Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

Sorry to say, but to me the biggest denial is this:

The show didn't rule out any theory about the books, no matter how ridiculous or unrealistic those theories can be. The show is just a fan fiction at this point and a very bad one at that. And because of that, the show simply can't be taken seriously as canon in any way. Just because something happens in the show, that absolutely doesn't mean that it's going to happen in the books too. Actually it's almost always the opposite: what happened in the show in no way can happen in the books, and that's based on five books that are published so far, and not on theories some fans have.

So, you think maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't Jon Snow's parents, even though it has now been confirmed in the show?  You think that maybe Aegon will sit the IT at the end of the series even though he isn't in the show?  Or that Rhaegar is really alive and is Mance in the books?  

Sorry, as much as I agree that the show has indulged in much fan fiction type of stuff....like the Hound and Brienne's fight, etc....it is absolutely going to turn out that many theories have already been ruled out by the show based on what has happened.  The Blackfish is dead in the show, he will be dead in the series end, hopefully a better death.  Same for Rickon and Summer and Shaggy Dog. Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents and both are dead.  Sadly it appears that House Dayne was a flower that George RR Martin forgot to tend in his garden and is going to have no part in the end game.  And many other things.  At this point, if it were allowed one could just as easily rant and rave about the direction the show shows the author is taking things......

[Le Cygne]

They are not saying books = show.

The case of GAME OF THRONES and A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is perhaps unique. I can't think of any other instance where the movie or TV show came out as the source material was still being written. So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

Benioff: We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it. Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.

Weiss: He figures a lot of this stuff as he goes. He always says he’s a gardener, not an architect.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ending-season-5-producers-interview-1201469516/

[StepStark]

16 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So, you think maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't Jon Snow's parents, even though it has now been confirmed in the show?  You think that maybe Aegon will sit the IT at the end of the series even though he isn't in the show?  Or that Rhaegar is really alive and is Mance in the books?  

The first part of your post doesn't have to do anything with the second part, so I'm going to address them separately. So, no, I don't find any of these theories plausible but that's not the point. The only one I believe in is R+L=J, but that one was as good as proven long time ago, long before the show finally remembered to deal with it.

16 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sorry, as much as I agree that the show has indulged in much fan fiction type of stuff....like the Hound and Brienne's fight, etc....it is absolutely going to turn out that many theories have already been ruled out by the show based on what has happened.  The Blackfish is dead in the show, he will be dead in the series end, hopefully a better death.  Same for Rickon and Summer and Shaggy Dog. Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents and both are dead.  Sadly it appears that House Dayne was a flower that George RR Martin forgot to tend in his garden and is going to have no part in the end game.  And many other things.  At this point, if it were allowed one could just as easily rant and rave about the direction the show shows the author is taking things......

The point is that the show doesn't matter at all any more in regards to how books are going to end. That was my whole point: that trying to figure the books ending based on the show is pointless. What happened with Blackfish in the show in no way changed what I think will happen with Blackfish in the books. That doesn't mean that I'm certain about what will happen to BF in the books because I'm not. But D&D's fan fiction is too ridiculous to be taken seriously on any level. Not only that, but based on Martin's work so far, I have no reason to expect that his storylines will end without a proper conclusion. So far, none of the characters that exited the story for some reason (most often by dying) failed to get a proper conclusion. Even someone as Shae (fairly minor character) got it. So do I expect that Blackfish and Rickon and all the rest of them will serve more important and logical arcs than in the show? Of course I do, because the story in the books so far was written that way. Jeyne Poole was not forgotten and left out after book one, even though nobody would really take it against Martin if he never mentioned her again. The entire Davos' arc in ADWD is a build-up for the return of Rickon, so yes, I do expect Rickon to play an important role in the remaining two books. Maybe not big role, but certainly not as insignificant as in the show. And as I said already, there are characters like Stannis and Shireen which are, based just on already published books, obvious evidence that D&D simply don't care about Martin's plans for the characters. Even if he does burn her in the books, it will be in hugely different circumstances and for entirely different purpose, which actually makes all the difference.

LOL, if D&D were so unfaithful to the published books, why would I expect them to follow two books that are still not finished even?

[Tifani]

17 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

They are not saying books = show.

The case of GAME OF THRONES and A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is perhaps unique. I can't think of any other instance where the movie or TV show came out as the source material was still being written. So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

Benioff: We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it. Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.

Weiss: He figures a lot of this stuff as he goes. He always says he’s a gardener, not an architect.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ending-season-5-producers-interview-1201469516/

i think its pretty clear by now what they mean is that the show will spoil the endgames of the main starks, lannister, targs. and various things like R+l=J, jon/dany getting together, how the white walkers were first made. but its not going to spoil on how these endgames will "happen" because the show is taking a different route to get from point a to point b. for example, cersei's story in TWOW will probably be vastly different because the sand snakes are going to KL, because of faegon, and how tommen is only an 8 year old on the show. so if TWOW comes out, that will all still be a surprise to use. what won't be surprise for us though? cersei surviving twow and getting some kind of revenge against the high sparrow. 

[Le Cygne]

16 minutes ago, StepStark said:

LOL, if D&D were so unfaithful to the published books, why would I expect them to follow two books that are still not finished even?

This. (I added another quote above...)

And this, too, the showrunner says the ending will be the "spirit of the books" (and for reference, he has said this about the show before, too):

"Luckily we've had a lot of talks with George, we know where he's going. We know the end point, and we're hoping that, you know, that end point will be very much in keeping with the spirit of the books."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcy-EhkHXnE

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, Tifani said:

i think its pretty clear by now what they mean is that the show will spoil the endgames of the main starks, lannister, targs. and various things like R+l=J, jon/dany getting together, how the white walkers were first made. but its not going to spoil on how these endgames will "happen" because the show is taking a different route to get from point a to point b. for example, cersei's story in TWOW will probably be vastly different because the sand snakes are going to KL, because of faegon, and how tommen is only an 8 year old on the show. so if TWOW comes out, that will all still be a surprise to use. what won't be surprise for us though? cersei surviving twow and getting some kind of revenge against the high sparrow. 

Considering that in good storytelling the road is not a bit less important than the destination and that destination can make sense only if the road does too, I don't care what the show will eventually spoil. D&D may indeed reveal some of the destinations main characters will reach in the books, but A: they're so inconsistent that they have to actually spell it out in "Behind the scene" videos ("When George told us...") in order for people to take their destination points seriously, and B: the roads to those destinations will be so different (and much more logical and consistent and therefor surprising in a good way) that it will feel like a completely different ending altogether.

8 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

This. (I added another quote above...)

Yes, I saw. I agree with you completely, I really don't understand why people don't believe D&D in what is maybe the only thing they've been honest about, but otherwise believe in so much of their BS.

[Tifani]

4 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Considering that in good storytelling the road is not a bit less important than the destination and that destination can make sense only if the road does too, I don't care what the show will eventually spoil. D&D may indeed reveal some of the destinations main characters will reach in the books, but A: they're so inconsistent that they have to actually spell it out in "Behind the scene" videos ("When George told us...") in order for people to take their destination points seriously, and B: the roads to those destinations will be so different (and much more logical and consistent and therefor surprising in a good way) that it will feel like a completely different ending altogether.

Yes, I saw. I agree with you completely, I really don't understand why people don't believe D&D in what is maybe the only thing they've been honest about, but otherwise believe in so much of their BS.

i mean i agree with that to an extent, but at the same time if twow does ever come out now...anytime that stannis or shireen will appear i'll be thinking "hmmm wonder when they're gonna die". as i do believe that both those characters will die in twow. so even if the journey isn't the same, knowing certain endgames does change things and make it a different kind of reading experience. 

and while the journey is important, i also do think GRRM added a lot of unnecessary world building nonsense in AFFC and ADWD. his editor should have cut a lot more shit out. and i do think that in regards to certain things that the show has cout out, it is telling. 

next year when season 8 comes out and the endgames for all the major characters are spoiled, it will undoubtedly affect readers' perception when TWOW ever does come out (personally i no longer believe that it will be out before the final season)

[StepStark]

17 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

And this, too, the showrunner says the ending will be the "spirit of the books" (and for reference, he has said this about the show before, too):

Speaking of the spirit, this guy captured it perfectly:

 

[Le Cygne]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Speaking of the spirit, this guy captured it perfectly:

And this is keeping the door wide open, too (from a quote above):

Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, Tifani said:

and while the journey is important, i also do think GRRM added a lot of unnecessary world building nonsense in AFFC and ADWD. his editor should have cut a lot more shit out. and i do think that in regards to certain things that the show has cout out, it is telling. 

 

For some reason this is common misconception on this forum. If you think that he added "unnecessary nonsense" in AFFC and ADWD, I'd suggest that you watch the video I linked in my previous post and see what that guy has to say about AFFC and ADWD. He explains the shift in the story's focus, and I think that all those "problems" people "see" in AFFC and ADWD are caused by people missing the deliberate shift by Martin. Once you realize he didn't "loose the control over his story", you'll probably see that all those changes and "cuts" that D&D made in the show actually make no sense at all.

[Cas Stark]

I guess it depends on one's perspective.  The brought Rickon and Osha back to die, their deaths to me were not well done on the show.  Martin writing 10 chapters of Davos/Skaagos/Rickon/Osha and Rickon, Osha and Shaggy Dog all still dead at the end is the 'same' to me.  In fact, if Rickon Stark is dying, I might prefer that the pain not be long and drawn out.  The show said they were going to leave Dorne out....this tells me that nothing that happens with the Martells is important to the end game, they were a large weed that the author allowed to grow in lieu of existing flowers in the garden.  

The showrunners and the author have said all manner of contradictory things, so I guess if people want to believe the end of the novels, if that even ever comes, is going to be substantially different than the end of the show, they may be free to believe this for many years, even forever.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, StepStark said:

For some reason this is common misconception on this forum. If you think that he added "unnecessary nonsense" in AFFC and ADWD, I'd suggest that you watch the video I linked in my previous post and see what that guy has to say about AFFC and ADWD. He explains the shift in the story's focus, and I think that all those "problems" people "see" in AFFC and ADWD are caused by people missing the deliberate shift by Martin. Once you realize he didn't "loose the control over his story", you'll probably see that all those changes and "cuts" that D&D made in the show actually make no sense at all.

I know it.  I read it.  

[StepStark]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

And this is keeping the door wide open, too (from a quote above):

Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.

Believe me, I'd rather kill myself than try to create some at least somewhat logical conclusion for the mess D&D made in the show. I honestly don't see a satisfying way out of the show's increasingly nonsensical "story".

[StepStark]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I read it.

Which doesn't mean that you got it right.

[Le Cygne]

Just now, StepStark said:

Believe me, I'd rather kill myself than try to create some at least somewhat logical conclusion for the mess D&D made in the show. I honestly don't see a satisfying way out of the show's increasingly nonsensical "story".

Yeah, they have made a big mess, and no matter what they do, it's likely to seem tacked on.

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Believe me, I'd rather kill myself than try to create some at least somewhat logical conclusion for the mess D&D made in the show. I honestly don't see a satisfying way out of the show's increasingly nonsensical "story".

The show doesn't care about plot, that is why the "plots" are stupid and make no sense.  The show plots have made no sense even before they ran out of book materials.

However, that is not reason to think that they are not still going to hit the main beats of GRRM story and finish it off the same way.

[Tifani]

12 minutes ago, StepStark said:

For some reason this is common misconception on this forum. If you think that he added "unnecessary nonsense" in AFFC and ADWD, I'd suggest that you watch the video I linked in my previous post and see what that guy has to say about AFFC and ADWD. He explains the shift in the story's focus, and I think that all those "problems" people "see" in AFFC and ADWD are caused by people missing the deliberate shift by Martin. Once you realize he didn't "loose the control over his story", you'll probably see that all those changes and "cuts" that D&D made in the show actually make no sense at all.

lol

i don't need to watch some guy's video to form an opinion. i think GRRM is an overall stronger writer than D&D but AFFC and ADWD were undoubtedly weaker than the first 3 books to me. and he absolutely did lose control of the story, otherwise he wouldn't have had such trouble with the Mereeneese knot . He also himself admitted hat a lot of TWOW is going to be getting certain character together and the culling out of characters. once again, these are not things that he would have to worry about if he hadn't made such a mess with AFFC and ADWD.

either way, this is not the place to have a debate about AFFC and ADWD. but just understand that not everyone's going to consider the tertiary storylines and characters that GRRM added to be important, hence not caring that they weren't included in the show. 

[TheCasualObserver]

1 minute ago, Tifani said:

lol

i don't need to watch some guy's video to form an opinion. i think GRRM is an overall stronger writer than D&D but AFFC and ADWD were undoubtedly weaker than the first 3 books to me. and he absolutely did lose control of the story, otherwise he wouldn't have had such trouble with the Mereeneese knot . He also himself admitted hat a lot of TWOW is going to be getting certain character together and the culling out of characters. once again, these are not things that he would have to worry about if he hadn't made such a mess with AFFC and ADWD.

either way, this is not the place to have a debate about AFFC and ADWD. but just understand that not everyone's going to consider the tertiary storylines and characters that GRRM added to be important, hence not caring that they weren't included in the show. 

But it's not just about the characters of the two latter books, it's also about the tone. What happens after war? How do people cope? How do they rationalize their actions? 

AFFC and ADWD are about consequences. The Stark cause has failed, so where do the remaining Starks go from here? The Lannisters have won the war, but now they are losing the peace. Tyrion's life as he knew it is over, so what does he do next?

Going from that to Season 6 is jarring not because of missing characters, but because the sensationalist nature of GOT in it's current form ignores consequence all the time. Deaths and battles are more frequent than ever, yet the consequences of them are nowhere to be seen.  

[Tifani]

5 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

But it's not just about the characters of the two latter books, it's also about the tone. What happens after war? How do people cope? How do they rationalize their actions? 

AFFC and ADWD are about consequences. The Stark cause has failed, so where do the remaining Starks go from here? The Lannisters have won the war, but now they are losing the peace. Tyrion's life as he knew it is over, so what does he do next?

Going from that to Season 6 is jarring not because of missing characters, but because the sensationalist nature of GOT in it's current form ignores consequence all the time. Deaths and battles are more frequent than ever, yet the consequences of them are nowhere to be seen.  

i never said that season 6 was a well written season. the only real point i'm trying to make is that i think the show and books will have the same ending.  tbh i don't have much of an opinion on season 6 in general except that the whole jon/sansa and arya storylines were a mess. 

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, Tifani said:

and he absolutely did lose control of the story, otherwise he wouldn't have had such trouble with the Mereeneese knot

You are certain of this... based on what exactly? Do you even know what Mereeneese knot is about? Was it about Tyrion getting out of there never meeting Dany? Was it about Dany riding Drogon? Was it about creating the right setting for the Ironborn invasion? Was it about Quentyn dying while freeing dragons? LOL, people like you keep talking about "Mereeneese knot" and other things as if you have absolute understanding of them, but I don't think you can actually explain what all those terms actually mean. I don't think that anyone other than Martin really knows what "Mereeneese knot" really means. Correct me if I'm wrong.

3 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

He also himself admitted hat a lot of TWOW is going to be getting certain character together and the culling out of characters. once again, these are not things that he would have to worry about if he hadn't made such a mess with AFFC and ADWD.

He was just describing what should be very logical to anyone: the story got way bigger than it was, and it's getting harder and harder to joggle all those storylines into a designed endgame. That's the nature of writing epics like this one. It is not an indication that he "made a mess". Of course, the entire story may turn out to be a mess if Martin doesn't come up with a fitting conclusion, but so far there is no indication that it's going to turn out that way. On the contrary, he seems to be capable of finishing complex and complicated storylines in a very satisfying manner, as proven by the war of the five kings.