Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time

[Pain killer Jane]

11 hours ago, LmL said:

Most of these line up well with the idea of the moon being a victim which then transforms into a dragon or dragons. The moon is an egg at first, a receiver, a sacrifice. Then it dies, transforms, and becomes a predator. There could obviously be more to it than that, but I thought I would mention it. Nice observation here, I'll have to keep this in the back of my mind.

I like that interpretation because it fits with the drowned/revenge goddess motify Lady Stoneheart has going on especially now that she is hunting down Freys (one being a fertility god) and Lannisters (predators). I just had a thought is there ever an instance where a woman featured in the wild hunt scenario? But I think that might be a question for the Horn of Winter crowd. 

Do you think this could also be in relation to the naked bear goddess hanging on the front of the Mormont seat of power?

 

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I like that interpretation because it fits with the drowned/revenge goddess motify Lady Stoneheart has going on especially now that she is hunting down Freys (one being a fertility god) and Lannisters (predators). I just had a thought is there ever an instance where a woman featured in the wild hunt scenario? But I think that might be a question for the Horn of Winter crowd. 

Do you think this could also be in relation to the naked bear goddess hanging on the front of the Mormont seat of power?

 

The naked bear goddess of House Mormont is interesting to me because it's another version of a madonna figure.  The mother holding a weapon (a mace) to protect her child.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Maege has also named one of her daughters Lyanna, perhaps after the one who holds the same fierce protective values as the women of Bear Island.   Which also calls to mind those named Wylla in the story: Wylla Manderley who sounds very much like a wolf-blooded women in her defense of the Starks and Wylla of Wyl, a warrior woman.   I don't think it's a coincidence that Ned names Jon's mother as Wylla.

[Pain killer Jane]

15 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Likewise I don't doubt that there are inversion inside the titled chapters. However I'm not convinced of the notion that inversion is a defining characteristic of these chapters. The titles take the place of names, and that seems to be a strong indication that what we are dealing with is a question of identity. The chapter titles replace a clear indicator of the person -- their name -- with a descriptive indicator of the role that person plays.

Titled chapters seem to convey the idea that the PoV is undergoing some transformative questioning of their identity. Thus Barristan goes from Kingsguard to Queensguard, starts to question his own simplicity as a soldier who can unthinkingly follow orders in The Broken Knight, realises that he must make important and difficult decisions rather than just blindly guard kings as he had before in the Kingbreaker, and is transformed into a true decision maker as The Queen's Hand. Theon starts of as Reek, but then becomes the joke Prince in Winterfell, is forced to recognise that his life has turned into a desperation of trying to survive by pleasing others in as a Turncloak and eventually sees the ghost of his former self in A Ghost in Winterfell before he can renew himself to become Theon again.

I haven't gone through every titled chapter to demonstrate that this pattern holds, but this isn't a theory I've looked at too closely, it's just the interpretation I've assumed on reading. If I was to do a thread about it, I'd want to provide a justification for each titled chapter. The basic principle that must hold is that every titled chapter must have something demonstrably in common. Likewise I think you have to show a strong indication of inversion can be found in every titled chapter as a foundation argument for your thesis. OP proposes, but doesn't really show, that this pattern is there. 

Ah but the question of identity takes place in front of a mirror and you are essentially asking your reflection "who are you?" And I think GRRM is making a comment that all of character within the named chapters are narcissistic, vain and hubristic about those identities. Remember how Barry reacted to the news of Jaime becoming the LC after him but later on he reflects and talks about the flaws of his fellow KGs members and he admits that some of his brothers fell into temptation. And therefore unable to look away from that reflection because you find satisfaction there can kill you. Victarian almost died if he hadn't allowed Moqorro to heal him and we need to remember that the scene mimics Drogo's healing and the theory that Mirri healed him with something that required abstaining from certain indulgences and told Mirri he was the khal and he could do whatever he wanted. So I wonder what will happen with Vic's arm. 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

The naked bear goddess of House Mormont is interesting to me because it's another version of a madonna figure.  The mother holding a weapon (a mace) to protect her child.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Maege has also named one of her daughters Lyanna, perhaps after the one who holds the same fierce protective values as the women of Bear Island.   Which also calls to mind those named Wylla in the story: Wylla Manderley who sounds very much like a wolf-blooded women in her defense of the Starks and Wylla of Wyl, a warrior woman.   I don't think it's a coincidence that Ned names Jon's mother as Wylla.

I thought it was a battle axe.

You might be on to something. And there is a Lonnel Snow who was the son of a Brandon Stark and a Wylla Fenn who is a crannogman and if she was anything like Meera than that would make sense. 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I thought it was a battle axe.

You might be on to something. And there is a Lonnel Snow who was the son of a Brandon Stark and a Wylla Fenn who is a crannogman and if she was anything like Meera than that would make sense. 

I know that Maege uses a battleaxe in Rob's campaign.  It sounds to me like the Mormont's and the Manderley's know something about Lyanna that we don't.

[Kingmonkey]

Quote

 

I'm going to break the wheel!

--Daenerys, "Hardhome"

 

Is it a heresy too far even for Heresy to suggest that Dave and Dan might actually know what they are doing? I'll get on to that, but for the moment let me just leave a small fact with you. Dave & Dan met at Trinity College, Dublin. Benioff wrote his thesis on Samuel Becket, Weiss on James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake.

The broad pattern of Westerosi history is a pretty familiar one. It's a story of invasions. First we have the Children of the Forest, then came the First Men, then the Andals, then the Targaryens. People have often tried to connect this to British history. The Children are the native neolithic people, the First Men are Bronze age proto-Celts, the Andals are iron-age Celts/Saxons, the high-culture Targs are Romans or Normans. GRRM is referencing an idea of cultural invasions that became a common currency in post-Tolkein fantasy. 

Though the model of radical changes to history being marked by a series of invasions by people of ever-increasing sophistication has largely fallen out of favour amongst historians, it's one that continues to fire imaginations. The pattern of what was thought to be history fitted nicely with the patterns of mythology, and that excited writers such as Graves who were concerned with the anthropology of myth, and this in turn inspired many fantasy writers.

What better way to explain myths of the "little people", vulnerable to iron, mostly driven out by man but still hidden away in faraway places at the edges of the known world, than to consider the way that history tells us of invasions of tall iron-wielding warriors who drove the older inhabitants to the edges of the land?

Dividing history up into these cycles of invasion is a lovely tool for a storyteller. It provides mystery, wonder and conflict. It allows the writer to use mirroring as part of his storytelling toolbox. It's rather less popular amongst historians though. These days it's generally accepted that history isn't all about invasion and replacement, but has a lot more to do with settling and integration. The big shifts happen on a cultural level -- the new culture of the incomer overwhelms but also integrates with the existing culture.

The origin of this idea of a pattern of invasions in ancient British history almost certainly comes from a very old idea, probably translated into a British context from an Irish origin during the 7th-10th centuries, when Irish scholarship was so influential in Britain and throughout Europe. The Irish precedent is best known in the Lebor Gabála Érenn, the Book of the Taking of Ireland, which seems to synthesise ancient Irish pseudohistory with Christian notions of historicity in describing six waves of invasions. However the application of a similar sequence of invasions as described in the Lebor Gabála to British history probably predates that work in anything approaching its modern form, as we can see clear indications of an Irish influence on Nennius' Historia Brittonum. As similar patterns of multiple invasions seem to have been believed by the continental Gauls as well, we may be seeing traces of some quite ancient beliefs. 

This idea of cycles of Irish history came under renewed scrutiny in the first half of the 20th century, with the rise of interest in Irish mythology following Irish independence. One of the Irish writers who was inspired by it was James Joyce (remember Dan Weiss' thesis?) Joyce's Finnegan's Wake has the concept of cyclical history running through it, referencing the cycles of Irish history and mythology throughout.

The first publication by Samuel Beckett (remember David Benioff's thesis?) was a scholarly anthology, Our Exagmination Round His Factification for Incamination of Work in Progress (don't blame me!), a look at Work In Progress, a text by Joyce that would be eventually published as Finnegan's Wake. In it Beckett discusses the importance to Joyce's cyclical symbolism of the work of the 18th century philosopher Giambattista Vico. 

Vico's ideas were based on the belief that historians were getting it wrong when they assumed that people of the past thought the same way that people in the present do. He proposed that the status quo of human thought and behaviour would inevitably lead to a cultural/historical shift to a new pattern of thought and a new cycle of history. Furthermore, he proposed that these cycles formed a sequence of what he called corsi e ricorsi (occurrence and occurrence) --  a wheel of time, where the last "age" would give rise to a recurrence of the first age. 

Vico's three ages were:

The Age of Gods, an era of poetic understanding in which society was small scale, groups being lead by divine leaders through ritual and metaphorical understanding of nature and the world around them, with little competition between those divine leaders,

The Age of Heroes, an era of symbolic understanding in which the accrual of power to leaders gives rise to dominant "heroes" of ever increasing power, who define the terms by which the world is understood,

and The Age of Man, in which rationality frees the general population from the tyranny of the Heroes and their control over the world by defining it. No longer subject to the terms defined by those "Heroes", the common man can develop their own way of viewing the world.

Finally, the freedom and self-reflection of the Age of Man gives rise to a return to a poetic understanding of the world, and a return to the Age of Gods.

I'd say that we have a pretty clear match in the society of the Children of the Forest for an Age of Gods. We actually have GRRM using the "Age of Heroes" term himself. So let's go back to that quote from the TV series, this time in full:

Quote

Dany: Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell. They’re all just spokes on a wheel. This one’s on top, then that one’s on top, and on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground.
Tyrion: It's a beautiful dream. Stopping the wheel. You’re not the first person who’s ever dreamt it.
Dany: I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.

Doesn't that sound very much like an end to Vico's Age of Heroes and a start of the more democratic Age of Man?

Of course this is the show, not the books. Dave & Dan are certainly familiar with Joyce's work and Vico's influence, but can we be sure that's not their own bias coming through? Is there anything to connect all this to GRRM, apart from the naming of the "Age of Heroes" which could so easily be coincidental?

Actually there is. One of the odd ways in which Finnegan's Wake presents the idea of cyclical history, of corsi e recorsi, is that the opening sentence of the novel turns out to be a continuation of the last sentence of the novel. That opening line is possibly the most famous in 20th century literature, and it's not something a writer would be likely to reference unknowingly. Finnegan's Wake is written in an extraordinary way, full of peculiar phrases, multiple languages, invented and compounded words and generally just stuff that makes you go "Wut?" Joyce stamps that notion out in the very first word:

Quote

   riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

James Joyce, Finnegan's Wake

Things to note here -- Eve and Adam's refers to a church in Dublin, but also gives us the idea of a starting point in history. The odd drop into Latin "commodius vicus" might mean something like "a pleasant part of town" but seems to be a nod to Vico. The "recirculation" of the river of course reflects the notion of a recircling "river of time".

Then of course, there is "riverrun", so oddly uncapitalised and indented. The most famous word in a famous opening line. Familiar to pretty much any student of literature, even the sane ones who don't try to read Finnegan's Wake. A weird and unforgettable portmanteau that elicits the book's first "Wut?" in the very first word. The word has been endlessly discussed by Joyce scholars; it brings to mind Coleridge's "where Alph, the sacred river ran, past caverns measureless to man, down to a sunless sea" (as an aside, GRRM references this line quite clearly in a Bran chapter in aDWD). It may bring to mind "riverrano", Italian for "they will come again" or "reverons", French for "we will see (or meet) again".

Of course Riverrun also the name of the seat of House Tully. 

 

[Kingmonkey]

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Ah but the question of identity takes place in front of a mirror and you are essentially asking your reflection "who are you?" And I think GRRM is making a comment that all of character within the named chapters are narcissistic, vain and hubristic about those identities.

Holding up a mirror to your vanity is a good way to start questioning who you are. I'm not sure that all the questions of identity are that narcissistic -- we have the Arya identifying herself as Cat of the Canals, a creature who passes by ignored by everyone, for example. Theon's Prince in Winterfell is a mocking title -- he becomes the prince again to fulfil a role at someone else's whim. 

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Victarian almost died if he hadn't allowed Moqorro to heal him and we need to remember that the scene mimics Drogo's healing and the theory that Mirri healed him with something that required abstaining from certain indulgences and told Mirri he was the khal and he could do whatever he wanted. So I wonder what will happen with Vic's arm. 

The weirdest thing to me about that chapter is the way it ends. 

Quote

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

For some reason, the chapter stops being from Victarion's PoV entirely, and becomes third person narrative. It's almost as if Victarion had died. The "Iron Suitor" identity ends and with the next chapter, we revert to "Victarion 1". 

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Is it a heresy too far even for Heresy to suggest that Dave and Dan might actually know what they are doing? I'll get on to that, but for the moment let me just leave a small fact with you. Dave & Dan met at Trinity College, Dublin. Benioff wrote his thesis on Samuel Becket, Weiss on James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake.

That was a fascinating read!    D&D know what they are doing regarding what in particular?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

Likewise I don't doubt that there are inversion inside the titled chapters. However I'm not convinced of the notion that inversion is a defining characteristic of these chapters. The titles take the place of names, and that seems to be a strong indication that what we are dealing with is a question of identity. The chapter titles replace a clear indicator of the person -- their name -- with a descriptive indicator of the role that person plays.

Titled chapters seem to convey the idea that the PoV is undergoing some transformative questioning of their identity. Thus Barristan goes from Kingsguard to Queensguard, starts to question his own simplicity as a soldier who can unthinkingly follow orders in The Broken Knight, realises that he must make important and difficult decisions rather than just blindly guard kings as he had before in the Kingbreaker, and is transformed into a true decision maker as The Queen's Hand. Theon starts of as Reek, but then becomes the joke Prince in Winterfell, is forced to recognise that his life has turned into a desperation of trying to survive by pleasing others in as a Turncloak and eventually sees the ghost of his former self in A Ghost in Winterfell before he can renew himself to become Theon again.

I haven't gone through every titled chapter to demonstrate that this pattern holds, but this isn't a theory I've looked at too closely, it's just the interpretation I've assumed on reading. If I was to do a thread about it, I'd want to provide a justification for each titled chapter. The basic principle that must hold is that every titled chapter must have something demonstrably in common. Likewise I think you have to show a strong indication of inversion can be found in every titled chapter as a foundation argument for your thesis. OP proposes, but doesn't really show, that this pattern is there. 

There isn't any reason why they cannot be both POV transformation chapters and inversion chapters. I have links to the chapters that I've completed in my signature. I'm only up to The Reaver chapter, so only a quarter of the way through but the eight that I have done are full of parallel inversions. I didn't include them in the OP because I was trying to lay the foundation upon which to build the theory. How can someone new to the idea have any idea where I'm coming from if I simply jumped into one of the chapters without explanation? 

I had suggested a thread about tracing Arya and Sansa's routes, but I think what I'd rather do is a thread for each chapter here on the W to discuss whether my theory proves true.

There is a point to breaking the wheel and sending it in reverse, because it'll return Westeros to the time where the Children think they've gone wrong by reversing the three swords. It'll lead to their own extinction, but like Varys they will do it for the good of the realm.

[Kingmonkey]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

That was a fascinating read!    D&D know what they are doing regarding what in particular?

In short, there's no way in hell a Joyce scholar and a Beckett scholar could read about Riverrun without thinking about the cycles of history. I'd be pretty surprised if they hadn't discussed it enthusiastically with GRRM. Dany's "break the wheel" speech suggests that the TV show is, unsurprisingly given D&D's background, following GRRM's cycles of time theme. 

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

In short, there's no way in hell a Joyce scholar and a Beckett scholar could read about Riverrun without thinking about the cycles of history. I'd be pretty surprised if they hadn't discussed it enthusiastically with GRRM. Dany's "break the wheel" speech suggests that the TV show is, unsurprisingly given D&D's background, following GRRM's cycles of time theme. 

You are confusing me then. I thought you didn't believe the inversions were there, but you believe that the wheel of time is broken or even running in reverse? Which is it?

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

In short, there's no way in hell a Joyce scholar and a Beckett scholar could read about Riverrun without thinking about the cycles of history. I'd be pretty surprised if they hadn't discussed it enthusiastically with GRRM. Dany's "break the wheel" speech suggests that the TV show is, unsurprisingly given D&D's background, following GRRM's cycles of time theme. 

Oh, I see.  I'm not sure how they would convey that to viewers.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I like that interpretation because it fits with the drowned/revenge goddess motify Lady Stoneheart has going on especially now that she is hunting down Freys (one being a fertility god) and Lannisters (predators). I just had a thought is there ever an instance where a woman featured in the wild hunt scenario?

 

The Morrigan

[Pain killer Jane]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The Morrigan

Yes!!!!! I completely forgot about her. The triple goddess crow of fate, magic and war. 

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I just think about the "Prince of Pentos"

The Prince of Pentos is a good clear example of what we're talking about here and whilst the concept seems straightforward enough there are two wrinkles in particular which need to be borne in mind, or rather two ways in which it can all go horribly wrong. Its a cycle and vital that the balance of that cycle be maintained. if the cycle is upset by a King being put into the ground by his successor too early - which I've suggested is a possible explanation of the Nights King story, or conversely by the incumbent refusing to go into the ground when his number is up

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Yes!!!!! I completely forgot about her. The triple goddess crow of fate, magic and war. 

And a favourite topic of conversation in these here parts. 

After all we have a crow goddess with three aspects - a three-eyed crow

And her human aspects; maiden, mother and crone correspond with the three female aspects of the Seven

And then there's House Morrigen from the Stormlands and its crow volant sigil...

[Kingmonkey]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You are confusing me then. I thought you didn't believe the inversions were there, but you believe that the wheel of time is broken or even running in reverse? Which is it?

What makes you think those are the only two options?

I never said I don't believe there are inversions there -- only that they don't follow any consistent pattern. The cycles of history are a literary theme more than they are a plot element. This isn't subject, it's structure. I doubt GRRM is employing any strict method or mechanism.

The Viconian idea of corsi e recorsi and the imagery of the wheel of time suggest that time goes in a circle, rather than in reverse. GRRM's notion appears to follow cataclysmic culminations rather than the more organic shifts of Vico, and I'd say that the song of fire and ice is the saga of a shift from one cycle of history to another. Dany's waking of the dragons  might be the cataclysm of the current age. It may also have caused a kind of fracture in time that sends echoes into the future and the past. 

I doubt any of this will be made explicit though, tbh. 

[Kingmonkey]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh, I see.  I'm not sure how they would convey that to viewers.

I don't expect them to try particularly hard. That's something for critical analysis, not casual viewing. 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

I don't expect them to try particularly hard. That's something for critical analysis, not casual viewing. 

Spoiler

The DVD blue rays shorts had a piece from this past season that talked about Visenya's and Rhaneys' hills always being. It was the piece with Qyburn and a maestro of the citadel arguing. 

 

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

What makes you think those are the only two options?

I never said I don't believe there are inversions there -- only that they don't follow any consistent pattern. The cycles of history are a literary theme more than they are a plot element. This isn't subject, it's structure. I doubt GRRM is employing any strict method or mechanism.

 

   ... entirely