The sustainability thread: tilting at windmills

[Ice Queen]

37 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

Yeah, there's arguments about rainfall as filling up aquifers and streams...the bigger problem with rainfall and urban areas is usually that it gets wasted though. Large areas covered in asphalt, houses, etc, means that rainwater doesn't make it into the dirt but gathers into drainage systems and creates surges at specific points - so more flooding, and that water is more polluted, and hotter (having run across a bunch of asphalt before it got anywhere) which messes up drainage patterns (leading to more floods) and the ecosystem, and water shortages because more of it is a storm surge running out of it's local fresh water system and out to sea (in a coastal area) or quickly away in a big river. I can imagine that there are specific locations (maybe smaller/mid sized towns) where they want people to keep their hands off of the rainwater and have it make it into the ground, and that may be the more overall sustainable solution, but it sounds like a case by case thing. By and large the problem is the opposite. Private rain barrels would then have a slight positive impact, moderating storm surges and keeping more rain water local. (And of course the big bonus is lower household use.)

Incidentally, I learned today that there's a word for the smell of rain. Petrichor. Ah, English.

D33

Righto. It depends on where you are. We get more precipitation than Seattle and we're surrounded by water, so the big concern is storm runoff and flooding. I live about 500 feet from the Ohio River. 

[Maya Mia]

We are on well water, and our current system does not produce drinkable water.  Therefore we purchase water to drink, in gallons and smaller containers.  We do recycle the plastic.   But we are in the process of updating our water system.   One option is to also install an under the sink RO system, and if we do, we would be able to drink water from that tap.

My initial thought would be of course the RO system is more environmentally friendly as we would no longer be purchasing a lot of plastic.  But then I was thinking about the large amount of flush water that is a by product of an RO system.  Does anyone know if an RO system even with all the flush water is more environmentally friendly than purchasing water in plastic?

 

Oh, and I have  two rainwater tanks that I use to water my plants, at least my more sensitive plants.  One I purchased, (60 gallons) and it has connects to one of my downspouts, and then I have a plastic drum (55 gallons)  that I drilled a few holes in the lid.  Overflow from the first tank goes into the drum, and I have a pump to access that water. The drum also has another hole I drilled for overflow. If you install a tank, make sure you don't forget an overflow option.

[Jo498]

If one looks up the agriculture of cotton it becomes obvious that there is a very simple way everyone can do quite a bit about saving water: buy far less clothing (except maybe second hand), wear it longer and buy less cotton...

[Lykos]

That's so true the most drastic image to show this is probably the shrinking od the South Aral Sea.

[Commodore]

1 hour ago, Jo498 said:

If one looks up the agriculture of cotton it becomes obvious that there is a very simple way everyone can do quite a bit about saving water: buy far less clothing (except maybe second hand), wear it longer and buy less cotton...

appeals for voluntary deprivation never work, tragedy of the commons, etc. 

[Jo498]

What do you mean, they never "work"? Is not going on mad shopping sprees "deprivation"? Anyway, this is besides the point. The thread is exactly about what an individual can do. Not that this will solve all environmental problems in one brilliant stroke. And for many (especially male essentialist pigs) less clothes shopping is not really deprivation but a relief...

(BTW, it is quite well known what works: more rules, enforced by strong governments,  for the "brilliant" cost externalizers who get rich by poisoning everything, including their fellow men.)

[Commodore]

my point is, "do more with less" solutions are better than "do less" solutions

[TrueMetis]

59 minutes ago, Commodore said:

my point is, "do more with less" solutions are better than "do less" solutions

But "wear your clothes longer so you don't have to buy as many" is a "do more with less" solution.

[maarsen]

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Maya Mia said:

We are on well water, and our current system does not produce drinkable water.  Therefore we purchase water to drink, in gallons and smaller containers.  We do recycle the plastic.   But we are in the process of updating our water system.   One option is to also install an under the sink RO system, and if we do, we would be able to drink water from that tap.

My initial thought would be of course the RO system is more environmentally friendly as we would no longer be purchasing a lot of plastic.  But then I was thinking about the large amount of flush water that is a by product of an RO system.  Does anyone know if an RO system even with all the flush water is more environmentally friendly than purchasing water in plastic?

 

Oh, and I have  two rainwater tanks that I use to water my plants, at least my more sensitive plants.  One I purchased, (60 gallons) and it has connects to one of my downspouts, and then I have a plastic drum (55 gallons)  that I drilled a few holes in the lid.  Overflow from the first tank goes into the drum, and I have a pump to access that water. The drum also has another hole I drilled for overflow. If you install a tank, make sure you don't forget an overflow option.

I maintain large scale RO water systems as part of my job. RO systems recycle the water that does not pass through the membrane.  Only on the backwash cycle does it send water to the drain. Hope this helps. 

[Suttree]

On 12/14/2016 at 6:02 AM, Jo498 said:

If one looks up the agriculture of cotton it becomes obvious that there is a very simple way everyone can do quite a bit about saving water: buy far less clothing (except maybe second hand), wear it longer and buy less cotton...

Levi's did an interesting study a while back on the life cycle of a pair of jeans. The second largest piece of the puzzle by a wide margin was consumer care. Essentially people are washing things far too often. Wash less frequently with cold water and hang dry cuts down enormously on both water and climate change impact.

[Ice Queen]

15 minutes ago, Suttree said:

Levi's did an interesting study a while back on the life cycle of a pair of jeans. The second largest piece of the puzzle by a wide margin was consumer care. Essentially people are washing things far too often. Wash less frequently with cold water and hang dry cuts down enormously on both water and climate change impact.

A lot of places don't let you hang clotheslines in your backyard. 

I read somewhere a few months ago that Levi Strauss recommends NEVER washing your jeans. 

[Jo498]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/levis-ceo-explains-why-you-should-never-wash-your-jeans-a6881031.html

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/oct/24/why-you-should-never-ever-wash-your-jeans-unless-you-really-really-have-to

I didn't check the numbers but I think the amount of water used for growing the cotton (and preparing the fabric etc.) exceeds the water used by doing laundry in the lifetime of the jeans. But otherwise I completely agree. A few years ago they did an experiment where someone wore a jeans for about a year without ever washing it. Certainly not in the machine, maybe the cleaned little flecks of dirt with a wet cloth or so. They measured the "dirtiness" (microorganisms and stuff) and it was never problematic.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/canadian-student-josh-le-year-washing-jeans/story?id=12722442

"There did not appear to be differences in the bacterial carriage depending on whether the jeans had been worn for 15 months or only 13 days," McQueen's findings read. The bacteria present on the jeans came mostly from Le's skin and was not harmful, McQueen said."

Of course there are situations when clothing has to be washed frequently and we should change and wash underclothes, shirts and bedsheets regularly. But "outer layers" have to be washed far less frequently than it is usually done. And no, trousers do not become smelly after a few days or two weeks. It is of course advisable to air them and not wear them every day, switch between several outfits and air the ones not in use, store them in a dry, airy place, they do not have to be laundered often.

[Maya Mia]

9 hours ago, maarsen said:

I maintain large scale RO water systems as part of my job. RO systems recycle the water that does not pass through the membrane.  Only on the backwash cycle does it send water to the drain. Hope this helps. 

 

Thank you.  My meeting was this morning, and I have chosen to install an under the sink RO system, with the other upgrades..  It is only a 3 gallon reservoir, but can "make" up to 25 gallons per day.  Biggest benefit was I can now hook up the ice maker in my fridge, instead of buying ice.

My new system will involve only one pump, instead of my two, and uses hydrogen peroxide to clean out the sulfur removal system.  They are installing next Wednesday.   So, no more buying 20 gallons of water to drink minimum per week, plus the individual water bottles.  My electric bill will drop, and I'll have much less "things" to go wrong, that I pay for to get fixed.  It's a bit pricey, but I think worth to be able to get a shower without smelling like sulfur for hours afterwards.  Plus we will actually have drinking water.

 

Its kind of amazing that this day and age, people in a settled part of the state don't have decent drinkable water.

[SerHaHa]

We sold our GTR and bought a Tesla Model S P100D.

I often ride a Norco electric bicycle, it's hacked and will do 28mph with the throttle only, and at 20mph I get about 40miles without pedaling at all.  Typically I pedal in power assist mode, about 1/2 setting, and will get 100+ miles on a charge, while leaving many cars in traffic - and all other cyclists, in the dust.

I'll be buying an electric motorcycle or 2 this spring as well.

I also switched to a vegan diet last year, and am very happy with what it does for me.  It's not out of some desire to not harm animals or anything, that's just a bonus IMO, but for health mostly. 

We also have a $25,000 solar array on our acreage/lake home property.  We put more power back into the grid than we could ever use.  Should there ever be issues getting power in the future, we could power many of our neighbors homes as well.  It's handy for charging our vehicle, since the $ hit from the investment was 5 years ago, it's like having free fuel with the Tesla.

We have a well dug and operating now too, and I could power the pump operating the home from our solar power, no issues. 

Also started gardening now that I'm retired from field work, first crops this year were surprising, I had no idea how much yield we would get off what isn't that much space.  Next year we'll plant far more diversely, at least a dozen different various vegetables/etc. 

 

[Ice Queen]

On 12/16/2016 at 10:43 PM, Maya Mia said:

 

Thank you.  My meeting was this morning, and I have chosen to install an under the sink RO system, with the other upgrades..  It is only a 3 gallon reservoir, but can "make" up to 25 gallons per day.  Biggest benefit was I can now hook up the ice maker in my fridge, instead of buying ice.

My new system will involve only one pump, instead of my two, and uses hydrogen peroxide to clean out the sulfur removal system.  They are installing next Wednesday.   So, no more buying 20 gallons of water to drink minimum per week, plus the individual water bottles.  My electric bill will drop, and I'll have much less "things" to go wrong, that I pay for to get fixed.  It's a bit pricey, but I think worth to be able to get a shower without smelling like sulfur for hours afterwards.  Plus we will actually have drinking water.

 

Its kind of amazing that this day and age, people in a settled part of the state don't have decent drinkable water.

Well...as recently as the last census, more than a million people still had outhouses if it makes you feel any better.

Careful with the H2O2. If it's industrial grade, it'll eat holes in your clothes and shoes (and do a number on your floors) if you're not careful. 

[Ice Queen]

On 12/17/2016 at 0:09 AM, SerHaHa said:

We sold our GTR and bought a Tesla Model S P100D.

I often ride a Norco electric bicycle, it's hacked and will do 28mph with the throttle only, and at 20mph I get about 40miles without pedaling at all.  Typically I pedal in power assist mode, about 1/2 setting, and will get 100+ miles on a charge, while leaving many cars in traffic - and all other cyclists, in the dust.

I'll be buying an electric motorcycle or 2 this spring as well.

I also switched to a vegan diet last year, and am very happy with what it does for me.  It's not out of some desire to not harm animals or anything, that's just a bonus IMO, but for health mostly. 

We also have a $25,000 solar array on our acreage/lake home property.  We put more power back into the grid than we could ever use.  Should there ever be issues getting power in the future, we could power many of our neighbors homes as well.  It's handy for charging our vehicle, since the $ hit from the investment was 5 years ago, it's like having free fuel with the Tesla.

We have a well dug and operating now too, and I could power the pump operating the home from our solar power, no issues. 

Also started gardening now that I'm retired from field work, first crops this year were surprising, I had no idea how much yield we would get off what isn't that much space.  Next year we'll plant far more diversely, at least a dozen different various vegetables/etc. 

 

I can't go vegetarian. I've tried. I think I'm just a carnivore and need meat. I teach vegetarians how to combine proteins for a living, but I can't live that way myself even though I know it's far better for us and the environment, not to mention the animals. I'm not a fan of red meat, and I suppose I could give up chicken and live on eggs. But I could never, ever go vegan. Not happening. 

[SerHaHa]

Cat lady - It's not for everyone, and I'm not doing it for a political or philosophical reason, in fact I'll have some salmon steaks and the odd egg or two myself here and there.   IMO just greatly increasing vegetable and other healthy foods, even while still eating meats/fish/chicken, just less of them or smaller portions, can make a difference for some - some - people.  I rarely if ever tell people in person that I'm eating vegan 99% of the time just due many instantly thinking I'm going to send them on a guilt trip over eating meat/poor animals/etc. 

 

I certainly am not against those who eat lots of meat, eat what they hunt, and so forth, personal choice for them, which we all should have.  Just for me after years of eating a lot of protein/chicken while building then power lifting, piles of red meat, lots of carbs, etc, then quitting all that and doing more flexability and cardio type exercise, and going to a mostly vegan diet for health reasons (I had cancer/surgery/chemo/rad, and even though that's in the past now, I still have systemic lupus), I've just felt better.  If I didn't feel better, I'd not be eating vegan, but I do, it's made a huge difference in my life.  I miss eating a lot of things, but I don't miss feeling worse.  It's just what works for me.

 

Growing so much of our own produce has been a very therapeutic and interesting adventure at this stage of life. Never thought I'd get so much enjoyment out of growing our own food, and having SO much left over that giving much of it away to those who can use it has been a lot of fun as well.  Harvesting has been a ton of work, but I've learned so much - it's really not as hard as I thought it would be.  With our solar/water systems at the lake/garden home, I could do it year round as well, we may set up a hydro/aero growing structure for winter time, and grow vegetables year round. 

[Jo498]

It is only tangentially related but a most fascinating book is "The omnivore's dilemma". I highly recommend it; it is considerably more informative (also twice as long) than Saffran Foer's "Eating Animals".

[Ice Queen]

52 minutes ago, SerHaHa said:

Cat lady - It's not for everyone, and I'm not doing it for a political or philosophical reason, in fact I'll have some salmon steaks and the odd egg or two myself here and there.   IMO just greatly increasing vegetable and other healthy foods, even while still eating meats/fish/chicken, just less of them or smaller portions, can make a difference for some - some - people.  I rarely if ever tell people in person that I'm eating vegan 99% of the time just due many instantly thinking I'm going to send them on a guilt trip over eating meat/poor animals/etc. 

 

I certainly am not against those who eat lots of meat, eat what they hunt, and so forth, personal choice for them, which we all should have.  Just for me after years of eating a lot of protein/chicken while building then power lifting, piles of red meat, lots of carbs, etc, then quitting all that and doing more flexability and cardio type exercise, and going to a mostly vegan diet for health reasons (I had cancer/surgery/chemo/rad, and even though that's in the past now, I still have systemic lupus), I've just felt better.  If I didn't feel better, I'd not be eating vegan, but I do, it's made a huge difference in my life.  I miss eating a lot of things, but I don't miss feeling worse.  It's just what works for me.

 

Growing so much of our own produce has been a very therapeutic and interesting adventure at this stage of life. Never thought I'd get so much enjoyment out of growing our own food, and having SO much left over that giving much of it away to those who can use it has been a lot of fun as well.  Harvesting has been a ton of work, but I've learned so much - it's really not as hard as I thought it would be.  With our solar/water systems at the lake/garden home, I could do it year round as well, we may set up a hydro/aero growing structure for winter time, and grow vegetables year round. 

So sorry about your health problems. I hope you're feeling much better and will continue to be healthy.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was judging you for being a vegan. Not at all. It was more envy because no matter how hard I tried I couldn't do it. I don't eat meat every day. During the recession it was a luxury I couldn't really afford, so we got used to eating less of it. But I can't cut it out altogether. I wish I could.

It is fun and satisfying to grow your own food, isn't it? I usually have so much I end up giving a lot of it away, and that's satisfying, too. I've also learned to can and preserve, something that was once a normal activity for nearly every family but that's fallen by the wayside. I remember my mother doing it, but she went to work when I was 10 and we never learned. It's a skill I intend to pass on. For a long time I didn't do it because I was terrified of giving everyone botulism, but the new systems are pretty idiot proof.  

[Ice Queen]

16 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

It is only tangentially related but a most fascinating book is "The omnivore's dilemma". I highly recommend it; it is considerably more informative (also twice as long) than Saffran Foer's "Eating Animals".

If there is one thing that would convince me to go straight vegan, it would be the cruelty involved in the way the animals are raised and slaughtered. It's horrifying to me and I do think about it every time I put a piece of meat in my mouth.