Hooded Man of WF is 10000% Theon

[John Suburbs]

15 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I think I was not clear here. Martin's clues are not the ones that a reader really needs to think about to understand what that clue might mean. Martin's clues are those which if a reader doesn't notice them on the initial read and then finds them out on a reread or on a forum, he goes "omg, it's so obvious, how I didn't notice it". His clues are not subtle, as they immediately reveal the mystery behind them once a reader notices them.

As it was said, Hosteen is stupid. He could have assumed that BW's blood was from him picking up LW or something like that.

Or BW (not LW) simply is 11 years old. I also think it was dark at that time ( I might be wrong though)

Or, BW is simply a killer. And what you had described is what Hosteen had thought.

I am not going to answer this since I don't believe Hosteen participated.

How could you not notice that on the initial read? LW is spattered with blood, and the next graf his dead cousin is laid on the table. And then a few short grafs later, his hands are said to be caked with blood.

He's not that stupid. He's one of the best fighters the Frey have, and he can certainly piece together a dead frozen body and a bloody cousin. Unless, as I've suggested, the body was not entirely frozen...

Depending on how long the body lay, it was probably dark when he was killed. But even an 11yo boy has enough sense to get rid of his bloody clothes after he commits murder. And BW is the more thoughtful of the two.

If Hosteen actually thinks BW really is the killer, then why is he upending the fragile alliance needed to meet the threat of Stannis? It certainly doesn't seem like Hosteen is BSing.

I don't think Hosteen was involved either, which is why the most likely explanation is that the spatter and the blood gloves came from BW's handling of the body, which was not yet entirely frozen. Anything else has both BW and Hosteen acting in a highly irrational manner.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Not true, if he is yanking and pulling on a body that is not completely frozen and then hugging it in grief, globs of congealed but still wet blood could be coming off like spatter. And it still doesn't explain why both of his hands would be "caked with blood." That indicates that they spent a good deal of time in direct contact with a lot of blood -- as if he were digging and pulling at a body, not slashing with a knife.

Or moving a freshly killed body....

Yanking, pulling, and hugging a freshly killed body would cause spatter? I don't think so. Spatter is small drops, not "globs of congealed blood"

If we go by your version it would mean BW finds the freshly killed body. Hug it. Get fresh blood on him. Wait a certain amount of time for the body to freeze, then go tell someone about it. Why wait? Why wouldn't you immediately go tell someone?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

He's not that stupid. He's one of the best fighters the Frey have, and he can certainly piece together a dead frozen body and a bloody cousin. Unless, as I've suggested, the body was not entirely frozen...

Hosteen is looking for a reason to go after Manderly. This provides it and that is all Hosteen sees here. What he wants to see.

[Jon Fossoway]

Hosteen attacks a lord of a powerful House in a hall full of northern allies and other lords not very sure about the Frey. Sure, he wants a slice of lord Manderly, but his way of procuring that opportunity is so dumb, untimely, and damaging to the general situation he's in, Stan is absolutely right in calling him ser Stupid. If he's dumb enough to provoke chaos openly, I've no doubt he could perfectly misinterpret the Walder kid death scenario.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 5:35 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Or moving a freshly killed body....

Yanking, pulling, and hugging a freshly killed body would cause spatter? I don't think so. Spatter is small drops, not "globs of congealed blood"

If we go by your version it would mean BW finds the freshly killed body. Hug it. Get fresh blood on him. Wait a certain amount of time for the body to freeze, then go tell someone about it. Why wait? Why wouldn't you immediately go tell someone?

No, it means BW finds the body that is not entirely frozen and during its recovery he gets some blood on his clothes from the core, probably as he is tugging and pulling the body free from the snow. Also, can we assume that before the body froze, blood leaked into the nearby snow, which then got on BW's clothes?

If we go by your version, BW kills his cousin and then blithely walks around for hours with the evidence for all to see. And then this young boy has the stones to tell a bald-faced lie to no less than Roose and Ramsey, even though he is fully aware of what happens to people who are disloyal to the Boltons.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 5:38 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Hosteen is looking for a reason to go after Manderly. This provides it and that is all Hosteen sees here. What he wants to see.

Really? Hosteen knows full well that BW is the killer, but he is going to accuse Manderly anyway, throwing chaos into the alliance that is needed to defeat Stannis? Please.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Hosteen attacks a lord of a powerful House in a hall full of northern allies and other lords not very sure about the Frey. Sure, he wants a slice of lord Manderly, but his way of procuring that opportunity is so dumb, untimely, and damaging to the general situation he's in, Stan is absolutely right in calling him ser Stupid. If he's dumb enough to provoke chaos openly, I've no doubt he could perfectly misinterpret the Walder kid death scenario.

He would have to be an utter imbecile to see a cousin spattered with blood next to a dead body and not immediately suspect that the one with the blood on him is the killer.

[Jadakiss]

"There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought, and I am one of them."

 

dance chapter one right before it. there is the give away

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, it means BW finds the body that is not entirely frozen and during its recovery he gets some blood on his clothes from the core, probably as he is tugging and pulling the body free from the snow. Also, can we assume that before the body froze, blood leaked into the nearby snow, which then got on BW's clothes?

This would not explain blood spatter on BW. And any blood leaking into nearby snow would freeze before the body would.

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Hosteen knows full well that BW is the killer, but he is going to accuse Manderly anyway, throwing chaos into the alliance that is needed to defeat Stannis?

I must have missed Hosteen’s POV chapter where he says he knows BW killed LW...

Remember that tensions are extremely high in WF right now between Frey and Manderly. Hosteen knows that Manderly killed his kin, but cannot prove it. When Hosteen sees a dead Frey, Manderly would be the first person he thinks is responsible. Remember this conversation?

Quote

Lord Wyman Manderly slapped his massive belly. “White Harbor does not fear to ride with you, Ser Hosteen. Lead us out, and my knights will ride behind you.”

Ser Hosteen turned on the fat man. “Close enough to drive a lance through my back, aye. Where are my kin, Manderly? Tell me that. Your guests, who brought your son back to you.”

“His bones, you mean.” Manderly speared a chunk of ham with his dagger. “I recall them well. Rhaegar of the round shoulders, with his glib tongue. Bold Ser Jared, so swift to draw his steel. Symond the spymaster, always clinking coins. They brought home Wendel’s bones. It was Tywin Lannister who returned Wylis to me, safe and whole, as he had promised. A man of his word, Lord Tywin, Seven save his soul.” Lord Wyman popped the meat into his mouth, chewed it noisily, smacked his lips, and said, “The road has many dangers, ser. I gave your brothers guest gifts when we took our leave of White Harbor. We swore we would meet again at the wedding.

Many and more bore witness to our parting.” “Many and more?” mocked Aenys Frey. “Or you and yours?”

“What are you suggesting, Frey?” The Lord of White Harbor wiped his mouth with his sleeve. “I do not like your tone, ser. No, not one bloody bit.”

“Step out into the yard, you sack of suet, and I’ll serve you all the bloody bits that you can stomach,” Ser Hosteen said.

Wyman Manderly laughed, but half a dozen of his knights were on their feet at once. It fell to Roger Ryswell and Barbrey Dustin to calm them with quiet words.

BW probably tells him the dice story and Hosteen doesn't need much convincing to confront Manderly. Which, he does of course, slicing Manderly's necks. Hosteen wants this confrontation and another dead Frey (Ser Aeny's squire was also killed) gives him reason.

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Here is the relevant passage as to the death of Little Walder in its entirety. Note the bolded...

Quote

 

The doors of the Great Hall opened with a crash.

A cold wind came swirling through, and a cloud of ice crystals sparkled blue-white in the air. Through it strode Ser Hosteen Frey, caked with snow to the waist, a body in his arms. All along the benches men put down their cups and spoons to turn and gape at the grisly spectacle. The hall grew quiet.

Another murder.

Snow slid from Ser Hosteen's cloaks as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew—Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood.

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen's arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

"My brother Merrett's son." Hosteen Frey lowered the body to the floor before the dais. "Butchered like a hog and shoved beneath a snowbank. A boy. "

Little Walder, thought Theon. The big one. He glanced at Rowan. There are six of them, he remembered. Any of them could have done this. But the washerwoman felt his eyes. "This was no work of ours," she said.

"Be quiet," Abel warned her.

Lord Ramsay descended from the dais to the dead boy. His father rose more slowly, pale-eyed, still-faced, solemn. "This was foul work." For once Roose Bolton's voice was loud enough to carry. "Where was the body found?"

"Under that ruined keep, my lord," replied Big Walder. "The one with the old gargoyles." The boy's gloves were caked with his cousin's blood. "I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver."

"What man?" Ramsay demanded. "Give me his name. Point him out to me, boy, and I will make you a cloak of his skin."

"He never said, my lord. Only that he won the coin at dice." The Frey boy hesitated. "It was some White Harbor men who taught dice. I couldn't say which ones, but it was them."

"My lord," boomed Hosteen Frey. "We know the man who did this. Killed this boy and all the rest. Not by his own hand, no. He is too fat and craven to do his own killing. But by his word." He turned to Wyman Manderly. "Do you deny it?"

The Lord of White Harbor bit a sausage in half. "I confess …" He wiped the grease from his lips with his sleeve. "… I confess that I know little of this poor boy. Lord Ramsay's squire, was he not? How old was the lad?"

"Nine, on his last nameday."

"So young," said Wyman Manderly. "Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey."

Ser Hosteen slammed his foot into the tabletop, knocking it off its trestles, back into Lord Wyman's swollen belly. Cups and platters flew, sausages scattered everywhere, and a dozen Manderly men came cursing to their feet. Some grabbed up knives, platters, flagons, anything that might serve as a weapon.

Ser Hosteen Frey ripped his longsword from its scabbard and leapt toward Wyman Manderly. The Lord of White Harbor tried to jerk away, but the tabletop pinned him to his chair. The blade slashed through three of his four chins in a spray of bright red blood. Lady Walda gave a shriek and clutched at her lord husband's arm. "Stop," Roose Bolton shouted. "Stop this madness. " His own men rushed forward as the Manderlys vaulted over the benches to get at the Freys. One lunged at Ser Hosteen with a dagger, but the big knight pivoted and took his arm off at the shoulder. Lord Wyman pushed to his feet, only to collapse. Old Lord Locke was shouting for a maester as Manderly flopped on the floor like a clubbed walrus in a spreading pool of blood. Around him dogs fought over sausages. It took two score Dreadfort spearmen to part the combatants and put an end to the carnage. By that time six White Harbor men and two Freys lay dead upon the floor. A dozen more were wounded and one of the Bastard's Boys, Luton, was dying noisily, crying for his mother as he tried to shove a fistful of slimy entrails back through a gaping belly wound. Lord Ramsay silenced him, yanking a spear from one of Steelshanks's men and driving it down through Luton's chest. Even then the rafters still rang with shouts and prayers and curses, the shrieks of terrified horses and the growls of Ramsay's bitches. Steelshanks Walton had to slam the butt of his spear against the floor a dozen times before the hall quieted enough for Roose Bolton to be heard.

"I see you all want blood," the Lord of the Dreadfort said. Maester Rhodry stood beside him, a raven on his arm. The bird's black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship's hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well. Dark wings, dark words. "Rather than use our swords upon each other, you might try them on Lord Stannis."

Lord Bolton unrolled the parchment. "His host lies not three days' ride from here, snowbound and starving, and I for one am tired of waiting on his pleasure. Ser Hosteen, assemble your knights and men-at-arms by the main gates. As you are so eager for battle, you shall strike our first blow. Lord Wyman, gather your White Harbor men by the east gate. They shall go forth as well."

Hosteen Frey's sword was red almost to the hilt. Blood spatters speckled his cheeks like freckles. He lowered his blade and said, "As my lord commands. But after I deliver you the head of Stannis Baratheon, I mean to finish hacking off Lord Lard's."

Four White Harbor knights had formed a ring around Lord Wyman, as Maester Medrick labored over him to staunch his bleeding. "First you must needs come through us, ser," said the eldest of them, a hard-faced greybeard whose bloodstained surcoat showed three silvery mermaids upon a violet field.

"Gladly. One at a time or all at once, it makes no matter."

"Enough, " roared Lord Ramsay, brandishing his bloody spear.

"Another threat, and I'll gut you all myself. My lord father has spoken!

Save your wroth for the pretender Stannis."

 

Theon, Dance 51

[Dofs]

On 07/12/2016 at 3:28 AM, Jadakiss said:

"There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought, and I am one of them."

 

dance chapter one right before it. there is the give away

The chapter's title "Ghost of Winterfell" definitely refers to Theon, there is no indication that it refers to this hooded man.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@John Suburbs

If you would like to keep discussing the LW murder create a new thread. We have derailed this thread too much already. Unless you think Theon or the HM killed LW. That would keep us on topic I suppose. 

 

[Jadakiss]

10 hours ago, Dofs said:

The chapter's title "Ghost of Winterfell" definitely refers to Theon, there is no indication that it refers to this hooded man.

 

if you cant put 2 and 2 together not sure what to tell you.... the hooded man isnt killing people, same as theon, he just wanders in the night they hold the same style dagger, and even in a pitch black snow storm the hooded man says theon instantly........if you just put it all together its very clear. he is obviously out of his mind at this point, not just  the breakfast to dinner in a paragraph just everything

 

hooded man told theon what his inner conscience was feeling, how he killed the stark boys, all he ever was was false etc etc.

 

keep in mind when theon and yara finally met again she couldnt even tell who he was (he knew her) so if sh couldnt notice her own brother, the chances of some guy in a pitch black snow storm at a dark hour seeing its him right away etc

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

 

if you cant put 2 and 2 together not sure what to tell you.... the hooded man isnt killing people, same as theon, he just wanders in the night they hold the same style dagger, and even in a pitch black snow storm the hooded man says theon instantly........if you just put it all together its very clear. he is obviously out of his mind at this point, not just  the breakfast to dinner in a paragraph just everything

 

hooded man told theon what his inner conscience was feeling, how he killed the stark boys, all he ever was was false etc etc.

 

keep in mind when theon and yara finally met again she couldnt even tell who he was (he knew her) so if sh couldnt notice her own brother, the chances of some guy in a pitch black snow storm at a dark hour seeing its him right away etc

"Yara"?

[Aedam Targaryen]

37 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

hooded man told theon what his inner conscience was feeling, how he killed the stark boys, all he ever was was false etc etc.

So if the hooded man is Theon, why would Theon confront himself about being a kinslayer if he knew that he didn't kill the Stark boys? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Jadakiss said:

 

if you cant put 2 and 2 together not sure what to tell you.... the hooded man isnt killing people, same as theon, he just wanders in the night they hold the same style dagger, and even in a pitch black snow storm the hooded man says theon instantly........if you just put it all together its very clear. he is obviously out of his mind at this point, not just  the breakfast to dinner in a paragraph just everything

 

hooded man told theon what his inner conscience was feeling, how he killed the stark boys, all he ever was was false etc etc.

 

keep in mind when theon and yara finally met again she couldnt even tell who he was (he knew her) so if sh couldnt notice her own brother, the chances of some guy in a pitch black snow storm at a dark hour seeing its him right away etc

Who is Yara?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

So if the hooded man is Theon, why would Theon confront himself about being a kinslayer if he knew that he didn't kill the Stark boys? 

The man with the hooded cloak was the ghost of Reek's former self. It is known.

As to your specific point, Theon had sworn his allegiance to Robb, and he thought of Robb as a brother, making Robb's brothers his own. He dreamed of wedding Sansa, thereby becoming their brother, and the Ned's son, in truth. And Theon was chastised by his father for naming Robb a brother.

Of course, Theon betrayed Robb and held out that he had murdered his brothers. (False is all he ever was.) Accordingly, the ghost of Reek's former self named Reek Turncloak and Kinslayer. Reek meekly denied the kinslaying title not because he didn't actually kill the Stark boys, but because he was not actually a Stark. But the ghost of his former self knew better.

[Aedam Targaryen]

27 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The man with the hooded cloak was the ghost of Reek's former self. It is known.

As to your specific point, Theon had sworn his allegiance to Robb, and he thought of Robb as a brother, making Robb's brothers his own. He dreamed of wedding Sansa, thereby becoming their brother, and the Ned's son, in truth. And Theon was chastised by his father for naming Robb a brother.

Of course, Theon betrayed Robb and held out that he had murdered his brothers. (False is all he ever was.) Accordingly, the ghost of Reek's former self named Reek Turncloak and Kinslayer. Reek meekly denied the kinslaying title not because he didn't actually kill the Stark boys, but because he was not actually a Stark. But the ghost of his former self knew better.

Right, he denied being a kinslayer and his reasoning was because he was not actually a Stark, and your argument would make perfect sense to me if Theon actually killed the Stark boys, but he didn't.

Whichever way you cut it, the HM calls Theon kinslayer because of the Stark boys, and he wasn't a slayer of those kin.

You say that Ghost Theon knows better than to believe Reek Theon doesn't consider himself kin to the Starks, but that same Ghost Theon doesn't know that Reek Theon didn't kill the Starks?

Until someone can explain why the Ghost of Theon would call Reek Theon a kinslayer when he would obviously know that he wasn't one, I just can't get behind the split personality theory. 

But I see your line in the sand... you say 'it is known'... I guess that proves it. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

But I see your line in the sand... you say 'it is known'... I guess that proves it. 

Glad we cleared that up.

[Aedam Targaryen]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Glad we cleared that up.

Haha! You bastard!