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Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]


Little Scribe of Naath

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7 hours ago, Starkistbeforethedawn said:

Doesn't all of that fall apart the moment Cersei's armies fail to go North?

Yes, you're right. But it falls apart anyways for the same reason without this theory so I'm just confused. I've since realized I can no longer watch any review which attempts to give the show any credibility. Taking these plot lines and characters seriously seems like as big of a waste of time as trying to make sense of the crazy homeless guy screaming on the street corner.

I did think it was nice of D&D to give us a big hint via Littlefinger as to how to figure out the show: "Sometimes when I try to understand someone's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst." The worst being, it's nothing really.

 

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6 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Well, I don´t know Martin personally, but he might be pretty bad judge of character and skill when it comes to people who want do him a favour. If only test he gave them, was the identity Jon Snow´s mother as the anecdote goes, then it doesn´t sound he was critically examining their writing exectly. And of course, this was their initiative, becouse unfortunaly, there wasn´t much other ASOIAF fans among screenwriters. If, for example Straczynski (alhough that might not be the best example either) get the idea, things might have been so much different....

Obviously, despite what he proclaims on the public, he ran from the GOT´s writing tem before season 5 and I think real reasons are quite obvious.      

I think this must be the case as well. He saw that the train had derailed and bailed out rather than trying to get it back on the tracks.

Does anyone know who the creators will be for the spin-off shows?

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think this must be the case as well. He saw that the train had derailed and bailed out rather than trying to get it back on the tracks.

Does anyone know who the creators will be for the spin-off shows?

Maybe, I don't know anymore.  I thought at the time he stopped his close involvement w/the show over unstated 'creative differences' and was using Winds as an excuse.....but he has continued to praise the show, and plug it for awards as well.  So, I really don't know anymore.

But I do think his story would be better served if he had a similarly high level of involvement in the final season since it is probably the only end the story will get......I don't believe he will be involved though because he will never admit the sorry state of his creative drive where ASOIAF is concerned.

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5 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think this must be the case as well. He saw that the train had derailed and bailed out rather than trying to get it back on the tracks.

This does not track with the rest of Martin's schedule, which was completely pared down with the goal in mind to get The Winds of Winter finished. He really was deluded enough to think he could still beat the show to the finish line as of three years ago. 

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11 hours ago, StepStark said:

Actually no, it wasn't their initiative. It all started when GRRM's agent sent the books to Benioff. Before that, D&D didn't even know about ASOIAF.

Benioff and Weiss also held Martin down against the table and forced him to sign his rights away with his own blood for pennies on the dollar. 

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3 hours ago, Faint said:

Benioff and Weiss also held Martin down against the table and forced him to sign his rights away with his own blood for pennies on the dollar. 

I'm not sure how much sarcasm you intended to be read there, but I honestly think that there was some figurative arm-twisting between HBO and GRRM, only not at the beginning but later on, around the time when he decided to quit the show as a writer. More precise, I'm still suspicious about that draft and how and when it was published and how the most convenient paragraphs were blacked, just enough for GRRM to be coerced into something. Just my two cents.

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19 hours ago, StepStark said:

When did they seem capable of handling a decent adaptation? Ahead of the first season, when they kept repeating that the show is "about power"? As far as I can remember, that was all they talked about: power, power, power... Until season two came, and they called it "the season of romance". The show about power and a season of romance? LOL! Is that a decent adaptation of ASOIAF?

I'll say it again, literally every other writer in the business would make a better show out of ASOIAF than D&D did. Literally any other writer would make a better season one than they did. I don't think any other writer would write something as stupid as Cersei talking to Cat about her "first boy" who was a "black haired beauty" but died fighting a fever after which he was buried in "a crypt" Cersei "never visited, never". Six years passed, and I still have no idea what was that about. And the same for Jaime mocking Jon for taking "vows for life". And also for the scene in which Cat finds a blond hair and concludes that Bran didn't fall but was pushed by Lannisters.

All those examples are from the second episode, by the way. All invented by D&D and all as stupid as it gets.

Of course it wasn't as monumentally ridiculous as the wight hunt, because back then D&D were just writing individual scenes, while now they're writing entire plots. But if writers are capable of writing such stupid scenes early on, nobody should be surprised when they start writing stupid plots later on.

Everything D&D did right, any other writer would've done as good or even better (for example, other writers probably wouldn't be so stupid to remove Ned's "That's the only time a man can be brave" line). Everything D&D did wrong is another level of wrong, something that other showrunners in the business would never embarrass themselves with. So I really don't understand when did D&D ever deserve any acclaim and when did they show anything even resembling competence.

Of course I understand GRRM's which to see ASOIAF adapted. I just don't understand why did he pick D&D, when literally any other pick would've been better, and probably nobody would refuse such a story. 

Oh, I don't deny there were changes in the first two seasons that I disliked. Episode Six had that DEE lightful scene with Littflefinger and Ros and the other young lady where they proceeded to give away what an evil douche Petyr Baelish really is. Rather a foolish move for a duo who seem to enjoy shocking audiences, too. But it is far easier for bad-to-mediocre writers to adapt a work that is so ready made for good TV. Even with annoying changes like Talisa for Jeyne, the good in the first two seasons outweighed the bad. And then nitpicks turn into rants, and small changes that maybe the loyal book audience can live with turn into reasons why I stoped buying the later seasons on DVD. :D 

Considering that the only other thing I've seen one half of the show runners do is the movie Troy, which is... well, it had a good cast. :ph34r: But it has so many lazy tropes and takes the easy route- it's mediocre at best, if you want to be kind. So, no, I don't chalk D&D up as great script writers or show handlers, or even competent ones. But if the show had maintained its season 1 quality, I'd probably still be buying the DVDs, even though I'd probably still find plenty to complain about. D&D's best bet would have been to get outside help and find good talent to keep the story at least minimally coherent. Instead, they seem to be riding high on praise and attention and see no reason to switch course. This may change, hopefully, since mainstream reviewers are starting to notice the flaws. And it is always popular for someone to write a think piece on How That Show Everyone Liked Wasn't Really All That Good. (and by popular I mean clickbait) 

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1 hour ago, StepStark said:

I'm not sure how much sarcasm you intended to be read there, but I honestly think that there was some figurative arm-twisting between HBO and GRRM, only not at the beginning but later on, around the time when he decided to quit the show as a writer. More precise, I'm still suspicious about that draft and how and when it was published and how the most convenient paragraphs were blacked, just enough for GRRM to be coerced into something. Just my two cents.

My own reading of his attitude concerning the show from the limited exposure we get via his blog and interviews is that Martin is not happy that the show has surpassed him but he was certainly never coerced into anything by anyone.  He also seems legitimately proud of how successful it has been. On a purely speculative level, I believe he is somewhat wistful about how things have turned out while recognizing both the reality of the entertainment business and his own outsize role in determining what happened when they ran out of written material. 

That said, I think this past season is pretty consistent with what Martin has indicated he told the showrunners about future events from the books. Benioff and Weiss clearly know the ending to the story since so much of what the show has been about the last few seasons is one terrible short cut after another to get us to a specific narrative place. It does not feel organic at all.

Indeed, the finished product looks exactly like what you would get if you told two unimaginative people to adapt a seven book series but only gave them the first five books and the last third of the seventh book, while also insisting they adapt the series in half as many episodes as they would need to render a truly faithful adaption. It also does not help that Benioff and Weiss are terrible writers.

I think when we look back, provided the series ever gets fully published (which is looking increasingly doubtful), we will recognize the eighth season as the most faithful adaption since the fifth season, if not the season before. Whereas seasons six and seven will be seen as pure invention excepting big plot beats (i.e., Melisandre resurrects Jon, Shireen is sacrificed to Melisandre's fires, Daenerys returns to Westeros, Tyrion advises Daenerys, Cersei survives her trial, the Children of the Forrest created the Others, Hodor = hold the door, R + L = J, Jon and Daenerys, Daenerys gets pregnant, etc.). 

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2 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

Considering that the only other thing I've seen one half of the show runners do is the movie Troy, which is... well, it had a good cast. :ph34r: But it has so many lazy tropes and takes the easy route- it's mediocre at best, if you want to be kind. So, no, I don't chalk D&D up as great script writers or show handlers, or even competent ones.

Benioff also wrote X Men Origins Wolverine which is a notoriously garbage movie, not even mediocre like Troy.

If you're curious about Weiss' resume I'd hop on over to his Wikipedia page, it's a treasure - he's been involved in a number of failed high profile projects since the early 2000s that all somehow ended in development hell. Like literally everything this guy touched turned to shit before he hopped on Benioffs coattails for GoT.

Basically these guys are bona fide hacks. The evidence has been there from day one. But GoT got by in the earlier seasons on the strength of the source material and I suspect also GRRM having a more active hand in some of the changes from earlier seasons that did work - the added Robert Baratheon scenes in Season 1 come to mind here. Certainly doesn't seem like D$D especially after that fucking abhorrent "Robert Rebellions was built on a lie" dogshit.

I suspect when Confederate comes out and inevitably flops the general public will finally catch on, hell they already seem to be starting to. 

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20 minutes ago, RenlyIsNotRight said:

Basically these guys are bona fide hacks. 

Not sure what to make of David Benioff. On one hand, I think most of what he has written is terrible but he did write the 25th Hour, which is a wonderful film and screenplay. 

I think a huge problem is that most Hollywood writers simply do not take fantasy seriously. I am not sure who would have been ideal for this project. As far as I can tell, the only person who fits the bill is Martin himself. 

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16 minutes ago, Faint said:

Not sure what to make of David Benioff. On one hand, I think most of what he has written is terrible but he did write the 25th Hour, which is a wonderful film and screenplay. 

At very least, he seems to be more competent than Weiss. From what I understand his novel (City of Thieves) is quite good though I also understand its based on a personal account of his grandfather. I haven't seen 25th Hour myself so I can't really comment on it.

He definitely needs to stay the hell away from adaptations though.

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16 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Yes, you're right. But it falls apart anyways for the same reason without this theory so I'm just confused. I've since realized I can no longer watch any review which attempts to give the show any credibility. Taking these plot lines and characters seriously seems like as big of a waste of time as trying to make sense of the crazy homeless guy screaming on the street corner.

I did think it was nice of D&D to give us a big hint via Littlefinger as to how to figure out the show: "Sometimes when I try to understand someone's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst." The worst being, it's nothing really.

100% with you, the amount of reviews i read or watch from week to week has drastically fallen because the majority don't ask any of the questions that are glaring in my mind as i watch the show. I'm a big fan of Preston Jacobs and i still catch his reviews because he invariably asks all those questions and his general analysis is usually spot on. But with even him I find myself laughing, more than anything, when he starts analyzing something to have deeper meaning than it turns out to have.

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5 hours ago, Faint said:

 I think a huge problem is that most Hollywood writers simply do not take fantasy seriously. I am not sure who would have been ideal for this project. As far as I can tell, the only person who fits the bill is Martin himself. 

Like I said previously, Straczynski perhaps. But he is not top-notch writer all the time either.  

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I'm sure it's been said, but this thread is supposed to be for ranting right? I need this. This is my therapy :)

 

DAENY:

she is not a good person. I don't care how pretty ms Clarke is. The best ending (that would line up with what this story is supposed to be) is her ultimately failing. She's a lot like her father and that is not a good thing. Also, I don't feel she really earned much. At the start, she was sympathetic. It was a good story of hardship and determination. Then she got dragons and became "Mhysa"  and then enter generic hero #548 that everyone loves for no real reason. 

 

DID ANYONE MENTION AN ARMY:

What happened to Dothraki Blood riders? Why is the entire dorthraki even following her? Never mind that. Let's pretend it makes sense. I have no idea how she is feeding everyone from dragonstone, i have no idea how euron can move freely past her forces, I have no idea why she didn't lay siege to KL. Even without dragons, she's gonna have to siege it eventually. If you planned on doing it to casterly rock with just unsullied, then KL should have been doable. It all makes no sense. 

 

HEY MY DUDES. LET'S GO CATCH A DEAD GUY:

Why..... Just, why? They literally gave the enemy the only means to get past the wall. In fact, why is anyone even worried up until that point? "the dead are coming". Okay Jon. That's why we have the wall. Let's assume that the wall wasn't magic. How many wildlings did mance have? How many nights watch held the wall against them? Lol, no way the nights king was getting through. The north alone could have held that wall. 

 

ARYA IS A TRAINED WARRIOR:

Except how? Syrio trained her bruh... For like, a month. Two? Let's be generous and say a year. 

 

She was trained by the hound... Except she wasn't. She practiced her first year water dancing while she traveled. And she did kill a few guys, but it was more murder and not a swordfight.

 

Faceless men!! Except, not really. Most of her time was spent cleaning dead bodies or being blind. She did train in stick fighting. But that only makes her good with a staff. Go practice fighting with a Warhammer and then tell me how great you are with a spear. I'll wait. 

 

No. She is an assassin. Sneaky. Ninja. Poison, shadows,  and back stabbing. That's her skill. So how is she able to face off with a trained knight and one of the best in the country and be her equal? If that's how it works then knights in westeros suck balls. 

 

This whole season has been fanfiction. It makes no sense. And the only way to have it make sense is to have viewers fill in the holes and inconsistencies by either ignoring the issues outright, or making up their own Canon. 

 

I used to think that D&D were actually good writers, but now I notice that these issues are not new. The only thing was that they had the books to buffer their poor storytelling. I feel like I'm watching a Michael Bay film now. 

 

I'm done. 

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9 hours ago, Faint said:

My own reading of his attitude concerning the show from the limited exposure we get via his blog and interviews is that Martin is not happy that the show has surpassed him but he was certainly never coerced into anything by anyone.

He was certainly not coerced into signing the deal with HBO in the first place, but I think that something strange happened along the way. I see no other explanation for that draft's appearance in that particular moment, and also for the fact that the ending of it was conveniently covered. Whoever published it, also wanted to hide the ending, which is strange and not exactly how hackers and crackers usually operate. That's why I think that it was sorta warning, that the cover can easily be removed and the entire plot of the draft revealed, which is definitely not something GRRM would ever want to happen. Of course I don't have any evidence for that theory, but on the other hand that is the only explanation that would actually explain everything about that unusual turn of events.

9 hours ago, Faint said:

That said, I think this past season is pretty consistent with what Martin has indicated he told the showrunners about future events from the books. Benioff and Weiss clearly know the ending to the story since so much of what the show has been about the last few seasons is one terrible short cut after another to get us to a specific narrative place. It does not feel organic at all.

Since they obviously deluded themselves into thinking they're better writers than GRRM, they probably think their ending is better than GRRM's. As for not feeling organic, well nothing ever did when D&D's scenes are concerned, even in early seasons.

9 hours ago, Faint said:

Indeed, the finished product looks exactly like what you would get if you told two unimaginative people to adapt a seven book series but only gave them the first five books and the last third of the seventh book, while also insisting they adapt the series in half as many episodes as they would need to render a truly faithful adaption. It also does not help that Benioff and Weiss are terrible writers.

The number of episodes was not as big a problem as them being terrible writers. While 12 or 15 episodes per season would've been much more appropriate, it works only with good writers. But on the other hand, good writers would've used 10 episodes per season in a much more clever way than D&D did. The show needs both more episode and better runners, but only the former without the later would definitely nor solve anything (it'd only create more problems most probably), while the later without the former would bring an improvement.

9 hours ago, Faint said:

I think when we look back, provided the series ever gets fully published (which is looking increasingly doubtful), we will recognize the eighth season as the most faithful adaption since the fifth season, if not the season before. Whereas seasons six and seven will be seen as pure invention excepting big plot beats (i.e., Melisandre resurrects Jon, Shireen is sacrificed to Melisandre's fires, Daenerys returns to Westeros, Tyrion advises Daenerys, Cersei survives her trial, the Children of the Forrest created the Others, Hodor = hold the door, R + L = J, Jon and Daenerys, Daenerys gets pregnant, etc.). 

I'm not sure how can any of the seasons be considered faithful. It's not about how many changes they made, but about were those changes inevitable (due to filming costs or whatever), or just D&D simply liked their writing more than GRRM's. So of course they couldn't deviate a lot in season one, but even then none of their changes made too much sense and all were made because D&D liked their writing more than they liked what's in the books. In time the amount of their scenes just increased, but actually the problem with faithfulness existed from day one. And in that light, I don't expect season eight to be anything near GRRM's story, but even if it is it's going to be ridiculous given how different the journey was.

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1 hour ago, StepStark said:

I'm not sure how can any of the seasons be considered faithful. It's not about how many changes they made, but about were those changes inevitable (due to filming costs or whatever), or just D&D simply liked their writing more than GRRM's. So of course they couldn't deviate a lot in season one, but even then none of their changes made too much sense and all were made because D&D liked their writing more than they liked what's in the books. In time the amount of their scenes just increased, but actually the problem with faithfulness existed from day one. And in that light, I don't expect season eight to be anything near GRRM's story, but even if it is it's going to be ridiculous given how different the journey was.

4

I agree with you completely. I've been wondering (since the very beginning) at the needless changes that were introduced in the show. What was the whole point of Ros? Was there any point apart from 'tits'? They've always been sensationalists and more concerned with shocking the audience (whether via plot, sex, or violence). I think this may be why they liked ASOIF in the first place - because it has a lot of 'shocking' plotlines.

I find your ideas about the arm twisting quite interesting actually. I'm not sure why that draft suddenly surfaced or where GRRM stands on the show now. But unlike others who have commented, I do not get the impression he's pleased. The timings of the release of the WoW chapters are enough to show us his opinion of the show. More recently, his revelations about Jon's 'wight-edness' just before Season 7 is also telling.

I think ultimately, he will never criticize the show because he's not stupid and after all, the more successful the show, the richer he is. I don't mean this to mean that he is mercenary - I don't think he is. What I mean is that he wouldn't... look a gift horse in the mouth perhaps?

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Regarding the "outline": according to what George explained last year at Balticon, his publisher house had the outline up on the wall of a conference/meeting room, and thus the ending was blacked out by the people who decided to put the outline on display in their offices. Someone who visited or entered that space took a picture and "leaked it".

You can speculate on who and why the outline was leaked, but the blacknig out was the doing of his publishing house.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You can speculate on who and why the outline was leaked, but the blacknig out was the doing of his publishing house.

I see little mystery relating to this issue. It is obvious that the redacted portions have material from parts of the story that remain unpublished.

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1 minute ago, Faint said:

I see little mystery relating to this issue. It is obvious that the redacted portions have material from parts of the story that remain unpublished.

Yes, obviously. But there is also no mystery about "who" blacked it out: the people who thought "oh let's use George's outline as a display to show off" was a good idea.

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