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Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]


Little Scribe of Naath

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8 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Sorry for double post, I´ve just remembered something. I know it´s only one word and therefore it can be seen as nitpicky, but when Ramsey shows Sansa flayed woman who gave her the candle, he describes her as "your northern friend". In the setting where everyone (including himself!) is Northerner... 

Might've been symbahlic.

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9 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Sorry for double post, I´ve just remembered something. I know it´s only one word and therefore it can be seen as nitpicky, but when Ramsey shows Sansa flayed woman who gave her the candle, he describes her as "your northern friend". In the setting where everyone (including himself!) is Northerner... 

Typical of the later seasons....the more closely you look...the more problems you see.

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On 19/4/2017 at 1:29 AM, TheCasualObserver said:

In the books the brotherhood is a cautionary tale - they wanted to do good and raise themselves above others who killed and stole. They appeal to a source of authority - the old King - as a means of legitimizing what they are doing, but this is a polite fiction and they know it. It's a deconstruction of the Robin Hood mythos and it's fascinating to me. Ultimately that lifestyle is no way to live your life and they become consumed by a literal figure of vengeance, which robs them of their morality.

In the show the brotherhood show up after a lengthy disappearance to trade chicken jokes with the hound and help him get his (violent) groove back after dabbling with that pussy pacifism. 

 

The problem with using examples from the show is that almost none of it is given much thought beyond how it will look on a surface level. And this ties back into what I think is the show's idea of political theory, which comes from a teenager's mindset. It's that kind of cynicism which serves to insulate someone from having to think or care because "everyone is corrupt and nothing has meaning" which massages the viewers ego for disconnecting. 

More, in the books the brotherhood is already pretty much as bad as it is in aFfC. We know from jokes and comments made that "he gives them a trial" is pretty much a mock trial to  begin with, because it ends with "and then he hangs them". We actually see what type of trial it usually is at the start of Sandor's trial when they all accuse him of being responsible for the death of a list of names, some that died way back when, and he's only guilty of association. Only because Sandor speaks back and calls Beric out on his trial BS, Beric and Thoros try to find a legitimate reason to kill Sandor. And then when Sandor wins the trial by combat (of a death of a child he is actually directly responsible for) Beric lets him go. Arya's pretty much dillusioned by Beric's form of justice then. But basically all of it was winessed through the eyes of a child who's more a fan of stories of the Kingswood Brotherhood and Wanda the Fawn than of kissing stories. But we get the grain of truth in Arya's POV if you look for it. Only a superficial read makes one come away with the idea that the BwB are this grand, noble group. George deconstructs the trope already in Arya's arc, but you have to read between the lines.

Then in Brienne's arc and the aSoS epilogue, we finally witness the BwB from a victim's POV, who are accused of being guilty by association, just as Sandor was, except this time LS actually is a valid witness. Just like Beric she gives them a trial first and then hangs them, but LS has far more background knowledge as a witness than Beric has. Thoros' lament to Brienne is quite frankly BS to me. The BwB always robbed from both the living as well as those they killed (no need to waste good steel or horses, etc). It's just that when his friend is dead, Thoros lost the lie he told himself all along. When Beric dead, the time to "pretend" is done.

And the only big shift I can see between Beric and LS is that Beric was apolitical (Wolves or Lions make no matter), while LS politices the already existing BwB cells in place to strike against her enemies.

While I dislike how the show had Gendry sold and linked to Melisandre as if she's a higher up of Thoros (I doubt Thoros would see her that way), the show did make clear back then that the BwB is not some merry band of outlaws with justice on their side, but just as compromized as they really are already in aSoS under Beric (but too many gloss over that subtextual point in the books). But the S6 "cameo" was pretty much overall crap, suddenly giving them a higher calling to face the enemy north, apparently not being much of a problem to the Freys and have Arya suddenly inserted into the revenge-on-the-Freys plot. Sure, the Riverlands become the Rivermess in the books, but the show makes a mess of the Rivermess there to streamline stuff into Arya's arc and make her this time jumping psycho killer, that we somehow have to combine with an Arya who feels sorry for Cersei (play Cersei).  :dunno:

 

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sure, the Riverlands become the Rivermess in the books, but the show makes a mess of the Rivermess there to streamline stuff into Arya's arc and make her this time jumping psycho killer, that we somehow have to combine with an Arya who feels sorry for Cersei (play Cersei).  :dunno:

 

Yes, I really hate what they are doing with Arya....it feels like if she was two different persons.

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All of this comparison just makes me want to read the books again. Perhaps GRRM has become so sadistic to his readers that he's playing a long-game meta-joke with a bad adaptation to tease us with while we await the next book. :D 

Allright, so pointing and laughing is my go-to reaction to the mess that the show has become. 

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On 20/4/2017 at 9:47 PM, Rhodan said:

Well,for one, I liked summing up the info, since I don´t own DVD´s /Blue Rays and don´t actively monitoring the interviews about GOT, I am not such masochist :-). And obviously, I like the suggestions about the writing proccess, that´s always entertaining to hear when the inferior product is concerned.

Totally second that!

@The Dragon Demands

I'm not buying any DVDs anymore (haven't since after S4), not going to lend it, and there's no way I'll listen for hours to them talking on episodes I do not want to rewatch at all. But I appreciate it enormously that you look up the various interviews, fact check and stomach their commentaries, and compile them and make a coherent proposal based on it. (I can't even stand listening to them in the inside the episodes).

Also I watched/listened to the RedTeamReview with Preston Jacobs podcast on youtube. One of them was about the S7 leaks, which I think I ought to get a mention here for everyone:

But your youtube video about stunt-casting Indira Varma was brought up by RedTeamReview to Preston in the podcast where they discuss the Dornish Master Plan, and Preston mentions he suspects that Ellaria may plan to stop Doran's Fire and Blood plan in more than just the speech we had towards the end. It's more towards the end of that podcast (called ep2: Dornish Master Plan)

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Oh yeah....RedTeamReview stumbled on my Dorne video and though it was pretty good; they talk about it a little at the end of Podcast 2, but they said they'd talk more at the end of Podcast 3 (Preston Jacobs hadn't seen it yet).

I finished recording "Why Jeyne Westerling was changed to Talisa", but need to edit it.  It's about an hour and a half long (NOTHING will be as long as Dorne was).

So heads up for that one....

Even today, major fansite leaders openly say "we have no idea why they did this".

....you know....*I* cannot risk getting my YouTube channel blocked, but an enterprising individual might want to rip the DVD audio for the commentary tracks on episodes 5.10 and 5.6.  But then that might not solve anything; some of you said you don't even want to listen to library copies for free.  Well I insist you do, at least a sound clip here or there, the bigger quotes I point out like "well we reconceived the role to show off the actor's talents" just to confirm "Dear god, they actually said this". 

(shrug) if nothing else, the Cogman commentary you need to listen to because the WAY he says things....can't be verbalized through text very well.  The way that he sounds uncertain, like he doesn't really believe what he's saying but is repeating talking points that D&D drilled into him, and he's repeating them and...desperately wants them to be true.  It sounds like he's trying to convince *himself*. 

Probably also going to make a short Stannis video.  Originally I wasn't because it overlaps with Jon and Sansa, but enough people asked for it, and the other videos are kind of long, so now I'll cut the Stannis parts in those down to like one slide, and put other stuff in a Stannis video which might only be like half an hour or less. 

@sweetsunray  Have you heard that Rhaenyra has an army?

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I also recently remembered probably the first example of bizzare writing, namely Jorah doubting existence of Aegon´s dragons back in season 1. I know this leads to some wanna-be witty lines and is probably meant to be sort of foreshadowing of his amazement in the finale, but it makes no sense in any version of story.     

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On 27/4/2017 at 5:28 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

Oh yeah....RedTeamReview stumbled on my Dorne video and though it was pretty good; they talk about it a little at the end of Podcast 2, but they said they'd talk more at the end of Podcast 3 (Preston Jacobs hadn't seen it yet).

I finished recording "Why Jeyne Westerling was changed to Talisa", but need to edit it.  It's about an hour and a half long (NOTHING will be as long as Dorne was).

So heads up for that one....

@sweetsunray  Have you heard that Rhaenyra has an army?

I just watched your part 1 about Jeyne-Talisa debacele. I'm already wondering whether they altered the writing to stunt-cast Oona, once they learned that Oona auditioned for the role. That it's an earlier sign of what they did "for" Indira Varma. There's also already the hint that Richard Madden was "popular", so they're talking about the actor rather than Robb. I do think it was a good idea of following Robb more in S2, and it's not as bad as Dorne, but a lot of it wasn't well thought out.

Here's my speculation (as your 2nd video isn't up yet):

If they originally intended to have it be Jeyne Westerling, then realisitically speaking, Jeyne couldn't have appeared in S2 until late in the second half of S2, at a castle setting and the news that Theon killed Bran and Rickon. She'd likely appear in no more than 1 episode, with Robb noticing her, and she falling for him or having a crush, nursing him because he's wounded and then the bad news arriving, and there's a love scene. This would match with the casting news of it being a small role.

But then Oona Chaplin auditions for the role, not even expecting to get it, maybe not even having actually accepted it, and D&D start to rewrite Robb's arc to insert Jeyne into it earlier, meet him in another way - expansion of nursing Robb's wound to being a battlefield nurse, so they can have more scenes between Robb and Jeyne. And they say yes to Oona for the role. Of course the battlefield nurse makes little sense (well in general, but the least as Jeyne Westerling). A mother of a minor noble house pushing her daughter to nurse this young unmarried, honorable, slightly wounded good looking man who just took their castle is in line with the setting. But there's no way they'd allow her to be a battlefield nurse.

George learns of this and protests that's not what Jeyne Westerling would do, nor her family would allow (especially with a social climber her mother is). So, they might have decided to make her a commoner. A commoner woman called Jeyne who helps out on the battlefield and has some herb knowledge, and the casting news comes out. But that is totally nonsensical for Robb. A new "no" from GRRM, so it becomes ok, let's make her a Jeyne from one of the Free Cities. She can still be a noble of one of the free cities, but Essos is so different that we can keep her this brazen woman nursing soldiers on the battlefield in Westeros, far away from home, and there's no family there to stop her from doing it. And because they're reading aDwD they choose Volantis. She becomes "Jeyne of Volantis". George demands the name change, and it becomes Talissa. ETA for the naysayers: George saying "no", because of the cited interview with George in 2012, and admitting he requested a name change, because the nurse of Volantis was a total different character than Jeyne Westerling.

It means they rewrote dialogue and scripts for Oona in July and August, a max 2 months ahead of filming schedule for Robb's arc. And the awkward "what's your name" dialogue might be some inside stab at what happened behind the screens.

I've seen it mentioned that Rhaenyra has an army. And I read it on a video comment of your too. What can I do to be in Rhaenyra's army ;)

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38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

.George learns of this and protests that's not what Jeyne Westerling would do, nor her family would allow (especially with a social climber her mother is). So, they might have decided to make her a commoner. A commoner woman called Jeyne who helps out on the battlefield and has some herb knowledge, and the casting news comes out. But that is totally nonsensical for Robb. A new "no" from GRRM, so it becomes ok, let's make her a Jeyne from one of the Free Cities. She can still be a noble of one of the free cities, but Essos is so different that we can keep her this brazen woman nursing soldiers on the battlefield in Westeros, far away from home, and there's no family there to stop her from doing it. And because they're reading aDwD they choose Volantis. She becomes "Jeyne of Volantis". George demands the name change, and it becomes Talissa.

:rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

:rolleyes:

I should have said that according the Cogman they were reading the 5th book at the time of writing S2. That would be more correct :) Although since Volantis appears in their favourite character POV I do not doubt they read that chapter ;)

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5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

I've seen it mentioned that Rhaenyra has an army. And I read it on a video comment of your too. What can I do to be in Rhaenyra's army ;)


Watch the panel video I did on "Why the Ramsay / Sansa rape happened". 

But I'm also making upcoming videos on that...building up to that.....



 

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20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I should have said that according the Cogman they were reading the 5th book at the time of writing S2. That would be more correct :) Although since Volantis appears in their favourite character POV I do not doubt they read that chapter ;)

Well, as showrunners, they read some chapters, indeed :) as for how many, that's unkown.

One thing is certain...they just creatively made the adaption more "sensible" filling the gaps.

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On 5/5/2017 at 5:33 AM, The Dragon Demands said:


Watch the panel video I did on "Why the Ramsay / Sansa rape happened". 

But I'm also making upcoming videos on that...building up to that.....

I watched the one hour video. So, basically you want us to use the sigil of Rhaenyra's Army on the internet and propose us to make "We reconceived ..." and "Look how strong ..." into memes, expose how they are writing scene to scene without any coherent or logical story to stunt-cast the actors to emote a scene.

ETA: just checked the GOT wikia and voted on the poll question with regards the prequels.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Now, that's some crazy shit. First looked into that spoilery stuff today, and, man, seriously, who is going to watch this crap?

 

Too many people refusing to leave the bandwagon, I ´m afraid.

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