Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[The Dragon Demands]

They went mad with power after the Red Wedding air at the end of Season 3 - the next writing they did (due to overlap) was therefore Season 5.  Which is when things started going off the rails.

[Rhodan]

On 17. 3. 2017 at 7:35 AM, TheCasualObserver said:

So the painful experiences before season 5 just didn't matter then Mr Benioff? Seeing your father killed after being assured he would live? Being forced to look at his decapitated head? Being stripped and beaten in public? Being psychologically and physically abused for months by Joffrey? Being hit and almost raped in a crowd? Being married against your will? Learning your mother and brother died horribly to try to save you? Watching your psychotic aunt get killed by her husband?

Nah. I guess a true feminist show proves that a woman can only become a player if she is violent from the start or following a rape. That feels like realism to me.

This thread wouldn´t be half as much fun if they weren´t constantly making dumbasses out of themselves, would it?

On 19. 3. 2017 at 3:18 PM, AlpenglowMemories said:

So, I've decided to begin re-watching Season 1, which I haven't seen again since around the end of 2012. Gotta say, while it's okay I'm noticing some of issues that have become commonplace complaints about the show in the earliest form. The characterisation of Cersei and Tyrion in particular have been very whitewashed away from their darker personality traits - I hadn't quite realised how much. But, as I said, it's fine. Decent, acceptable. Plot is staying close to the books. But I don't find creative aspects outstanding particularly. A lot of it scenes lack weight and intrigue for me. It's quite passive viewing, actually. Maybe I'll do a write up or something later on. 

Now playing the devil´s advocate here I would really be more tolerant to deviations, when context was still solid. Far-reaching changes like whitewashing Tyrion might be iritating, especially to hardcore ASOIAF fanbase, but it didn´t made terrible television exactly. At least he, unlike show!Cersei, has always been consistent. It´s becoming cliché to mentioning over-the-top-sex (at that time I thought "oversexing" Martin was almost impossible) and kinda forced exposition (and their combination...) of season 1, but honestly it felt like pretty typical but fitting for the medium adaptation. Who could see how it will look like, after writers start being "creative".

[Tolsimir]

Hello everyone, haven't posted here in a while.

Can someone tell me what the consensus is on these leaks? How likely is it that they are actually true?

[The Bear Who Knocks]

I'd say the bigger things that  have been up are quite likely to happen (wight hunt, blue eyes wight dragon, most of the dany and jon stuff, davos being best friends with his son's murderer Tyrion, meera leaving etc.)

[Chebyshov]

On 3/17/2017 at 6:37 AM, The Boastful Knight said:

Like the others have said, I think it's not about the show not following the books anymore. It hasn't been for a long time (although it probably should try to do that, since it was best when it did i.e. season 1 ). I mean I am sorry that I didn't get to see all the cool scenes from the books the way they were written there, or that I only got to see a butchered version of them (Kingsmoot for example), but that's my personal problem, although one that I voiced a few times in threads like this. 

But the series should stand on its own, and it should be criticized on its own. Sadly, I think that paints the show in an even worse light. Especially in seasons 5-6, when they started making up their own stuff. Boy, it really showed there. Not just because they mostly didn't follow the books, but more importantly because their own writing stinks. These people (D&D) are giant hacks, con-men who somehow managed to land an HBO show. How well connected and/or lucky do you have to be for that to happen with these writing skills? It baffles me that so many doesn't seem to notice that the emperors have no clothes.

Okay, so here is just a compressed list of what is wrong with the show in terms of writing, without the fact that it differs from the books. Corny, anachronistic-sounding dialogue. Everyone talks like it's XXI. century Earth or something. They don't even make an effort to have the characters sound just a little different than what you would hear on any other show (Vikings is also guilty of this).

Plotlines that make no sense even in the context of the show. Have Sansa marry Ramsey? Have Stannis burn his daughter? Have Arya be blinded for not being "no-one", then have her rewarded when she kills someone beacuse she is not "no-one"? Why did Jaquen punish her in the first place then? Have rulers of various factions killed, then have the someone who killed them take their place instantly? Seriously, it was a running theme last season. It does not work like that. None of it works like that. Remember when even in the show, acquiring power required careful plotting, backstabbing and conspiring? No, not anymore. Dany, Cersei, Ellaria and Euron can just straight up murder a ruler or rulers and take their place and nobody questions that fact. I can't stress enough how idiotic that is. it completely breaks immersion for me, it's like a particularly violent child's idea of how politics work. I could probably go on forever, but I think you get the idea. 

Characters have completely inconsistent motivations and personalities that change on the whim of the plot. The worst offenders are Jaime, Sansa and Cersei. Does Jaime care about his family's position and power and does he want to preserve it or does he careonly about Cersei and damn everyone else? It seemed like the latter was season 1 Jaime, but he was back in full force last year. Jaime's character development as a whole has been butchered by the way as well, because he doesn't seem to make up his mind on anything. His attitude towards Cersei, his kids, his father, Tyrion and in a broader sense, his family or his place in his family. He talks about Tywin's legacy in one episode, then in the next, it's "Cersei and me and to hell with everyone else". 

Then we have Sansa, who is sometimes a confident "player" of the game, then in next season, she lets herself be talked into a political marriage that doesn't benefit her in any way. It's almost like she reverts back to her former self for the sake of stupid, idiotic plot. Oh, and good old Cersei, she is a power hungry crazyperson, but for her children she is willing to burn the Lannister house to the ground. So she loves her children more than power. Okay, get it. But wait, then she blows up everyone to get power, screwing up everything his son worked for, which it then leads him to suicide, after which she is like, whatevs. 

Then there are some more subjective complaints that I have. In my opinion, there is a lack of dramatic tension in the show. Scenes that are supposed to be awesome (in the very literal sense of the word), well, they kinda just happen. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but CGI, even if it's very good CGI by TV standards just doesn't impress me. Case in point, the dragons burning the slavers' ships. I understand that many Unsullied fanboys of the show jizz in their pants whenever there is a "badass' Dany scene, but it's just not enough. She didn't earn that badass scene. And by the way, although the dragons looked nice, the scene itself was slow and devoid of any tension. 

Or for exapmle, take a scene like crowning Jon the king in the north. Apart from not making any sense (Ned's legitimate, and to everyone's knowledge, only heir, Sansa is sitting right next to Jon, the bastard watchman, and they crown him king), it is supposed to be uplifting, we are supposed to feel a mix of bittersweet joy and hopefulness that all the Stark children's struggles are finally coming to and end. Or something like that. But it falls completely flat on its face, because of the context. The northern lords are convinced by a ten year old girl to elect Jon to help him fight against the white walkers (whose existence they just accept), when previously they couldn't be convinced to fight against the Boltons. 

Other beefs I have with the show. Characters do very important things off screen (but don't worry, on screen we have a seven minute Tyrion is wise and funny scene with Missandei and Grey Worm). For example Arya getting back to Westeros, infiltrating the Frey castle, killing the Frey boys, baking them into a pie, and serving it to Walder. You know, the usual stuff. No need to show any of it. 

The budget. They have the most expensive TV show under their belt, and what do they spend the money on? Face maks, misplaced CGI budget (Wun Wun and dragons but no Ghost), Expensive, but ultimately pointless location shoots (Alcázar of Seville) around the world, hiring celebs because of star power (Ed Sheeran, really?), or misusing high profile actors (Max von Sydow, Ian McShane). And so on and so forth.

GoT, the series in my opinionhasbecome a giant spectacle for the masses. I guess you could see it coming with the level of success it has gathered over the years, with it becoming so mainstream. But I can't hel but feel a little dissapointed, because it started so well(season 1 in my opinion still is the best of the six) and I was a show apologist until season 5, so I understand someone wanting to like it. You asked if I hadn't read the books would I think it still sucks. Yes, i think I would. Let me ask you in reverse! If you hadn't read the books and wouldn't have that knowledge in your head, would you still like the show? Would you even understand it (not because you're stupid or anything, the show literally does a poor job of explaining things to unsullied viewers)? I think fans like you(who read the books but still like the show) have a case of headcannoning things in the show from their knowledge of the books. I'm not saying you necessarily do that, but I tended to do that in the past to handwave away the show's faults.

 Looks like I picked a good day to come back. Could have co-written this whole thing. Have co-written very similar things (incidentally, Part 1 of the Winterhell retrospective dropped today). 

The "lack of dramatic tension" is probably the main point for me. Things happen because the writers decide they happen, but it does so without reference to character arcs and journeys. So like, we're jammed into this EPIC BATTLE of Ramsay vs. Jon, for instance, but the rationale for the battle happening when it does was "we fight with the army we have." Aside from marketing and one letter, Jon and Ramsay don't mean a whole lot to each other. And then the 11th hour save was heavily forecasted, yet withheld in-verse for absolutely no logical reason. 

In the end, it's clear that this was done just because they wanted to paint this as an "against all odds" battle, but what it did was undercut the entire point they tried to make, namely how Boltons don't inspire loyalty (that's why Ramsay was fed to his own dogs, right?) And when you see that pieces move just because the authors think it'd be cool to move them that way, and the meaning itself is well...non-existent, the whole fabric falls down.

Why did Lancel go chase the kid under the sept? Because they wanted him to. Because they think it'll be cool TV, really. But it just becomes this weird Potemkin Village-esque thing. It looks like a quality drama, but it's lacking everything essential to making it so. In this case, the characters.

[Cas Stark]

5 hours ago, Tolsimir said:

Hello everyone, haven't posted here in a while.

Can someone tell me what the consensus is on these leaks? How likely is it that they are actually true?

I think they are probably 80% accurate, the leaks are supported by photos from the shoots.  Leaker is missing some things and doesn't seem to have everything covered, but I think Arya/Freys, true; Arya/Sansa conflict, true; LF dies, true; Wight hunt, true; Jon/Dany hook up/wall falls, true; Rhaegar/Lyanna flashback, true.  I'm probably forgetting some of the leaks, oh yeah, Cersei miscarriage, true, couple sand snakes killed, true.

[TheCasualObserver]

3 hours ago, Chebyshov said:

 Looks like I picked a good day to come back. Could have co-written this whole thing. Have co-written very similar things (incidentally, Part 1 of the Winterhell retrospective dropped today). 

The "lack of dramatic tension" is probably the main point for me. Things happen because the writers decide they happen, but it does so without reference to character arcs and journeys. So like, we're jammed into this EPIC BATTLE of Ramsay vs. Jon, for instance, but the rationale for the battle happening when it does was "we fight with the army we have." Aside from marketing and one letter, Jon and Ramsay don't mean a whole lot to each other. And then the 11th hour save was heavily forecasted, yet withheld in-verse for absolutely no logical reason. 

In the end, it's clear that this was done just because they wanted to paint this as an "against all odds" battle, but what it did was undercut the entire point they tried to make, namely how Boltons don't inspire loyalty (that's why Ramsay was fed to his own dogs, right?) And when you see that pieces move just because the authors think it'd be cool to move them that way, and the meaning itself is well...non-existent, the whole fabric falls down.

Why did Lancel go chase the kid under the sept? Because they wanted him to. Because they think it'll be cool TV, really. But it just becomes this weird Potemkin Village-esque thing. It looks like a quality drama, but it's lacking everything essential to making it so. In this case, the characters.

I knew you'd come back after such a great article. Loved the work as usual, you keep me sane in a GOT loving world.

On to your points here - I would disagree about the point they were trying to make with Ramsay's downfall. In this case, all that mattered was that a bad guy was killed horribly by someone he had mistreated. I genuinely don't believe anything else was meant to be inferred, not a morality play, not a political thesis, nothing. Sansa killed the guy who raped her. Woo hoo.

Even if we try to apply that kind of thinking  to Ramsay's story, I still don't come away thinking that he's somehow been brought down by his behavior. The matter of his death is actually irrelevant - we don't judge Ned on being decapitated, because ultimately his principals of fair rule and personal responsibility have greater longevity post death than Tywin's high handed and brutal methods. (Or at least in the books) 

In Ramsay's case, his defeat comes not from abusing too many people, or failing to uphold the social contract or even just not being a psychotic bastard every once in a while. He dies because for plot reasons he ignores the fact that a foreign army invaded his land and occupied the lynchpin of northern defense for three months (or however long it takes for Sansa and Jon to fuck up getting any help from the North, then march south to fight). It's basically a plot hole. Ramsay fails because of a plot hole created for the dramatic tension of a single episode. And anyone who didn't know LF was going to show up with the Knights of the Vale is either an idiot or a liar, so it wasn't even a surprise. For this show image is everything; examine it even slightly (as you've done so wonderfully) and it crumbles, but no one seems to care.

And in the end was Sansa even significant to all this really? I was confused by LF's behavior, because he basically sits and does nothing for four episodes, but ultimately he did march north to put his plan in motion. Presumably he was going to do this if Sansa escaped the Boltons or not, so does the plot actually need her at all? 

[Chebyshov]

8 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I knew you'd come back after such a great article. Loved the work as usual, you keep me sane in a GOT loving world.

On to your points here - I would disagree about the point they were trying to make with Ramsay's downfall. In this case, all that mattered was that a bad guy was killed horribly by someone he had mistreated. I genuinely don't believe anything else was meant to be inferred, not a morality play, not a political thesis, nothing. Sansa killed the guy who raped her. Woo hoo.

Even if we try to apply that kind of thinking  to Ramsay's story, I still don't come away thinking that he's somehow been brought down by his behavior. The matter of his death is actually irrelevant - we don't judge Ned on being decapitated, because ultimately his principals of fair rule and personal responsibility have greater longevity post death than Tywin's high handed and brutal methods. (Or at least in the books) 

In Ramsay's case, his defeat comes not from abusing too many people, or failing to uphold the social contract or even just not being a psychotic bastard every once in a while. He dies because for plot reasons he ignores the fact that a foreign army invaded his land and occupied the lynchpin of northern defense for three months (or however long it takes for Sansa and Jon to fuck up getting any help from the North, then march south to fight). It's basically a plot hole. Ramsay fails because of a plot hole created for the dramatic tension of a single episode. And anyone who didn't know LF was going to show up with the Knights of the Vale is either an idiot or a liar, so it wasn't even a surprise. For this show image is everything; examine it even slightly (as you've done so wonderfully) and it crumbles, but no one seems to care.

And in the end was Sansa even significant to all this really? I was confused by LF's behavior, because he basically sits and does nothing for four episodes, but ultimately he did march north to put his plan in motion. Presumably he was going to do this if Sansa escaped the Boltons or not, so does the plot actually need her at all? 

Aw, thank you! (Stay tuned for tomorrow...I sorta recorded something I'm excited about).

You're probably right about the death, but I think it's funny they gave that dog line to pretend there was poetic justice. I think what I meant is that they're good at feigning significance with stuff like that. You can certainly see so in the Outside the Episode interviews.

I still can't believe "the North remembers" was made into a joke like that. Manderly just being some random old dude hanging his head like, "dangit!"

And no, Sansa didn't matter at all, lol. Of course she didn't! She was just dumped into a corner until they were ready for her to slaayyyyyy. I think Littlefinger was tired after magically taking Moat Cailin? His plan never had a chance of making sense the moment he gave Sansa to the Boltons while saying that he thought Stannis would win. Even if Ramsay is the most loving, best, husband there's no way he'd prosper from this deal, and certainly not succeed to the aims of that "vision" of his where he's on the Iron Throne married to Sansa (wut). It's just all noise to fill in the space between the smashy smashy.

[Meera of Tarth]

4 hours ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

I'd say the bigger things that  have been up are quite likely to happen (wight hunt, blue eyes wight dragon, most of the dany and jon stuff, davos being best friends with his son's murderer Tyrion, meera leaving etc.)

It's not clear if Meera will leave. In her interview, Ellie said that she would be there to protect Bran. And, if I recall correctly, that leak included that she leaves him because "he has changed"...I think that part of the leak was weird. But it could happen, unfortunately

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Chebyshov said:

 Looks like I picked a good day to come back. Could have co-written this whole thing. Have co-written very similar things (incidentally, Part 1 of the Winterhell retrospective dropped today). 

The "lack of dramatic tension" is probably the main point for me. Things happen because the writers decide they happen, but it does so without reference to character arcs and journeys. So like, we're jammed into this EPIC BATTLE of Ramsay vs. Jon, for instance, but the rationale for the battle happening when it does was "we fight with the army we have." Aside from marketing and one letter, Jon and Ramsay don't mean a whole lot to each other. And then the 11th hour save was heavily forecasted, yet withheld in-verse for absolutely no logical reason. 

In the end, it's clear that this was done just because they wanted to paint this as an "against all odds" battle, but what it did was undercut the entire point they tried to make, namely how Boltons don't inspire loyalty (that's why Ramsay was fed to his own dogs, right?) And when you see that pieces move just because the authors think it'd be cool to move them that way, and the meaning itself is well...non-existent, the whole fabric falls down.

Why did Lancel go chase the kid under the sept? Because they wanted him to. Because they think it'll be cool TV, really. But it just becomes this weird Potemkin Village-esque thing. It looks like a quality drama, but it's lacking everything essential to making it so. In this case, the characters.

Mel pulls a Peppermint Butler

Thanks for the amazing recap. I needed it because I literally, not figuratively, fell asleep during may parts of season 6 because it was boring as all hells.

[Meera of Tarth]

4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I think they are probably 80% accurate, the leaks are supported by photos from the shoots.  Leaker is missing some things and doesn't seem to have everything covered, but I think Arya/Freys, true; Arya/Sansa conflict, true; LF dies, true; Wight hunt, true; Jon/Dany hook up/wall falls, true; Rhaegar/Lyanna flashback, true.  I'm probably forgetting some of the leaks, oh yeah, Cersei miscarriage, true, couple sand snakes killed, true.

I'd say these are the chances;

Arya/Sansa conflict: 100%

Jaime and Brienne not having sex in public: 100% (this is the only official thing the leaker said about them, after having forgotten Brienne would be in the Dragonpit ans asked about it)

LF dies: 100%

Jon and Dany together: 100%

Wight Hnt: 100%

Rhaegar/Lyanna flashback: 100% but maybe different than what he said

Wall Falling: 100%

Arya/Freys: 80-100%

Olenna dying: 80%

Jonerys boatsex: 70%

Meera leaving: 50%

Theon's plot:  first part true, the other probably fake

The Plot of the North exactly as the leaker said: 40%

Cersei's pregnancy and miscarriage: 40%

Oldtown as the leaker said: 20%

[Tolsimir]

I guess just the fact that the leaks are awful should have been confirmation enough.

Winds of Winter can't come soon enough.

[Byfort of Corfe]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 1:02 AM, Tolsimir said:

I guess just the fact that the leaks are awful should have been confirmation enough.

Winds of Winter can't come soon enough.

Just to add my .02

1. Tarlys join the Lannisters, 99% true
2. Tarlys and Lannisters sack Highgarden 100% true
3. Tarly and Lannister force ambushed by Dany's forces leaving Highgarden 100% true
4. Theon gets his butt kicked by some Iron Born 80% true
5. Cersei and Euron team up 90% true
6. Cersei kills Euron 60% true
7. Euron kills Cersei 70% true
8. Euron smashes Theon and Yara's fleet 75% true
9. Euron captures Yara 90% true

#1,2,3,&9 have photo evidence to back them up.  #4 has photo evidence that Theon is being assaulted, their dress makes them appear to be Iron Born but the identity cannot be confirmed.  #5,9, there are photos of Euron on horseback, leading Yara in chains through the streets of what appears to be King's Landing.  Unless D&D have been conducting a massive misinformation campaign I would have to say that most of the leaks mentioned here are true.  With only 13 episodes left it looks like it's going to be a bloodbath.

[Byfort of Corfe]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:48 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

I'd say these are the chances;

 

 

 

Cersei's pregnancy and miscarriage: 40%

 

This is a new one on me.  Wow....

[Rhodan]

Speaking about Lancel, were we supposed just to forget about that conspiracy between him, Olenna and Littlefinger that led to Cersei´s downfall in season 5 that didn´t make any sense either?

[Le Cygne]

On 3/17/2017 at 2:35 AM, TheCasualObserver said:

So the painful experiences before season 5 just didn't matter then Mr Benioff? Seeing your father killed after being assured he would live? Being forced to look at his decapitated head? Being stripped and beaten in public? Being psychologically and physically abused for months by Joffrey? Being hit and almost raped in a crowd? Being married against your will? Learning your mother and brother died horribly to try to save you? Watching your psychotic aunt get killed by her husband?

Nah. I guess a true feminist show proves that a woman can only become a player if she is violent from the start or following a rape. That feels like realism to me.

Excellent point, thank you.

Just to add, she was also framed for regicide and threatened by Littlefinger (and the show spelled all of that out, I quoted it on another thread). She's been passed from psycho 1 (Joffrey) to psycho 2 (Littlefinger) to psycho 3 (Ramsay) on the show.

[Byfort of Corfe]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Excellent point, thank you.

Just to add, she was also framed for regicide and threatened by Littlefinger (and the show spelled all of that out, I quoted it on another thread). She's been passed from psycho 1 (Joffrey) to psycho 2 (Littlefinger) to psycho 3 (Ramsay) on the show.

Sansa is definitely due to get some payback.  It's one of the reasons that I dislike the whole "Sansa is ticked off at Jon and realizes that LF was right" story line that seemed to gain credence during the "King in the North" scene in S6E10.  She has that scene with Jon when she says that only a fool would trust LF but now it looks as though she might.  I realize that GoT isn't into fairytale endings and I'm not asking for one, I just hope that they don't saddle her with either LF or SweetRobyn. Still though I prefer her story arc in the series as opposed to what seems to be her arc in Book 6.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Is there a place one can read on all the leaked info?

To be honest I have had such little interest in the show since season 6 ended I followed almost none of the off season chatter.

[TheCasualObserver]

4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Excellent point, thank you.

Just to add, she was also framed for regicide and threatened by Littlefinger (and the show spelled all of that out, I quoted it on another thread). She's been passed from psycho 1 (Joffrey) to psycho 2 (Littlefinger) to psycho 3 (Ramsay) on the show.

And they treat these experiences as though there was only one lesson she should or could ever learn from them: be violent and vengeful like Arya. So they put through all that to "correct" her and make her as much like Arya as possible. 

[TheCasualObserver]

9 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Speaking about Lancel, were we supposed just to forget about that conspiracy between him, Olenna and Littlefinger that led to Cersei´s downfall in season 5 that didn´t make any sense either?

Yes. Just like you were meant to ignore why he was the one sent to fetch Cersei if he is the key witness in her trial. And why, despite being given that job, he instead runs after a little kid he sees in the street so he can find the wildfyre. Is a child running in the street that unsual Mr Lancel? Did the script lure you down there?