Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

[Lyanna Stark]

“Legislators, priests, philosophers, writers, and scientists have striven to show that the subordinate position of woman is willed in heaven and advantageous on earth.”
― Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex

Welcome back to the Feminism thread, resurrected and risen from the ashes of the post-Trump apocalypse. This feels more urgent and important than ever in this post US election, post-Brexit, alt-right world in which we now live. A world in which a lot of women's reproductive rights are under threat, our right to stay safe and unmolested is thrown under the Billy Bush-bus and where voices were, for the first time during my lifetime, raised to roll back our very right to personhood: the right for women to vote. How did it come to this? Or were we actually second rate citizens all along, and just couldn't see it as clearly as we can now?

The aim of this thread is for us to view these issues through a feminist lens and try to understand and get informed about the mechanisms driving this development and the world they have created. This is not the time to sit quietly by while the world changes around us. Perhaps that sounds pretentious, but nobody will do it for us, and we have to start somewhere. Perhaps you'll find you'll become the educator, instigator, agitator you were meant to be, or maybe just reading is enough. If anything, 2016 has taught us that whatever equality we took for granted can be taken away faster than we ever thought possible; it has taught us that now, more than ever, do we need to understand what drives sexism and misogyny and how to fight back.

A huge and marvelous thanks to Butterbumps! who not only provided an amazing amount of subject matter, ideas, material and articles for this thread, but who has also agreed to write/co-host with me and who basically kicked my sorry arse into action. I hope you do not think I stole your thunder, because that thunder belongs to you.

Some Rules and Stuff, for your Safety and Comfort

"The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn."
―  Gloria Steinem

This is a thread to discuss issues pertaining to feminism.
1. First, a note to those who wish to come in here to proclaim loudly and clearly that feminism is not needed, thank you kindly, we've heard that one before and instead of beating a dead horse, you can a. enjoy this article and b. take your very own self somewhere else. This thread is not for you, and yes, that can easily be uncomfortable to hear.

2. Secondly, to those who claim feminism means we hate men/think women are superior, a. pick a dictionary and look up "feminism", and no, you cannot decide to change the meaning of the word based on your "feels". That's not how words work. After that b. see paragraph above.

3. Thirdly, this thread may contain some terminology which can seem somewhat alien. If this is the case, do not hesitate to ask for clarifications. There are lots of posters well versed in the terminology who can help out. Or, try googling it and go for what looks like reputable sources, like for example http://www.understandingprejudice.org/

4. Fourth, no, men are not banned from reading this thread, or responding. However, if this veers into paragraph 1 or 2 territory, then kindly shutteth thy cakehole or speweth thine bile elsewhere.

Unfortunately the older Feminism threads (among them "Yes all men or Chainmail bikini?" and "Feminism - Time of War edition" have been pruned) but the "Feminism - Distractingly Sexy edition" is still there. This means we've lost the old link roundups, but once we start building up a new round, I'll edit the first post and add them to a list, and this time I promise, across my heart, to save stuff/bookmark stuff. Really. I do. Honestly and Sincerely. *ahem*

The Trumpocalypse and the End Times
In the wake of the Orange Menace becoming president elect, more people than ever are asking themselves how we ended up here. How could a racist misogynist win? How could this happen? Is this the end time?

While the situation is certainly shocking, depressing and rage-inducing at the same time, the signs were there and in some cases, the writing was on the wall. Gamergate, the alt-right, MRAs, the rabid puppies, the rise of the right-wing nationalists in Europe, 8chan; these are all factions more or less aligning behind the Trumpocalypse, they weren't just laissez faire Republicans, they actively sought this and promoted this. This development is not only limited to the US either; it is very much alive and well in Europe, Australia and most likely elsewhere, too.
What we have seen is that these organisations trend towards nationalism and traditionalism, but stronger than any other forces are racism and misogyny. The Enemy are the non-whites and the women. The Reign of the White Man needs to be reasserted and everyone else should know their place. Since this is the feminism thread, we'll mostly focus in the misogyny side of these sentiments. This is more relevant than ever, too, since 53% of white women in the US voted for Trump, a known sexual predator and obvious misogynist.

But at least we can enjoy Ivanka Trump's "empowerment" and maybe even buy some of her stuff to feel more empowered, at the same time as being a woman on the internet is more dangerous than ever, where we should feel Sorry for the emasculation of the white working class man, where Science fiction has become Too Progressive and when Gamergaters and Steubenville apologists refuse to go away.*** (This last paragraph contained some irony btw.)

It may seem a hopeless position, but remember, the gains of the past were not freely given. Our foremothers fought tooth and nail for everything we take for granted. Now, it is our turn. It probably won't be easy or without resistance, however.

"If you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything at any time, and you would achieve nothing."
― Margaret Thatcher

 

***Some of these things are in the pipeline to be discussed since they touch very closely on the election of Fuckface McOrange, like for instance the intersection between class and feminism/sexism, the wishy washy sellout of feminism into mindless consumerism ("Ivanka" empowerment).

[Lyanna Stark]

On hostile and benevolent sexism - Why did so many women vote for Trump?

"If woman had no existence save in the fiction written by men, one would imagine her a person
...very various; heroic and mean; splendid and sordid;
infinitely beautiful and hideous in the extreme."
―  Virginia Woolf, A Room of One's Own

One of the most mindboggling statistics coming out of the election of the Smallfingered Agent Orange as the next president of the US of A was that 53% of white women in America voted for this cockwomble. What were they thinking? Had they in fact lost their minds?

No, far from it. Feminists have long been aware of theories and solid explanations for why women often excuse and embrace sexism to an astonishing degree.

Before we get into the nitty gritty of it, let's look at what sexism actually is. I find Julia Serano's explanation pretty useful.
 

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“Sexism occurs when we assume that some people are less valid or natural  than others because of their sex, gender, or sexuality; it occurs when we  project our own expectations and assumptions about sex, gender, and  sexuality onto other people, and police their behaviors accordingly; it  occurs when we reduce another person to their sex, gender, or sexuality  rather than seeing them as a whole, legitimate person. That is sexism.  And a person is a legitimate feminist when they have made a commitment to  challenging sexist double standards wherever and whenever they arise. An  individual's personal style, mannerisms, identity, consensual sexual  partners, and live choices simply shouldn't factor into it.”
― Julia Serano, Excluded: Making Feminist and Queer Movements More Inclusive

Quite often sexism is used in the same context as misogyny.

 

Quote

Misogyny: hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, or prejudice against women.

Does this mean all sexism is the result of misogyny? No, and here is where we also approach the explanation for why women vote for Trump, and excuse a lot of behaviour with "boys will be boys" and "it's only locker room talk".

Hostile and benevolent sexism - men's ambivalence towards women

“Women have served all these centuries as looking glasses possessing the magic and delicious power of reflecting the figure of man at twice its natural size.”
― Virginia Woolf, A Room of One's Own

The theory of hostile and benevolent sexism and how they work together was first published by Glick & Fiske in 1996.
Hostile sexism is generally defined as holding stereotypically negative and hostile (duh) views on women as a group, for instance that women are unfit for leadership positions, are mentally weaker or more stupid than men,  should expect to be sexually assaulted and/or raped when wearing revealing clothing, etc. This is pretty self explanatory.

Benevolent sexism on the other hand is a bit trickier, and is defined by Glick & Fiske as:
"a set of interrelated attitudes towards women that are sexist in terms of viewing women stereotypically and in restricted roles but that are subjectively positive in feeling tone (for the perceiver) and also tend to elicit behaviours typically categorized as prosocial (e.g. helping) or intimacy-seeking (e.g. self-disclosure)."

This could be positives like "women are kinder than men" or "women should be protected and cherished by men". In general, benevolent sexism can on an individual level seem positive, but on an aggregate level they are harmful.

Another great example of benevolent sexism is the myth about the Mother. Mothers are great, they can do anything and are just better than fathers. Or are they? Is this myth really helpful at all? Here's a great takedown of the myth of the Great Mother and why this hinders far more than it helps, not to mention that it is an excellent example of benevolent sexism in action.

Glick & Fiske's article titled "The Ambivalent Sexism Inventory: Differentiating Hostile and Benevolent Sexism laid important groundwork in order to make it clear how these two types of sexism are not as different as they seem, but on the contrary often work side by side, complementary, like two sides of the same coin.

This great and important article by Vox goes into detail on how this ties into the recent Trumpocalypse.
 

Quote

The basic agreement is that as long as women cater to men’s needs, men will protect and cherish women in return. If women have few good options for independent success, this is a pretty good deal — which explains why in more overtly sexist societies where women have fewer opportunities, cross-national studies show that women endorse benevolent sexism at even higher rates than men do.
This may also help explain why Trump maintained high levels of support among white women voters who don’t have a college degree — a group Trump won 62 percent to 34, and a group whose career opportunities are probably more limited. Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton totally reversed 2012’s partisan gender gap among college-educated white women. (A demographic Clinton won by 51 to 45 percent, and Romney won 52 to 46 against Obama.)

So basically, the more dependent women are on men to have a shot at a decent life, the more they are onboard with benevolent sexism, and as they need to take the good with the bad, they bend and excuse the hostile sexism, too. Because what other choice is there? Going outside that norm carries a social penalty, and, perhaps more importantly, an economic once as well, for many. Everyone knows the stigma of the single mother: shoulda kept her knees together, lazy, sponges of society, carrying on her faulty genes to the next generation. We don't want that kind here where we are *upstanding* citizens.  Then there is the spinster, that unwanted dried up frigid prune, perhaps good for becoming a librarian at the best of times. The woman without a man, incomplete, to be pitied and maybe feared. If women aren't willing or able to be the looking glass men can be reflected in at twice their size, they have stepped outside the system of benevolent/hostile sexism, and that is threatening.

Then, there is the confusing effect of how the sexist nature of Trump, and how feeling threatened by that, it could have *increased* women's propensity of voting for Orange Potatoface.

Quote

But the most powerful gendered element of Trump’s campaign may actually lie in his fear-mongering.
“Trump's strategy was to ramp up anxiety about a dark, dangerous world,” Glick said. “When women are under threat, their benevolent sexism scores go up.”
Specifically, he said, showing women survey data about men’s hostile sexism makes women more likely to endorse benevolent sexism out of psychological self-defense. It may be ironic to turn to men for protection from male hostility, but it’s how the cycle works.
This also helps explain why so many women hold sexist biases against women, Glick said. If women themselves enforce gender norms and punish deviants, it reinforces the social order that guarantees them protection. And it separates them from the “bad” women who are deemed unworthy of that protection.

The lastly, we get to sexual assault. Even within the hostile/benevolent sexism cycle, that is on the extreme end. However, if we assume that many women's views on the social order has been reinforced through outside threats, then it leaves us that women, as a group, *will accept worse things than they perhaps would have before*. Contradictory at first glance, but it fits like a glove within the theory.

 

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Sexual assault is the ultimate expression of hostile sexism. But the protection racket of benevolent sexism gives women a lot of incentive to either forgive men for it, or blame women.

So there it is. Women are party in our own subjugation, as it were. It's also clear how threatening it is to this world order when women refuse to be party to the protection racket anymore, when we refuse to be the looking glass. That is when we risk getting pushback, but also where we can make a difference, I think. Reject not only hostile sexism, but benevolent sexism, too. Question stuff like "women are just nicer than men". How so? Is it because our vaginas create magic nicety vapours? Or is it some divine essence we carry around us like a small happy cloud? I reject the notion that I as a woman am ruled by some magical essence of femininity. I likewise reject the notion that being female bodied locks me in biology and creates my destiny. We are creatures capable of rationality and intellectual thought, and women are as capable of men as being thoroughly stupid.

Be aware however, that should you go down this route, there is a cost and as the article postulates: it's easier to ignore these issues than to face them. I tend to find that once seen, they cannot be unseen.

What say you? Truth? Fiction? These women are just stupid? Sexism is overrated? I should get off my sodding soapbox and clean out the cat litter?

 

Some more resources on this:

For those of academic bent, here is a link to Glick & Fiske's original 1996 article.

Understandingprejudice.org has this section on hostile/benevolent sexism.

[Lily Valley]

The benevolent sexism statistics are absolutely true.  I was not surprised by the election results.  It doesn't change my feelings of anger and shame.  Anger and shame were what I felt through the entire election cycle.  People are deaf about misogyny.  Absolutely deaf.  The louder right-leaning men got about "crooked-Hillary" the primmer and more house-proud right leaning women got.  The louder left-leaning men got about "crooked-Hillary" the more make-up Bernie-gals wore to his rallies.

In mixed bag anecdotal news that may or may not be related to the election, I have this to offer:

I had a man arrested for indecent exposure this week.   I have lived in New Orleans for 21 years.  In 21 years I have NEVER been subject to a drive-by aggressive wanker.  Street harassment was a days of the week problem for me before I moved to this city.  New Orleans has it's problems, but generally, this is the city that tells it like it is.  I can't help but wonder if the boldness of this wanker was election-related.  The arresting officer was DELIGHTED that he was able to make an arrest. 

I bring this up because I've been alive long enough to have reported stuff like this before MANY TIMES and been told it's "no big deal".  I am genuinely curious if both the perp's boldness and the officer's chivalry aren't tied to the changing climate of increased misogyny.  In the case of the perp, malignant, the officer, benevolent.

Also, I had to face my own reaction.  I am pressing charges because (initially) I was very concerned it happened so close to my campus.  In addition, I found out it was a student and wanted to protect other students.  There goes my own benevolent sexism, trotting around in the guise of a white faculty horse.  I found out that the perp was a student.  That is going to bring it's own shower of hell as a result.  Campus police have been notified. 

Finally, I realized I was pissed on my OWN behalf, because FUCK that guy.  He scared me on my bicycle.  He aggressively boxed me in with his car after I had pulled aside to let him pass.  That shit is scary.   It's a small, small thing on the scale of abuses but it degrades my quality of life and that of others who are subject to this kind of crap.  In addition, it's FINALS WEEK.  I don't have a fucking hour to be dealing with criminal matters, I have work to do.  The perp wasted a great deal of my time.  Time I didn't need to spend on his fetish.

My Tl;dr out of this is:

Can we ride the wave of benevolent sexism to get some much needed protections?  Is that just?  I think it is harmful, but is it better than nothing?

[Theda Baratheon]

I have honestly never read the definitions for those two types of sexism (against women) as articulate as now. it's really given me food for thought and just perfectly captured why I hate sentiments like "men need to cherish women who are their sisters and mothers"because although women who are mothers and caregivers are valid and should be respected and loved by their families when the narrative only pertains to certain types of women (traditionally feminine) being valued then it gets tricky. 

I'm a 22 year old woman, I like kids, I don't want any. I like men and women in a platonic, romantic and sexual way but im not really interested in a relationship or being tied to one person. sometimes I feel like I'm not given as many narratives or ideas of what my future could look like without children or without a man.

Thanks for starting the thread, will be keeping up with it. 

Sorry I couldn't add anything of value now but I'm about to go bed

Cheers 

[Xray the Enforcer]

9 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

Can we ride the wave of benevolent sexism to get some much needed protections?  Is that just?  I think it is harmful, but is it better than nothing?

No, because one of the most insidious things about benevolent sexism is that only certain women ever merit those protections. If you're poor, or black, or outside the house at 10pm, or you had a drink, as far as the benevolent sexists are concerned you brought your own misery upon yourself and you deserve it. 

But I'm really sorry that you had to go through that. Fuckin' wanker.

[Lily Valley]

10 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

No, because one of the most insidious things about benevolent sexism is that only certain women ever merit those protections. If you're poor, or black, or outside the house at 10pm, or you had a drink, as far as the benevolent sexists are concerned you brought your own misery upon yourself and you deserve it. 

X-Ray, I know you're right, but I have been a Southern Woman for SO LONG.   God, not riding this train is going to be worse than giving up cigarettes.  And I love those things.

 

Edit:  There will be an uptick in my FetLife activity while I sublimate my manipulation into Feminist Approved formats.

Edit II:  How do I know he's a student?  He had the nerve to whine to the officer that he needed to go take a final exam.  This "incident" happened a block from the school on a major traffic route for students.  Fuck this guy.

[Lyanna Stark]

46 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

Can we ride the wave of benevolent sexism to get some much needed protections?  Is that just?  I think it is harmful, but is it better than nothing?

Well, firstly fuck that guy and he deserves whatever shit he got, even if was not 100% for the correct reasons.

Regarding this, this is how I am thinking: I am well aware of how the system is broken, rigged, full of shit etc. I can see the flaws from miles away as can you. However, we also need to just exist within it on a daily basis, and yeah, that means that with our eyes fully open, we need to navigate that maze. As long as we can see it and pick our fights (because God knows we cannot take *all* the fights, all the time) then it feels something like this, if I may quote my recently deceased House God (as an idolater (sic) in yoga pants):

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

We *know* this is shit, but we cannot always deal with it or break the system/chains/cause upheaval all the time. Quite often we simply need to work, or get by, or we didn't sleep more than four hours and just cba to deal with that shit right now. So yeah, if it gets things done, in these types of situations, then I don't see why we cannot. Eyes on the big prize, I think. Also, we are only humans. I trend towards forgiveness.

That said, considering tactics to avoid having to rely on benevolent sexism is something that has worked fairly well for me. Not perfect, but it helps. I've long since got used to the fact that perfection is beyond me. I don't call out everyone at work for spouting benevolent sexism for instance. I do tend to have that type of discussion with my kids tho, and to consider things like what clothes I am buying for them and not just go with what the stereotypical crap the stores are pandering (which means girlchild is wearing lots of blue, green and dark red, while boychild is wearing a snazzy purple overall and rocking black boots with hot pink details). I find a lot of benevolent sexism is stuff that is harder to deal with than hostile, since it's insidious. Sometimes it can also be difficult to "prove" to the person saying that stuff that no, not all women, or not all mothers are X, Y, Z, cos at least my brain isn't that immediately quick and witty. Also when I am drunk  I swear to God my brain runs at like 15% speed. I come up with the answer some 1.5 days later, when it does me absolutely no good, unless I want to write the person a letter "Regarding our discussion of "Not all women" on the evening of the 17th of <month Y> I would like to amend my previous incoherent drunken ramblings with...." and I am unsure of how that would work out in practice. In my head it always sounds so marvelous. *sigh*

 

EDIT: This is not a universal solution or anything, just my approach.

[Theda Baratheon]

8 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

No, because one of the most insidious things about benevolent sexism is that only certain women ever merit those protections. If you're poor, or black, or outside the house at 10pm, or you had a drink, as far as the benevolent sexists are concerned you brought your own misery upon yourself and you deserve it. 

But I'm really sorry that you had to go through that. Fuckin' wanker.

Yep. I feel like I'm firmly outside of those protections and that worries me but I'm also not going to stop being me and I'm order to be me I can't really agree with benevolent sexism and it will always make me uncomfortable 

[Theda Baratheon]

In order to exist and be somewhat happy I have to deal with a fair amount of sexist jokes. is it worth calling them out everytime ?  any vaguely skeezy remark? because as is I analyse the intent behind every one and mostly keep my mouth shut so I can get on with my day but sometimes the intent behind certain words is so malicious I have to speak up and sometimes a sexist joke is coming from an oherwise nice enough person who doesn't really understand what they're continuing. do I tell them off or just leave it? most of the time I just leave it and feel like a failure of a feminist 

[Lily Valley]

1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said:

In order to exist and be somewhat happy I have to deal with a fair amount of sexist jokes. is it worth calling them out everytime ?  any vaguely skeezy remark? because as is I analyse the intent behind every one and mostly keep my mouth shut so I can get on with my day but sometimes the intent behind certain words is so malicious I have to speak up and sometimes a sexist joke is coming from an oherwise nice enough person who doesn't really understand what they're continuing. do I tell them off or just leave it? most of the time I just leave it and feel like a failure of a feminist 

Theda, speak up when you feel comfortable.  It is not the responsibility of every woman all the time to smash the patriarchy.  See Lyanna's earlier post.  We gotta eat.  Sometimes I just can't.  I have a lot of guilt right now for not engaging my Bernine Bro' peers over their stupid shit.  Thing is, sometimes I am TIRED.  Sometimes I just need to get home from work and have dinner because I haven't eaten.  I suffered in silence in a terribly sexist environment for four years because speaking out would have had serious negative impact on my already difficult life.  Is that my fault?  Hell NO.  I spoke up when I could and it didn't cause me more harm.  That's all you can do with your work.  With your mates.  Try small things first.

[Lyanna Stark]

5 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

 do I tell them off or just leave it? most of the time I just leave it and feel like a failure of a feminist 

Ah yeah this one. I've had great success with just deadpanning "I don't understand, why is this funny. Can someone explain what is funny about it?" and if they continue, you can just repeat "Hmm, no I still don't understand what is funny" and try and get them to explain *more*. As of yet, nobody has actually managed to extricate themselves from that. I normally end up getting, when they actually cannot explain it without realising they are being totally sexist gits, something like "well you are very glum today" or "wow, why so serious?" at which point you can just chalk up You 1 - Them 0, and leave in happiness and feel that warm fuzzy feeling of having made a shithead seriously uncomfortable with themselves  

[Xray the Enforcer]

The very first question you should ask yourself is "am I safe confronting this person?" and then deciding on how to proceed based on that answer. It is perfectly acceptable to not confront someone if you feel unsafe. If the person is nice but clueless, maybe it's worth engaging them, asking them why they said a certain thing, and then explaining to them why their words/attitudes are harmful. Letting something slide doesn't make you a bad feminist. Of course, engaging when you can is a goal that I try to live up to. Some days I fail at it; other days I can actually persuade someone to stop saying regressive things.

[Theda Baratheon]

I've been engaging someone in work usingh jokes and smiles back. think it works. I think that's my best defence lmao. Im smiley but I can also tell someone off. I completelyd don't confront strangers though. I currently basically work with ALL men and they're nice lads but my goodness am I just hyperaware of how I AM A WOMAN amongst them and though they don't do anything outright to make me feel this way I do certainly feel other from them. 

I do go "oh my GOD" and just stare at some of them if they say something shitty but I don't feel like I engage them on any intellectual level enough I'm just too tired to genuinely debate or educate a lot of the time

[Lily Valley]

Theda, this brings up a good point.  Does anyone have  "How to engage in this sort of shit without getting fired" link?  I think that might be an additional topic for discussion.  I'll do some homework over the weekend.  I know how I react  successfully in a lot of different types of situations, but I'm not sure I can put it into words.  I also have a lot of "what not to do" advice.  LOL.

[Mya Stone]

I was part of the 47% of white women who haven't lost our fucking minds and decided to vote for this cockgoblin. 

I was incredibly vocal on social media regarding my own sexual assault and why I would NEVER vote for him, ever. I truly can't believe this happened. However, in the same breath, I can ABSOLUTELY believe what happened. I'm just so disgusted. 

I AM trying to contribute to this world's future by raising sons who would NEVER treat women as commodities. I think it's the least I can do. I truly am fearful of how the world will look in 4 years time.

As a bad feminist, I have never sat down with my sons and talked to them about feminism properly (they ARE only almost 9 and 5), but I guess I have led by example, because hearing my children flat out declare that they recognize that Trump is sexist helps. (My almost 9 year old said that, verbatim.)

[Lily Valley]

10 minutes ago, Mya Stone said:

I was part of the 47% of white women who haven't lost our fucking minds and decided to vote for this cockgoblin. 

I was incredibly vocal on social media regarding my own sexual assault and why I would NEVER vote for him, ever. I truly can't believe this happened. However, in the same breath, I can ABSOLUTELY believe what happened. I'm just so disgusted. 

I AM trying to contribute to this world's future by raising sons who would NEVER treat women as commodities. I think it's the least I can do. I truly am fearful of how the world will look in 4 years time.

As a bad feminist, I have never sat down with my sons and talked to them about feminism properly (they ARE only almost 9 and 5), but I guess I have led by example, because hearing my children flat out declare that they recognize that Trump is sexist helps. (My almost 9 year old said that, verbatim.)

Welcome back!  Gabba Gabba HEY!

Talk to them.  I had too few talks with my son when he was younger.  Once reproductive health started to affect him as a young adult, I used the time we spent at the doctor's office to have more talks.  Kids listen.  I had MANY talks about LGBTQ tolerance with my son as a youngster because of our people.  The silence of "that's how it is" and "just lead by example" are crippling us.  Boys and men DO NOT see the same things we do.  It is so important to talk to them about this stuff.

Also, I hope your tiny Leo isn't ripping the walls down.  Give him a big hug.

[Liver and Onions]

Threads like this are always needed. Thanks for putting it together. 

You're right about benevolent vs. hostile sexism. It seems like some people think it has to be one or the other, that there are only two ways for men to treat women. And that we should be grateful for the former, lest we be subjected to the latter. 

[The guy from the Vale]

@Lily Valley Ugh... There's a lot of ugly people out there, and it seems the current political climate makes them crawl out of their little holes.

@Lyanna Stark I get the anger about the last election. But I don't think calling him nything but his name is going to make clear how absurd this situation is: The President-Elect of the USA is Donald Trump, a man I've heard described as having substituted money for character even before this election. The campaign only made that more obvious, and his election is a disgrace, but not naming him, not looking in the face of what is actually staring at us won't help, I fear.

@topic: This might as well be put in the LGBT, or police violence, or... thread, as it's intersectional. But I gotta start somewhere. I read the essay "Gegen Hass" (Against Hate) by German Feminist and LGBT activist Carolin Emcke today, which was awarded with this year's Peace Prize of the German Book Trade. If you do understand German, I recommend picking it up. If you don't, I hope it will soon be translated to English, as it absolutely deserves to. The analysis of the current social and political climate seems spot on, and I think the overall message is too important to let it slide.

[Mya Stone]

20 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

Welcome back!  Gabba Gabba HEY!

Talk to them.  I had too few talks with my son when he was younger.  Once reproductive health started to affect him as a young adult, I used the time we spent at the doctor's office to have more talks.  Kids listen.  I had MANY talks about LGBTQ tolerance with my son as a youngster because of our people.  The silence of "that's how it is" and "just lead by example" are crippling us.  Boys and men DO NOT see the same things we do.  It is so important to talk to them about this stuff.

Also, I hope your tiny Leo isn't ripping the walls down.  Give him a big hug.

Heyyyyyy! 

Thanks! Good to be back.  

My tiny Leo is a kindergartener. Hard to believe! 

I have talked to them about LGBTQ issues, as well as racial issues,  because I hold those issues VERY close to my heart. I definitely have to be more vocal about women's issues, though. I will work on it. ❤️

[Lily Valley]

1 minute ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

@Lily Valley Ugh... There's a lot of ugly people out there, and it seems the current political climate makes them crawl out of their little holes.

@Lyanna Stark I get the anger about the last election. But I don't think calling him nything but his name is going to make clear how absurd this situation is: The President-Elect of the USA is Delirium Tremens, a man I've heard described as having substituted money for character even before this election. The campaign only made that more obvious, and his election is a disgrace, but not naming him, not looking in the face of what is actually staring at us won't help, I fear.

@topic: This might as well be put in the LGBT, or police violence, or... thread, as it's intersectional. But I gotta start somewhere. I read the essay "Gegen Hass" (Against Hate) by German Feminist and LGBT activist Carolin Emcke today, which was awarded with this year's Peace Prize of the German Book Trade. If you do understand German, I recommend picking it up. If you don't, I hope it will soon be translated to English, as it absolutely deserves to. The analysis of the current social and political climate seems spot on, and I think the overall message is too important to let it slide.

Keeping ourselves safe from troll-bots by not mentioning him by name is just a good idea.  We've already had to weather plenty of shitstorms because this site comes up first under GRRM + anything.  He has been labeled a hated "SJW" and the feminism thread is an easy target for those shitheads.   In addition, this thread is very hard for the mods to keep on topic even within our own community.  The choice of "not naming by name" isn't an affectation or a whimsy. 

Please post the essay if you find it in translation.  I don't read German.  I am going through a couple of essays that I found on US intersectionality and will post links here once I digest them.  Thanks for your input.