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Little Scribe of Naath

Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

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BTW, title of ep7 is supposedly “The Dragon and the Wolf.” Is it just me, or are titles particularly lazy this season?

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It's not just you. I laughed out loud when I heard the title. The other titles this season weren't particulary great either. Same with the titles last season. 

 

BTW here are two good reviews from Los Angles Review of books. The first one about the illogic of this episode and the second one about the portrayl of women: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-thrones-death-enemy/#!

From the first review

Quote

You can rationalize every decision if you want, and you can figure out, retroactively, how actually it made sense: see, he had to attack the one who was loaded up with fire because that was what killed it, if you rewatch the scene, you can see, etc. But come on: we know that that’s never the real reason why things happen the way they do. We are just propping up the show’s stupidity. If you watch the knuckle-dragging “inside the episode” featurette, you can actually hear Weiss and Benioff explain just how hard they worked to think of a contrivance to keep everyone alive, which is basically the clearest articulation I’ve ever seen of this phenomenon: We wanted them not to die, say the creators, so we wrote it so that they don’t die. Lucky break for our heroes that they turned out to be the heroes of the show!

 

And from the second one

Quote

In the other plotline, three women—Arya, Sansa and Brienne—move tensely through claustrophobic rooms. Unlike the men, who are all at their most charming, all three of the women (even Brienne, I’d say, though I suppose this is debatable) act as the worst and most reductive versions of themselves; they mistrust, hurt, and alienate each other. They do this because their fears and anxieties are not, for the writers’ room of Thrones, a source of sympathy or heroism (as the Hound’s fire phobia is, for example). Instead, they are tied to their petty childhood dramas. Whereas the one woman in in the men’s plotline offers sacrifice and support, the one man in the women’s plotline, Petyr Baelish, works to break the women down, divide them, manipulate them. Rather than ending with noble sacrifice and grand feeling, united, holding literal hands as are Jon and Dany in plot one, the women don’t really end at all: the conclusion of the episode shifts from alternating between the adventurers and the women to alternating between the adventurers and the white walkers. What the women are doing at the end, presumably, is sitting alone and thinking fearful and angry thoughts about each other. The scenes in this plotline were so unpleasant to me that I had to fight the urge to fast forward through them.

 

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44 minutes ago, Queen of Procrastination said:

It's not just you. I laughed out loud when I heard the title. The other titles this season weren't particulary great either. Same with the titles last season. 

 

BTW here are two good reviews from Los Angles Review of books. The first one about the illogic of this episode and the second one about the portrayl of women: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/game-thrones-death-enemy/#!

From the first review

 

And from the second one

 

Pretty good article.  I'm pleased that people are finally waking up.  What took them so long?

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12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That would be off-topic, and create debate in a non-debate thread.

Exactly! Wights should have exploded and drop at Hardhome when Jon killed the WW. They didn't. And indeed: the WW died upon his sword meeting Jon's Longclaw back at Hardhome. Now they can duel and it's only when Jon's Longclaw makes contact with the WW's ice armor that he blows up.

They invent and change the rules as they go along, and for one reason only: what makes a cool shot.

Actually in the first fight Jon stops the Ice Spear with longclaw then deals the killing blow...so they were actually consistent. But fire not stopping wights is still BS 

Everyone have already covered every thing i would have ranted about. It just infuriates me that the show has become whatever this is it has become. People are waking up though it seems to be only a few at a time but soon they will see that we are not bitter ust saddened.

Seeing how this turned out when they had Source material to work from really makes it clear to me they should not be doing anything even associated with the Confederacy.

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14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That would be off-topic, and create debate in a non-debate thread.

Exactly! Wights should have exploded and drop at Hardhome when Jon killed the WW. They didn't. And indeed: the WW died upon his sword meeting Jon's Longclaw back at Hardhome. Now they can duel and it's only when Jon's Longclaw makes contact with the WW's ice armor that he blows up.

They invent and change the rules as they go along, and for one reason only: what makes a cool shot.

Same thing as when Beric lights his sword. At one point he uses his hand, the next it just lights on its own.

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3 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

Pretty good article.  I'm pleased that people are finally waking up.  What took them so long?

It looks like they are waking up, but I don't want to get my hopes up yet. We've been there once before. After Episode 5.6 a lot of critics were writing negative stuff about the show and then we got Hardhome and they started praising it again. 

I've stoped watching so I can't judge the episoe itself, but the stuff critics are complaining about has been an issue for several seasons and they are only opening their eyes now. 

Anyway here are more critical reviews in case anyone is interested:

Paste magazine responding to Alan Taylors comments: https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/08/we-think-this-game-of-thrones-director-is-mad-at-u.html?platform=hootsuite

Quote

I shouldn’t have to say this, but fans of a show like Game of Thrones can accept certain fantastical elements—the existence of dragons, for example—while still expecting the writers and directors to adhere to the rules established within that world. Ravens carry messages, but they fly at certain speeds. Dragons breathe fire, but they fly at certain speeds. You get it—what makes people love a series like A Song of Ice and Fire, and to accept dragons and snow zombies and various forms of magic up to and including bodily resurrection, is that George R.R. Martin has so carefully and wonderfully created a realistic world around those supernatural aspects. It’s not just that we want these elements to co-exist with a believable reality—it’s that they must co-exist. Without that, there are no rules, and the entire series would just be vapid, deus-ex-machina-laden nonsense. It would collapse inward on its own bad logic.

It would be alarming for an artist like yourself not to grasp that concept—to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of good fantasy, even while you’re directing the genre’s flagship television program

From Vox: https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/23/16184306/game-of-thrones-season-7-white-walker-dragon-battle-dumb-no-sense?utm_campaign=vox&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Quote

Beyond the Wall was one of the most purely spectacular Game of Thrones episodes to date, but if you think about it for more than a few minutes, the whole thing comes crashing down faster than King’s Landing under a scorned queen’s wildfire siege. More than any other episode of season seven — or really, the entire series so far — the hour glossed over so many logistical hurdles and relied on so many convenient twists to arrive at its ice dragon endgame that it didn’t make much sense at all.

The rest of the article reads like a nice rant

 

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Ah, here's the shot of the bear smacking Jon, so the 4chan leaker was right.

I note Sandor is looking out for Jon, and there was another scene where he fell asleep cuddled up to him. That's 3 for 3 with the Starks. The Dog wants a home with the Starks.

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By the way I just remembered Myrcella's necklace.

Now that everyone in Dorne is dead, I guess we can say conclusively that this was indeed a continuity error when Cersei said there were only two necklaces and we know the show has shown us three.

All Hail the Showrunners.

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I want it to end in 2018.

New buzz word--- penultimate --- last but one in a series of things; second to the last.

"the penultimate chapter of the book"----synonyms ----

next-to-last, second-to-last, second-last

I dunna know the business transactions but it seems to me questionable that an author would let loose of his unfinished baby and a network would pick up an unfinished work.

At this point I will take what I can get. I don’t watch the show as it airs.  Sure Martin’s books will be more in-depth. I just accept that much quoted paraphrased “we know the ending.”  Or was that --- we guessed who Jon Snow’s mother was/is.

Marin releases the WoW & DoS sometime after 2017 but before 2050 when he reaches 102?

Yeah, I’m exaggerating. So in the mean time I have the insinuation of Dany & Jon getting their Targ on. :ack:

Hopefully, the production does their thawg and I get an ending in 2018. Then  Martin can do his walk of shame.

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59 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I want it to end in 2018.

New buzz word--- penultimate --- last but one in a series of things; second to the last.

"the penultimate chapter of the book"----synonyms ----

 

next-to-last, second-to-last, second-last

 

I dunna know the business transactions but it seems to me questionable that an author would let loose of his unfinished baby and a network would pick up an unfinished work.

At this point I will take what I can get. I don’t watch the show as it airs.  Sure Martin’s books will be more in-depth. I just accept that much quoted paraphrased “we know the ending.”  Or was that --- we guessed who Jon Snow’s mother was/is.

Marin releases the WoW & DoS sometime after 2017 but before 2050 when he reaches 102?

Yeah, I’m exaggerating. So in the mean time I have the insinuation of Dany & Jon getting their Targ on. :ack:

Hopefully, the production does their thawg and I get an ending in 2018. Then  Martin can do his walk of shame.

I want GOT to be over, as well, but I'm not sure if they'll be able to manage all the CGI in time for a 2018 release. I do think the show opens itself up to more criticism and less excitement by airing the show later, however. The ratings are at an all-time high this season, and the media is still churning out material like a well-oiled machine, but criticism of the show has grown as well, and most people I know seem less excited to watch the show these days, even with all the dragons. 

George is a great writer, and creativity cannot be rushed. But there's something depressing about finding out how a book series is going to end through a show written by other people before the next book even has a publication date. For instance, I'm really down on the JonxDany relationship -- I find the trope of the two leads falling in love to be beyond boring and unexciting, and I had been glad that it looked like this series was going to be more creative than that. Now we know, courtesy of Alan Taylor, that this is apparently "the point" of the series. Maybe George will write it in a way more ingenuous and less cliche, but how will we know if the next book isn't coming out any time soon? I mean no disrespect to GRRM -- after all, he's the reason this series exists to begin with -- but I'm very disappointed by this.

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I still remember people thinking Jon and Dany being likely to hook up after reading the first book, due to being main characters and almost the same age. Then the possibility of them being nephew and aunt came up.... Personally, I'd like to see them as becoming friends/family members more than having a romance. Either way, GRRM will write it better, I have faith in that. 

So, we're down to two dragons (plus an ice zombie dragon) and, what, one direwolf? Nymeria? Will Ghost reappear nonsensically but dramatically towards the end to... do something? 

I will laugh myself silly if Larry and Cheryl reconcile with Tyrion over the dead Joffrey thing and forget that he did indeed kill their dad. Or it it's just mentioned snidely in passing like Myrcella's death.

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2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I dunna know the business transactions but it seems to me questionable that an author would let loose of his unfinished baby and a network would pick up an unfinished work.

HBO did the same thing with Charlaine Harris and True Blood which makes their decision about GRRM even more confounding. Starz did the same with Diana Gabaldon and Outlander, but given Gabaldon's output, that was a safer bet.

If Jon-Dany Targcest/Boatcest is really the centerpiece of the whole story, then the books not being finished is a big blessing in disguise for me.

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57111/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-targaryen/

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20 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

HBO did the same thing with Charlaine Harris and True Blood which makes their decision about GRRM even more confounding. Starz did the same with Diana Gabaldon and Outlander, but given Gabaldon's output, that was a safer bet.

If Jon-Dany Targcest/Boatcest is really the centerpiece of the whole story, then the books not being finished is a big blessing in disguise for me.

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57111/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-targaryen/

The Outlander series and Starz aren't at all equivalent to HBO and GOT.  The major trajectories of the primary characters were finished long ago by Gabaldon.  As far as she was concerned she wasn't writing any more books with any more of the characters until the magnificent popularity of the Starz series, so she has done one, I think.  But anything connected to the Claire - Jamie canon -- which is what readers really care about -- has been fulfilled and concluded long ago.

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15 minutes ago, Zorral said:

The Outlander series and Starz aren't at all equivalent to HBO and GOT.  The major trajectories of the primary characters were finished long ago by Gabaldon.  As far as she was concerned she wasn't writing any more books with any more of the characters until the magnificent popularity of the Starz series, so she has done one, I think.  But anything connected to the Claire - Jamie canon -- which is what readers really care about -- has been fulfilled and concluded long ago.

I’ll take your word for it. I got stuck with The Fiery Cross because it dropped so many names and I couldn’t follow being awful with names and it was never the right time for me to put a lot of effort into figuring it out. I saw that An Echo in the Bone was written in 2009 and Written in My Own Heart's Blood was written in 2014 while the show premiered in 2014 so I assumed it was ongoing.

Regardless, I couldn’t believe HBO made that deal with GRRM or any author of an unfinished series after Harris and True Blood.

 

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11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I’ll take your word for it. I got stuck with The Fiery Cross because it dropped so many names and I couldn’t follow being awful with names and it was never the right time for me to put a lot of effort into figuring it out. I saw that An Echo in the Bone was written in 2009 and Written in My Own Heart's Blood was written in 2014 while the show premiered in 2014 so I assumed it was ongoing.

 

Regardless, I couldn’t believe HBO made that deal with GRRM or any author of an unfinished series after Harris and True Blood.

 

 

 

With True Blood, they only really followed the first book. After that, the show incorporated some book elements into the story, but otherwise it had a completely different plot. To this day, True Blood is the only series where I've liked the show/movie better than the books, and I think that's probably because they're so different. Charlaine Harris' writing doesn't really do it for me, but Alan Ball's does. 

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25 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I’ll take your word for it. I got stuck with The Fiery Cross because it dropped so many names and I couldn’t follow being awful with names and it was never the right time for me to put a lot of effort into figuring it out. I saw that An Echo in the Bone was written in 2009 and Written in My Own Heart's Blood was written in 2014 while the show premiered in 2014 so I assumed it was ongoing.

 

Regardless, I couldn’t believe HBO made that deal with GRRM or any author of an unfinished series after Harris and True Blood.

 

 

 

Well, I never felt Harris's Sukey series was particularly tied up, or needed to be either.  They stopped featuring her and other characters came to the fore (not that I actually read any of them, but I did look at them). 

But you are so correct about this business, which was a real series whose end game was pointed to which characters survived.  And they did this.  It's one of social media / entertainment's greatest snake oil / flim flammery, which, if the world survives in any recognizable way, will be studied by sociologists and other related ilks for generations -- how did he pull this over on so many people???????

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24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

With True Blood, they only really followed the first book. After that, the show incorporated some book elements into the story, but otherwise it had a completely different plot. To this day, True Blood is the only series where I've liked the show/movie better than the books, and I think that's probably because they're so different. Charlaine Harris' writing doesn't really do it for me, but Alan Ball's does. 

I never expect true adaptations of books to tv and movies as they're just so difficult on so many levels. As long as it's still pulling from the books to some degree, there's a certain quality level and is still respectful towards the author's general vision and feel, it works for me. I'm not upset with GOT's deviations from the books, just the quality of those deviations and the fact it no longer has the same "vibe" as the books. That's why GOT and True Blood are comparable for me.

We differ I guess in that I preferred Harris to Ball, so the less Harris I saw the less I liked the show. I recall reading the middle books of Harris' series as being especially poor choices to adapt so I saw the change in True Blood as necessary given Harris' direction in the books which were still being written while the show was in production.

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Outlander book series isn't finished yet. She tied up things in book 8 so that it could be used as an ending for the series if necessary, but she planned more (she's going to tie back to the sighting of Jamie's ghost in the end).

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8 hours ago, Liver and Onions said:

I still remember people thinking Jon and Dany being likely to hook up after reading the first book, due to being main characters and almost the same age. Then the possibility of them being nephew and aunt came up.... Personally, I'd like to see them as becoming friends/family members more than having a romance. Either way, GRRM will write it better, I have faith in that. 

So, we're down to two dragons (plus an ice zombie dragon) and, what, one direwolf? Nymeria? Will Ghost reappear nonsensically but dramatically towards the end to... do something? 

I will laugh myself silly if Larry and Cheryl reconcile with Tyrion over the dead Joffrey thing and forget that he did indeed kill their dad. Or it it's just mentioned snidely in passing like Myrcella's death.

Ghost will reappear nonsensically and dramatically and then he'll die, because that's how the show rolls. :tantrum: 

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

<>

If Jon-Dany Targcest/Boatcest is really the centerpiece of the whole story, then the books not being finished is a big blessing in disguise for me.

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a57111/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-targaryen/

That Jon and Dany are the main characters became obvious quite quickly in the books for all of us as readers.  That said, no-one can convince me that Jon and Dany falling in "twoo wuv" is the point of GRRM's story unless and until GRRM writes that in the books himself.  And then I would surprised if he didn't subvert that precisely because it's such a cliché (as well as being incestuous).  Is it possible they'll have sex? I suppose (but not if he's a fire wight) but that doesn't necessarily mean main-character lovey-dovey romance.  Could be an alliance marriage or some such.  But any way you cut it, J/D being an end-game romance would be vomit-worthy to me.

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