Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

The show gets worse and twow will never come.  The long night will last forever.

The fault is not principally with hbo and d&d, however.  It is with martin himself.  

He sold the rights.  He created the golem.  He got rich from it. He said twow would be out 2 years ago. 

And, what is worse, it is he who keeps signing up for a million other projects.

LOL, no. I'm that guy. If I were George, and if I was his age, and had lived his life I'd enjoy my retirement, giving you all heartily felt FUCK YOU. But George is actually a nice guy (I'm not). He continues writing the series. He isn't obligated to do that. He has earned his retirement. But, you know, that story should mean much more to him than to you or me. He is the author, after all.

The show is as bad as it is because the people writing it cannot write. If they could, they would have created consistent characters, reasonably good dialogue, and a coherent story. It doesn't have to be George's story as he imagines it, and it could be a story cutting half or more of the secondary characters and plot lines. It could even be a story rushing to the end.

But the travesty we have has nothing of that. Nothing at all. It basically began as Arthur Dayne (sort of) and deliberately became the Smiling Knight. Once they ran out of dialogue from George they could draw on this whole thing became basically unwatchable.

[Booknerd2]

I only saw the episode once. It's happened before. Some impressions will stay the same, but with time and a rewatch, there may be some things I ranted about on the episode thread that night and I'll be able to see from a different perspective.

As of today I feel that Big Nyms might have pulled a David Banner on Arya. Old school David Banner. Cue the music above. The slow turn and leaving was a downer. And before that, it was the day the growls died.

But Arya was also left with a parting gift. They left her horse alone too. I am sure there was a least one pack member that turned again to look at the horse.

Wolf Extra #6: Boss, come on, just a small bite...

Big Nyms: I said no. She needs the horse.

Wolf Extra #6: Oh, come on...ok, ok, fine.

Gendry, let's make that Show Gendry, said he couldn't be her family. Or be what she thought. Big Nyms can no longer be her pet. She doesn't roll that way anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kg1982]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. I'm that guy. If I were George, and if I was his age, and had lived his life I'd enjoy my retirement, giving you all heartily felt FUCK YOU. But George is actually a nice guy (I'm not). He continues writing the series. He isn't obligated to do that. He has earned his retirement. But, you know, that story should mean much more to him than to you or me. He is the author, after all.

The show is as bad as it is because the people writing it cannot write. If they could, they would have created consistent characters, reasonably good dialogue, and a coherent story. It doesn't have to be George's story as he imagines it, and it could be a story cutting half or more of the secondary characters and plot lines. It could even be a story rushing to the end.

But the travesty we have has nothing of that. Nothing at all. It basically began as Arthur Dayne (sort of) and deliberately became the Smiling Knight. Once they ran out of dialogue from George they could draw on this whole thing became basically unwatchable.

Martin has had six years to write one book.  Six years...  One book.  So yes, he has sold out.

[Lord Varys]

45 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

Martin has had six years to write one book.  Six years...  One book.  So yes, he has sold out.

He is a slow writer. How many novels has he written throughout his career? Not that many. And this series is not exactly easy to write. People who think he could write a book the size and scope of TWoW in just a few years are just morons. It is pretty obvious that this would be a much more complicated book than AFfC/ADwD. It is going to deal with all the plots and characters at the same time. 

But, sure, being successful and growing rich is also going to change your life. He would be a complete and utter moron if he chained himself to his desk all the time if he had finally the money to do what he wanted to do. But he still continues to work on the whole thing. But it is clearly not that easy.

[kg1982]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He is a slow writer. How many novels has he written throughout his career? Not that many. And this series is not exactly easy to write. People who think he could write a book the size and scope of TWoW in just a few years are just morons. It is pretty obvious that this would be a much more complicated book than AFfC/ADwD. It is going to deal with all the plots and characters at the same time. 

But, sure, being successful and growing rich is also going to change your life. He would be a complete and utter moron if he chained himself to his desk all the time if he had finally the money to do what he wanted to do. But he still continues to work on the whole thing. But it is clearly not that easy.

Yeah.  He is never going to finish.  He seems uninterested in doing so.

And he should have at least given the show a complete outline in the beginning so these things could be better plotted out.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

1 hour ago, kg1982 said:

Yeah.  He is never going to finish.  He seems uninterested in doing so.

And he should have at least given the show a complete outline in the beginning so these things could be better plotted out.

LOL  You say that like the D's really care about things being better plotted out.  These are the creators of The Craster's Keep Rapefest of Boredom, the same people who thought Ellaria should revenge her beloved Oberyn Martell (who tried to avenge his sister and niece and nephew) by killing..........the last living Martells.  That's two pieces of stupid off the top of my head, these guys are not concerned with better plotting.  If in doubt, check out my Benioff quote.  That's how he plots things out.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:19 AM, Steelborn said:

Reek, it rhymes with fuck you HBO.

read this during a meeting at work, almost LOL'd bigtime

On 7/24/2017 at 8:27 AM, Dolorous Gabe said:

Yeah that was a terrible episode. The writing was woeful. Nearly the whole episode was expository, with everyone explaining what's happening and what their intentions are.

Varys has been in Dany's story for ages and this appears to be the first time they have spoken. If she was really concerned about his loyalty, surely she'd have spoken to him before now. Also, if Ellaria and Olenna were going to meet Dany at Dragonstone anyway, why did Varys not just travel with them instead of teleporting from Dorne aboard the ship heading from Essos to DS? That was really badly thought out!

The scene with Yara, Theon and Ellaria preceding the battle at sea was horrendous! What were they thinking? It actually made me side with Euron! Also, why in the world did they not have people on lookout? You shouldn't be taken so by surprise at sea.

What I like is how D&D were like, 'Well we dont have any more work from Martin to destroy, so who can we steal ideas from now???? Oh I know, Tolkien killed Smaug with a giant crossbow, lets do that.'

On 7/24/2017 at 9:43 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

It should be that once the Lannister Army moves anywhere out in the open, the Dragons are Death from Above. Game over. Very Easy. Same with Euron's Fleet. Look what she did to The Free Cities Fleet. They surrendered rather quickly.

I thought the dragons were attacking when all those fireballs were raining down, they never showed any catapults or anything coming from Euron's fleet so it made no sense.

[Tijgy]

This article explains very good one of the reasons I dislike the show: 

Quote

Game of Thrones is ripe with undeniably cool, badass women. Cersei blew up thousands of her citizens without a second thought. Brienne took on the Hound in single combat, and won. Daenarys has freed whole cities, acquired three dragons, and gained the Dothraki army by burning the other Khals to death. Arya murdered the entire Frey house in one sweep. If not in the real world, women are largely in charge in Game of Thrones. But how they got to power exemplifies a brand of feminism that still largely emphasizes and values traditional masculinity. In this way, Game of Thrones' Season 7 feminism is only for one kind of woman.

That singularity is frustrating, especially when its lauded by fans and critics alike. Entertainment Weekly ran a cover series last year that triumphantly pronounced Season 6 as "Dame of Thrones," a celebration of power finally being firmly planted in the hands of the show's most prominent women. This remains largely true as we begin Season 7. Cersei sits on the Iron Throne, a result that seemed an inevitability since Season 1. Daenarys has returned home at the head of a formidable army. Arya is steadily enacting gory revenge on her enemies. Sansa is reestablished with her brother at Winterfell, with loyal soldier Brienne at her side. Prior to Sunday's episode, Ellaria Sand and her terrifying daughters controlled Dorne, while Yara Greyjoy commanded a massive fleet. With the exception of Jon Snow, it is these women alone who are poised to win the great game.

But what makes these women the "badasses" fans admire so much? What each of these women have in common, what binds them together perhaps even more than their shared gender, what makes them cool, is their penchant and tolerance for a certain amount of brutality. Whether their cruelty is seemingly justified (Arya, Brienne) or solely for personal gain (Cersei, Ellaria), whether they physically engage in this violence themselves (again, Arya and Brienne) or merely commission others to do it for them (Cersei, Dany, Sansa), these women aren't afraid to raze, torture, manipulate, and murder in order to achieve their goals. So while many fans cheered watching Arya poison the entire Frey familyin the Season 7 premiere, I gave pause.

It's not wrong to call this display of the range of female brutality feminist, in it's own way. There is real value in demonstrating that women can be as physically strong as the Hound, as cruel as the Mad King, as capable of commanding armies as Jon Snow, and as willing to dispatch their enemies to rise to the top as Stannis. Mainly, depicting women as such combats the age-old stereotype of the "weaker sex," which wrongly suggests that women should stay out of messy politics, are inherently more moral than men, and don't have the constitutions or the penchant for violence that men do. Heck, even the fact that so many women watch Game of Thrones debunks that notion.

But part of the reason these women are so awesome and feel so fresh is that they embody traditional masculinity — it's only novel because these traits are possessed by a woman. Physical strength, bravery, eagerness to fight, brutality— these are all traits typically considered to be "masculine," and all traits the remaining women of Westeros posses in spades (and that real life women also do, if only society would just acknowledge that). When Cersei blows up the Sept, or Arya feeds Walder Frey his sons in a pie and slits his throat, the message is, "Look, women can be as brutal and violent as men," not necessarily that women with traditionally "feminine" traits are equally cool or capable.

In fact, most of these "feminine" women end up dead in the GoT world. Maergary Tyrell was probably the best example, a woman who used her sexuality and emotional intelligence to manipulate her way to the throne. Yet in the end she is bested by Cersei, who out-maneuvers her with her cruel imagination, and Maergary and the most of the Tyrells disappear in a puff of green smoke. Catelyn Stark was beloved, but let her emotions get the best of her when she let Jaime go, hoping to exchange him for Sansa and Arya. So, when she also winds up dead, it's not really all that surprising that her motherly nature wasn't looked kindly upon by the GoT writers.

So when we cheer every time Khaleesi burns some more guys with her dragons or Arya checks a name off her list, we're really celebrating a woman just as masculine as her enemies. When we we secretly think Cersei is kinda awesome, it's because it's refreshing to see a woman as cruel as the male villains we're used to. Watching Brienne slice down Bolton soldiers and toss Podrick around like a rag doll is so fun because we aren't used to seeing a woman who can fight like a man on screen. I don't wish to minimize the significance of this. But the reason these women are cool is because they are like men, because they aren't "like most girls." But, having feminine traits should be celebrated, too.

But after years of enduring abuse from all sides, and seeing firsthand that kindness, mercy, and empathy ("feminine" traits) often result in a bloody and unforgiving death, Sansa has wised up. She tells Jon she's learned a lot from Cersei, and warns him not to make the mistakes of Ned and Robb. She's become hardened — the great game, and Game of Thrones, will likely reward her for it.

To succeed in Westeros, it appears that these women have to adapt to a society that values strength and necessary brutality in their leaders. But this adaptation forces them to shed much of their femininity in the process. I'm happy to see a show insist that "masculine" traits aren't for men only, but Game of Thrones has left no room to celebrate femininity. So when we call the GoT women "badass," we should pause to think about what it is exactly that we're celebrating. 

Source: https://www.bustle.com/p/game-of-thrones-season-7-is-feminist-but-only-for-one-kind-of-woman-70659

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Can we all agree that given how D&D are all about giving the fans what they want this is how it will play about with Jon and Dany; 

1. HE gets there and she is mean, they hate each other

2. They have dinner, (Dany will not wear her Bavmorda Battle Gown......remember in the books when Dany always cared about what she was wearing, and always hated uncomfortable unnecessary clothes?) start the dinner off hating each other and bitching back and forth, by the end of dinner there is massive sexual tension

3. Get naked.

[Queen of Procrastination]

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

This article explains very good one of the reasons I dislike the show: 

Source: https://www.bustle.com/p/game-of-thrones-season-7-is-feminist-but-only-for-one-kind-of-woman-70659

Thank you for the article. I agree with a lot it in it.

Speaking of articles that criticise GoT. Here is another one by the Guardian where the writer agrees that the show is basically 'tits and dragons': https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jul/24/when-good-tv-goes-bad-game-of-thrones?CMP=fb_gu

Quote

When did this good TV turn bad for me? It was around the time some sex worker glumly pleasured a hard-faced descendant of some decadent ancient king for the umpteenth time. I was getting tired of being implicated in that exploitative scenario week after week. Or when Dany emerged naked from the fire, a CGI dragon landed on her shoulder, and looked off into the middle distance towards Westeros, where she would fulfil her manifest destiny. Or when yet another British thesp slummed into shot (Stephen Dillane, I’ve seen you in Beckett; you’re better than this!).

It’s hard to be precise. It took me a while to realise how right Ian McShane was when he described Game of Thrones as “only tits and dragons”, by which he meant, surely, formulaic hokum that degrades its viewers by commodifying women’s bodies, making entertainment out of sexual torture and pimping up its spectacles.

 

[Le Cygne]

5 hours ago, Tijgy said:

This article explains very good one of the reasons I dislike the show: 

Source: https://www.bustle.com/p/game-of-thrones-season-7-is-feminist-but-only-for-one-kind-of-woman-70659

Those dreary fug alien military uniforms with chains strewn about, like not one female character on the show ever woke up and thought, I'd love to wear a pretty dress today. Or put some flowers in a vase on the table or just feel tenderness for a man without disrobing for the camera and/or sexually manipulating him. Likewise, the men cannot embrace similar things. Everyone has to be hard as nails, and power is all that matters. What an empty world they have created.

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

Thank you for the article. I agree with a lot it in it.

Speaking of articles that criticise GoT. Here is another one by the Guardian where the writer agrees that the show is basically 'tits and dragons': https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jul/24/when-good-tv-goes-bad-game-of-thrones?CMP=fb_gu

Nice article, too. The characters are just stick figures doing improbable and increasingly dull and dreary nothings. The rare moments when one of them does something viewers can relate to (like the Sandor scenes) everyone responds, because it's one of the few times anyone on the show seems human. It gets to the point where trying to figure out why they are doing bizarre things (the show rarely gives reasons) is not worth the trouble, who cares about them anyway. Political power is not all there is to life.

[Le Cygne]

On 7/23/2017 at 7:23 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

The more I see of this show, the more I read of the D's wonderful ideas, the more I am reminded of Space Balls and can hear Rick Moranis as Darth Helmet saying:  Good is Dumb!!  I really do think, sometimes, that is the exact theme the D;s are going with and, unfortunately, they are not anywhere near as funny as Mel Brooks.  Ughhhhhh

Oh, this is perfect! The theme, and no, not anywhere near as funny as Mel Brooks. Another thing largely missing from the show, humor.

[kg1982]

4 hours ago, Tijgy said:

This article explains very good one of the reasons I dislike the show: 

Source: https://www.bustle.com/p/game-of-thrones-season-7-is-feminist-but-only-for-one-kind-of-woman-70659

The article adheres to the gender norms set up by the patriarchy.  Women are genetically nurturing and kind and men are tough and martial.  This all is basic complementarian 101 crap, which is used to tell women to get back into the kitchen and birth babies and make sammiches.  Why a secular newspaper would embrace the stereotypes is beyond me?

People should be allowed to be who they are.  One caveat is that there is a difference between Margaery and manipulating her way to power and some submissive homemaker who is willing to pop out babies and do housework like this is Gilead or something.

[Tijgy]

And what is wrong with choosing for staying at home and taking care for the children? People should indeed be able to chose who they are. And no matter, if they are woman or man, they should also be able to chose for such life. It is only a problem if they are forced to make such choice. 

The article actually even says GOT does show one side of feminism: the fact that women can also have the traditional masculine traits. And it actually does celebrate them. 

The issue with GOT is that it doesn't celebrate women or men with traditional feminine traits, like empathy, motherhood, ... things I actually admire much more than blood and destruction.  

[Le Cygne]

1 minute ago, Tijgy said:

And what is wrong with choosing for staying at home and taking care for the children? People should indeed be able to chose who they are. And no matter, if they are woman or man, they should also be able to chose for such life. It is only a problem if they are forced to make a choice. 

The article actually even says GOT does show one side of feminism: the fact that also women can have the traditional masculine traits. And it actually does celebrate them. 

The issue with GOT is that it doesn't celebrate women or men with traditional feminine traits, like empathy, motherhood, ... things I actually admire much more than blood and destruction.  

Amen. The show has a very narrow vision that it imposes on the characters. Basically that of the showrunners, who can't seem to see beyond their own viewpoints.

[kg1982]

16 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

And what is wrong with choosing for staying at home and taking care for the children? People should indeed be able to chose who they are. And no matter, if they are woman or man, they should also be able to chose for such life. It is only a problem if they are forced to make such choice. 

The article actually even says GOT does show one side of feminism: the fact that women can also have the traditional masculine traits. And it actually does celebrate them. 

The issue with GOT is that it doesn't celebrate women or men with traditional feminine traits, like empathy, motherhood, ... things I actually admire much more than blood and destruction.  

It is wrong because women are forced into that role and the women who take it disparage other women who refuse.  Traditional women are then used to point out that the uppity and evil feminists are preventing all women from their destiny as housewives.  

And sheesh, it is a martial show.  This is like whining that they are discussing War on Band of Brothers.  There are many shows that do not do this.  They West Wing if you are looking for a nice, passionate, liberal view of ruling.

[Tijgy]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Amen. The show has a very narrow vision that it imposes on the characters. Basically that of the showrunners, who can't seem to see beyond their own viewpoints.

This showed really in season 7, episode 1 when Lyanna all went: "I won't be knitting by the fire while all men fight for me." Knitting could also be very important, especially during winter time! Again traditional men traits are celebrated (fighting) while traditional female traits are downplayed. 

And I actually really dislike to hear a Mormont Lady say this. They are just the example  in the books that both male and female traits could get hand in hand: the woman in a bear skin on the gate with a child chucking in one hand and a battleaxe in the other, Dacey being one of Robb's guards and being a graceful dancer at the same time, Aly being a commander and a mother at the same time, ... They show to defend your people and to take of your children are of equal importance. 

And I miss this, the celebration of both sides, in the show. 

[Le Cygne]

3 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

This showed really in season 7, episode 1 when Lyanna all went: "I won't be knitting by the fire while all men fight for me." Knitting could also be very important, especially during winter time! Again traditional men traits are celebrated (fighting) while traditional female traits are downplayed. 

And I actually really dislike to hear a Mormont Lady say this. They are just the example  in the books that both male and female traits could get hand in hand: the woman in a bear skin on the gate with a child chucking in one hand and a battleaxe in the other, Dacey being one of Robb's guards and being a graceful dancer at the same time, Aly being a commander and a mother at the same time, ... They show to defend your people and to take of your children are of equal importance. 

And I miss this, the celebration of both sides, in the show. 

Yeah, they just don't seem to know how to do that realism thing very well, these are not fully dimensional characters in any way shape or form. If they'd even spoof themselves it would help, anything to break up the dreary dullness.

[Philokles]

That D&D's opinion of traditionally femininity is pretty low is revealed by the stripping of all those elements from two of the sympathetic 'badass' women - Arya and Brienne. Instead of the well rounded book characters they are flattened out almost into wannabe men, and the former is given lines disparaging feminine girls (in sharp contrast to book-Arya who deeply respects and envies those who have those skills).