Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Ghost will reappear nonsensically and dramatically and then he'll die, because that's how the show rolls.  

That Jon and Dany are the main characters became obvious quite quickly in the books for all of us as readers.  That said, no-one can convince me that Jon and Dany falling in "twoo wuv" is the point of GRRM's story unless and until GRRM writes that in the books himself.  And then I would surprised if he didn't subvert that precisely because it's such a cliché (as well as being incestuous).  Is it possible they'll have sex? I suppose (but not if he's a fire wight) but that doesn't necessarily mean main-character lovey-dovey romance.  Could be an alliance marriage or some such.  But any way you cut it, J/D being an end-game romance would be vomit-worthy to me.

I've been contemplating the same thing. When George's Time interview came out a few months ago and he spent a good chunk of the interview going into what a fire wight was, the message to me seemed to be that one of the things Jon will lose by being resurrected is the possibility of having intimate relationships.  The two other "fire wights" we've seen have been purely focused on one task since their resurrection: for Cat, revenge, and for Beric, justice. Without the next book to go on, all of these interviews make for some very confusing predictions. 

[Ser Quork]

As GRRM made a point of saying Beric's heart doesn't beat and his blood doesn't flow, that rules out sexual intercourse for Jon if he's a fire wight, surely.  I think he'll be far less like Beric and Lady Stoneheart regarding tunnel vision, because his consciousness won't die like theirs did, as it will go to Ghost but being in an animal too long changes a person's consciousness in book lore so I think Jon as we know him will be gone for that reason. If he hasn't died, but his consciousness still goes in Ghost whilst he recovers, he'll still be very changed but not be undead. Um, yay?

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I've been contemplating the same thing. When George's Time interview came out a few months ago and he spent a good chunk of the interview going into what a fire wight was, the message to me seemed to be that one of the things Jon will lose by being resurrected is the possibility of having intimate relationships.  The two other "fire wights" we've seen have been purely focused on one task since their resurrection: for Cat, revenge, and for Beric, justice. Without the next book to go on, all of these interviews make for some very confusing predictions. 

It's funny though.,... because since johns resurrection he has actually been more human like... conversing more.... having more banter.... less robotic.... and although he has been just as focused as pre resurrection... he has grown out of his moody/sulking side...... so is being a fire wight the explanantion behind such a transformation... or is it just growing up and no longer a hormonal teenager ?

Either way I think he has more chance of banging Dany now than he would have pre resurrection... she already has one mopey/sulky man stalking her for affections she don't need two.

[Le Cygne]

Well... I wouldn't rule out what fictional wights can do in terms of sex, just look at vampire novels, plenty of sex there.

[Cas Stark]

6 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

As GRRM made a point of saying Beric's heart doesn't beat and his blood doesn't flow, that rules out sexual intercourse for Jon if he's a fire wight, surely.  I think he'll be far less like Beric and Lady Stoneheart regarding tunnel vision, because his consciousness won't die like theirs did, as it will go to Ghost but being in an animal too long changes a person's consciousness in book lore so I think Jon as we know him will be gone for that reason. If he hasn't died, but his consciousness still goes in Ghost whilst he recovers, he'll still be very changed but not be undead. Um, yay?

And this is why I didn't really think he would kill Jon. There are so so so many complications with what he has already laid down as 'rules'....so even getting around his own rules by having the body die but the soul goes into the wolf, will to me, feel like a cheat.  And what will happen to his POV?  How is this difference going to be relfected, is anyone going to want to read 2 or 3 more books of Jon's POV if it's a monotone robotic emotionless tone?  Ugh.

I am assuming that since the show repeatedly has him act suicidal and since he explicitly said he didn't want to be brought back that he will die at the end.  Of course it's possible the show is just this bad and this stupid and reading Jon's suicidal tendencies in the show are meaningless because it's become a dumb action show where the 'hero' can do anything and never will die no matter how dumb or crazy.  Sad.

[Ser Quork]

I have no idea what Jon is in the show.  He seemed to be resurrected on a sponge-bath, a haircut and a prayer.  Melisandre didn't breathe into him to pass a 'spark of life' like Thoros did to Beric or Beric to Catelyn in the books so I don't think they're really the same thing as in the books.   Jon came out of the water gasping for breath, which the wights didn't do so I don't know that this is an indication that he's like a wight in the show.  

Of course, we don't know yet with the books whether Jon'll be a fire wight.  I always assumed he would die and be brought back and that we possibly wouldn't get any more of his point of view chapters, just as we've never had any more from Catelyn.  Then again, GRRM answered someone who asked about Jon being dead, "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" so I suppose he could have been bluffing us with a fake death to make us worry he'll be like Beric or Lady Stoneheart, but I doubt it.

The thing with this information on fire resurrection is: I had thought these people were brought back to life, but his comment about fire wights not having a beating heart or blood-flow (and therefore not breathing or anything else interdependent on blood-flow) shows us that this is wrong - they're not truly alive but somehow animated by another but with seemingly more of their past selves than ice wights have.  This really does seem like a game changer to me - for the books, that is.

I believe GRRM said he wanted resurrection not to be a 'get out of jail free' card - it should have consequences - and those are pretty dire consequences, it seems to me.  

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Ser Quork said:

I have no idea what Jon is in the show.  He seemed to be resurrected on a sponge-bath, a haircut and a prayer.  Melisandre didn't breathe into him to pass a 'spark of life' like Thoros did to Beric or Beric to Catelyn in the books so I don't think they're really the same thing as in the books.   Jon came out of the water gasping for breath, which the wights didn't do so I don't know that this is an indication that he's like a wight in the show.  

Of course, we don't know yet with the books whether Jon'll be a fire wight.  I always assumed he would die and be brought back and that we possibly wouldn't get any more of his point of view chapters, just as we've never had any more from Catelyn.  Then again, GRRM answered someone who asked about Jon being dead, "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" so I suppose he could have been bluffing us with a fake death to make us worry he'll be like Beric or Lady Stoneheart, but I doubt it.

The thing with this information on fire resurrection is: I had thought these people were brought back to life, but his comment about fire wights not having a beating heart or blood-flow (and therefore not breathing or anything else interdependent on blood-flow) shows us that this is wrong - they're not truly alive but somehow animated by another but with seemingly more of their past selves than ice wights have.  This really does seem like a game changer to me - for the books, that is.

I believe GRRM said he wanted resurrection not to be a 'get out of jail free' card - it should have consequences - and those are pretty dire consequences, it seems to me.  

I can think of very little worse than Catelyn Stark's current predicament, trapped in a mockery of life.

[Ser Quork]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I can think of very little worse than Catelyn Stark's current predicament, trapped in a mockery of life.

Quite so.

[Cas Stark]

How would no more Jon POVs work?  If he has no POV, then what was the point of his paternity being a secret with hints strewn over 5 books? Without an internal monologue to show how this knowledge affects him and his self image and even his future decision making, why do it?  Also, I get he's not writing for the fans, but Jon is one of the three leads and most popular characters, if he loses his POV fans will be outraged.

[Ser Quork]

I don't think it would work (well, not for me anyway as Jon is one of my favourite characters).  But this is why I'm saying what GRRM is saying about fire wights seems so huge to me.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

And this is why I didn't really think he would kill Jon. There are so so so many complications with what he has already laid down as 'rules'....so even getting around his own rules by having the body die but the soul goes into the wolf, will to me, feel like a cheat.  And what will happen to his POV?  How is this difference going to be relfected, is anyone going to want to read 2 or 3 more books of Jon's POV if it's a monotone robotic emotionless tone?  Ugh.

I am assuming that since the show repeatedly has him act suicidal and since he explicitly said he didn't want to be brought back that he will die at the end.  Of course it's possible the show is just this bad and this stupid and reading Jon's suicidal tendencies in the show are meaningless because it's become a dumb action show where the 'hero' can do anything and never will die no matter how dumb or crazy.  Sad.

LOL at trying to figure out Suicidal Show Jon.  I think that is just an extension of the yearly, death defying battles and quests the Ds have been sending Jon on every season now.  Ever since Craster's Keep, when Jon's physical state wasn't in question, up to Hardhome, thru the resurrection......to the Battle of the Bastards and now the wight hunt, the common denominator has been that the Ds are writing their own shit.  It's the Ds wanting battles for the ADHD type of audience they love, I don't think they are trying to really say anything about Jon's state of mind or being.  They'd much rather we not think about that.......and enjoy the visuals, that's my guess.  

As far as Jon being some kind of fire wight.  I'm not sure on that.  I think George's interview was to show all the reasons WHY it wouldn't be good for Jon to be a fire wight.  I could be wrong, but until I read what George writes, I'm not considering Jon to be exactly like Beric or LSH.  Even in the show verse, we don't really know what the hell woke Jon up, Mel gave up and walked away.  Mel didn't think she was successful and we know she didn't do what Thoros had done to wake Beric, show or book.  It's going to take knowing what happens with Ghost, whether Jon truly dies or lingers like Bran, or is stuck somewhere in between and how any attempts at restoration happen.  That's just my opinion, but George never says in that interview........that JON is just like a fire wight.  He's talking about setting up the problems with being a fire wight and is talking over the interviewer, so it's a hard call to say the exact implications. 

Now, one thing I do notice is the ugly Beric type scars they gave Jon.  In all honesty, I think it's pettiness with the Ds.  Just like they decided to claim Jon didn't have a ton of junk from the trunk, they've decided to make him look a gods damn mess as well.  They really are petty little icks.  Plus, they want Dany to notice something IS different with him. 

The only hope of knowing is the hope of TWOW and some Jon POVs.  I can't imagine Jon's story continuing for a couple books, or planning to have such......without using his POV.   Yes, we have Mel there at the Wall now as a POV, but I can't see going the Cat route with that, either, and never hearing from Jon again.  I can't see keeping Jon for a real long time after The Ides of Marsh, but having other secondary POVs tell his story.  I think the whole point of showing and telling the problems of being a fire wight are to save Jon from that fate as well. 

[Le Cygne]

GRRM answered a question about Jon's resurrection on the show by saying he foreshadowed it with 2 fire wights in the books. Mel brought him back and she is a red priest, and Beric said to Jon they were both resurrected by the lord of light and Jon just asked why they were. Then they showed scars that sure don't look healed. Also Jon coming up out of the water visually similar to the way the wights did. The ice* wights are not the same as fire wights but there are a lot of hints Jon is a fire wight, books and show.

(*changed this word to use GRRM's word)

[Le Cygne]

Jon's body died, the showrunners said so. So is he Jesus or a wight, I am going with wight for now, and I sure hope it's not Jesus.

[Ser Quork]

12 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

GRRM answered a question about Jon's resurrection on the show by saying he foreshadowed it with 2 fire wights in the books. Mel brought him back and she is a red priest, and Beric said to Jon they were both resurrected by the lord of light and Jon just asked why they were. Then they showed scars that sure don't look healed. Also Jon coming up out of the water visually similar to the way the wights did. The NK wights are not the same as fire wights but there are a lot of hints Jon is a fire wight, books and show.

The interview was about Lady Stoneheart (who GRRM calls a "vengeful wight") and then GRRM talks of his disappointment that Gandalf came back from the dead and the interviewer goes on to ask about Jon, but GRRM goes back to Beric:

Quote

“Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever." That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character.

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

I don't think it's a clear-cut as you do.  And we have yet know what he'll do with Book Jon and - far more importantly - how he'll do it and what Jon'll be like.  I'm not convinced Book Jon will be like show counterpart.  

[The Bard of Banefort]

The amount of time that passes between death and resurrection appears to have a huge influence on how well the character fares. Beric was first resurrected almost immediately, whereas Cat was left to rot in a river for three days. We don't see Beric until after his fifth resurrection, but I think we can infer that he started off better than Cat did. I don't think Mel will resurrect Jon as quickly as Thoros did Beric, but I do think his soul will be better sheltered than Cat's was through his warging of Ghost. However, he will still be changed. Even if being dead had no effect on him, being assassinated by his own men would.

Jon's body, on the other hand, will likely be damaged by all of this. We know that wargs can live on in other animals after death, but even still that does not stop their bodies from decomposing like a normal corpse would. This makes me think that a R'hllor resurrection revitalizes the soul, and that the body essentially remains a walking corpse that's been frozen in place. 

[Le Cygne]

It seems rather clear cut that Jon Snow, whoever that is now, is inhabiting a reanimated corpse. That's enough for me to call him a wight. And I think GRRM was doing the same.

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

And the showrunners said Jon died. So that's established on the show, too. So it's like, wight or Jesus or... call it what you like. Regardless, it's a dead body that was reanimated.

[Le Cygne]

Here's more:

So all that time I thought Gandalf was dead, and now he’s back and now he’s Gandalf the White. And, ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me.

Here's the rest of the article:

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

[The Bard of Banefort]

18 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

It seems rather clear cut that Jon Snow, whoever that is now, is inhabiting a reanimated corpse. That's enough for me to call him a wight. And I think GRRM was doing the same.

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

And the showrunners said Jon died. So that's established on the show, too. So it's like, wight or Jesus or... call it what you like. Regardless, it's a dead body that was reanimated.

This also gives me the impression that Jon will be living on borrowed time. Beric becoming "more physically hideous, because he's not a living human being anymore" makes me wonder if his body will continue to decay, only at a much slower rate. 

[Le Cygne]

Beric also says to Jon in the scene above, "You and I won't find much joy while we're here, but we can keep others alive."

[Ser Quork]

58 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The amount of time that passes between death and resurrection appears to have a huge influence on how well the character fares. Beric was first resurrected almost immediately, whereas Cat was left to rot in a river for three days. We don't see Beric until after his fifth resurrection, but I think we can infer that he started off better than Cat did. I don't think Mel will resurrect Jon as quickly as Thoros did Beric, but I do think his soul will be better sheltered than Cat's was through his warging of Ghost. However, he will still be changed. Even if being dead had no effect on him, being assassinated by his own men would.

Jon's body, on the other hand, will likely be damaged by all of this. We know that wargs can live on in other animals after death, but even still that does not stop their bodies from decomposing like a normal corpse would. This makes me think that a R'hllor resurrection revitalizes the soul, and that the body essentially remains a walking corpse that's been frozen in place. 

I agree.  His consciousness going into Ghost will keep it safe in some ways but not from the effects of being in Ghost - one way or another, he will be changed - more animalistic?

 

48 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

It seems rather clear cut that Jon Snow, whoever that is now, is inhabiting a reanimated corpse. <>

And the showrunners said Jon died. So that's established on the show, too. So it's like, wight or Jesus or... call it what you like. Regardless, it's a dead body that was reanimated.

I agree with the bold and as I said this is huge - a reanimated corpse is not the same as a living, breathing human being (which Show Jon clearly is).  We wait and see for Jon in the books.  If he dies and returns, he will undoubtedly be a fire wight.

 

26 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Beric also says to Jon in the scene above, "You and I won't find much joy while we're here, but we can keep others alive."

Which would be fine but for boatsex, which puts the lie to that.