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Black Crow

Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I enjoyed reading your ideas very much!  Your english is charming!  I like the idea that the Song of Ice and Fire; isn't just one song; but a collection of all the songs.  I don't think the song belongs to one person or is about one person or one prophesy.  

Exactly so, which is why I'm so wary of taking that business of Rhaegar [in the vision] responding that his son already has a song; the Song of Ice and Fire. It doesn't belong to him at all but rather he has a part to play.

In exactly the same way this whole series of novels is collectively entitled the Song of Ice and Fire; its a song which encompasses all of the characters, not just a single chosen one.

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Great to see your idea getting it's time in the sun, @Feather Crystal! Of course you know I'm on board with the idea, we've already discussed this a bit. Just to clarify I think GRRM is doing more than just inverting but I can see how the titled chapters specifically are role inversions/reversals. That said, I think a lot of the "echoes" as people like to call them are direct parallels with specific dualities being flipped, inversions. I definitely think it's still in its adolescence and some connections that seem correct now will most certainly prove false. Conversely, once we have more info and access more of these connections we'll be able to gain deeper insights into all sides of the events being inverted/reciprocated/whatever and eventually the series as a whole.

The big thing thing I think holding the theory back is the twisting nature of connective symbolism GRRM uses. The analogy I like best is a giant web, having clusters where different strands meet. Something that may seem like an unrelated concept is actually directly related or serves as a symbolic stand-in for the original. This makes piecing everything together extremely difficult to anyone not searching for such a pattern. For simplicity let's say the originator for a specific event is given the letter A but the letter A is also tied to concepts I will give the colors red, green, yellow, and blue. Furthermore each color is given 5 more concepts I will give numbers: red is 1-5, green is 6-10 and so on until ending at 20. When we get to view the original event we will see the numbers 1 through 20 in order as related to their colors but the problem is the world/time broke and all of the symbols got thrown around. So we may see event A but only red is mentioned with the numbers 1 & 5 while another time we may get numbers 4, 5, 7, and 13  sans color description, while in yet another instance we might get green and blue with 2 and 4. The same event is shown but with different symbols that don't seem causally related on the surface. But after looking at the numbers 1, 2, 4, and 5 you begin to realize that far more often than not the concept for red is used with each and eventually you connect 3 to the cluster. Upon finishing the red cluster you notice 3 with the colors green and blue, then begin searching for the related numbers of green and blue. Once you gather all the evidence, you can synthesize it all as the same event and then the symbols that seemed disparate are in fact connected -- albeit in an extremely circuitous fashion. Different roads lead to the same castle, no?

 

A great example of this is the coloring of Cersei constantly associated with the deep green of emerald (nearly 2/3 of all mentions of emeralds are related to Cersei or her children wearing an emerald she gave them). Yet when Sansa sees the Blackwater ablaze she connects emeralds and jade to wildfire:

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The reds and yellows of common flame warred against the emeralds and jades of wildfire, each color flaring and then fading, birthing armies of short-lived shadows to die again an instant later. -Sansa VII, ACOK

Deep green is also connected to Renly's armor, described as "the green of leaves in a summer wood." Victarion worries about a storm and how it would break up his fleet of ships and they would end up, "Like leaves strewn across the Summer Sea." An apt analogy, as the wood of the ships could be seen as a forest on the sea. The next contender is Dunk receiving his infamous shield:

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"The elm's alive," Pate pointed out. "See how green the leaves are? Summer leaves, for certain. And I've seen shields blazoned with skulls and wolves and ravens, even hanged men and bloody heads. They served well enough, and so will this. -The Hedge Knight

Here he connects the summer leaves to shields and then shields to death by neck injury (hanging/decapitation as the skulls are severed from the body) but also wolves and ravens, magical implements of Bloodraven and the Children. If we go back to Sansa's vision, she sees red and yellow as opposite to jade and emerald. Red and yellow are both used as descriptors of gold quite often, as both red-gold and yellow gold.

I'm going to stop here because I'm not trying to decipher every hidden meaning, just show how you can start with one concept and by following the associations spiral out quickly into an endless search, like some fractal whose pattern can be puzzled out at all levels so long as you have the right meanings/context with which to view it.

 

Now to look at something you've already mentioned and try to take it a step further using your inversion theory.

On 12/3/2016 at 9:12 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Garin the Great was hung in a golden cage and mocked. Garin called upon the Mother Rhoyne to destroy the Valyrian invaders of Chroyane.

Jaime wore his golden armor when he slew King Aerys. Even though he was a sworn brother of the Kingsguard his first loyalty was to his Lannister family. Symbolically he was held by his golden cage as well.

Garin lead a quarter million of his followers to their deaths in attempting to stop a war with the dragonlords and after failing drowns his enemies in water. Jaime, upon learning Aerys wanted to drown his enemies in flame, attempts to stop a war with dragonlords and succeeds, saving half a million lives. From the wiki: "some say Garin's curse brought the Doom of Valyria." In ACOK around the time of the bread riots (I can't seem to find the quote but I distinctly remember it) Myrcella or Tommen tells Cersei that the smallfolk say Jaime killing Aerys cursed them. The fact that the number saved is doubled seems to imply Garin may have been once allied to or part of the dragonlords' ranks similar to how Jaime was Aerys' sworn sword.

I'm going to do something I promised myself I wouldn't and use one of the pieces of evidence I've been holding onto for my big A+J=J+C post. The reason for this is I think ignoring their dragon blood here would be like trying to decipher the Ironborn inversion chapters/characters without keeping in mind their Ironborn lineage and how they relate/reciprocate Blackfyre tendencies as you've shown.

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"A hundred golden dragons on the Kingslayer," Littlefinger announced loudly as Jaime Lannister entered the lists, riding an elegant blood bay destrier. The horse wore a blanket of gilded ringmail, and Jaime glittered from head to heel. Even his lance was fashioned from the golden wood of the Summer Isles.

The Hound just managed to stay in his saddle. He jerked his mount around hard and rode back to the lists for the second pass. Jaime Lannister tossed down his broken lance and snatched up a fresh one, jesting with his squire. The Hound spurred forward at a hard gallop. Lannister rode to meet him. This time, when Jaime shifted his seat, Sandor Clegane shifted with him. Both lances exploded, and by the time the splinters had settled, a riderless blood bay was trotting off in search of grass while Ser Jaime Lannister rolled in the dirt, golden and dented.

Jaime Lannister was back on his feet, but his ornate lion helmet had been twisted around and dented in his fall, and now he could not get it off. The commons were hooting and pointing, the lords and ladies were trying to stifle their chuckles, and failing, and over it all Ned could hear King Robert laughing, louder than anyone. Finally they had to lead the Lion of Lannister off to a blacksmith, blind and stumbling. -Eddard VII, AGOT

The blood bay, despite invoking the red of blood, is more of a brownish red, the brown of dirt/mud being very important for these scenes.

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Daemon raked his stallion's side with golden spurs, and leapt forward like a thunderclap, lowering his war lance with its deadly iron point. Ser Glendon raised his shield and raced to meet him, swinging his own longer lance across his mare's head to bear upon the young pretender's chest. Mud sprayed back from their horses' hooves, and the torches seemed to burn the brighter as the two knights went pounding past.

Dunk closed his eyes. He heard a crack, a shout, a thump.

"No," he heard Lord Peake cry out in anguish. "Noooooo." For half a heartbeat, Dunk almost felt sorry for him. He opened his eyes again. Riderless, the big black stallion was slowing to a trot. Dunk jumped out and grabbed him by the reins. At the far end of the lists, Ser Glendon Ball wheeled his mare and raised his splintered lance. Men rushed onto the field to where the Fiddler lay unmoving, facedown in a puddle. When they helped him to his feet, he was mud from head to heel.

"The Brown Dragon!" someone shouted. Laughter rippled through the yard as the dawn washed over Whitewalls. -The Mystery Knight

So if inversion holds true then Jaime is in the place of a Targaryen usurper by killing Aerys and taking the throne. Despite succeeding where Garin and Daemon failed, Jaime abdicates almost immediately. Perhaps Garin wasn't wanting to take the throne, only stop the war? But that would be a parallel and not an inversion, for me this is the real difficulty in trying to suss all this out. Also, after being defeated in a battle at the Trident (Whitewalls was on the Trident until after being torn down), Jaime, ever the golden knight, is clasped in fetters and brought to the Tully seat of power as a ward against the crown in their rebellion. Similarly Daemon II, is clapped in golden fetters and brought to King's Landing to serve as a ward to protect against the Blackfyre rebellion across the Narrow Sea. Once Catelyn releases him with Brienne, Jaime is put in chains around hands and feet, just like Daemon's fetters, and is pretty constantly covered in mud and shit, a brown dragon just as Daemon was. There the similarities end for now, as Daemon stayed in KL and died a few years later. Possibly he was tortured and succumbed? Jaime did want to die until Brienne kicked some sense into him. Whoever the parallel is for Jaime from then on I can't say but the possibility seems likely, as you could say he is reborn after losing his sword hand.

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On 12/3/2016 at 9:12 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Looking forward to reading more from you, Ravenous Reader! Your grasp of the story and it's symbolism is impressive...

:agree:

@ravenous reader I see you've quoted me a couple times with my opinion on time and how the events are both:

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causing a lot of the events that "primed" current day events and allowed our characters (or perhaps even forced some) to naturally follow this same course of action that has already occurred in the past but was always meant to occur in the present too.

Thanks! I really respect your analyses whenever you pop up in a thread so to have you quote such large swathes of my view on it is just too much for me to take. :blushing: I would love to hear some of your insights on this topic too!

Here is where I will say I somewhat disagree with you @Feather Crystal, that Daenerys was the originator, as I think she was both cause and symptom due to the nature of causality. I've been doing some research into Buddhism and I think GRRM has taken heavy inspiration from that religion in particular in crafting his world. First off, there's Ariya (also translated Arya) meaning "noble" or spiritual warrior, one who seeks to dissolve the self in order to remove themselves from the cycle of death and rebirth. If you go with @LmL's take on the Breaking (like your inversion theory I agree for the most part, I just have some middling differences) and its three turnings, there's the Buddhist equivalent in the Three Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma. Interestingly, in a specific Chinese school of thought holds a fourth turning, kind of like the breaking causes one sword to become two and therefore causes three swords/turns to become four.

Kind of buried the lead like I always do but I wanted to show that I'm not just harping on a single similarity. The point I'm trying to get to is the concept of Pratītyasamutpāda, which translates as either "dependent arising" or "dependent origination," and is described, "if this exists, that exists; if this ceases to exist, that also ceases to exist." Specifically I want to focus on the Twelve Nidanas, the causal links Buddha laid out as intrinsic to the endless cycle of karma, death and rebirth. Interestingly, birth is sectioned off as past, while rebirth is future, and everything in between is present. GRRM likes to jump around a lot in important chapters, remembering things that may seem out of place in order to recreate a pattern of events in the chapter, even though for the character the events would be out of order from the perspective of the original pattern. I can't really explain more than that, my brain becomes muddled since it's still a fresh concept I'm getting a handle on and don't have any examples at hand.

The Pratītyasamutpāda and its cycle is the dragon of time as it eats its own tail, both sustaining and devouring its self and a big reason I don't believe we will see some huge breaking of the cycle. Likely it will only be for a specific person or persons who reach that vaunted status of enlightened one, bringer of light and knowledge. Once I finish my current theory I plan on trying to figure out where these cycles of Pratītyasamutpāda occur for characters that wind up being reborn in one form or another.

ETA: Kind of brain farted. The manner in which one removes themselves from the cycle of karma is to reverse the wheel of the twelve nedanas. Pretty relevant, huh?

Sorry that was a lot of info to drop but I hope it clarifies more than confuses.

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2 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Sorry that was a lot of info to drop but I hope it clarifies more than confuses.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts Cowboy Dan.  It does add to my understanding of the concept.

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so, which is why I'm so wary of taking that business of Rhaegar [in the vision] responding that his son already has a song; the Song of Ice and Fire. It doesn't belong to him at all but rather he has a part to play.

In exactly the same way this whole series of novels is collectively entitled the Song of Ice and Fire; its a song which encompasses all of the characters, not just a single chosen one.

Yes, the whole business of the right bloodline mix will equal Jon isn't making a lot sense to me.  I'm not even sure that's what Rhaegar had in mind at all.  He at least seems to understand that he has a part to play by becoming a warrior.  He thought he was PwiP; but then changed his mind.  As a poet and bard first and foremost; giving Lyanna a crown of roses is a nod to Jenny's Song and the events that ensued.  War and grief.  The prince of dragonfles in this version of the song is Robert; who never wanted to be king, he just wanted the girl.  He didn't get the girl, ended up as king and the Targaryens are destroyed.  Another reversal or inversion tale.

ETA:  Are the songs are being replayed with different characters and outcomes.  If Aegon has a song and Jenny's Song is about Lyanna and Robert; do any other characters have a song?  What about the Bear and the Maiden Fair?  Is this about the Mormon woman who mate with bears?  Jorah and Dany?

What about Lyanna?  Is Wenda's Song her song?

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A Storm of Swords - Arya XII

They had two now, Stranger and a sorrel palfrey mare Arya had named Craven, because Sandor said she'd likely run off from the Twins the same as them. They'd found her wandering riderless through a field the morning after the slaughter. She was a good enough horse, but Arya could not love a coward. Stranger would have fought. Still, she tended the mare as best she knew. It was better than riding double with the Hound. And Craven might have been a coward, but she was young and strong as well. Arya thought that she might be able to outrun Stranger, if it came to it.

The Hound no longer watched her as closely as he had. Sometimes he did not seem to care whether she stayed or went, and he no longer bound her up in a cloak at night. One night I'll kill him in his sleep, she told herself, but she never did. One day I'll ride away on Craven, and he won't be able to catch me, she thought, but she never did that either. Where would she go? Winterfell was gone. Her grandfather's brother was at Riverrun, but he didn't know her, no more than she knew him. Maybe Lady Smallwood would take her in at Acorn Hall, but maybe she wouldn't. Besides, Arya wasn't even sure she could find Acorn Hall again. Sometimes she thought she might go back to Sharna's inn, if the floods hadn't washed it away. She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.

 

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Appearance

She was said to be young and fair

History

 

Wenda branded her trademark, a fawn, on Merrett Frey, a squire captured by the outlaws.[1] Lord Sumner Crakehall ransomed Merrett back from her.[2] It is not clear what happened to Wenda when the outlaws were destroyed.

Recent Events

A Storm of Swords

While riding with Sandor Clegane, Arya Stark wonders if she should go back to Sharna’s inn. She thinks that she could stay there with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric Dondarrion would find her there. Then, Anguy could teach her to use the bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs. Arya quickly thinks to herself that that is just stupid, and that it sounds like something Sansa Stark might dream.[3]

On his way to pay the ransom for his half-brother's grandson, Petyr Frey, Merrett Frey thinks about being captured by a woman, the one called the White Fawn, during the campaigns against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Lord Sumner had ransomed him back from the outlaws, but not before Wenda had burned a fawn into the cheek of his arse while he was her captive.[4]

A Dance with Dragons

During Alys Karstark’s wedding celebrations, Jon Snow notices that Ulmer of the Kingswood Brotherhood is proving as adept at dancing as his is at archery. Jon has no doubt that Ulmer is regaling his partners with his tales of the Kingswood Brotherhood, when he rode with Simon Toyne and Big Belly Ben and helped Wenda the White Fawn burn her mark in the buttocks of her highborn captives.[5]

 

Wenda certainly sounds like a character after Arya's heart and if Arya is a template for Lyanna; could Wenda's song also point to the events after her disappearance.  Wenda also disappears from the record.  I'm not suggesting they are the same character; only that Wenda the White Fawn's song applies to Lyanna in the same sense that a song is replayed with different characters like Jenny's Song.

Theon dreams of dead Lyanna wearing white splattered with blood at the feast of the dead:

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A Clash of Kings - Theon V

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

That Wenda's is called the outlaw queen and runs under the banner of the white fawn is also interesting. Robert becomes the outlaw rebel and his intended queen (of love and beauty) is Lyanna.  If she is also pregnant; the white fawn is the banner of her unborn child, a stag and Robert is the father. 

Three kingsguard are responsible for the demise of the Kingswood Brotherhood including Arthur Dayne and Jamie Lannister.  Another interesting connection if Arthur Dayne is involved with Lyanna's disappearance or her recovery as the case may be. However, a blood spattered white dress isn't boding well for that outcome.

The other reference to the white fawn is the sigial of House Cafferen:

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A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Yes, Your Grace." He does not speak of me. Davos felt a moment's pity for his cellmate down in the dark. He knew he should keep silent, but he was tired and sick of heart, and he heard himself say, "Sire, Lord Florent meant no treason."

"Do smugglers have another name for it? I made him Hand, and he would have sold my rights for a bowl of pease porridge. He would even have given them Shireen. Mine only child, he would have wed to a bastard born of incest." The king's voice was thick with anger. "My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen's white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison's sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. 'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends. Lord Cafferen died at Ashford Castle, cut down by Randyll Tarly whilst fighting for Robert. Lord Grandison was wounded on the Trident and died of it a year after. My brother made them love him, but it would seem that I inspire only betrayal. Even in mine own blood and kin. Brother, grandfather, cousins, good uncle . . ."

So if is Lyanna's song; what is it telling us?

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Keeping in line with the theme of endless similarities/inversions/patterns I want to point out that the three cracks that announce the rebirth of dragons and the breaking of the world are mirrored with the White Walkers always being announced by three blasts. The same pattern can be seen with patchface's triple oh,oh,oh or the raven's corn,corn,corn

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3 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Great to see your idea getting it's time in the sun, @Feather Crystal! Of course you know I'm on board with the idea, we've already discussed this a bit.

Hi Cowboy Dan! Thank you for joining the conversation! I'm honored to have you here and I quite enjoyed the thoughts you've shared thus far.

 

3 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

The big thing thing I think holding the theory back is the twisting nature of connective symbolism GRRM uses. The analogy I like best is a giant web, having clusters where different strands meet. Something that may seem like an unrelated concept is actually directly related or serves as a symbolic stand-in for the original. This makes piecing everything together extremely difficult to anyone not searching for such a pattern.

I actually quite agree. Once you get into the titled and inverted chapters, you get the impression that they are chock full of twisting symbolic meaning...for example, what do you make of this:

The girl was plainly growing tired, so Arianne called a halt. They watered the horses once again, rested for a bit, and had some cheese and fruit. Myrcella split an orange with Spotted Sylva, whilst Garin ate olives and spit the stones at Drey.

Your post has more thoughts that I want to get back to, but I'm short on time right now and will circle back.

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7 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Garin lead a quarter million of his followers to their deaths in attempting to stop a war with the dragonlords and after failing drowns his enemies in water. Jaime, upon learning Aerys wanted to drown his enemies in flame, attempts to stop a war with dragonlords and succeeds, saving half a million lives. 

Good one! When I read stuff like this I am in awe of how GRRM writes. No wonder it takes him 6+ years to write one book.

7 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

So if inversion holds true then Jaime is in the place of a Targaryen usurper by killing Aerys and taking the throne. Despite succeeding where Garin and Daemon failed, Jaime abdicates almost immediately. Perhaps Garin wasn't wanting to take the throne, only stop the war? But that would be a parallel and not an inversion, for me this is the real difficulty in trying to suss all this out. 

You've identified another parallel that on the surface doesn't seem to be inverted...yet. The Lannisters currently hold the throne, and technically you could say Cersei usurped the throne from Robert, and if Jaime was/is Cersei's willing partner in taking the throne, then his motives were more than just saving the realm from Aerys. The gold wealth of the Lannisters is like having the backing of the Golden Company.

I think the comparison is between Daemon and Jaime this time. The Daemon in the passage is the first Blackfyre Pretender, no? I used to think the parallel inversions were strictly on a one on one basis, but I no longer think that is the case. Just as Jaime is both Garin, Arianne's milk brother, and Garin the Great, he is also Daemon Blackfyre. We have yet to read Jaime's fate, but I think we can expect the opposite of Daemon somehow...or at least a twist.

Edited to add: It makes sense, at least to me, that Jaime is being compared to Daemon here. Aerys viewed Robert as the biggest threat to the throne since the Blackfyre Pretenders...Robert was grouped as a usurping Pretender. Jaime, as Daemon, succeeded where Daemon failed. Yes, technically Cersei is Daemon since she's currently in control of the throne, but was Daemon the one with the true power or was he the puppet of Bittersteel and his Golden Company?

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6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

:agree:

@ravenous reader I see you've quoted me a couple times with my opinion on time and how the events are both:

Thanks! I really respect your analyses whenever you pop up in a thread so to have you quote such large swathes of my view on it is just too much for me to take. :blushing: I would love to hear some of your insights on this topic too!

Here is where I will say I somewhat disagree with you @Feather Crystal, that Daenerys was the originator, as I think she was both cause and symptom due to the nature of causality. I've been doing some research into Buddhism and I think GRRM has taken heavy inspiration from that religion in particular in crafting his world. First off, there's Ariya (also translated Arya) meaning "noble" or spiritual warrior, one who seeks to dissolve the self in order to remove themselves from the cycle of death and rebirth. If you go with @LmL's take on the Breaking (like your inversion theory I agree for the most part, I just have some middling differences) and its three turnings, there's the Buddhist equivalent in the Three Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma. Interestingly, in a specific Chinese school of thought holds a fourth turning, kind of like the breaking causes one sword to become two and therefore causes three swords/turns to become four.

Kind of buried the lead like I always do but I wanted to show that I'm not just harping on a single similarity. The point I'm trying to get to is the concept of Pratītyasamutpāda, which translates as either "dependent arising" or "dependent origination," and is described, "if this exists, that exists; if this ceases to exist, that also ceases to exist." Specifically I want to focus on the Twelve Nidanas, the causal links Buddha laid out as intrinsic to the endless cycle of karma, death and rebirth. Interestingly, birth is sectioned off as past, while rebirth is future, and everything in between is present. GRRM likes to jump around a lot in important chapters, remembering things that may seem out of place in order to recreate a pattern of events in the chapter, even though for the character the events would be out of order from the perspective of the original pattern. I can't really explain more than that, my brain becomes muddled since it's still a fresh concept I'm getting a handle on and don't have any examples at hand.

The Pratītyasamutpāda and its cycle is the dragon of time as it eats its own tail, both sustaining and devouring its self and a big reason I don't believe we will see some huge breaking of the cycle. Likely it will only be for a specific person or persons who reach that vaunted status of enlightened one, bringer of light and knowledge. Once I finish my current theory I plan on trying to figure out where these cycles of Pratītyasamutpāda occur for characters that wind up being reborn in one form or another.

ETA: Kind of brain farted. The manner in which one removes themselves from the cycle of karma is to reverse the wheel of the twelve nedanas. Pretty relevant, huh?

Sorry that was a lot of info to drop but I hope it clarifies more than confuses.

I think I understand what you are saying, but there seems to be plentiful examples of parallel inversions that I still think the dragon has eaten itself inside out. 

3 hours ago, Armstark said:

Keeping in line with the theme of endless similarities/inversions/patterns I want to point out that the three cracks that announce the rebirth of dragons and the breaking of the world are mirrored with the White Walkers always being announced by three blasts. The same pattern can be seen with patchface's triple oh,oh,oh or the raven's corn,corn,corn

Yes, the repeats in triplicate! I agree these are deliberate parallels...the two sides of the same coin.

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6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The girl was plainly growing tired, so Arianne called a halt. They watered the horses once again, rested for a bit, and had some cheese and fruit. Myrcella split an orange with Spotted Sylva, whilst Garin ate olives and spit the stones at Drey.

Hmm, not entirely sure to be honest. If oranges aren't an independent symbol of blood oranges then I have one idea.

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He tilted his chin back and squeezed the blood orange, so the juice ran down into his mouth. "I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers," he complained, wiping his hands. "Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean." -Sansa VI, ASOS

Littlefinger doesn't like getting his hands dirty. Perhaps the split orange represents that they're sharing the load of responsibility? I have to read the chapter in full and get some better context, it's been too long since I've read the Dornish chapters and haven't gotten to those POVs in my re-read. I'll probably have something more to add later, once I get back home and can spend more time on it.

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You've identified another parallel that on the surface doesn't seem to be inverted...yet. The Lannisters currently hold the throne, and technically you could say Cersei usurped the throne from Robert, and if Jaime was/is Cersei's willing partner in taking the throne, then his motives were more than just saving the realm from Aerys. The gold wealth of the Lannisters is like having the backing of the Golden Company.

I think the comparison is between Daemon and Jaime this time. The Daemon in the passage is the first Blackfyre Pretender, no? I used to think the parallel inversions were strictly on a one on one basis, but I no longer think that is the case. Just as Jaime is both Garin, Arianne's milk brother, and Garin the Great, he is also Daemon Blackfyre. We have yet to read Jaime's fate, but I think we can expect the opposite of Daemon somehow...or at least a twist.

Edited to add: It makes sense, at least to me, that Jaime is being compared to Daemon here. Aerys viewed Robert as the biggest threat to the throne since the Blackfyre Pretenders...Robert was grouped as a usurping Pretender. Jaime, as Daemon, succeeded where Daemon failed. Yes, technically Cersei is Daemon since she's currently in control of the throne, but was Daemon the one with the true power or was he the puppet of Bittersteel and his Golden Company?

Actually it's Daemon II Blackfyre hence why I mentioned Whitewalls. I'll edit the quotes to add the sources I got them from, I usually don't forget that... whoops again! That said, Jaime/Cersei share some pretty direct parallels (not inversions) with Daemon/Rhaenyra during the Dance and was the starting point for my interest in the A+J=J+C angle. Don't think there's much for inversion there. I'll add more to this soon, it seems I'm out of time.

ETA: ~~I should have broken it up a little better. From mentioning the defeats at the Trident and on is focusing on Jaime/Daemon II and not Garin. It's a parallel now that I think on it but specific dualities are flipped. For instance Jaime is gold and wears fetters then becomes muddied whereas Daemon II is defeated, muddied and wears golden fetters. Likewise both are captured to prevent reprisal from their enemies but Jaime is captured to protect against the crown whereas Daemon II is captured to protect the crown.

Bittersteel actually wasn't involved in the second Blackfyre rebellion. When Dunk overhears Peake and Heddle arguing it's mentioned that Bittersteel isn't confident enough and once they win a few victories he would follow suit, crossing the Narrow Sea quick enough~~

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think I understand what you are saying, but there seems to be plentiful examples of parallel inversions that I still think the dragon has eaten itself inside out. 

Wasn't trying to come off as if I was proposing an alternate explanation, both can exist peacefully! I was just using that as an example for how I think causality works and why Dany may not be the only cause for the cycle of time getting out of joint. My first thought was Summerhall as the dependent origination and in your timeline that is where everything goes off the rails, where the cycle starts to fall apart. Aegon V likely performed the same ritual as Dany, seeking to wake dragons from stone and had the same intense vision she had, causing the Tragedy at Summerhall.

ETA: Newtonian causality : Cause --> Effect

Pratītyasamutpāda : Cause<-->Effect

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On 12/1/2016 at 1:59 PM, Black Crow said:

Through the Looking Glass, and What Alice Found There is the sequel novel to Lewis Carroll’s Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and was written in 1871. Alice is playing with a white kitten named Snowdrop and a black kitten called Kitty, when she ponders what the world would be like on the other side of the mirror’s reflection. She climbs up onto the fireplace mantel to poke at the mirror and discovers that she is able to step through it to an alternate world. She finds a book of poetry named Jabberwocky, whose reversed print can only be read by holding it up to the mirror. Alice met a well known nursery rhyme creature called Humpty Dumpty, but in GRRM's tale we know him as Patchface, and he has been trying to tell us that ASOIAF is Jabberwocky, and that the north is upside down and under water: 

Hi Feather -- the elucidator of GRRM's 'crystal geometry' :) ! --

GRRM definitely took inspiration from Alice's 'Through the Looking Glass.'  

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

...Maester Aemon would no doubt understand. Before he had lost his sight, the maester had loved books as much as Samwell Tarly did. He understood the way that you could sometimes fall right into them, as if each page was a hole into another world.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Who are you?" Meera Reed was asking.

Bran knew. "She's a child. A child of the forest." He shivered, as much from wonderment as cold. They had fallen into one of Old Nan's tales.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Is this the only way in?" asked Meera.

"The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole."

That was all he had to say. Not even Hodor could climb down into a sinkhole with Bran heavy on his back, and Jojen could no more walk three leagues than run a thousand.

The latter, often-overlooked detail provides an interesting look into the quirky way GRRM thinks.  There are two ways from Bran's vantage point to access Bloodraven's cave:  either the short, direct route, up the hill, going forwards from south to north; or the longer, indirect route, down a sinkhole, and then from there backtracking from north to south.  There are many such 'back doors' GRRM has constructed into the literal and figurative landscape, analogous to Alice poking at the mirror, falling down a 'sinkhole' and discovering a language in which the letters must be traced in reverse.

Lewis Carroll was a mathematician with a keen interest in chess, as evidenced by his characters modeled on chess pieces who play the grisly chess game.  Like him, GRRM who almost attained chess master status similarly has an interest in setting up the structure of his plots like a chessboard, where players take turns playing with the white and black pieces.  I found an interesting piece of trivia which might appeal to you, as discussed on this blog why does white move first in chess.  Apparently, although it is accepted convention now that the 'white' player makes the first move, this wasn't always the case.  Thus, the blogger makes the interesting point that games with 'black' openings that were originally played in the past before the convention was altered have had to be subsequently recorded as 'mirror inversions' of the game that was actually played.  In other words, the 'black' and 'white' moves have been subsequently switched to accord with standard.  As I understand this, the sequence of the moves wouldn't actually be played in reverse order the way you are suggesting with 'inversion', so the analogy doesn't hold true all the way.  It doesn't really make sense to play the moves in a chess game in reverse order, i.e. from checkmate to opening move, since the game always ends in checkmate.  However, it's possible that someone who is able to hold a complicated sequence of chess moves in mind -- of which GRRM is certainly capable -- may conceivably be able to run those moves in reverse mentally!

Quote

As late as the mid-to-late 19th century, the practice of White moving first had not yet become standard: it was either white or black that could start the game!
In annotations of some of the old games you'll see "adjustments" saying the players have been inverted (black<->white) to comply with today's requirements (especially computer programs that don't accept black beginnings.

The most known game is the "immortal game", played between Adolf Anderssen and Lionel Kieseritzky:

...

Yes, I know, it looks like white had the first move but...that's not true and you can check for yourself in the original book: The Chess Player, written by Bernard Horwitz and Joseph Kling, published by R.Hastings in London, 1852.
You'll see that Black was the one to start the game:

...

I had absolutely no idea that I was looking at a mirrored game in my database!

In support of GRRM's 'chess mentality' as applied to his narrative, a while ago I had an interesting discussion with @Pain killer Jane regarding the possible ways in which he may be configuring his characters as chess pieces, specifically focusing on 'rooks':

On 11/7/2016 at 6:06 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

I also need to mention that in the article I sent you @ravenous reader, in Scotland scarecrows are called bodach-rocais or 'old man of the rooks' and a rook is a tower and we have several towers known to be rookeries with a lot of crows. And given, that I saw that GRRM was a step below a chess master, this is not a coincidence.

...

By the way, I think it might be significant that the word rook is derived from the Persian word meaning chariot.  

 

On 11/8/2016 at 4:16 PM, ravenous reader said:

That's fascinating.  I wish I knew more about chess, since there are probably multiple hidden chess motifs and moves we might identify.  For example, it's been drawn to my attention that if a pawn crosses the board it can become a queen (essentially adding an extra queen to a game which previously only had two), which if you think about it is what Baelish intends doing with Sansa his prime piece in the game!

@Feather Crystal: wouldn't this make Baelish one of the 'Queenmakers'?  How would he figure into the Arianne story?  Myrcella seems to be in a similar position as Sansa: a valuable pawn who if successfully having been brought to 'cross the board' will provide someone the asset of possessing an extra queen.

Quote

Regarding 'rooks' and 'rookeries', great catch connecting (scare)crows to chess!  Like 'rooks' in chess, the crow or scarecrow figures also come in 'black' and 'white,' e.g. the black vs. white ravens, or the black Night's Watch brothers facing off against the white (br)Others on the other side of the board ...'under the sea the crows are white as snow...'  

Maybe Bran is a bit of a chess grand master himself considering he's a greenseer for whom a powerful chess piece like the rook would be emblematic, considering his association with crows and broken towers struck by lightning and noting how he 'perches' like a raven, crow or scarecrow on the 'bridge connecting the second floor of the rookery with the fourth floor of the belltower...'  That sounds like code to me for something of uncertain significance, perhaps even a checkmating chess move!  Any ideas?  I've read the rook is often instrumental in bringing about 'checkmate' in the chess endgame, which is precisely what we've been anticipating regarding Bran and his role in the impending Long Night/War for the Dawn.  The 'bell tower' might symbolise the embattled King -- bells are often rung for the death of kings, executions, rebellions, a king under siege in the case of the Battle of the Bells, the transfer of power, etc. -- so 'sending a rook to the belltower' might be a checkmate move?  Although the rook begins the game relatively hemmed in in its options, as the game progresses it acquires greater freedom of movement and becomes ever more deadly, perhaps reflecting Bran's progress from cripple to major player! 

In line with your scarecrow suggestion, rooks in chess have also been depicted as 'warders,' 'watchers' or 'beserkers' (wolfskin-wearing warriors associated with Odin) depending on the chess set, and fittingly in heraldic depictions the crenellated battlements may morph into horns, evoking @LmL's 'horned greenseers' and more specifically the outward-curving horned headdress of a court jester or fool such as Patchface, bringing us back to the scarecrow trilogy 'clever bird clever man clever fool'!

Unfortunately, I can't develop this analogy very much further, since I don't play chess.  Can anyone familiar with the game help?

5 hours ago, Armstark said:

Keeping in line with the theme of endless similarities/inversions/patterns I want to point out that the three cracks that announce the rebirth of dragons and the breaking of the world are mirrored with the White Walkers always being announced by three blasts. The same pattern can be seen with patchface's triple oh,oh,oh or the raven's corn,corn,corn

I love this!  Your observation on the dragons and white walkers being similarly announced is great -- it's like 'a loud knock on the door' of a stranger/Stranger seeking entry, the dragons and Others coming in by the front and back doors of the kingdom respectively!   It's apt how they are mirror inverses of each other both in terms of element - fire vs. ice -- and trajectory -- the dragons and white walkers invade from the south vs. north respectively.  Additionally, given the Others' language which sounds like 'ice cracking', they may also be said to have a 'cracking' voice similar to the dragons -- 'ice cracking' vs. 'fire cracking' (similarly, others with 'cracked voices' include Santa, Satan, Patchface, Bloodraven, Joffrey, Robert Baratheon and many other characters representing the good vs. evil/black vs. white dialectic).  Joffrey's last choking guttural 'words' were 'kuf kuf kuf'...in reverse 'fuk fuk fuk' -- GRRM's joke?  On another thread we've recently been thinking about the 'oh, oh, oh' which when reversed can read 'ho, ho, ho'...In Medieval mystery plays the latter is referred to as the 'devil's bluster,' the guttural laugh with which Satan's entry onto the stage is heralded.  In keeping with the theme of inversions, Satan is an anagram of Santa, who likewise gives a throaty chuckle.  Bloodraven too:

Quote

ADWD-Bran III

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran’s dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. “I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden.”

“I have an uncle Brynden,” Bran said. “He’s my mother’s uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he’s called.”

“Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember.” His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.

From this passage, we not only get the idea that one person may play different roles (and wear different names), but also that one name or a variation thereof (e.g. Brandon/Brynden) may be shared by multiple people -- implying they might represent 'echoes' or even 'inversions' of one another over time as some of you have mentioned.

This is a good summary of how and why the Satan/Santa duality developed:

19 hours ago, LmL said:

You have to remember that St. Nick was created as a way of baptizing the Wild Man, since they could not stamp out his worship. They bifurcated that legend, exiling the carnal, unrestrained and wild aspects to the goat -horned devil, and created St. Nick the kind of Father Christmas as a sanitized version. It's a really fascinating use of mythology as propaganda. I think it was @Pain killer Jane who recommend this link a page ago on this thread, it's terrific, and expert from a book called Santa Claus: Last of the Wild Men:

https://books.google.com/books?id=hkw2bPlfTUQC&pg=PA69&dq=devil's+bluster&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRqsaIkdvQAhUO02MKHfZyCyQQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=devil&f=false

@Cowboy Dan  Thank you for your kind words.  I've admired your posts from afar, so glad we have made contact.  I have much to say regarding your current observations, particularly all things Jaime and A+J=J+-C...I am sold on my 'obsession' in that respect, although no-one around me ever seems as keen, so glad I have found someone who shares that compelling, albeit unorthodox, view of mine (sadly the fandom has been duped by Yandel into dismissing the overwhelming symbolic evidence!)  I will write more shortly .:)

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19 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Hmm, not entirely sure to be honest. If oranges aren't an independent symbol of blood oranges then I have one idea.

Littlefinger doesn't like getting his hands dirty. Perhaps the split orange represents that they're sharing the load of responsibility? I have to read the chapter in full and get some better context, it's been too long since I've read the Dornish chapters and haven't gotten to those POVs in my re-read. I'll probably have something more to add later, once I get back home and can spend more time on it.

Actually it's Daemon II Blackfyre hence why I mentioned Whitewalls. I'll edit the quotes to add the sources I got them from, I usually don't forget that... whoops again! That said, Jaime/Cersei share some pretty direct parallels (not inversions) with Daemon/Rhaenyra during the Dance and was the starting point for my interest in the A+J=J+C angle. Don't think there's much for inversion there. I'll add more to this soon, it seems I'm out of time.

Wasn't trying to come off as if I was proposing an alternate explanation, both can exist peacefully! I was just using that as an example for how I think causality works and why Dany may not be the only cause for the cycle of time getting out of joint. My first thought was Summerhall as the dependent origination and in your timeline that is where everything goes off the rails, where the cycle starts to fall apart. Aegon V likely performed the same ritual as Dany, seeking to wake dragons from stone and had the same intense vision she had, causing the Tragedy at Summerhall.

I had my own thoughts about Myrcella splitting an orange with Spotted Sylva, and Garin eating olives and spitting them at Drey, but I was curious what you'd come up with.

That quote comes from The Queenmaker chapter. In it GRRM kept referring to Myrcella as "little" Myrcella which I theorized was more than who she was as a person. She represents a marriage alliance between the throne and Dorne. Technically she's both Lyannna and Cersei. Lyanna was promised to Robert, thus representing an alliance between the north and the potential throne of the Rebellion. Then of course Cersei ends up taking that spot. 

There are multiple references to females with "spots": Besides Spotted Sylva, Myrcella's handmaiden, Rosamund had her hair dyed to look like Myrcella and redspots were painted on her face to keep people away. Cersei's childhood friend freckled Melara who was "healthy as a little horse", and Wenda the White Fawn, seem to echo Lyanna. It's not quite clear, but this chapter includes Cersei, Lyanna, and Ashara (the handmaiden) into a mixture of symbolism.

I looked up "orange" symbolism and it kind of took me aback. It's meant to symbolize the female genitalia, especially a peeled orange, so splitting an orange, well, I think you catch my drift.

Olives symbolize "life", but Garin (Jaime) spitting the pits towards Drey's direction seem to have a double meaning to me. I had identified Drey as Arthur Dayne in that chapter, which I can go over my reasoning if you'd like clarification, but for the sake of brevity I'll just state I think it's Arthur, anyways, is Jaime accusing Arthur of incest with Ashara just like Jaime and Cersi, or is he accusing Arthur of impregnating Lyanna?

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@ravenous reader @Black Crow Errrm, I can't tell you how much I am loving the Humpty Dumpty find!!!! This is a :bang: for me because I usually love to spot these children's tales connections in Bran's arc. I found a Pinocchio link a while back, so this makes perfect sense! 

The term Humpty Dumpty is actually a phrase used to describe a drunk person. Humpty Dumpty was not ever an egg until later versions where the riddle was turned into a child's nursery rhyme. It was a riddle first about a drunk man who falls down and the idea that you can never help a lackwit such as that.... and isn't this how most people treat Patchface?!?!?!!

Two of the earlier HD riddles are:

  1. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
    Four-score Men and Four-score more,

    Could not make Humpty Dumpty where he was before.
  2. Humpty Dumpty lay in a beck.
    With all his sinews around his neck;
    Forty Doctors and forty wrights
    Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty to rights!
    • A beck is a small creek or waterside. Hmmm, where was Patcface found???

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It was a riddle first about a drunk man who falls down and the idea that you can never help a lackwit such as that.... and isn't this how most people treat Patchface?!?!?!!

And Tyrion and Mushroom!

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6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

...

I looked up "orange" symbolism and it kind of took me aback. It's meant to symbolize the female genitalia, especially a peeled orange, so splitting an orange, well, I think you catch my drift.

...

I always thought that oranges,and blood oranges, in this story meant a family connection... but this also makes sense. It reminds me of the early AGOT scene between Sansa and Arya where Arya throws a blood orange at Sansa, who then has to dye her dress to cover the "blood" stain as Sansa later burns her sheets to cover that blood stain.

  • A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

    Alyn carried the Stark banner. When she saw him rein in beside Lord Beric to exchange words, it made Sansa feel ever so proud. Alyn was handsomer than Jory had been; he was going to be a knight one day.
    The Tower of the Hand seemed so empty after they left that Sansa was even pleased to see Arya when she went down to break her fast. "Where is everyone?" her sister wanted to know as she ripped the skin from a blood orange. "Did Father send them to hunt down Jaime Lannister?"...
    "It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."
    "Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.
    "Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap...
    "My thanks, Septa Mordane. I would talk to my daughters alone, if you would be so kind." The septa bowed and left.
    "Arya started it," Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. "She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey. She hates that I'm going to marry the prince. She tries to spoil everything, Father, she can't stand for anything to be beautiful or nice or splendid."

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10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I usually love to spot these children's tales connections in Bran's arc.

I always thought that Come into my castle was modeled after Red Rover/Forcing the City Gates. 

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

And Tyrion and Mushroom!

I know :lol: These are the characters I want to trust the most to tell the real story!

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21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I had my own thoughts about Myrcella splitting an orange with Spotted Sylva, and Garin eating olives and spitting them at Drey, but I was curious what you'd come up with.

That quote comes from The Queenmaker chapter. In it GRRM kept referring to Myrcella as "little" Myrcella which I theorized was more than who she was as a person. She represents a marriage alliance between the throne and Dorne. Technically she's both Lyannna and Cersei. Lyanna was promised to Robert, thus representing an alliance between the north and the potential throne of the Rebellion. Then of course Cersei ends up taking that spot. 

There are multiple references to females with "spots": Besides Spotted Sylva, Myrcella's handmaiden, Rosamund had her hair dyed to look like Myrcella and redspots were painted on her face to keep people away. Cersei's childhood friend freckled Melara who was "healthy as a little horse", and Wenda the White Fawn, seem to echo Lyanna. It's not quite clear, but this chapter includes Cersei, Lyanna, and Ashara (the handmaiden) into a mixture of symbolism.

I looked up "orange" symbolism and it kind of took me aback. It's meant to symbolize the female genitalia, especially a peeled orange, so splitting an orange, well, I think you catch my drift.

Olives symbolize "life", but Garin (Jaime) spitting the pits towards Drey's direction seem to have a double meaning to me. I had identified Drey as Arthur Dayne in that chapter, which I can go over my reasoning if you'd like clarification, but for the sake of brevity I'll just state I think it's Arthur, anyways, is Jaime accusing Arthur of incest with Ashara just like Jaime and Cersi, or is he accusing Arthur of impregnating Lyanna?

Just a quick word - spotted females may well be a way of symbolizing cotf, who are dappled like a fawn. The Spotted Cat is a good example of this, combined the cat symbolism of the cotf and the BSE's Tiger Woman with being "spotted."

Also, that's really interesting about oranges, because I had figured that the blood oranges which fall and spatter so much are pretty obvious "fire moon" symbols, complete with moon blood (and of course they fall in Dorne, where the Hammer of the Waters fell). The association with female genitalia therefore makes quite a lot of sense. 

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2 minutes ago, LmL said:

Just a quick word - spotted females may well be a way of symbolizing cotf, who are dappled like a fawn. The Spotted Cat is a good example of this, combined the cat symbolism of the cotf and the BSE's Tiger Woman with being "spotted."

You know there is an interpretation that the name Cerberus has an ultimate etymology that meant speckled or spotted. 

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20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Black Crow Errrm, I can't tell you how much I am loving the Humpty Dumpty find!!!!

Beg to point out that aint a post I have ever written

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16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Beg to point out that aint a post I have ever written

Oopsy. I must have missed it when typing so fast. :cheers:

This is in the second post of this thread and this is what I was referring to:

  • Alice met a well known nursery rhyme creature called Humpty Dumpty, but in GRRM's tale we know him as Patchface, and he has been trying to tell us that ASOIAF is Jabberwocky, and that the north is upside down and under water: 

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