U.S. Politics: 2016 Election Goes To Overtime

[Weeping Sore]

So here's the most credible guy (Alex Halderman) who was part of the group lobbying the Clinton campaign to call for recounts before the deadlines:

https://boingboing.net/2016/11/23/alex-halderman-we-will-never.html

And some random blogger making a few good points about turnout:

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/youre-not-just-imagining-it-the-hillary-clinton-vs-donald-trump-vote-totals-do-look-rigged/104/

Grain of salt implied, also note in the first link that crucially most of PA counties don't have paper records to truly audit the result, but if manipulation is confirmed in the other two states, all hell will be breaking loose anyway.

ETA: sorry about the first link, you're better off clicking through to Halderman's full post at the bottom of that page.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 hours ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

 

smells like a scam to me

Apparently the filing fee to get a recount in the 3 states in question is 2.2 million, but there are legal fees involved as well which takes the total to roughly 7 million. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/11/24/why-are-people-giving-jill-stein-millions-of-dollars-for-an-election-recount/

 

[Ormond]

My take on the identity politics thing is that is some ways there hasn't been enough of it because those on the left have tended to ignore one of the most important "identities" -- class. Educated liberals have not thought enough about how to communicate a concern for working class people and their problems in the same way they have done so about people in other disadvantaged groups.

There has been too much dismissal of those without college educations as being simply unintelligent or unambitious, especially if they are not members of minority groups. The upper middle class, whether liberal or conservative, doesn't seem to understand the many ways blue collar people in the US are victimized by unjust aspects of our system. I think "White privilege" is real, but I think many liberals have given the impression that a White working class person who cannot easily rise above their circumstances must be stupid or lazy -- it's as if the real discrimination suffered by those who are minorities in an terms of ethnic or physical disabilities issues are the only reasons educated liberals understand for not being "successful". We need to teach understanding and compassion for those from a different class status than we are in the same way we teach it for other minorities. And we need to teach about class as an issue more often to people who are getting college degrees.

I realize this is hard in American culture, partly because of the fact that everyone who is neither a billionaire nor on welfare in the USA thinks of themselves as "middle class." Hopefully this election will help to point out that education is a better measure of class status than income, and Democrats need to find better ways to communicate with those without four year college degrees who aren't ethnic minorities.

[mormont]

1 minute ago, Ormond said:

My take on the identity politics thing is that is some ways there hasn't been enough of it because those on the left have tended to ignore one of the most important "identities" -- class. Educated liberals have not thought enough about how to communicate a concern for working class people and their problems in the same way they have done so about people in other disadvantaged groups.

This is interesting, particularly as this is not my experience, despite the fact that I know we both work with students. (I do so in the UK, but honestly, maybe a quarter of the students I come into contact with are from the US).

I've found students today, if anything, to be more aware of class as an issue. Fifteen years ago, I found them very unaware of it, to the point where many clearly hadn't ever really thought about how the life experience of a working-class kid would be different from their own. These days, it's something they mention almost as often as they do gender, sexuality or race.

On the other hand, I don't deal very much with older liberal Americans except in friendship circles, which are obviously more self-selecting. So maybe I'm missing something.

[Weeping Sore]

"Please, God: like Gollum, let Jill Stein have a totally unforeseen and critical purpose"

@lanyardigan (twitter)

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Obviously the DNC needs to step back, take a really hard look at the big picture, and reset their strategy. I'm not sure "Identity Politics" is as big a problem as some folks here think it is, but it is certainly worth assessing. It still blows my mind that any so called "working class" voter would turn to a Republican candidate in order to "get a job" or "protect my job". At this point you should know that you are going to die of dehydration before any of that sweet trickle down makes it into your mouth.

[Ormond]

I am amazed that 25% of your students come from the US, Mormont, and wonder what sort of program you are part of in Scotland that attracts that many.

Of course US students who are studying in Scotland wouldn't be anywhere near a random sample of American college students. I am very happy to know the American students you know have been thinking about these issues, but I wonder if those who are attracted to Scotland  have characteristics which would attune them more to class. And I doubt if the students who knew from 15 years ago have become more understanding of class than they were back then.

I teach at an American university where the majority of students are first-generation -- they themselves usually come from more working class backgrounds. And most of them don't seem to have thought about the difference between classes -- or how getting a four year college degree is going to inevitably change their interests from their parents' in other ways than just giving them a higher income.

And I hear entirely too many prejudiced comments against working class White people from the older college educated "Liberals" I know here in Omaha.

[Robin Of House Hill]

14 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said:

"Please, God: like Gollum, let Jill Stein have a totally unforeseen and critical purpose"

@lanyardigan (twitter)

 

Realistically, it's not going to happen.  If it did, the turmoil would be unbelievable.

[mormont]

15 minutes ago, Ormond said:

I am amazed that 25% of your students come from the US, Mormont, and wonder what sort of program you are part of in Scotland that attracts that many.

It's the institution, not the programme: around 30% of our students are from overseas, mostly from the US, and I would say US students are rather over-represented among those students I have regular contact with for reasons too complex to go into here.

[Boris the Blade]

Ah that bullshit white working class narrative and blaming indentiy politics. Fuck anyone that pedals that bullshit.

[Weeping Sore]

30 minutes ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Realistically, it's not going to happen.  If it did, the turmoil would be unbelievable.

I agree with your second sentence but I don't see how it relates to the first.

 

[mcbigski]

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

According to Vladi Vlad Putin "Russia's borders don't end anywhere".  Good to know Kodiak Island residents can look to Uncle Vald if they get irritated with their county government:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38099842

I can see Russia from my house to in that case.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

Ah that bullshit white working class narrative and blaming indentiy politics. Fuck anyone that pedals that bullshit.

At this point I don't think it's constructive to just discard this out of hand. This was a horrific loss, to an absolute joke of a candidate. The reasons for the loss are many and varied I'm sure, and I have to believe that these issues factor in to some degree. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said:

I agree with your second sentence but I don't see how it relates to the first.

Agreed. The backlash would be brutal, but are you suggesting that we not go down this road because the price would be too high? If some significant measure of fraud occurred, we have to get it right. Damn the backlash, this is about protecting the integrity of our election process.

[Altherion]

10 hours ago, Inigima said:

Altherion, I gotta ask, and I'm completely serious. I get the objection to Symone Sanders' comment, but why on earth do you get so bent out of shape about stuff like Bernie appealing to minority voters? Most of what people term "identity politics" I just don't get the fuss about. Why is it bad to appeal to more than just white people?

My objections is not to appealing to minority voters -- that is both necessary and morally just. The issue is appealing to them in a way that implies redistribution of resources from white people to them and implying that "diverse" is equivalent to "non-white". The reason I get angry about it is because this is one half of a divide-and-conquer strategy. Neoliberalism requires division among the poor and middle class. This is accomplished along several fault lines, but in the US, the most important one is probably race. The different factions are set at each others' throats over positions for a small number of people thus setting up a balance which allows those in power to permit only candidates who are acceptable to them.

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

A New York Times Op-Ed about the dangers of focuing primarily on "identity-liberalism".

Reasonably accurate. It's nice that this point of view has come out into the open after the election.

[Dr. Pepper]

20 minutes ago, Boris the Blade said:

Ah that bullshit white working class narrative and blaming indentiy politics. Fuck anyone that pedals that bullshit.

Remember, the only identity politics acceptable is white identity politics.  We can never forget the whites.  The poor whites can't be forgotten, ok.  Remember the plight of the whites.  

[Sullen]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Remember, the only identity politics acceptable is white identity politics.  We can never forget the whites.  The poor whites can't be forgotten, ok.  Remember the plight of the whites.  

I don't think it's as much "Only white identity politics is acceptable" as much as "If everyone does it, why shouldn't we?"

Should the trend continue, it'll turn very, very ugly. (As if it wasn't ugly enough as is now)

[Commodore]

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

A New York Times Op-Ed about the dangers of focuing primarily on "identity-liberalism".

If Dems were smart they would make Howard Dean chairman and look at what he and Rahm Emanuel did to take back the house in 2006.

Ellison is a smart guy, but his approach would likely be much different.

[Boris the Blade]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

At this point I don't think it's constructive to just discard this out of hand. This was a horrific loss, to an absolute joke of a candidate. The reasons for the loss are many and varied I'm sure, and I have to believe that these issues factor in to some degree. 

 Bigotry was the biggest reason it happened, oh and the piece of shit electoral college. Again, fuck that narraitive and fuck blaming identity politics. White people need to grow  the fuck up, specifically the bigoted rural white people. Either that or just die off already.

51 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Remember, the only identity politics acceptable is white identity politics.  We can never forget the whites.  The poor whites can't be forgotten, ok.  Remember the plight of the whites.  

White people are so endangered and oppressed. White genocide!

[Boris the Blade]

Lol some people here think rural white people are marginalized.