Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, these people never wrote any particularly good dialogue on their own. They always drew on something from George, or something based on one of his characters. But all the lines they themselves wrote - the not-funny jokes, the weird word games, the ridiculous side stories, etc. - are just silly and make no sense.

We don't need the actors to confirm this on screen. It is obvious. Very much so. Just go back to seasons where there is still a good mixture between George's scenes and characters and newly invented stuff.

And it is even more glaring when you take them sort of going along with George's story but completely creating their own dialogue (like those awful lines Tyrion and Varys get during their journey to Daenerys). You simply cannot watch this.

It is not them not succeeding at adapting a complex story. It is them simply not being able to create coherent characters or write dialogue that makes sense. It is that sad.

@Lord Varys What's up bro ?!?

Been a while!

Yup I would have to agree with your statement here. They are bad bad bad writers, they had a wonderful story to go on and season 1,2 and half of 3 were awesome, but it's been a steady downhill/titanic sinking ever since then.

I will say that Season7 Ep 1 was better than all of season 5 and 6. but only because Arya said 'The North Remembers and Winter came to House Frey' after serving Arbor Gold (which was actually red wine) and Sandor digging a grave. And because Dany finally touched down in Westeros (she's been in Essos since 1996 after all) so it was cool to physically see that, even though it was lackluster and she/they were all wearing solid black (inexplicably).......but yeah mainly it was awful as usual.

 

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

@Lord Varys What's up bro ?!?

Been a while!

Yup I would have to agree with your statement here. They are bad bad bad writers, they had a wonderful story to go on and season 1,2 and half of 3 were awesome, but it's been a steady downhill/titanic sinking ever since then.

I will say that Season7 Ep 1 was better than all of season 5 and 6. but only because Arya said 'The North Remembers and Winter came to House Frey' after serving Arbor Gold (which was actually red wine) and Sandor digging a grave. And because Dany finally touched down in Westeros (she's been in Essos since 1996 after all) so it was cool to physically see that, even though it was lackluster and she/they were all wearing solid black (inexplicably).......but yeah mainly it was awful as usual.

 

They are capable on occasion of writing above average dialogue.  Like the introduction of the Red Viper was above average, the Bob/Cersei wine drinking convo from season 1 was above average, there are other examples.....  But, since their audience doesn't demand good dialogue, they don't spend the time anymore...they come up with what they think is a good line and then they're done.  I can't even believe 'shall we begin' as the ending which is cliche as fuck, is getting praise.  I mean, okay it was a pretty sequence....but still cliche as fuck.  Dany walks through Dragonstone, touching things with her stormborn stare on and no dialogue.  Gee.  What person who has seen more than 20 movies couldn't have thought that one up?  LOL.  

[Lady Fevre Dream]

28 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

@Lord Varys What's up bro ?!?

Been a while!

Yup I would have to agree with your statement here. They are bad bad bad writers, they had a wonderful story to go on and season 1,2 and half of 3 were awesome, but it's been a steady downhill/titanic sinking ever since then.

I will say that Season7 Ep 1 was better than all of season 5 and 6. but only because Arya said 'The North Remembers and Winter came to House Frey' after serving Arbor Gold (which was actually red wine) and Sandor digging a grave. And because Dany finally touched down in Westeros (she's been in Essos since 1996 after all) so it was cool to physically see that, even though it was lackluster and she/they were all wearing solid black (inexplicably).......but yeah mainly it was awful as usual.

 

LOL  I love your description and HI!!  I agree, you've singled out some of the best, even though it pains me to have Arya playing LS, and they must do this shit on purpose:  The Ruby Red Arbor Gold.  JMJ and Seven Save Me and May The Others Take Them.  It must be on purpose. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, they did.

NCW: I guess I can be a pain in the butt. I have suggestions like an annoying actor and I have questions. I’ve just sensed this last season that this is their baby: 'Just say the words as they’re written, and shut up.'

http://time.com/4773892/game-of-thrones-jaime-lannister-nikolaj-coster-waldau/

Awww, Poor Nik.  Those pics show how sad he seems, too.  And, I do appreciate him trying to get Jaime to peek out from behind Larry the Lunkhead's gaze. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

You can also see, reading the article, Nik can tell that the Jaime of the first few seasons does not equal the one we've seen lately.  His discussion and questioning seems to ask:  Um, when do I play Jaime again? 

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

completely agree with every word of this!

Sandra Bolton is so bad, like sooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad. Her character, her acting, her costume, her lines, her delivery, her purpose is all extremely fucking stupid.

I assume its the dragon horn, D&D were like, 'oh shit, we've left that out up til now and we have no other writing from GRRM to go on, so lets back up into Book 4/5 and use more of his material, cuz obviously we have zero good ideas of our own'.

Euron the black leather wearing punk rocker and Carol plan on stealing a dragon is the only 'gift' I can think of.

And I thought it was hilarious that Euron openly mocked Larry and Carol in front of them "I have 2 good hands' i mean he was basically saying, in front of everyone, that Carol should stop banging her brother and bang Euron instead. 

and how the fuck does everyone in Westeros know everything else that's going on? how did larry and Carol know that Dany was on her way, but somehow Larry did not know that the IronBorn were on their way? Does Dany still have a spy in her midst? do they have the fucking internet? like how can D&D justify this mess?

Some of them read the spoilers on reddit

[Lord Varys]

51 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

They are capable on occasion of writing above average dialogue.  Like the introduction of the Red Viper was above average, the Bob/Cersei wine drinking convo from season 1 was above average, there are other examples.....

There are some good pieces of original dialogue in season 1, but they are drawing from George's characters, there. Cersei-Robert is partially pretty good (aside from Cersei actually being in love with Robert, of course) and I find Jaime-Tywin also introduces them pretty well, although Tywin the Huntsman isn't something Tywin would do.

But as early as season 2 you get ridiculous childish dialogue like the entire Qarth storyline. I actually rewatched season 2 a couple of years back and I was flabbergasted by how bad this is. There is no story there, and this Xaro guy constantly tells us again and again that he is a self-made man. It is literally all that he does. 

51 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

But, since their audience doesn't demand good dialogue, they don't spend the time anymore...they come up with what they think is a good line and then they're done.  I can't even believe 'shall we begin' as the ending which is cliche as fuck, is getting praise.  I mean, okay it was a pretty sequence....but still cliche as fuck.  Dany walks through Dragonstone, touching things with her stormborn stare on and no dialogue.  Gee.  What person who has seen more than 20 movies couldn't have thought that one up?  LOL.  

This kind of symbolizes that they really just want to get this over with. Whenever they can they use montages without dialogue, long silent scenes (remember all that chair-shuffling in the council chamber?), or blow remnants from George's books up to ridiculous proportions (the entire play scene from last season, or the fucking High Sparrow being the big enemy for two entire seasons giving us the same lines again and again without them getting to the fucking trial-by-combat!)

There was a time when scenes in the council actually had content, and they were having sort of ensemble scenes. Back in season 1, early on in season 2, but from then on it is always this weird and fractured two-people-talking-scenes.

We get this again with the gang at Winterfell. Sansa talks to Jon. Sansa talks to Brienne. Sansa talks to Littlefinger. But Jon doesn't talk to Brienne, Littlefinger doesn't talk to Jon, etc. Those could be great ensemble scenes if they were actually telling a story and were not just killing time.

[Cas Stark]

True, there has always been very bad, silly, childish dialogue.

I'm in the minority on season 2, I thought it had a lot of good stuff in it, Dany's story aside, which wasn't really that bad.  All of Arya's stuff was good, the KL stuff was good.  The Robb/Cat stuff was mostly good.

I also liked the musical chairs sequence, that was well done.

Everything having to do with Winterfell since Sansa got there is a pit of plot holes and makes no sense no matter how much someone tries to connect the dots.  It's a clusterfuck of stupidity from beginning to end, and even now it still is.  Where in the hell is Jon thinking he's going to mine dragonglass?  It's just spouting some lines to be connected to Dragonstone later on, even though he already should know about the dragonstone dragonglass from Stannis.  Why in the hell is no one talking about Bran?  For fuck's sake, he's known for 2 or 3 seasons now that his brother is alive and Sansa has known also.  And an entire scene to give the pintsize badass some meaningless lines for fan service?  Ugh.

I agree, the play was an unbelievable amount of energy put toward something stupid, but I quit watching last year after they killed Summer other than the sept blow up/finale.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

True, there has always been very bad, silly, childish dialogue.

I'm in the minority on season 2, I thought it had a lot of good stuff in it, Dany's story aside, which wasn't really that bad.  All of Arya's stuff was good, the KL stuff was good.  The Robb/Cat stuff was mostly good.

Some of the KL scenes were decent in season 2. The Tyrion-Varys-Pycelle-Littlefinger montage. The talk with Lancel. Some scenes involving Shae. But that ridiculous scene with Littlefinger and Cersei was nonsense even back then.

And Arya-Tywin may have been decent acting but it, too, was repetitive and pointless. It led nowhere, especially with Littlefinger being there.

Dany's story was complete nonsense, it is basically the same as the 'the Lannisters are broke' story. You cannot fake wealth in a medieval setting, and the entire betrayal-and-dragons-stealing-plot just made no sense. It was unmotivated and a cheap way to shock the audience. The kind of thing they do now exclusively.

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Everything having to do with Winterfell since Sansa got there is a pit of plot holes and makes no sense no matter how much someone tries to connect the dots.  It's a clusterfuck of stupidity from beginning to end, and even now it still is.  Where in the hell is Jon thinking he's going to mine dragonglass?  It's just spouting some lines to be connected to Dragonstone later on, even though he already should know about the dragonstone dragonglass from Stannis.  Why in the hell is no one talking about Bran?  For fuck's sake, he's known for 2 or 3 seasons now that his brother is alive and Sansa has known also.  And an entire scene to give the pintsize badass some meaningless lines for fan service?  Ugh.

Why should they talk about Bran? It is not part of the plot right now ;-).

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree, the play was an unbelievable amount of energy put toward something stupid, but I quit watching last year after they killed Summer other than the sept blow up/finale.

Well, I binge-watched the whole thing last year as some sort of masochistic episode. It is really strange how detached you can become from this thing. I really liked the first season, and really wanted to like the later ones, but seasons 3-4 really ended any interest in the whole thing. Once you no longer see it as this ASoIaF adaptation thing the bad writing and the plot holes really strike home.

[The Bear Who Knocks]

this is fake or clickbait right?
http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2017/07/game-of-thrones-season-7-poop-scene-took-50-to-60-hours-to-shoot

[Error-504]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItsPopularNowItSucks

[Gaz0680]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Well, I binge-watched the whole thing last year as some sort of masochistic episode. It is really strange how detached you can become from this thing. I really liked the first season, and really wanted to like the later ones, but seasons 3-4 really ended any interest in the whole thing. Once you no longer see it as this ASoIaF adaptation thing the bad writing and the plot holes really strike home.

That's surprising seasons 3-4 ended your interest, since most regard those as the best two seasons of the show.

I think Season 3 was excellent (and I believe Ep 5 Kissed by Fire is one of the best written and highest quality episodes from start to finish the show has ever done, even though it didn't have any huge shock or awe moments). 

I had some issues with season 4 personally and felt that's where the rot started, but thought it was still decent quality television. Season 5 was a disaster and season 6 really wasn't any better.

Characterisation is one thing that while not perfect was done much better in the early seasons compared to season 4 onwards The Hound may be the only exception to this as they have done some good work with him in season 6 and first Ep of season 7.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Short Claw said:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItsPopularNowItSucks

Oh, come on, the books are popular, too. That doesn't make them suck.

9 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

That's surprising seasons 3-4 ended your interest, since most regard those as the best two seasons of the show.

Aren't that the seasons that drag on the plot of ASoS through two season, invent a lot of ridiculous side plots like the Talisa love story (beginning in season 2), the action hero Jon not coming to the rescue of Bran, and add a ton of bad dialogue to the whole thing - Grey Worm-Missandei, Sam-Gilly, etc.? Not to speak of a lot of fucked-up characterizations like Catelyn regretting that she could never love poor Jon? Or the whole Ygritte thing. A proper planner would have foreseen that they had two fucking seasons for Jon and Ygritte, they had no reason to botch the Jon-Qhorin bonding thing, including the cinematic finale with the hero getting the command to go undercover and prove his loyalty by killing his mentor. You could have filmed that basically as it was in the book. But no, they had botch that whole thing.

Oh, and honestly, can you watch all those stupid Theon-Ramsay scenes, including the great rescue attempt thing. I mean, once you have seen all that stuff once it is boring as hell. For a non-book reader (and even a book reader) it is interesting during the first watch because you don't know what's happening and you want to find out how they playing this. But this drags on for so long and there is simply no point to keep the identity of the guy a secret or play out this kind of charade for as long as they did.

9 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

I think Season 3 was excellent (and I believe Ep 5 Kissed by Fire is one of the best written and highest quality episodes from start to finish the show has ever done, even though it didn't have any huge shock or awe moments).

The fact that there are still some interesting episodes in there which capture the spirit of the books makes things actually worse. You feel torn between liking and hating the whole thing. What broke it for me was the 'the Lannisters are broke' story. I simply couldn't take that. It was just silly.

9 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

I had some issues with season 4 personally and felt that's where the rot started, but thought it was still decent quality television. Season 5 was a disaster and season 6 really wasn't any better.

Well, I'd have to go back and actually re-watch some of that stuff again but I don't judge this whole thing by the criteria of 'quality television'. The production values are certainly pretty good but the writing just sucks. It wasn't that hard to work with the material when they were sticking to it more or less, but once they fancied their own ideas, liking to pair this or that actor or make more scenes of this or that type, never mind whether this is serving the story or not everything simply went to hell.

And that's a pity because the budget and number of episodes really should have enabled them to adapt ASoIaF is a very good way. Sure, they would have to cut things, shuffle things around, even give certain elements to other characters. But they could have done a marvelous, if slightly changed/shortened adaptation of the entire thing. But for that you have to have both the willingness to do that as well as a plan. If you take a season per book it is not that difficult to make a proper outline. You can plan things. Sure, it is dependent on renewal, the budget, and all but they had a structure there since the very beginning. The fact that they didn't know where they wanted to go is pretty obvious by the completely incoherent portrayal of Jaime from season 4 onwards.

9 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Characterisation is one thing that while not perfect was done much better in the early seasons compared to season 4 onwards The Hound may be the only exception to this as they have done some good work with him in season 6 and first Ep of season 7.

Not sure about Sandor. I honestly don't care about this version of the guy. I doubt the man in the books will go down the road he took in the show, most notably since Beric Dondarrion is dead there. George is likely to reinvent Sandor as a future member of the Warrior's Sons. He has found peace - and perhaps even the Seven - on the Quiet Isle, and once the news about his undead monstrous Kingsguard brother reaches him he might decide that it is a duty to do something about that. He could become a knight after all.

George gave them so many great characters to work with and what do they. They reduce Littlefinger to a moronic comic book villain with a teleportation device. Tyrion - an ugly dwarf with great problems with his self-image - becomes a nice hero who constantly entertains everybody with his stupid word games that simply make no sense. Cersei - a fiery and hot-tempered woman in the books - is re-imagined and played as a completely different character.

Those characters have so much potential for conflict because they all have bad aspects to them, and many of them commit atrocities or do at least questionable things. There is pretty much nothing left of those aspects now, but this began as early as the first season when they forbid Tyrion to rape Tysha. Or when they had to have Ned as this big super fighter guy because, you know, that's what the hero should be.

Really great cinema/television of our age creates such complex characters. You don't want easy black-and-white when you are watching stuff like Dexter, Hannibal, etc. But GoT has now become a series with clearly defined 'good' and 'evil' characters. That is perhaps the worst thing they do the books, they simplify and trivialize everything when they had had the chance to make it actually as complex and multi-layered as the books. They had the time for the dialogue to establish all the complexity. They just don't want to do that.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I binge-watched the whole thing last year as some sort of masochistic episode. It is really strange how detached you can become from this thing. I really liked the first season, and really wanted to like the later ones, but seasons 3-4 really ended any interest in the whole thing. Once you no longer see it as this ASoIaF adaptation thing the bad writing and the plot holes really strike home.

LOL! I thought I was the only one.  The Hodor scene in particular.  The back door down a sinkhole turns out to be a door on hinges, like any old door.   Really, I'm not missing anything that I can't buy on DVD two years from now.  

Euron .... my god!  I want steak and lobster, not the cheesy hotdog.  I want the kraken, not the lounge lizard. Two hands and a thousand ships? So what.

If they are writing for the 'actor's strengths'; what happened to Peter Dinklage? 

[SerProle]

I only just discovered that Rachel Handler isn't doing episode reviews for mtv news this season, such a bummer. If anybody didn't read her last season, go back and enjoy. 

Is there any mainstream writer who will cover this season in a way that won't make many of us gag? Or has everyone sold out already, seasons ago? I hope people will link to anything written doing some good analysis of what is actually good and bad with each episode, and not just more D&D slobberworship. Since this first episode actually had both good and bad, I'd like to find a critic I can trust based on this first episode as we move forward, someone to send to friends who won't read rants here but might read a 'real' critic lol. 

For anyone with a strong stomach, there is a very funny poop theory over in the ASOIAF reddit in the PJ episode review thread, bringing in Gilly's baby, Sam's time warping abilities, the poop montage, and the endgame. Its long and written in classic theorist style, you'll know it when you see it lol.

[SerProle]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Really great cinema/television of our age creates such complex characters. You don't want easy black-and-white when you are watching stuff like Dexter, Hannibal, etc. But GoT has now become a series with clearly defined 'good' and 'evil' characters. That is perhaps the worst thing they do the books, they simplify and trivialize everything when they had had the chance to make it actually as complex and multi-layered as the books. They had the time for the dialogue to establish all the complexity. They just don't want to do that.

The way all the remaining chosen D&D characters are grouping up according to the leaks seems so very good guys vs bad guys. Except, its more like everyone important is a badass on both sides (and both genders), with some lame 'advisor' types also on both sides. Really hard to tell the difference between the teams. The only potentially interesting team is still Team Night King, I wonder if we will learn more about them.

I guess with badasses being pretty much all the major characters now, no real need for dialogue and complexity, just badass posing. And I suppose with cock jokers on both sides too, there really isn't much writing to be done except for the pesky minor characters that aren't killed off yet. D&D have got quite the scam going, getting paid for so very little writing lol.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

George gave them so many great characters to work with and what do they. They reduce Littlefinger to a moronic comic book villain with a teleportation device. Tyrion - an ugly dwarf with great problems with his self-image - becomes a nice hero who constantly entertains everybody with his stupid word games that simply make no sense. Cersei - a fiery and hot-tempered woman in the books - is re-imagined and played as a completely different character.

Those characters have so much potential for conflict because they all have bad aspects to them, and many of them commit atrocities or do at least questionable things. There is pretty much nothing left of those aspects now, but this began as early as the first season when they forbid Tyrion to rape Tysha. Or when they had to have Ned as this big super fighter guy because, you know, that's what the hero should be.

Really great cinema/television of our age creates such complex characters. You don't want easy black-and-white when you are watching stuff like Dexter, Hannibal, etc. But GoT has now become a series with clearly defined 'good' and 'evil' characters. That is perhaps the worst thing they do the books, they simplify and trivialize everything when they had had the chance to make it actually as complex and multi-layered as the books. They had the time for the dialogue to establish all the complexity. They just don't want to do that.

In the books, characters are on different sides of the conflict and you feel for them all so much you can't help but root for all of them.

On the show, espeically since season 4, characters are on different sides of the conflict and you dislike all of them so much you can't help but wish failure on all sides.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

On 7/14/2017 at 11:46 PM, Shadow of Asshai said:

and also, why kinslaying became so trivial in Westeros? It used to be a big deal, a monstruous crime, now it is common, nobody cares if you are a kinslayer, it seems it is normal to kill your brother, your father, your uncle or whatever.

Its only evil when Stannis does it

[Rhodan]

Well, kinda off-topic, but D+D have another project, I will probably not watch how much they will screw this one:

  http://collider.com/db-weiss-david-benioff-new-series-confederate-hbo/

EDIT: My first sig is actually very relevant now!

[Rhollo]

1 hour ago, Rhodan said:

Well, kinda off-topic, but D+D have another project, I will probably not watch how much they will screw this one:

  http://collider.com/db-weiss-david-benioff-new-series-confederate-hbo/

D&D tackling the topic of slavery 

"The indentured servitude became consensual"