Order of Stark Kings incorrect

[Free Northman Reborn]

So Nittanian asked me to post this longstanding gripe here, so here goes a copy of what I posted in the discussion thread this originally came up in. It relates to why the order of Stark Kings in the Wiki is currently incorrect, and how the Kings should instead be ordered:

The first Bran crypts chapter has the clearest chronology of Stark Kings. In that one, Theon Stark is the intermediate King between Rickard Stark who conquered the Neck and Brandon the Shipwright. We must of course remember that Bran is just picking out random Kings, and is clearly skipping a heck of a lot of them inbetween some named Kings.

If we consider that Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den centuries before the Andal invasion started, and that Theon Stark lived after the Vale had already been ruled by the Andal Arryns for centuries, then it is clear that more than a thousand years seperate Jon Stark and Theon Stark.

At the same time, we know that Theon Stark lived close to 2000 years ago, if he led the Rape of the Three Sisters. Even if he didn't lead the Rape of the Three Sisters, he clearly lived during the height of the Andal invasion, which was millenia ago. So clearly, the 2nd Bran crypts chapter, where he places Theon quite close behind Torhenn Stark's time, is an error on Martin's part. Theon the Hungry Wolf (the original one) lived much earlier than that. Or maybe there were more Theons. Some even named the Hungry Wolf too, for all we know.

Another point that proves the recent placing of Brandon the Shipwright and his son the Burner, is that Manderly says the North hadn't had a fleet since Brandon the Burner burned his father's ships. Well, we know Theon had a fleet. He built it himself, and it was a large one, given that he invaded Andalos, the Three Sisters and the Fingers with it. So Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner had to have lived after him.

In fact, if Theon indeed conducted the Rape of the Three Sisters 2000 years ago, and if the War Across the Water indeed continued for 1000 years after that, then the North must have had a fleet throughout this war. So that puts Brandon the Shipwright and his son more recently than 1000 years ago. Meaning AFTER the Manderly arrival. Which would make sense, given that Manderly's reference to them not having a fleet since Brandon the Burner strongly implied that this burning happened AFTER the Manderlys had settled in the North.

Next, we have Ser Bartimus's history of the Wolfsden which seems to follow a chronological order. And in his chronology, it goes as follows:

Jon Stark builds the Wolf's Den - Jon Stark and his son Rickard can be placed here

The Greystark rebellion happens centuries/millenia later

Various lords hold the Wolfsden for more centuries

Then Reavers from the Sisters capture it (which presumably leads to the Rape of the Three Sisters around 2000 years ago) Theon Stark can be placed here

Then the War Across the Water breaks out (leading nicely from the preceding event above)

Then Edrick Snowbeard grows too feeble to defend his realm and Brandon Ice Eyes his grandson/great grandson hangs Slaver entrails form the Wolfsden Hearttree (Edrick Snowbeard and Brandon Ice Eyes can be placed here)

Then the Manderlys arrive 1000 years ago

And based on the earlier points above, Brandon the Shipwright and his son the Burner can be placed some centuries after the Manderly arrival.

So it seems pretty clear that the order of Kings has to go:

Jon Stark -circa 4000 years ago

Rickard Stark, his son

Theon Stark - circa 2000 years ago

Edric Snowbeard - circa 1500 years ago

Brandon Ice Eyes, his grandson/great grandson, can't quite remember which

The Manderlys arrive 1000 years ago

Brandon the Shipwright - circa 600 years ago

Brandon the Burner, his son

Torhenn Stark - 300 years ago.

The less noteworthy kings inbetween will probably go according to Bran's original chapter. But I can't quite recall their names. Moonkings, Bridegrooms, the Good the Bad and the Ugly etc.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The proposed solution to this issues was:

On 1-12-2016 at 11:27 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

List in chronological order the kings that we do know a rough order for (the ones you list under "ancient kings", "Andal era", "more recent centuries", and Karlon), and the remainder in a list stating that for them their exact order and timing is unknown (though a note could be made stating that they are listed as closely as possible to the list Bran gives in ACOK).

Unless there are any objections, or someone else has other ideas, I suggest the page should be updated sometime this week.

[Nittanian]

On 12/3/2016 at 5:35 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Unless there are any objections, or someone else has other ideas, I suggest the page should be updated sometime this week.

I added more sourcing and explanation for the list. Please expand if you know more!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

12 hours ago, Nittanian said:

I added more sourcing and explanation for the list. Please expand if you know more!

Looks good! I propose adding the same list to the House Stark page to replace the current Kings of Winter/Kings in the North list.

Shouldn't we list the kings by their full names? So "Jon Stark", instead of "Jon", and "Theon Stark, also known as the Hungry Wolf" instead of "Theon the Hungry Wolf"?

[Free Northman Reborn]

17 hours ago, Nittanian said:

I added more sourcing and explanation for the list. Please expand if you know more!

 

4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Looks good! I propose adding the same list to the House Stark page to replace the current Kings of Winter/Kings in the North list.

Shouldn't we list the kings by their full names? So "Jon Stark", instead of "Jon", and "Theon Stark, also known as the Hungry Wolf" instead of "Theon the Hungry Wolf"?

Great work, guys! I just visited the page by coincidence and saw the updated list. Much, much more accurate. And very interesting to read through, as it takes you through the chronology of the North's history, associated with each notable King.

As for the Kings still listed under "unknown", these would be interesting to try and resolve. Some would obviously be close to impossible to place, but a few we have some inkling of information on. One such candidate is Harlon Stark.

We are told from a few sources that the last Bolton uprising was 1000 years ago. Seeing as Harlon Stark is known to have warred against the Boltons centuries ago, and since we don't know of any more recent uprisings than the one of 1000 years ago, it seems likely that he can be placed at that point in history - which more or less corresponds to the time of the Manderly arrival.

Meaning he lived after Brandon Ice Eyes, but before Brandon the Shipwright. The exact date of course does not matter, just that he can be safely placed between these two Kings.

 

 

[Nittanian]

5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Shouldn't we list the kings by their full names? So "Jon Stark", instead of "Jon", and "Theon Stark, also known as the Hungry Wolf" instead of "Theon the Hungry Wolf"?

Since all northern kings so far have been Starks, I think it looks more cluttered and busy to have the Stark surname added with each entry. Since there are Targaryen and Baratheon dynasties who have sat the Iron Throne, it makes sense to include the house name. We could certainly include the full name, but I personally think it looks more concise without it.

Separately, " Iron Throne" has a lot of history and info about monarchs. Might it be better to move most of it to "King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men"? "Iron Throne" could then focus on the actual seat and it being a metonym for the royal authority (like "The Crown").

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

We are told from a few sources that the last Bolton uprising was 1000 years ago. Seeing as Harlon Stark is known to have warred against the Boltons centuries ago, and since we don't know of any more recent uprisings than the one of 1000 years ago, it seems likely that he can be placed at that point in history - which more or less corresponds to the time of the Manderly arrival.

Generally, I'm cautious of using "a thousand years" for timeline purposes, since GRRM sometimes means "a long time", in contrast to the specific "one thousand years". It could indeed be 1,000 years, but we shouldn't necessarily take it as a certainty. That being said ...

Quote

 

"Supposedly all that had stopped a thousand years ago, when the Boltons had bent their knees to Winterfell" (ACOK Theon IV)

"The Karstarks traced their descent to Karlon Stark, a younger son of Winterfell who had put down a rebel lord a thousand years ago, and been granted lands for his valor." (ASOS Catelyn III)

"Centuries ago, House Bolton rose up against the King in the North, and Harlon Stark laid siege to the Dreadfort." (ADWD Jon IV)

 

Based on this, it seems probable (but not definite) that Starks defeated rebel Boltons 1,000 years ago, with younger son Karlon then building what became Karhold. It is unknown if Harlon was involved in this rebellion or a different one. Harlon is presumably a King in the North, but that is not confirmed. Alternatively, Harlon could be a misprint of Karlon, and Harlon/Karlon besieged the Dreadfort on behalf of his older brother, the King in the North. Just spitballing...

I might have asked this before, but do we know that Bran the Builder was a king? The AGOT appendix states, "The Starks trace their descent from Brandon the Builder and the ancient Kings of Winter." Yandel mentions, "Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter."

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Generally, I'm cautious of using "a thousand years" for timeline purposes, since GRRM sometimes means "a long time", in contrast to the specific "one thousand years". It could indeed be 1,000 years, but we shouldn't necessarily take it as a certainty. That being said ...

Based on this, it seems probable (but not definite) that Starks defeated rebel Boltons 1,000 years ago, with younger son Karlon then building what became Karhold. It is unknown if Harlon was involved in this rebellion or a different one. Harlon is presumably a King in the North, but that is not confirmed. Alternatively, Harlon could be a misprint of Karlon, and Harlon/Karlon besieged the Dreadfort on behalf of his older brother, the King in the North. Just spitballing...

I might have asked this before, but do we know that Bran the Builder was a king? The AGOT appendix states, "The Starks trace their descent from Brandon the Builder and the ancient Kings of Winter." Yandel mentions, "Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter."

Well I agree that the "thousand years ago" means "a long, long time ago". I guess it could be 700 years ago, but it could also be 1500 years ago.

However, it seems quite plausible to me that all of the above refers to the same Bolton rebellion. Let's call it one thousand years ago to round it off.

So, we know that the Karstark lands never formed part of even the ancient realm of the Red Kings, even at the height of their power. So since Karlon Stark put down a rebel lord, (and presumably was granted his lands as a reward), it is unlikely to have been a Bolton lord that he put down. Instead, it might have been another vassal lord of the Starks who had allied with the Boltons. Let's call them the Greenwoods for ease of reference (as the Greenwoods are a House listed as having been extinguished by the Starks at some point in the past, and the Karstark lands happen to be heavily forested today).

Also, Roose says his ancestors were many things, but seldom fools. So one suspects that as in the time of the Greystarks, and as today with the Dustins, Freys and Ryswells, they were likely to have allied with other Stark vassals when launching one of their rebellions, to increase their chances of success. In that case, the "Greenwoods" may have been that ally.

Which nicely ties all of the quoted references together. Around a thousand years ago - give or take a few centuries - the Boltons rebelled, together with the former rulers of the Karstark lands (called the Greenwoods in our scenario). The King in the North sent his oldest son - Harlon Stark - to besiege the Dreadfort, while his second son - Karlon Stark - was sent to put down Lord Greenwood.

Karlon Stark defeated Lord Greenwood, while Harlon Stark besieged the Dreadfort for two years before starving them out and forcing them to submit.

For his valour, Karlon - the younger brother - was granted the lands of House Greenwood, and founded house Karstark, while Harlon the older brother eventually became King in the North.

To me a scenario like the above makes more sense than multiple Bolton rebellions taking place in the last thousand years, with the Boltons somehow surviving each time.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

5 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Since all northern kings so far have been Starks, I think it looks more cluttered and busy to have the Stark surname added with each entry. Since there are Targaryen and Baratheon dynasties who have sat the Iron Throne, it makes sense to include the house name. We could certainly include the full name, but I personally think it looks more concise without it.

I personally think that adding their full names, followed by their nicknames, makes the info more complete. So perhaps we need a third vote to break the tie?  

5 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Separately, " Iron Throne" has a lot of history and info about monarchs. Might it be better to move most of it to "King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men"? "Iron Throne" could then focus on the actual seat and it being a metonym for the royal authority (like "The Crown").

Sure.  

[Free Northman Reborn]

12 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I personally think that adding their full names, followed by their nicknames, makes the info more complete. So perhaps we need a third vote to break the tie?  

Sure.  

Well, if I might help break the tie , my preference happens to be for the full names plus nicknames too.

[Free Northman Reborn]

14 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Generally, I'm cautious of using "a thousand years" for timeline purposes, since GRRM sometimes means "a long time", in contrast to the specific "one thousand years". It could indeed be 1,000 years, but we shouldn't necessarily take it as a certainty. That being said ...

Based on this, it seems probable (but not definite) that Starks defeated rebel Boltons 1,000 years ago, with younger son Karlon then building what became Karhold. It is unknown if Harlon was involved in this rebellion or a different one. Harlon is presumably a King in the North, but that is not confirmed. Alternatively, Harlon could be a misprint of Karlon, and Harlon/Karlon besieged the Dreadfort on behalf of his older brother, the King in the North. Just spitballing...

I might have asked this before, but do we know that Bran the Builder was a king? The AGOT appendix states, "The Starks trace their descent from Brandon the Builder and the ancient Kings of Winter." Yandel mentions, "Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter."

 

11 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I personally think that adding their full names, followed by their nicknames, makes the info more complete. So perhaps we need a third vote to break the tie?  

Sure.  

Just a note (maybe you are aware of this and still in the process of correcting it). It seems on the "House Stark" wiki page, the order of historical Stark Kings has not yet been updated, and still reflects the previous, incorrect order. Only if you click to the sub-page "Kings of Winter" is the new correct order reflected.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

Just a note (maybe you are aware of this and still in the process of correcting it). It seems on the "House Stark" wiki page, the order of historical Stark Kings has not yet been updated, and still reflects the previous, incorrect order. Only if you click to the sub-page "Kings of Winter" is the new correct order reflected.

 

I made the edit just now. I changed "recent kings" into "Centuries before the Conquest", as Torrhen, and not Robb, should be the last king in that section for the House Stark page. Feel free to change/suggest a new heading for that section.

 

Edit: regarding the "House Stark" page, shouldn't Brandon and Lyanna be in the "at the end of the third century" section along with Eddard and Benjen? 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 8-12-2016 at 10:15 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Edit: regarding the "House Stark" page, shouldn't Brandon and Lyanna be in the "at the end of the third century" section along with Eddard and Benjen? 

No further opinions about this?

[direpupy]

17 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

No further opinions about this?

I guess it depents on what you consider to be they end of the third century, the last 25 years then yes, the last 10 years then no.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Sorry, didn't see the last question. I don't really have an opinion on it, as they weren't ruling lords. They are kind of just extra info.