Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[DMC]

6 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, they missed the point. They love doing the opposite of the books, and there's no better example than Ellaria.

I'd say Jaime's relationship/attitude towards Cersei is, if not a better example, a more significant one.  But yeah, it would have been nice to have someone echo Ellaria's plea to stop the cycle of violence in the show.  Really, it'd only take a couple minutes.

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, that's opposite, too. They do that quite a lot, 180's on characters. Many of the characters have become unrecognizable from the book characters.

And just looking at the show, changed in inorganic ways from who they once were on the show, often varying wildly within the same season as the plot dictates.

And in some cases, back to square one, like nothing since then has mattered at all.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Hey, remember when Yara wanted to put an end to the bloodshed for that one episode last season, until the next episode when she didn't? Those were the days.

[Le Cygne]

So looking some more at the recent interview, GRRM talks about how he wanted it to be not like Lord of the Rings, he's saying that in his story, when Beric and Catelyn and Jon return as wights, there are tragic consequences to returning from death. He's making that point over and over again:

In my version of the story, Catelyn Stark is re-imbued with a kind of life and becomes this vengeful wight who galvanizes a group of people around her and is trying to exact her revenge on the riverlands...

And here I’ve got to get back to Tolkien again. And I’m going to seem like I’m criticizing him, which I guess I am. It’s always bothered me that Gandalf comes back from the dead. The Red Wedding for me in Lord of the Rings is the mines of Moria, and when Gandalf falls — it’s a devastating moment! I didn’t see it coming at 13 years old, it just totally took me by surprise. Gandalf can’t die! He’s the guy that knows all of the things that are happening! He’s one of the main heroes here! Oh god, what are they going to do without Gandalf? Now it’s just the hobbits?! And Boromir, and Aragorn? Well, maybe Aragorn will do, but it’s just a huge moment. A huge emotional investment.

And then in the next book, he shows up again, and it was six months between the American publications of those books, which seemed like a million years to me. So all that time I thought Gandalf was dead, and now he’s back and now he’s Gandalf the White. And, ehh, he’s more or less the same as always, except he’s more powerful. It always felt a little bit like a cheat to me. And as I got older and considered it more, it also seemed to me that death doesn’t make you more powerful. That’s, in some ways, me talking to Tolkien in the dialogue, saying, “Yeah, if someone comes back from being dead, especially if they suffer a violent, traumatic death, they’re not going to come back as nice as ever." That’s what I was trying to do, and am still trying to do, with the Lady Stoneheart character.

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

[Le Cygne]

And to go with what others are saying, GRRM is not painting Lady Stoneheart's revenge as a positive thing. She's dead set (pardon the pun) on one thing, to the extent she can't see anything else. The consequences of what she's doing to the people she once cared about, and to others. That goes back to what Ellaria said (and why the show gets it so wrong, that they make Ellaria the opposite is telling):

"Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him... If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hands on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?”

[Le Cygne]

Also GRRM's Beric is not a hero with a light saber who is featured in trailers like the latest hit movie, just saying. He's tragically flawed, too. There are tragic consequences when humanity is lost, that's what I think he's saying. Therefore... it's important to focus on that humanity, for the other characters to dig deep and find that within themselves.

[divica]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Also GRRM's Beric is not a hero with a light saber who is featured in trailers like the latest hit movie, just saying. He's tragically flawed, too. There are tragic consequences when humanity is lost, that's what I think he's saying. Therefore... it's important to focus on that humanity, for the other characters to dig deep and find that within themselves.

Who decided on that pose to ignite the sword should be fired

[SerProle]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

And to go with what others are saying, GRRM is not painting Lady Stoneheart's revenge as a positive thing. She's dead set (pardon the pun) on one thing, to the extent she can't see anything else. The consequences of what she's doing to the people she once cared about, and to others. That goes back to what Ellaria said (and why the show gets it so wrong, that they make Ellaria the opposite is telling):

"Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him... If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hands on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?”

Great posts. Am I honeypotting that GRRM gave this interview about consequences and tragedy right before a new show season being hyped as DARKER and full of VENGEANCE and FLAMING SWORDS? Another one of his sideways digs at the show? I mean, he volunteered the really juicy stuff, its not like he was asked specifically about any of the things that have real impact by being put on the spot.

[TheCasualObserver]

13 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I'd say Jaime's relationship/attitude towards Cersei is, if not a better example, a more significant one.  But yeah, it would have been nice to have someone echo Ellaria's plea to stop the cycle of violence in the show.  Really, it'd only take a couple minutes.

If I can discuss Jaime and Cersei's relationship in the show, it's clear that things are very different in the books. In the show, Jame still loves Cersei and wants to protect her and help her. I have no doubt that following her blowing up the sept, their relationship will finally come to an end and eventually this will lead to Jaime killing her. 

I guess to the show fans this is fine. Jaime loves Cersei - Cersei does some bad things - Jaime stops loving Cersei. It's simplistic and easy to follow.

But compared with the books it's so bland. The thing that most interests me about these two characters is that the fact that they are brother and sister is by no means the worst element of their relationship. It's based on lies, manipulation and pride, not love. When Jaime has his little accident, it fundamentally changes him as a person, and that change is all it takes for him to gradually come to a very mature and reasoned conclusion; Cersei is bad for him, he is bad for Cersei and they want fundamentally different things and always did. It is this realization which fuels his break from her. You'll notice that this happens long before Cersei blows anything up (assuming that she will in the books) and before all their children are dead, or Cersei makes and insane and unsustainable power grab. It is a decision based on the nature of the characters - Jaime is a rather callous man even if he is sympathetic, so it makes sense for GRRM to break them up based on the differences in their character rather than causing the break up due to a monstrous or unforgivable act, which Jaime himself has committed and rationalized.

Whatever GRRM's faults, he has an excellent grasp on characterization - I consider it his best asset as a writer - which the show simply cannot compete with in any meaningful sense whatsoever.  

[The Bear Who Knocks]

>The emmy for best writers went to these people

http://imgur.com/a/Bc4MP 

[teej6]

44 minutes ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

>The emmy for best writers went to these people

http://imgur.com/a/Bc4MP 

This reads like bad fanfic. It will all be over soon. I just hope GRRM finishes the books or else this shit will be canon.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

On 7/13/2017 at 1:00 PM, Le Cygne said:

Now this is interesting, GRRM:

And Jon Snow, too, is drained by the experience of coming back from the dead on the show.

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

 

53 minutes ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

>The emmy for best writers went to these people

http://imgur.com/a/Bc4MP 

 

7 minutes ago, teej6 said:

This reads like bad fanfic. It will all be over soon. I just hope GRRM finishes the books or else this shit will be canon.

 WOW, reading these two links was night and day, I'd say fire and ice, but......the D's don't really deserve that, LOL  Even GRRM just talking about his books comes off much more satisfying that OH NO.....SPOILERS...of the D&D Dreck still to come.  I really can't wait til it's over, although I still have a touch of sadness realizing how well most of the actors could have done with better material than the D's are giving them. 

[Philokles]

In regard to the Frey poisoning - "I wonder if it was the wine?"

[divica]

1 hour ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

>The emmy for best writers went to these people

http://imgur.com/a/Bc4MP 

They won the emmy last year?

From the first 5 seasons I could understand because flaws or no flaws they are heavilly inspired in great books, but season 6 arcs were awful! several characters had split personalities or illogical stories...

[teej6]

45 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

 

 

 WOW, reading these two links was night and day, I'd say fire and ice, but......the D's don't really deserve that, LOL  Even GRRM just talking about his books comes off much more satisfying that OH NO.....SPOILERS...of the D&D Dreck still to come.  I really can't wait til it's over, although I still have a touch of sadness realizing how well most of the actors could have done with better material than the D's are giving them. 

You are absolutely right. Just about anything GRRM says/writes regarding the books is better than anything these hacks can come up with.

The spoiler on Arya is so awful, I have no words. But of course the fans of the show are going to lap it up and say how badass she is. Through Arya's storyline, GRRM is in someway trying to describe the trauma and mind set of child soldiers. He shows much of the horrors of war through Arya's eyes --how the pain, death, and torture of people around her have sort of desensitized and numbed her to all of it.  But for D&D, Arya is just the stereotypical badass deliverer of Stark vengeance. She's the cool child assasin. And like you said, some of the actors on the show are really good. Maise Williams especially could have done a lot if they had given more depth to her character.

[Philokles]

26 minutes ago, teej6 said:

You are absolutely right. Just about anything GRRM says/writes regarding the books is better than anything these hacks can come up with.

The spoiler on Arya is so awful, I have no words. But of course the fans of the show are going to lap it up and say how badass she is. Through Arya's storyline, GRRM is in someway trying to describe the trauma and mind set of child soldiers. He shows much of the horrors of war through Arya's eyes --how the pain, death, and torture of people around her have sort of desensitized and numbed her to all of it.  But for D&D, Arya is just the stereotypical badass deliverer of Stark vengeance. She's the cool child assasin. And like you said, some of the actors on the show are really good. Maise Williams especially could have done a lot if they had given more depth to her character.

It is terrible. Not only have they totally misunderstood her character, but they then glorify the misinterpretation.

[Ser Wun Wun]

The leaker said his scripts are all from before shooting actually began, so maybe some of that cringey dialogue got tweaked.  That Arya/Sansa is really gonna make me squirm if not.

'You are the Lady of Winterfell, I am just the executioner' 

[Meera of Tarth]

4 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

If I can discuss Jaime and Cersei's relationship in the show, it's clear that things are very different in the books. In the show, Jame still loves Cersei and wants to protect her and help her. I have no doubt that following her blowing up the sept, their relationship will finally come to an end and eventually this will lead to Jaime killing her. 

I guess to the show fans this is fine. Jaime loves Cersei - Cersei does some bad things - Jaime stops loving Cersei. It's simplistic and easy to follow.

But compared with the books it's so bland. The thing that most interests me about these two characters is that the fact that they are brother and sister is by no means the worst element of their relationship. It's based on lies, manipulation and pride, not love. When Jaime has his little accident, it fundamentally changes him as a person, and that change is all it takes for him to gradually come to a very mature and reasoned conclusion; Cersei is bad for him, he is bad for Cersei and they want fundamentally different things and always did. It is this realization which fuels his break from her. You'll notice that this happens long before Cersei blows anything up (assuming that she will in the books) and before all their children are dead, or Cersei makes and insane and unsustainable power grab. It is a decision based on the nature of the characters - Jaime is a rather callous man even if he is sympathetic, so it makes sense for GRRM to break them up based on the differences in their character rather than causing the break up due to a monstrous or unforgivable act, which Jaime himself has committed and rationalized.

Whatever GRRM's faults, he has an excellent grasp on characterization - I consider it his best asset as a writer - which the show simply cannot compete with in any meaningful sense whatsoever.  

I should disagree with that. I think that If I have never read the books after season 4 as I did, I'd find the never-ending twincest plot in s5,s6,and especially s7 after the sept incident  as a dumb and very irrititating one. I'd like to think many show-only watchers think the same.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, divica said:

They won the emmy last year?

From the first 5 seasons I could understand because flaws or no flaws they are heavilly inspired in great books, but season 6 arcs were awful! several characters had split personalities or illogical stories...

I have to say that season 5 is very far from being heavily inspired in the 4th/5th book (except for maybe the first part of the NW's plot) 

PS: I also think that some random parts of Arya's arc (the cinematographic ones were well-adapted as well, though)

The other things they adapted properly were also Aemon's scenes with Sam and also Hardhome, which was good action material (not that I especially like that episode or that I'd rate it 9.9).

The rest was so, so, so badly adapted imo. And I better don't remember Shireen's story with her father.

[Meera of Tarth]

I was about to say that Jorah's journey with Tyrion was not badly adapted but then I remembered that Tyrion convinces the Queen in one scene that he should be his new advisor and Jorah was shit. He is The Gift    after all. Oh, season 5, bad memories.

What a pitty Season 7 leaks are even worse.