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Little Walder and His Bag of Silver


YOVMO

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15 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

On this small point, friend, I feel we are deadlocked in disagreement.

Yes, absolutely, because Ramsay isn't Lord of WF at all, despite sleeping in Ned's bed. He ain't married to a Stark, and he and Roose know it, and the gods do too.

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8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, absolutely, because Ramsay isn't Lord of WF at all, despite sleeping in Ned's bed. He ain't married to a Stark, and he and Roose know it, and the gods do too.

On this you are correct. The Gods do know it. That said, as far as the north and the crown is concerned Ramsay Bolton is Lord of Winterfell. I believe that this would be good enough for Roose even while conceding that he is a bit like Balon Greyjoy in strict adherence to the old ways if you will.

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13 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

On this you are correct. The Gods do know it. That said, as far as the north and the crown is concerned Ramsay Bolton is Lord of Winterfell. I believe that this would be good enough for Roose even while conceding that he is a bit like Balon Greyjoy in strict adherence to the old ways if you will.

I think the NGC would disagree with Ramsay Bolton as Lord of WF. Nobody seems to treat him that way. The all defer to Roose. There is no evidence for Roose, and the logic and evidence we have points against him.

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think the NGC would disagree with Ramsay Bolton as Lord of WF. Nobody seems to treat him that way. The all defer to Roose. There is no evidence for Roose, and the logic and evidence we have points against him.

Except if we look at it with the eyes of "who stands to gain the most"

When someone stands to gain the most from a murder then to suggest that they aren't even a suspect(especially when that person has already shown a willingness to kill) is, I believe, a mistake. But given that it is not Roose are you simply going to say that Big Walder just up and decided to kill Little Walder? For what? Spite? To get one small step closer to the head of the line of succession? There is plenty of evidence that says Big Walder killed Little Walder but absolutely none which would suggest why. What could Mance have offered him? Why would Ramsay have wanted it? How could Lord Manderly have figured it out? What would Lady Dustin stand to gain by having a 9 year old Frey Killed? The only person in the entirety of Winterfell who actually gains anything from the death of little Walder seems to be Roose

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2 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

When someone stands to gain the most from a murder then to suggest that they aren't even a suspect(especially when that person has already shown a willingness to kill) is, I believe, a mistake. But given that it is not Roose are you simply going to say that Big Walder just up and decided to kill Little Walder? For what? Spite? To get one small step closer to the head of the line of succession? There is plenty of evidence that says Big Walder killed Little Walder but absolutely none which would suggest why. What could Mance have offered him? Why would Ramsay have wanted it? How could Lord Manderly have figured it out? What would Lady Dustin stand to gain by having a 9 year old Frey Killed? The only person in the entirety of Winterfell who actually gains anything from the death of little Walder seems to be Roose

One step? He's gained 2, probably soon 3 steps because of it. Yes, I think Big Walder needed no prodding for it. The murder was different, and Big Walder's are easy to see through too, especially because they redirect blame on someone he knew was already suspected of killing Freys. The bag of silver is a clue, not a literal one, but a reference by George to another kid who wanted to murder another kid, and paid a particular catspaw a bag of silver for it. Although I suspect it was more a spur of the moment, than premeditated. Little Walder was probably up to some misschief, and boasted about being on Ramsay's good side when Big Walder told him to lay off. Heck, Little Walder was likely threatening Big Walder that if he didn't show him some respect he'd have Ramsay set his dogs on Big Walder.

Roose has a large cavalry to lose, both Manderly's and the Frey's because of it. If he simply wished Manderly to die, he could have sent him out as a vanguard against Stannis, or on tactical deployment. More, Little Walder is Fat Walda's brother, that is Roose's wife.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

 

One step? He's gained 2, probably soon 3 steps because of it. Yes, I think Big Walder needed no prodding for it. The murder was different, and Big Walder's are easy to see through too, especially because they redirect blame on someone he knew was already suspected of killing Freys. The bag of silver is a clue, not a literal one, but a reference by George to another kid who wanted to murder another kid, and paid a particular catspaw a bag of silver for it. Although I suspect it was more a spur of the moment, than premeditated. Little Walder was probably up to some misschief, and boasted about being on Ramsay's good side when Big Walder told him to lay off. Heck, Little Walder was likely threatening Big Walder that if he didn't show him some respect he'd have Ramsay set his dogs on Big Walder.

Roose has a large cavalry to lose, both Manderly's and the Frey's because of it. If he simply wished Manderly to die, he could have sent him out as a vanguard against Stannis, or on tactical deployment. More, Little Walder is Fat Walda's brother, that is Roose's wife.

I agree. There are a lot easier ways of getting the Manderlys out of WF than an elaborate plot of murder. He could just say, "march on Stannis, Mr. Too Fat To Sit a Horse".

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Feel free to skip this if you don't want to muddy the analysis with literary clues.

The name "Frey" might lead one to think of a "fray." To me, this is synonymous with a melee. So I fully expect the Frey family to dissolve into a free-for-all where there will be a lot of internal killing and squabbling for control. I suspect the killing of Little Walder was initiated and executed by Big Walder, partly because of this Frey/fray hint from the author.

Of course, when used as a verb, "fray" means to "unravel or become worn at the edge." So the destruction of the Freys might start at the edges with people who are not close to current Lord in terms of the line of succession.

As I was reading through today's comment on this thread, however, I was also wondering whether the reference to learning from the Manderly soldiers to play with dice might be a clue. We suspect that several Freys were "diced" up and baked into pies. Maybe this adds to a possible Manderly-initiated attack on Little Walder. He wasn't literally "diced," but maybe this is a code word for Manderly-on-Frey violence.

I suspect there may be clues about this phase of post-Stark activity at Winterfell in the stories of the Night Fort. I attempted an analysis a few months ago - not sure I would make all the same connections today, but the similarities still strike me as worth some thought.

The overarching motive I can imagine for Roose is the desire to flay Starks. The ancient tradition for Boltons is to make cloaks out of Stark skins. I'm thinking that Winterfell is the ultimate "Stark skin" for Roose - he wants to control it and fill it with Bolton heirs. I just don't see him caring much one way or another about the death of a Frey kid. In the short term, Roose would care about keeping order while this diverse group of northern lords is trapped in the castle, so he would like to find out the murderer(s) and stop the killing. But Stannis is the bigger concern. I very much doubt that he would arrange for the murder of the child, hope that it would provoke Frey/Manderly violence (but just short of killing a high born lord, so the military focus is not undermined) and then use that as an excuse to order two armies to advance on the enemy. I think he didn't need that much of a pretext: if he wanted those forces to attack Stannis, he could have just ordered them to go without provoking the feud to a new level.

(The marriage of Ramsay to fArya is consistent with the goal of flaying Starks: Ramsay orders Theon to cut Jeyne/fArya's dress off of her at the bedding. And the suspicion is that, after the birth of an heir or two, the wife will no longer be needed.)

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21 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Then what is the explanation for the blood spatter on BW? 

ETA: Also, I think the blood spatter mention on BW is done subtly. I did not catch it on my first read and without this website I bet many people would not have found it either. Its not like the people in Winterfell suspect BW. 

I dunno. It wouldn't say it was described all that subtly, though:

Snow slid from Ser Hosteen's cloak as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew -- Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were splattered with blood.

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen's arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

A few grafs later, we have the line about his gloves caked with his cousin's blood.

So not only do we have bloody hands, but his entire upper torso is covered -- all described in graphic detail at practically the same instance we learn that LW is frozen solid, including his blood. It just seems to me that GR is going out of his way to have us make that connection, which puts my suspicion meter in the red.

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I dunno. It wouldn't say it was described all that subtly, though:

Snow slid from Ser Hosteen's cloak as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew -- Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were splattered with blood.

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen's arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

A few grafs later, we have the line about his gloves caked with his cousin's blood.

So not only do we have bloody hands, but his entire upper torso is covered -- all described in graphic detail at practically the same instance we learn that LW is frozen solid, including his blood. It just seems to me that GR is going out of his way to have us make that connection, which puts my suspicion meter in the red.

 

 

 

Does your book say splattered? Mine says spattered. I have them on Kindle. 

Yes, two mentions of blood but no obvious motivation when first observed. It's not the most difficult mystery to solve, but it is difficult enough for the people in the building to not blame BW.

There is stil no explanation for the blood. Why the spatter (splatter)?

The red herring is the dice game story pinning it on Manderly.

BW did it. As George says, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

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29 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Does your book say splattered? Mine says spattered. I have them on Kindle. 

Yes, two mentions of blood but no obvious motivation when first observed. It's not the most difficult mystery to solve, but it is difficult enough for the people in the building to not blame BW.

There is stil no explanation for the blood. Why the spatter (splatter)?

The red herring is the dice game story pinning it on Manderly.

BW did it. As George says, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

lol, yes, spattered, which I guess denotes smaller drops than splattered. And I suppose splatter is an amalgam of spatter and splash.

But I'm not going to jump to the obvious conclusion on this one. Theon sees the spatter and the bloody gloves from across the room, so it's unlikely that Hosteen and the others don't see it too. So BW must have made some excuse, but whether it is the truth or not...

Could it be that him digging the body out of the ice merely caked his clothes with frozen blood, which melted from his body heat?

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From a plot point of view, the murder was merely a device to cause a Frey/Manderly flare up of conflict. And Martin's purpose with this was to provide a remotely justifiable reason for Roose to send some of his troops from the safety and comfort of Winterfell to engage Stannis's starving army out in the cold.

This was necessary, because from a strategic point of view the overwhelmingly correct decision would have been to just stay in Winterfell and let Stannis's army freeze to death in the forest. They could never threaten Winterfell itself, and if they ever made it as far as Winterfell, the rested, more numerous Bolton troops could just pour from the gates and annihilate them in front of the Walls.

So Martin had to orchestrate a reason for Roose to send his army forth to engage Stannis in the woods. And the Frey/Manderly fight gave at least a somewhat plausible reason for doing that.

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9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

lol, yes, spattered, which I guess denotes smaller drops than splattered. And I suppose splatter is an amalgam of spatter and splash.

But I'm not going to jump to the obvious conclusion on this one. Theon sees the spatter and the bloody gloves from across the room, so it's unlikely that Hosteen and the others don't see it too. So BW must have made some excuse, but whether it is the truth or not...

Could it be that him digging the body out of the ice merely caked his clothes with frozen blood, which melted from his body heat?

No.

Quote

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen’s arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

Armored in pink frost means it's frozen. The blood is frozen. It wouldn't melt from off LW's body then stay on BW's clothing. And even if it did, it would not have melted into BW by the time they walk into the hall.

Even if the blood did melt and that's why BW has blood on his hands that would not explain the spatter. Look at the next use of the word "spatter" after Wyman is cut. 

Quote

Hosteen Frey’s sword was red almost to the hilt. Blood spatters speckled his cheeks like freckles. He lowered his blade and said, “As my lord commands. But after I deliver you the head of Stannis Baratheon, I mean to finish hacking off Lord Lard’s.”

After Hosteen slices Wyman his face is described as having blood spatters. So there is no argument of what having blood spatters on a person means. It would mean you were extremely close to someone that is being sliced up.

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6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

From a plot point of view, the murder was merely a device to cause a Frey/Manderly flare up of conflict. And Martin's purpose with this was to provide a remotely justifiable reason for Roose to send some of his troops from the safety and comfort of Winterfell to engage Stannis's starving army out in the cold.

This was necessary, because from a strategic point of view the overwhelmingly correct decision would have been to just stay in Winterfell and let Stannis's army freeze to death in the forest. They could never threaten Winterfell itself, and if they ever made it as far as Winterfell, the rested, more numerous Bolton troops could just pour from the gates and annihilate them in front of the Walls.

So Martin had to orchestrate a reason for Roose to send his army forth to engage Stannis in the woods. And the Frey/Manderly fight gave at least a somewhat plausible reason for doing that.

I agree. I tried to explain this earlier. You explained it better. Having so many men leave was not ideal for Roose.

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15 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Could it be that him digging the body out of the ice merely caked his clothes with frozen blood, which melted from his body heat?

If that was the case then Hosteen would have blood spatters on his clothing too for carrying Little Walder. Besides, it would look like smeared stains rather than spatters.

Spattered blood on clothes, etc, implies Big Walder was close to Little Walder to have blood spray onto him. At the very least it implicates him as a witness to the murder. As @OtherFromAnotherMother pointed out already

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On 04/11/2016 at 7:06 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

From a plot point of view, the murder was merely a device to cause a Frey/Manderly flare up of conflict. And Martin's purpose with this was to provide a remotely justifiable reason for Roose to send some of his troops from the safety and comfort of Winterfell to engage Stannis's starving army out in the cold.

This was necessary, because from a strategic point of view the overwhelmingly correct decision would have been to just stay in Winterfell and let Stannis's army freeze to death in the forest. They could never threaten Winterfell itself, and if they ever made it as far as Winterfell, the rested, more numerous Bolton troops could just pour from the gates and annihilate them in front of the Walls.

So Martin had to orchestrate a reason for Roose to send his army forth to engage Stannis in the woods. And the Frey/Manderly fight gave at least a somewhat plausible reason for doing that.

This.  This is why the murder happens and the fall-out plays out the way it does.  Ultimately who killed him doesn't really matter because it's more a plot device than an important revelation in itself.  Did Hosteen attempting to kill Manderley in front of a hundred witnesses and with several thousand troops around not strike other readers as incredibly reckless and implausible?  But it's written this way for dramatic effect and to spur things on.

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11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

This.  This is why the murder happens and the fall-out plays out the way it does.  Ultimately who killed him doesn't really matter because it's more a plot device than an important revelation in itself.  Did Hosteen attempting to kill Manderley in front of a hundred witnesses and with several thousand troops around not strike other readers as incredibly reckless and implausible?  But it's written this way for dramatic effect and to spur things on.

Yes. All too often we forget that books (even ASoIaF) need these sorts of things to happen to move things along. 

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Little Walder is closer to Ramsay than Big Walder.  BW saw what his cousin was turning into, Ramsay Jr. and wanted to end his life before he becomes another Ramsay.  Big Walder is really too far down in succession to even worry about moving one step closer but I admit, he is young and maybe figured he has the luxury of time.  He is the most likely candidate for the murderer.

The hooded man is another.  Maybe he wanted to ratchet up the tension between the Freys and the Manderlys just to see what kind of chaos it will bring. 

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32 minutes ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

Little Walder is closer to Ramsay than Big Walder.  BW saw what his cousin was turning into, Ramsay Jr. and wanted to end his life before he becomes another Ramsay.  Big Walder is really too far down in succession to even worry about moving one step closer but I admit, he is young and maybe figured he has the luxury of time.  He is the most likely candidate for the murderer.

The hooded man is another.  Maybe he wanted to ratchet up the tension between the Freys and the Manderlys just to see what kind of chaos it will bring. 

As discussed earlier, this would require the Hooded Man to kill LW with BW standing right next to him. Then BW would have to decide not to tell anyone that he just witnessed the murder of his cousin. Seems incredibly unlikely to me. It was BW.

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On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 9:05 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No.

Armored in pink frost means it's frozen. The blood is frozen. It wouldn't melt from off LW's body then stay on BW's clothing. And even if it did, it would not have melted into BW by the time they walk into the hall.

Even if the blood did melt and that's why BW has blood on his hands that would not explain the spatter. Look at the next use of the word "spatter" after Wyman is cut. 

After Hosteen slices Wyman his face is described as having blood spatters. So there is no argument of what having blood spatters on a person means. It would mean you were extremely close to someone that is being sliced up.

I don't know if I agree with this. "... armored in pink frost" does not necessarily mean he was frozen solid. Theon can't see into the core of the body -- all he knows is that the blood he can see from across the room is frozen. We also don't know for sure that LW has been out all night. He might have been missing only a few hours, so that when BW found him there was still wet blood in the body that got on his gloves if he had to dig him out. Admittedly, the "spattering" is suspicious, but then, my question is: why does no one suspect BW? He must have given Hosteen, at least, some plausible explanation, no? Even Wyman doesn't point it out when H accuses him directly.

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 3:21 PM, sweetsunray said:

If that was the case then Hosteen would have blood spatters on his clothing too for carrying Little Walder. Besides, it would look like smeared stains rather than spatters.

Spattered blood on clothes, etc, implies Big Walder was close to Little Walder to have blood spray onto him. At the very least it implicates him as a witness to the murder. As @OtherFromAnotherMother pointed out already

Not necessarily, if all Hosteen did was carry the body, there might not be any transfer at all. That's a lot different from digging a body from the snow.

Also, I am assuming that the spatters are on the outside of LW's cloak, not the inside, or else his other clothes would be spattered too. And if that is the case, doesn't it stands to reason that LW had his back turned to BW when he was killed?

But I agree that it certainly implies that BW was close at the time of death, but I don't think it confirms it.

I think there is some wiggle room here -- if only for the fact that his guilt appears to be too obvious.

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5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

why does no one suspect BW?

because he's a kid, because people have been murdered before without him having done it, there is bad blood between Manderlys and Freys, and they don't have CSI on cable.

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