … but when the captain peered at the rags more closely, it did appear as if they might once have been red. "A pink priest," Victarion announced.

...

Victarion was uncertain. He came out of the sea. Why would the Drowned God cast him up unless he meant for us to find him? His brother Euron had his pet wizards. Perhaps the Drowned God meant for Victarion to have one too. "Why do you say this man is a wizard?" he asked the Vole. "I see only a ragged red priest."

(ADwD, The Iron Suitor - Victarion POV)

I have noticed a pattern of deserters and turncloaks being associated with ragged clothing. So Moqorro may have secretly abandoned the mission to go help Dany. I don't believe he is working on Victarion's behalf, except to the extent that Victarion can help Tyrion. Or maybe the ragged clothing represents his fake support for Victarion: he is given a new outfit with Greyjoy colors and sigil, sort of like Jon wore sheepskins when he was undercover with the wildlings. Moqorro may still be planning to help Dany, if he sees her interests and Tyrion's coinciding.
 

My god you wrote you god damn college thesis on here?!? I mean yeah it does seem like Moqorro has his own agenda just like all the characters of a song of ice and fire do.

[Isobel Harper]

On 11/2/2016 at 6:28 PM, Seams said:

 

I suspect that Moqorro has his own agenda, too. He is really good at discerning details in the flames - telling Victarion tomorrow's weather and what kind of ships he will encounter for purposes of plundering. He may have seen things Benerro didn't see, but took the mission to go to Dany because he knew he would encounter the guy he sees as the real up-and-coming hero: Tyrion.

"...What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"Snarling? An amiable fellow like me?" Tyrion was almost flattered. And no doubt that is just what he intends. Every fool loves to hear that he's important.

(ADwD, Tyrion VIII)

Aside from seeing Tyrion in his flames, there are some details that, I believe, indicate Moqorro will be loyal to Tyrion:

...The red priest stood on the forecastle facing the storm, his staff raised above his head as he boomed a prayer. Amidships, a dozen sailors and two of the fiery fingers were struggling with tangled lines and sodden canvas, but whether they were trying to raise the sail again or pull it down he never knew. Whatever they were doing, it seemed to him a very bad idea. And so it was.

 

The wind returned as a whispered threat, cold and damp, brushing over his cheek, flapping the wet sail, swirling and tugging at Moqorro's scarlet robes. Some instinct made Tyrion grab hold of the nearest rail, just in time. In the space of three heartbeats the little breeze became a howling gale. Moqorro shouted something, and green flames leapt from the dragon's maw atop his staff to vanish in the night. Then the rains came, black and blinding, and forecastle and sterncastle both vanished behind a wall of water. Something huge flapped overhead, and Tyrion glanced up in time to see the sail taking wing, with two men still dangling from the lines. Then he heard a crack. Oh, bloody hell, he had time to think, that had to be the mast.

...

By the time the storm abated and the surviving passengers and crew came crawling back on deck, like pale pink worms wriggling to the surface after a rain, the Selaesori Qhoran was a broken thing, floating low in the water and listing ten degrees to port, her hull sprung in half a hundred places, her hold awash in seawater, her mast a splintered ruin no taller than a dwarf. Even her figurehead had not escaped; one of his arms had broken off, the one with all his scrolls. Nine men had been lost, including a mate, two of the fiery fingers, and Moqorro himself.

Did Benerro see this in his fires? Tyrion wondered, when he realized the huge red priest was gone. Did Moqorro?

(ADwD, Tyrion IX)

When a character loses fingers, the result is that they become loyal to the king who took the fingers (Great Jon Umber losing fingers in the mouth of Grey Wind is a good example of this). While Tyrion didn't literally kill the two men (of five) that he nicknamed Moqorro's "fingers," they were carried off by what looks like a dragon - a loose sail caught up in the storm. In fact, the imagery here makes Moqorro seem very dragon-like, with the green flames coming from the dragon's mouth on his staff. And he is described as having very, very black skin. Could Moqorro be Tyrion's Drogon?

Another detail concerns Moqorro's clothing when he is picked up by Victarion's people:

His voice was so deep it seemed to come from the bottom of the sea. "I am but a humble slave of R'hllor, the Lord of Light."

R'hllor. A red priest, then. Victarion had seen such men in foreign cities, tending their sacred fires. Those had worn rich red robes of silk and velvet and lambswool. This one was dressed in faded, salt-stained rags that clung to his thick legs and hung about his torso in tatters … but when the captain peered at the rags more closely, it did appear as if they might once have been red. "A pink priest," Victarion announced.

...

Victarion was uncertain. He came out of the sea. Why would the Drowned God cast him up unless he meant for us to find him? His brother Euron had his pet wizards. Perhaps the Drowned God meant for Victarion to have one too. "Why do you say this man is a wizard?" he asked the Vole. "I see only a ragged red priest."

(ADwD, The Iron Suitor - Victarion POV)

I have noticed a pattern of deserters and turncloaks being associated with ragged clothing. So Moqorro may have secretly abandoned the mission to go help Dany. I don't believe he is working on Victarion's behalf, except to the extent that Victarion can help Tyrion. Or maybe the ragged clothing represents his fake support for Victarion: he is given a new outfit with Greyjoy colors and sigil, sort of like Jon wore sheepskins when he was undercover with the wildlings. Moqorro may still be planning to help Dany, if he sees her interests and Tyrion's coinciding.
 

Although I agree with you with regard to loss of fingers symbolizing allegiance to the person who took them, I don't see the connection to Tyrion here. However, I am a bit confused about who Moqorro is loyal to now...

Personally, I think Euron sent storm.  The storm is a hurricane.  In the scene you quote above,  the calm period before the strong gale was the eye of the storm passing over the ship.  Moqorro seems to mislike the "dark figure with tentacles" (to paraphrase poorly) that he sees in his flames,  so I don't think he's loyal to Euron.  Unless he doesn't realize yet that Euron is that dark figure? 

Thoros of Myr's red robes are also described as faded to pink.  He and the BwB associate themselves with septons, don't they?  Pink robes symbolize a red priests who has become more tolerant of other religions perhaps.  And his tattered clothes could represent Moqorro turning cloak in some fashion against Benerro.  Perhaps becoming more tolerant of another religion is a betrayal of sorts against the Red God who is (according to red priests) the only true God.  Or perhaps Moqorro has decided that aiding Victarion in taming a dragon is more important than reaching Daenerys, reaching Daenerys being the quest that Benerro sent him on. 

[Moving Watch]

On 1.11.2016 at 7:33 PM, Seams said:

What Mel said was the Jon Snow's sister was coming to him, not that it was Arya, right?

Not completely. At some point in her own chapter she thinks something like: "It had to be Arya. Who else could it be?" As far as I remember it, she saw a girl and she said that it's Arya.

But you know what? Regarding Arya, I had the same thought as you early on in the books! Cat had five own children, four of which took strikingly much after her and only one daughter after her father and that in the space of only two years. Things like that may happen, but knowing Martin's way of writing a bit, it should at least attract our attention. Additionally, Arya resembles very much Jon the bastard. Hence I was wondering from the beginning if she might not be Cat's daughter at all. Your quote about Sansa's thoughts takes the same line, thanks for it!

But... Jon having "more of the north in him than his brothers" does not necessarily mean that he isn't Lyannas and Rhaegar's son. His siblings are a mix of the North (father) and the Riverlands (mother) - Jon would be a mix of the North (mother) and the Targs (father). Obviously all of them took mostly after their respective mothers, so it makes sense, that Jon has "more of the north" in him. (Personally, I'm convinced proponent of the R+L=J theory.)

On 1.11.2016 at 8:10 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Mel is not who she appears to be. That ruby necklace around her neck binds her to someone or something just as that ruby bracelet around Mance's wrist bound him to her?

She surely isn't who she appears to be. But as to the ruby... I understood it as a device producing illusions rather than as a control instrument. Until Mance wore it, he appeared to all and sundry as the Lord of Bones. A perfect illusion, perhaps created by some special frequency waves from the ruby? I'm curious how Mel would look like if somebody removed that collar of hers?

[Clegane'sPup]

19 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

She surely isn't who she appears to be. But as to the ruby... I understood it as a device producing illusions rather than as a control instrument. Until Mance wore it, he appeared to all and sundry as the Lord of Bones. A perfect illusion, perhaps created by some special frequency waves from the ruby? I'm curious how Mel would look like if somebody removed that collar of hers?

Lol, getting my chuckle on.  I’m not sure as to how serious you are being so take no offense of my humor. No special frequency waves, maybe some chants, sorcery and glamour. This is what she said:

Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist. "Ask your red witch, bastard." Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

If she can take that ruby off she might be as old and decrepit as BR. On the other hand, maybe she can't take the ruby choker off until someone or something removes it.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 11/2/2016 at 11:26 PM, Curled Finger said:

Any thoughts on Thoros of Myr?

This was a trisky one. A very enjoyable snoop fest. I hadn’t realized that Martin had written so much about Thoros. Bottom line in my thinking is that Thoros requires no sacrificial burnings. Initially he is portrayed as a happy go lucky fighting, drinking carouser. When Lord Beric was gravely wounded the first time Thoros seems to have had some kind of epiphany. TLDR at the bottom. I try to include book and chapter so that anyone who is interested can check it out for themselves and read the context if they so desire.

The first time Thoros resurrected the Lighting Lord:

SoS c.17  By dark no more than two score were left, and Lord Beric was gravely wounded. Thoros drew a foot of lance from his chest that night, and poured boiling wine into the hole it left. "Every man of us was certain his lordship would be dead by daybreak. But Thoros prayed with him all night beside the fire, and when dawn came, he was still alive, and stronger than he'd been. It was a fortnight before he could mount a horse, but his courage kept us strong.

Thoros tells the Hound

SoS c.34  Yet I am not the false priest you knew. The Lord of Light has woken in my heart. Many powers long asleep are waking, and there are forces moving in the land. I have seen them in my flames."

SoS c.34  But when the Hound made to step toward his foe, Thoros of Myr stopped him. "First we pray." He turned toward the fire and lifted his arms. "Lord of Light, look down upon us." All around the cave, the brotherhood without banners lifted their own voices in response. "Lord of Light, defend us."

Fighting with the Brave Companions

SoS c.39  Thoros and Lord Beric were everywhere, their swords swirling fire. The red priest hacked at a hide shield until it flew to pieces, while his horse kicked the man in the face. A Dothraki screamed and charged the lightning lord, and the flaming sword leapt out to meet his arakh. The blades kissed and spun and kissed again. Then the Dothraki's hair was ablaze, and a moment later he was dead.

Thoros speaking with Arya

SoS c.39  "I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone."

Thoros speaking with Gendry

SoS c.43  "Your master had it right. I was no very holy priest. I was born youngest of eight, so my father gave me over to the Red Temple, but it was not the path I would have chosen. I prayed the prayers and I spoke the spells, but I would also lead raids on the kitchens, and from time to time they found girls in my bed. Such wicked girls, I never knew how they got there.

Thoros says

"I had a gift for tongues, though. And when I gazed into the flames, well, from time to time I saw things. Even so, I was more bother than I was worth, so they sent me finally to King's Landing to bring the Lord's light to seven-besotted Westeros. King Aerys so loved fire it was thought he might make a convert. Alas, his pyromancers knew better tricks than I did.

In the same chapter

"Fire consumes." Lord Beric stood behind them, and there was something in his voice that silenced Thoros at once. "It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing."

"Beric. Sweet friend." The priest touched the lightning lord on the forearm. "What are you saying?"

"Nothing I have not said before. Six times, Thoros? Six times is too many." He turned away abruptly.

Speaking with Brienne when she meets LS

FfC c.42  Her face, Brienne thought. Her face was so strong and handsome, her skin so smooth and soft. "Lady Catelyn?" Tears filled her eyes. "They said . . . they said that you were dead."

"She is," said Thoros of Myr. "The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose."

 

TLDR   Thoros can heal (?) and read flames. He doesn’t require human sacrifice. He doesn’t seem to have an agenda like Mel with Stannis or Moqorro with Dany. He resurrected Lord Beric somehow. He declined to resurrect Cat. Lord Beric resurrected Cat. All in all, Thoros’ character persona is way way different than Mel & Moq. What that means, me no know which one of the factions of R’hllor is <air quotes> are true.

The most difficult part for me to make sense of was the “That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul.”

Thoros does not seem to have the R’hollr dogma attached to him. 

I truly think that the various factitious religions discussed in Martin's ASOIAF is a way to expose the very real problems that arise with the idea that my god is the one true god. This is a fictional story. Given what I have read about Martin, taking his age and intellect into consideration I can see him lampooning religion.

[Minstral]

This topic comes up every now and then, and inevitably there is a comparison between Melly and Moqorro and who can read the flames in a more accurate manner. Usually the consensus is that Moqorro is the one as he does seem to have a better track record on getting his predictions right in the one book he is introduced than Melisandre has in three (ACOK, ASOS, and ADWD). However, she does have a proven track record of predicting dander to herself and Jon Snow. in fact there is a relevant tidbit from Davos that Davos theorizes:

"Maester Cressen tried to kill her, and she knew at once. From her flames, I’d guess. It seems to me that she is very quick to sense any threat to her own person, but surely she cannot see everything. If we ignore her, perhaps we might escape her notice."

This was the time that Davos was attempting to spirit Edric Storm away from Dragonstone, and indeed he was right that she didn't notice his efforts or that of his cohorts. Basically, here GRRM shows a weakness to the visions other than that the interpretation might not be accurate, it also shows that perhaps the visions from the flames are most reliable depending on the simplicity of the question and the content on what is being asked. If she asks to be shown "What threatens me today Master R'hollor" then she can reliably keep her self safe from danger. If she were to ask "what are the treasons that your cause (Stanni's fight) faces today my lord" then I guess the content of the visions changes markedly, in addition to being harder to decipher.

For Moqorro, it could be be that he is just shortening his reach. "What is a safe way to get to Meereen?", "Which route will take me there alive?" rather than "What path must be taken that will take me to the mother of dragons, Azor Ahai?". Ultimately we don't know the exact words that he uses when peering into the flame, but we don know Melisandre's words. Her POV chapter reveals that she is asking to be led to Azor Ahai, her gods chosen avatar and chosen one (supposedly supernatural forces that are at play that a human mind can't comprehend), and other complex questions with even more complex visions that she receives in return from the flames. It is seemingly much easier to find out that Jon Snow appears to be in danger though. The content of her visions border on indecipherable, but almost anyone would be able to figure out what the skull imagery meant when she witnessed it.

[JLE]

I think also that many have misunderstood the Azor Ahai story.

Sure, it's a story of a hero who wielded a flaming sword and drove back the Others...

but it's also the story of the man who, faced with what he believed to be a fateful choice, killed his wife (and possibly their unborn child: the story does not mention that but it must be a possibility.)

Which could be a metaphor for an absolutely necessary direst-need sacrifice, the good of the many outweighing the needs of one, duty conquering love (as Stannis and Melisandre seem to have taken it for), or it could be a metaphor for something far worse: Azor Ahai killing his own *progeny* to ensure his own survival. At best, the man who so badly wanted to be the hero that he would sacrifice anything *else* to that cause: at worst, potentially even the villain of the piece, either as well as being the hero or instead of it. The question being, did he have in fact another option?

The name of the whole cycle is "A Song of Ice And Fire". It's a cycle: summer and winter, life and death, the old giving way to the new - and, on all levels, that cycle has been broken. Those which have died, are rising from the dead - the walking wights north of the wall no less than Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn Stark - without the proper price being paid ("Only Death can pay for life", Mirri Maz Durr: if someone is to cheat death, another must die in their place.)

 - Drogo was called back from death, by the most terrible magic that Mirri had. But the price was inadequate: the deaths of his bloodriders obviously didn't count, not being part of the ritual but part of a common fight outside. The horse was, well, just a horse. The price actually paid - by trickery - was Dany's unborn child: and it was inadequate since he was not yet properly alive. And what was returned to Drogo was no true life. Even if not quite realising why, it is probably as well that Dany sent him back to the dead.

 - When Beric Dondarrion was called back from death - accidentally - no price was paid at all. Thoros did not even intend to do so: something is very badly wrong with the balance between life and death considering that it happened anyway, even without intention. The once might have been forgivable since Dondarrion was slain again soon after: but Thoros has repeated his "accident" again and again so that is no longer an accident, but a purposeful repetition of what he and Beric both know to be wrong. And less and less of Dondarrion has come back each time - he no longer has any memory of his true "life". In the end he is glad enough to let himself go, but at a terrible cost...

 - For when he gives up his own quasi-life to restore Catelyn, who has been dead for too long for Thoros to even think of trying, Thoros knows it to be an abomination that Catelyn rose. One might say that a "price" of sorts was paid - Beric's life for Catelyn's - but paid in false coin, because Beric was no longer himself truly alive: and what is left of Catelyn is a twisted, perverted parody of her.

Evidently the balance between life and death is itself out of joint, a theme also pursued in Ursula LeGuin's "Earthsea" series - particularly the third book, where the true villain is a wizard who has given up his truename (and with it his soul) in the pursuit of eternal life. Hardly a surprise that the dead of Westeros come walking again - by whoever's will that made it possible!

Even on a more prosaic level, the  "old giving way to the new" is being subverted. Quite apart from the seasons being out of succession and balance, the whole "game of thrones" over Westeros, is about inheritance - Robert's children not being truly his own: Renly, should he have succeeded, being incapable of siring an heir, which Stannis knows: even Stannis's child is deformed. Roose Bolton is not completely certain that "his bastard", Ramsay, is even his own - only the eyes being a resemblance - yet appears to accept Ramsay having murdered the legitimate heir, Domeric, and even accept that Ramsay will murder any future legitimate children of Roose's. And he is even trying to seize the birthright of the Starks on false pretences: thanks to Jeyne Poole not being the real Arya Stark. (Another thing the show got drastically wrong: I believe it is symbolically important that the attempted seizure of the Stark heritage is done through the false pretence of someone who is not even a Stark being passed off as one.)

Jon, of course, is a bastard - but the wrong bastard: i.e. not Ned Stark's, as he believes, but Rhaegar Targaryen's. Even he has been told nothing of his true parentage, although this was to keep him safe... because Ned did not trust King Robert, his best friend, not to order the death of a third Targaryen child. Considering his later orders concerning Daenerys (even though Robert had not given the actual order for the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon), I believe Ned's fears to have been justified.

And north of the wall: another royal bastard, Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers. His lifespan has already extended far longer than a mortal's, by what means I cannot guess, and at what cost: have other people died to keep his lifespan going, or to increase his power? (And does this tie in with the fact that Jojen's blood may be in the "weirwood paste" that gave Bran his first taste of true greenseer power?) Is he really a benevolent master to Bran - or is he hoping to make the child more powerful and then absorb the greater power for himself, and Bran will end up having to fight *against* Bloodraven? Did Bloodraven start investigating whatever was wrong between life and death himself, only to become part of the problem? And is Bran himself living on borrowed time - although in this case, freely given by his wolf, whose howling kept him alive when he should have died after his fall?

And, indeed, is Bloodraven really Bloodraven any more, or just the latest incarnation/possession of an older evil that sparked off the Long Night and is connected to the building of the Wall, but also to some ancient attempt to cheat death? (Of which the Lord Commander who became "Night's King" may have been the first post-Wall-building victim, but possibly not the last...)

Of course, in the show, there was *that* scene with Stannis and Shireen. GRRM is said to have hinted that a similar scene may be set up in the books, but I personally believe that the evidence points to it not necessarily having the same ending. For several reasons:

 - (1) One scene in the books (ASOS) but not in the show: Stannis, too, has seen a vision in the nightfires. It is the only vision ever described as being granted to one who turns out not to be a true believer (Stannis is in fact a skeptic of all religions, and follows R'hllor only because Melisandre has demonstrated power): and that vision is of a burning king. Not a burning child-princess.

 - (2) In the North - we see among the Mountain Clans, an interesting custom: they know that winter means death, and they know that the old die in the winter so that the young might survive and eat. The old "go out hunting"; if they come back with food, so much the better, both old and young make it through the winter: if they don't, then the young still have the clan stores. It's generally the older generation of the Mountain Clans who have joined Stannis: they do not care if they live or die, and thus are not bothered whether they die in the cold (as they would have done at home) or in battle. If they take Winterfell, they feast in Winterfell on Bolton's stores: if not, it is no great loss. The old give up their own lives, or at least take the risk of it, to make sure that the young survive.

 - (3) Look at House Umber. Split between Old and Young generations - Mors has a few old men to guide the youngsters, the future of the house, but ALL the youngsters are his: Hother has nothing but old men. Too old to fight... they will not fight against their grandsons, Umber does not fight Umber. They are there to starve out their grandsons' enemies. Hother is cooperating with his brother, and meanwhile Mors and company have proved themselves Stark loyalists with their hitherto successful guerilla war against the Frey forces, and with assisting Theon and Jeyne's escape. The Young Umbers are *outside* Winterfell: that is where the clan sees their future as being - i.e. NOT with House Bolton.
     (Extra note: In a page or two of an Asha Greyjoy chapter seen on GRRM's laptop a couple of years ago, it appears that old Mors's luck has run out, at least personally, but it's still possible that his few oldies made a Heroic Last Stand to let the Umber grandsons get away.)

 - (4) Look also at House Manderly. Wyman has contrived to arrange things that *he* - already injured - is the Manderly left behind at Winterfell while his son leads the Manderly army outside. But a father is less good a hostage for a son's good behaviour than a son for a father's: if Wyman Manderly contrives to take his own life, Wylis is free and is the new lord. And, knowing that Davos is still alive, Wylis *does* have the option - which Roose thinks he does not have - of defecting to Stannis outright: even if he doesn't do that, he can retreat to White Harbor. In both the Manderly and Umber cases, we see a similar policy to that of the Northern Clans: preserving the life, survival and independence of the younger generation, even at the expense of the old. The Manderlys have never quite been accepted as true Northerners, but if they are prepared to think *this* way, it will prove it beyond doubt.

 - (5) And of course, these are the people who follow Stannis now, and which he cannot help but watch. And in the absence of Melisandre, possibly learn from. If he is to survive to meet his daughter again, the Boltons will have to be beaten (unlike in the show) - but if faced with the choice of Melisandre telling him to sacrifice Shireen, I do not believe it will be Shireen who burns. See (1) above - a burning king, not a burning child princess.

Also see the Azor Ahai myth: Could AA have had the option, without realising it, of  sacrificing *himself* to empower the sword, and let another wield it - whether Nissa Nissa herself, or whatever unnamed witness survived to tell the story? Or did he commit the ultimate crime, of destroying his "posterity" to hang on to his "present", and while defeating the Others in his own time, ensure their return in the future?

And is Stannis going to be not "Azor Ahai Reborn" - the hero who made a terrible sacrifice for power he believed he needed - but "Azor Ahai Gets It Right This Time", the hero who made the ultimate sacrifice of his own life so as to give power to his red sword Lightbringer, and make it the real thing, for someone else to wield?

Also: "Two kings to wake the dragon". "Fire and Blood to wake the dragon". Theon is of course another possible "king" - he stands no chance of winning the title at an Ironborn Kingsmoot, but he can still make the claim in absentia to be the true rightful heir (as Balon's son) by virtue of not being rejected by it yet. And Stannis has promised - at Asha's instigation - that Theon's death will be by beheading. A king's  death in blood - and Stannis has himself seen the vision of the death of a king in fire, and I think he will be it... a king's death in fire... two kings, in fire and blood, to wake the dragon... the bastard dragon, Jon Snow. A proper price, of others dying in his place, WILL be paid for the resurrection of Jon, and my money's on Stannis and Theon...