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Little Scribe of Naath

Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It doesn't make sense for Tarly to double cross Tyrells for Cersei. This is the guy who follows the eye for an eye to a T in justice and who thinks a woman who oversteps her role beyond being a pretty wife who bears children needs a good raping. The guy is ruthless, expansive and might double cross Tyrells for another male contender, but for a woman like Cersei who was forced to do a walk of shame? The vassals who tried to doublecross the Tyrells we've already met - Merryweather.

Why would Tarly care?  He is getting what he wants, the Reach.  Show Tarly is slightly different than book Tarly but does the Randyll Tarly portrayed on the show doublecrossing the Tyrells shock you? It does not shock me.

Whether you like or do not like Aegon is irrelevant in a plot sense. He's there to avoid the silly plot as portrayed by the leaks - to get Cersei out of KL and/or make her weaker than she already is.  If you don't at least have her flee to CR, then you get this complete unrealistic situation as S7 - how the hell is it possible she's still ordering people around at the IT? Fine, if they cut Aegon out of it, but prolonging the Cersei stuff is even worse than Ramsay S6 arc. They should have a character, who was introdiced in S6 be the one to sideline her.

And FAegon is a stupid plot in the books.  It is so telenovela..  Ohh Rhaegar's son is alive and in hiding.  It takes away from both Dany and Jon's arcs.  And Cersei winning a few battles does not shock me.  I think that I posted all the ways Dany's invasion could go wrong.  The Cersei twist (i.e. the bad guys win some) is a good one.  What is silly is the wight hunt.  They could have Cersei winning to an extent that Dan needs Jon as an ally and Jon and Dany's forces taking KL.  That would be a realistic plot.

 

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56 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

Why would Tarly care?  He is getting what he wants, the Reach.  Show Tarly is slightly different than book Tarly but does the Randyll Tarly portrayed on the show doublecrossing the Tyrells shock you? It does not shock me.

My point was that the whole Cersei on the IT plot is as stupid as the North being forgetful and the whole mess of a plot of Umbers backing Ramsay. Have I given you any impression that I'm "shocked" of what the show does?  The show has jumped the shark since 5.2 for me, so imo, yes they can have show-Tarly be like Umbers - stupid.

The problem with Tarly doublecrossing Tyrells is stupid in any realistic sense, because he is 1 House and does not have a say over 100k men at arms. But I expect the show to do anything but smart and logical. I also made the specific point that what happens on the show is a result of the show making so many changes to the show that it certainly says very little of what's coming in the books.

56 minutes ago, kg1982 said:

And FAegon is a stupid plot in the books.  It is so telenovela..  Ohh Rhaegar's son is alive and in hiding.  It takes away from both Dany and Jon's arcs.  And Cersei winning a few battles does not shock me.  I think that I posted all the ways Dany's invasion could go wrong.  The Cersei twist (i.e. the bad guys win some) is a good one.  What is silly is the wight hunt.  They could have Cersei winning to an extent that Dan needs Jon as an ally and Jon and Dany's forces taking KL.  That would be a realistic plot.

Strange how fAegon takes away from Dany or Jon's arc, when neither met him and all of their decisions were entirely unrelated to him as well as what happened to them is completely unrelated to them. fAegon has no influence whatsoever on Jon's arc in aDwD, and will not influence Jon's arc in tWoW anytime soon either. fAegon will have no impact on Dany's plot whatsoever, until she gets to Westeros. 

Cersei has been winning since aGoT: Bran didn't remember, she had Sansa's wolf killed, she had Robert killed before he ever found out about her and Jaime, she got ahead of Ned, Stannis didn't take KL, her father made Tyrion unimportant again and the laughing stock of court with the marriage to Sansa, Tyrion would have been found guilty at his normal trial because everyone was waiting in line to be a witness for her, Gregor won the trial by battle and was turned into an undead hulk, because Tywin died she didn't have to marry anyone anymore and became regent, Margaery and all her cousins and a whole bunch of knights are in prison (well Mace got his daughter out for the time being, but everybody else is still in there), and Varys just killed Kevan who had been made regent. That's the list so far in the books. Yes, Joffrey died in her arms and she was made to walk naked in the city and be shamed and she didn't get to have Tyrion killed yet. Those are the sole few things she "lost" on. That's not winning a "few" battles, but only "losing a very few". The one or two mistakes a character made in the books has had devestating results, the annihilation kind. Cersei has made many mistakes and the real bite-back is required to come.

George could not speed up Dany's or Jon's arc any faster. He didn't stall them for Aegon, but Aegon is part of the solution to prevent Cersei from being in that "I win again" position after 5 books, because he felt it was impossible for him to speed Dany and Jon into endgame position. If Cersei keeps winning in book 6 he would make her a Black Hole Sue. And no, I think George has no intention of making Roose, Ramsay, Littlefinger or Cersei Black Hole Sues. That is why he needs other characters to derail Cersei: aFfC and aDwD all set up the thrid act where Cersei begins to fall - Crownlands turning against her with the "ward of Rosby" and Bronn at Stokeworth, Lannister army being taken down in numbers in the Riverlands by the underground rebellion there, and Aegon beign the perfect excuse for the allies she had to say "eff her... an unreliable ally is no ally. She doesn't allow us to defend our own region against enemies. She puts our queen/daughter/sister/granddaughter in jail." The QG she has are either cowards, mercenaries or dumbos and she's piling up mistake after mistake. George placed all the plot cyvasse plot-pawns in place to remove her from KL by the end of tWoW. And in Aegon's case, the cyvasse player wasn't Varys, but Tyrion. Tyrion was the one who moved a "dragon" to Westeros in his revenge on Cersei.

But the show loves Black Hole Sues. They stall Ramsay and have Stannis being a total moron in S5 and invent a fNorth where nobody remembers anything and is fine with siding with Ramsay. They stall Littlefinger by nobody demanding his head and cringe in fear of him, even if LF has been dumbed down to the absurd, and now some High Sschool games will be the cause of his head on a spike. And Cersei manages to keep pulling armies out of her hat. I'm not shocked that the show would do this at all. But it's moronic plot.

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2 hours ago, kg1982 said:

 

Why would Randyll Tarly (or anyone else for that matter) trust, listen to or otherwise engage with a an unhinged woman like Cersei? It's completely against character and common sense.

How is the Cersei twist a good one? We don't even know how she could be capable of that or why anyone other than Qyburn and Ungregor still follow her orders. 

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1.  The whole idea of the North remembering is actually Disney compared to most of Martin's politics.  The Northern bannermen were willing to  jump in defense of the Starks without even a grumble about Robb's stupid decisions.   The show's portrayal where some houses like the Mormonts sided with Sansa and Jon, some like the Glovers were nuetral, and some like the Umbers and Karstarks were hostile.  Very little was made of Robb's bone headed decision to break his marriage contract with the Freys.  The North should have been angrier with Robb than it was.

2.  The Tarlys are one of the Tyrells most important bannermen, so it has to have an impact.  Perhaps many abandon Lady Olenna.  

3.  FAegon takes away from the impact of the actual hidden son of Rhaegar, Jon, and the actual real Targ looking to avenge her family and get her throne back, Dany.  There does not need to be an additional milquetoast plot device masquerading as Rhaegar's son.  

4.  Dany is not going to just waltz in and take KL.  What fun is that.  Cersei was always going to rack up some victories.  I told people this at the end of Season 6.  Sheesh.  That is actually good storytelling rather than Jon's wight hunt.  

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10 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Why would Randyll Tarly (or anyone else for that matter) trust, listen to or otherwise engage with a an unhinged woman like Cersei? It's completely against character and common sense.

How is the Cersei twist a good one? We don't even know how she could be capable of that or why anyone other than Qyburn and Ungregor still follow her orders. 

Tarly does not trust Cersei.  Cersei is giving him something he wants.  She is useful to him.

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The Tarlys are going against the rest of the Reach (Hello lord Hightower , who has as much men and forces as the Tyrells do/did), against Dorne, 100k Horse riding Dothraki rapists, Unsullied who really just fight to kill and hopefully cuddle with someone after, 3 dragons ,1/3 of the Iron Born and last but not least, The Imp and his magical Dwarf Cock and they think that it will end well? I thought Sam's dad was supposed to be smart. Oh well.

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11 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The Tarlys are going against the rest of the Reach (Hello lord Hightower , who has as much men and forces as the Tyrells do/did), against Dorne, 100k Horse riding Dothraki rapists, Unsullied who really just fight to kill and hopefully cuddle with someone after, 3 dragons ,1/3 of the Iron Born and last but not least, The Imp and his magical Dwarf Cock and they think that it will end well? I thought Sam's dad was supposed to be smart. Oh well.

With Satannis's death, Randyll became the Best Military Commander in Westeros. And like being a direwolf or a husband of Marge Boleyn, or a Stark for that matter, with that title comes sudden onset stupidity and eventually death. 

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16 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

With Satannis's death, Randyll became the Best Military Commander in Westeros. And like being a direwolf or a husband of Marge Boleyn, or a Stark for that matter, with that title comes sudden onset stupidity and eventually death. 

I know right, however we can count on the show's hero/heroine to endure, GOOD QUEEN CERSEI and the thickest Plot Armor ever F ing created ! Long make she Reign. :rofl:

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3 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I know right, however we can count on the show's hero/heroine to endure, GOOD QUEEN CERSEI and the thickest Plot Armor ever F ing created ! Long make she Reign. :rofl:

And her incest baby, too. Because what the show needed was another incest baby.

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5 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The Tarlys are going against the rest of the Reach (Hello lord Hightower , who has as much men and forces as the Tyrells do/did), against Dorne, 100k Horse riding Dothraki rapists, Unsullied who really just fight to kill and hopefully cuddle with someone after, 3 dragons ,1/3 of the Iron Born and last but not least, The Imp and his magical Dwarf Cock and they think that it will end well? I thought Sam's dad was supposed to be smart. Oh well.

Totally agree. That's like saying it's "more realistic" that Glovers and Umbers and basically every other lord will not help out Ned's "son" against the Boltons who actively planned and murdered their king and many of their family and men at the RW, because the king married the wrong girl. That's as nonsensical as killing Doran to avenge the death of Doran's sister and brother who were killed by Lannisters. 

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57 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Totally agree. That's like saying it's "more realistic" that Glovers and Umbers and basically every other lord will not help out Ned's "son" against the Boltons who actively planned and murdered their king and many of their family and men at the RW, because the king married the wrong girl. That's as nonsensical as killing Doran to avenge the death of Doran's sister and brother who were killed by Lannisters. 

Yeah. The thing is, it makes sense for the Karstarks to be in the Bolton's side, because of the whole situation with their Lord and Robb. Even then, you still have Alys. The other houses, not so much. Okay, Robb married the wrong girl. Yet, Roose betrayed him, murdered him and several members of the noble families of the North. Glovers and Umbers lost family members at the Red Wedding! How does that make any sense? They should pretty much grovel at Sansa and Jon's feet when they appeared. 

Cersei's plot is pretty much how NOT to write an adaptation 101. She's clearly a stand-in for Aegon, without all the reasons that make him such a powerful figure. She's been publicly humiliated, the Lannister army is scattered, according to the show there are no more mines in Casterly Rock, she's indebted to the Iron Bank, she has no claim whatsoever to the IT, yet she still manages to win some battles? House Lannister should be ruined, but not according to the D&D and plot gifts. 

 

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57 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

Yeah. The thing is, it makes sense for the Karstarks to be in the Bolton's side, because of the whole situation with their Lord and Robb. Even then, you still have Alys. The other houses, not so much. Okay, Robb married the wrong girl. Yet, Roose betrayed him, murdered him and several members of the noble families of the North. Glovers and Umbers lost family members at the Red Wedding! How does that make any sense? They should pretty much grovel at Sansa and Jon's feet when they appeared. 

Cersei's plot is pretty much how NOT to write an adaptation 101. She's clearly a stand-in for Aegon, without all the reasons that make him such a powerful figure. She's been publicly humiliated, the Lannister army is scattered, according to the show there are no more mines in Casterly Rock, she's indebted to the Iron Bank, she has no claim whatsoever to the IT, yet she still manages to win some battles? House Lannister should be ruined, but not according to the D&D and plot gifts. 

 

Exactly. It's too much Tabula Rasa thinking per season for the villains. They add up the mistakes for the good guys and have each point cost a lot, but the villains can get as sloppy as they want, because with each new season it's like they whipe them from their memory, because the villain "must win some too". A villain may be broke, betray and break every promise, murder and kill off anyone, including whole families and be outnumbered by all the good guys, but "hey it's Disney if they lose"????? No that just means that even when the heroes worked hard for their armies, weapons and goodies at great cost, the villain gets the plot gifted to them, and so they give us Villain Sues.

I don't mind so much that Tywin (and by extension Cersei) was lucky with Roose already setting up Robb the moment he went South and get the Reach army gifted to him because of Stannis killing Renly by shadow, but Tarly never showed the level of betrayal to the Tyrells in the past at all, nor does he have the excuse like Roose to think - well the one who proposes for me to betray my lords greatly outnumbers me. Freys and Roose were going to betray Robb, regardless of whom he married. Had he married a Frey, they would still have had the RW, because canon-Roose was already sabotaging Robb by having his most loyal vassals and armies killed or captured at the Green Fork, sent them to Duskendale and was quite tardy or not doing being pro-active in keeping the Ford, Darry, etc, while his son (in charge of the garrisson) wreaked havoc with the Hornwood lands and was out to get Bran and Rickon killed and stabbed the WF garrisson in the back. The show did away with all of that, making it look as if Roose only got the idea of betrayal once Robb broke his promise. But at least by then Tywin had superior numbers, and those would have made the Freys kill Robb at the Twins even if it was Robb who wedded Roslin. 

But since S6 apparently vassals only have grudges against their natural allies, never ever to the murderers of their family and according to the leaks of S7 vassals choose the outnumbered enemy side. It's plain stupid and totally unreal. It makes vassals total cardboard props that act against their own survival and intelligence, because they need a villain. You get this completely lopsided torturous extension, to then suddenly have the villain be so stupid just before the moment they're being killed - as we saw with Ramsay when he was quick enough to shoot Wun Wun full of arrows but only shot arrows at Jon when Jon started to charge him.

In the 80s the comic writers and adventure shows/movies/series thought they catered to female audiences by adding one strong warrior woman in the group of men, because critics had begged them to write "strong female characters" for once instead of the "damsel in distress trope". Audience wanted a strong personality, not a physically strong woman who's only there to kill a villain once in a while... as in "a guy with a female body". And so "strong woman" became a trope as cardboardish as "damsel in distress". Since the audience doesn't go for the "hero always wins at the end of the episode and the villains are red shirts" anymore, series and shows must go beyond the episode to episode formula and moved to season to season formula. aGoT is supposed to even go beyond season to season and actually tell an epic, but after S4 they've gone season to season and have the villain basically win all the time for as long as they want and need, totally beyond the realistic, until a minute before they're to be killed. And what is the result - we're back in the 80s watching Robin Hood and gang and redshirts taking up Sherrif of Nothingham and redshirts have at it episode to episode, with the redshirts dying but maintaining status quo until the very last episode when the show pulls the plug and has the Sherrif killed. Ffs, get a new villain instead.

Guess what George was doing: introduced Euron to become the human villain that makes the reader think Cersei wasn't all that bad after all, and introduced fAegon to get Cersei out of KL and be the one that Dany has to oppose, thereby making Dany reconquering Westeros questionable, because as far as she knows he's her nephew and did what she wanted to do (and what the reader expected her to do) without dragons - reinstate the Targs on the IT and oust Cersei and Lannisters who've had exclusive power over the IT since the first book... and this guy may be entitled, but no more than Dany, and he's not as cruel and stupid as Viserys.  

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8 hours ago, TepidHands said:

With Satannis's death, Randyll became the Best Military Commander in Westeros. And like being a direwolf or a husband of Marge Boleyn, or a Stark for that matter, with that title comes sudden onset stupidity and eventually death. 

was Stannis the Best commander in Westeros? i am imagining what he did in S5 with Shireen and how he lost because of this (his men leaving him) to Ramsay and 20 good men......

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4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

And her incest baby, too. Because what the show needed was another incest baby.

Maybe it will be monsterous in appearance when she loses it, kinda funny, poetically if it would be dwarfish as she hates her brother so much.

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2 hours ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

Yeah. The thing is, it makes sense for the Karstarks to be in the Bolton's side, because of the whole situation with their Lord and Robb. Even then, you still have Alys. The other houses, not so much. Okay, Robb married the wrong girl. Yet, Roose betrayed him, murdered him and several members of the noble families of the North. Glovers and Umbers lost family members at the Red Wedding! How does that make any sense? They should pretty much grovel at Sansa and Jon's feet when they appeared. 

Most of the families didn't outright side with the Boltons.  They didn't side with anyone.  They just didn't particularly want to help Jon and Sansa.  The fact that there wasn't a peep of anger about Robb or the fact that his boneheaded political decisions screwed them over in the books is not realistic. 

Cersei's plot is pretty much how NOT to write an adaptation 101. She's clearly a stand-in for Aegon, without all the reasons that make him such a powerful figure. She's been publicly humiliated, the Lannister army is scattered, according to the show there are no more mines in Casterly Rock, she's indebted to the Iron Bank, she has no claim whatsoever to the IT, yet she still manages to win some battles? House Lannister should be ruined, but not according to the D&D and plot gifts. 

As an antagonist, I prefer Cersei, not one dimensional telenovela brat FAegon.  I hate, hate, hate that character in the books, how he appeared out of nowhere in ADWD, and how we are somehow supposed to root for him as a hero.  Ugh.. The boy's only use for me is as a yummy Drogon snack.

And it isn't shocking that FAegon didn't appear in the TV show is adaption 101.  There are a gazillion characters in the show already; they aren't going to introduce another important character in Season 5.  If anything, FAegon's plot in the books in bad storytelling.  There are many ways to make Cersei a more powerful adversary.  

 

 

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HBO use Winterfell shots to promote their new 2017 shows preview clip:

A shot of Sansa in her unfortunate wig, Jon looking concerned at the Winterfell battlements and a shot of Arya on horse back looking into the distance dressed all in black with her cloak looking like Jon/Ned. 

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/11/28/hbo-game-of-thrones-season-7-hbo-jon-arya-sansa/

 

NO BRAN PREVIEW SHOT. I hate hbo sometimes.

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6 hours ago, DutchArya said:

HBO use Winterfell shots to promote their new 2017 shows preview clip:

A shot of Sansa in her unfortunate wig, Jon looking concerned at the Winterfell battlements and a shot of Arya on horse back looking into the distance dressed all in black with her cloak looking like Jon/Ned. 

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/11/28/hbo-game-of-thrones-season-7-hbo-jon-arya-sansa/

 

NO BRAN PREVIEW SHOT. I hate hbo sometimes.

Ohhh so those are real, umm idk

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8 hours ago, DutchArya said:

HBO use Winterfell shots to promote their new 2017 shows preview clip:

A shot of Sansa in her unfortunate wig, Jon looking concerned at the Winterfell battlements and a shot of Arya on horse back looking into the distance dressed all in black with her cloak looking like Jon/Ned. 

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/11/28/hbo-game-of-thrones-season-7-hbo-jon-arya-sansa/

 

NO BRAN PREVIEW SHOT. I hate hbo sometimes.

Sansa's look is a bit weird....??? And Jon seems sad, maybe it's because he doesn't like being King when Bran deserves it.

(but I like Arya!)

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