Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

[Theda Baratheon]

Eta: didn't see xray's post from last page. don't want to derail further.

Wales does exist though I'm there right now.

[Xray the Enforcer]

YOU'RE A WIZARD.

[Ice Queen]

1 hour ago, TerraPrime said:

Third, women and children were not spared the "horror of war." Women actually were victimized in war, where captured women were raped routinely, even up to WW2. Also, Drisden and Tokyo and London firebombing killed thousands of women and children. Thousands of Korean and Chinese women, for instance, was conscripted into sexual slavery for the Imperial Japanese army. When soldiers come to town, pretty women hide. The only time women were spared is when it's their country invading and that the invasion was successful. Even then, they dealt with soldiers returning to civilian life (for historical cultures where this was true).  You're thinking of battlefield and combat violence, and generalizing it to all of the horrors associated with wars. In so doing, you're erasing the horror that women face.

Rape continues even today. Vietnam, Darfur, Somalia, even Iraq and Afghanistan. Look at what ISIS and Boko Haram are doing. And US forces are just as guilty of it as any other nation. 

[Theda Baratheon]

You know I find it very disheartening that within the first few pages of a feminist thread men are already trying to dictate the direction of the conversation and through their hurt feelings trying to simplify the discussion so they can complain even more. 

You know what makes me laugh about the whole man hating stereotype of feminists? I like men a lot I just wish they liked and respected ME more. 

And maybe if there's a narrative that's almost universal then it's likely the truth (even if you don't like it). 

[Ice Queen]

2 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

You know I find it very disheartening that within the first few pages of a feminist thread men are already trying to dictate the direction of the conversation and through their hurt feelings trying to simplify the discussion so they can complain even more. 

You know what makes me laugh about the whole man hating stereotype of feminists? I like men a lot I just wish they liked and respected ME more. 

And maybe if there's a narrative that's almost universal then it's likely the truth (even if you don't like it). 

Spot on, Theda. 

[TerraPrime]

I don't know how generalizable this aversion to male/male emotional intimacy is, across cultures.

Two counter examples:

1. In the U.S., male-male closeness is approved and glorified in specific contexts, like the military and team sports. You give your life up for your "brothers" and it is seen as noble. You confide in your war buddies in ways that you don't confide in others. Same with teammates. The bond of friendship and dedication is approved and lauded. Of course, this closeness is also condition in many cases. In the sports arenas, for instance, homosexuality is a transgression and gay teammates lose the protection of the pact, quite frequently. In the military, the stories I heard and read is that your immediate squad members will have your back, but not so others around you. We also recently saw a story of a marine trainee committing suicide after being hazed for being a Muslim. So there are transgressions that can void that friendship bonds.

 

2. Overseas, male-male friendship and intimacy are not nearly as frowned upon. In Asian countries it's often that you will see bands of teenage boys walking around arms over shoulders or holding hands. Of interest is that in some of these countries at least, women are not treated as equals. It echos the Greek culture where women were devalued and disrespected and so men found emotional solace amongst other men, because why would anyone want to talk to a woman, who were deemed intellectually inferior (am I right on this, Theda?)? The extreme example I think is in some of the middle east countries where male/male homosexual acts happen amongst teenager boys but is seen as "boys being boys," and not a form of adult sexuality. It's almost like a pseudo-prison situation because the sexes were segregated by force. A similar example might be the boarding schools, where certain levels of homosexual fraternization occurs with everyone's acknowledgment, if not approval.

 

So I think any models that want to address the phenomenon need to take these things into account, as well.

 

On a personal note, I find that I don't have problems with friendship with heterosexual men as long as they are not anti-gay. For one, I wouldn't want to be friends with an antigay person. For two, if they have the constant need to say or express "no homo," it does come across as too tiring. Like, I may or may not be attracted to you before, but now I certainly am not with your insecurity. I've also had no problems with striking up friendships with women, even before I came out, and in part I attribute this to socializing with my older sister's friends when I was younger. Frankly, I have explored the question of whether I really need a close male friend. For sure, my best friend is a gay man. But, the way in which he is my best friend doesn't really involve him being a man. Like, if he were to tell me tomorrow that he's actually mtf and will undergo transition, he'd still be my best friend and wouldn't have have subtracted anything from our friendship. I just don't know that the shared experience of being a man is a touchstone for my deep friendship with him.

[Dr. Pepper]

12 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

You know I find it very disheartening that within the first few pages of a feminist thread men are already trying to dictate the direction of the conversation and through their hurt feelings trying to simplify the discussion so they can complain even more. 

You know what makes me laugh about the whole man hating stereotype of feminists? I like men a lot I just wish they liked and respected ME more. 

And maybe if there's a narrative that's almost universal then it's likely the truth (even if you don't like it). 

We'll said, Theda. been reading through this thread wondering if I was in some sort of Twilight zone.

[Lyanna Stark]

31 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Emotional labor is a topic near and dear to my heart. I have nothing constructive to say right now, but I'd love to get others' take on it. Didn't Dracarya post something about the topic? We should get back to talking about that.

Edit: Ah, I see she covered something else. But she posted this article elsewhere and I thought it brought up some interesting points about how women still bear most of the emotional labor regarding the holidays, and the pressure to provide a "perfect" experience for others.

https://www.the-pool.com/life/life-honestly/2016/48/kat-lister-on-the-emotional-burden-of-christmas

Yes, that article hit very close to home for me. Especially that gradual slide into taking up the burden from my mother and my grandmother, whom I never saw sit down during the Christmas holidays. They were constantly on their feet, cooking, organising, fixing things, sorting cards, getting lists of relatives ready, sorting the day when the tree needed to be bough, putting it up, decorating it, wrapping gifts, planning which relatives should be where, what time to eat, who should do that, etc etc ad infinitum. And endless task, never ending, ever lasting. And I feel I am in the exact same place and I cannot even say how I ended up here, except it happened organically over so many years. Partially I think, because I recognises my mother's frustration, and I wanted to help her. Instead of sharing her burdens, I feel I inherited them. Perhaps that is unfair.

 

However, more importantly is how this emotional labour is not only unhealthy for women, but potentially dangerous too. It makes us tired and worn, and men's tendency to dump all this on women is also dangerous.

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
― Margaret Atwood

 

Exhibit one, relinking what @karaddin linked before because it is excellent and frightening, at the same time: Men Dump Their Anger Into Women.

As someone recently separated from a man with some severe issues handling his anger, this hits extremely close to home for me, too. I spent so much time and energy managing his anger, trying to push back telling him it was his issue to deal with, making him even angrier. I tried so hard to make him understand that anger is a secondary feeling, and the reason he is feeling it is that he has unresolved underlying issues, but he never really got to dealing with them (among other things). I can see this happening to many of my friends and above all, to my mother. How many years she has managed my dad's emotional stuntedness through a huge helping of emotional labour, and I have watched her grow more bitter with the years.

So one has to ask oneself what the article states:

Quote

But if that’s true, they [straight men] should be extra double going to yoga classes. Why is the less violent gender the one learning all the emotional self regulation?

Because women are expected to regulate the emotions of men as well as themselves. They have to sharpen their emotional regulation skillz because they’ll be regulating for two even when they’re not pregnant. This has been a thing that’s starting to get noticed in feminist circles; the concept of unpaid emotional labor that women are expected to supply. This takes many forms (and I’ve written about this before) and at its most benign looks like listening, support and empathy. However, as it becomes more noxious, women are expected to read the emotions men and proactively protect them from their own negative emotions.

Again with toxic masculinity and how it harms. Why are women so much more prone to seek help, to self regulate in constructive ways? Why is it so much more shameful for men to admit they need to also realise they are emotional beings, with feelings?

This is also where it ties into the benevolent/harmful sexism mechanisms of one of the first articles. When women are in a more vulnerable situation financially and socially, they are more prone to accept the burdens of both hostile and benevolent sexism, and this means women are also more likely to do the emotional labour needed to make the relationship work, and, as pointed out in the article by Emma Lindsay linked above, to make it more valuable to the man in order to be safer. Again, this ties directly into the same mechanics in a pretty frightening fashion.

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If you need to rely on a male income for your livelihood, you have to make sure your presence improves the lived experience of your husband. Otherwise, he might kick you to the curb and you’d be fucked. Even now, with a continued disparity in earning potential, women will often manage male emotions so that a woman can be assured of material support by providing emotional value to her partner. Often, this goes beyond the conscious recognition of the men who receive it.

Yes. You make sure your presence improves the lived experience of your husband. Are you a nice little wife or a nagging old baggage eh? And you know, even to a die-hard feminist, I can tell you it hurts to be called a nagging old baggage, or to be accused of making a mountain out of a molehill when you point out that you do not want to project manage yet another Christmas, or to be accused of being a cold bitch. The deep seated need to be a good partner is extremely difficult to unseat, as is the reflex internalised action of doing the emotional work, even with heaps of theoretical knowledge to prove the contrary.

Lastly, why men react so poorly to breakups and emotional turmoil in their lives.

Quote

I see this crop up again and again in my male friends; I see men who are only able to quit their substance problems when they get a girlfriend, or men who drift into workaholism every time they are single. So many men I know are unable to live a happy life when they don’t have a woman who stops them from feeling the negative feelings that accompany their poor life decisions. It’s notable that they often do not stop making these poor life decisions.

This is important, because it both points to how within the framework of toxic masculinity, men are far more likely to work through their emotional issues when they can "dump" those into a woman who till take over and do a lot of the labour. But this also has a more sinister and far more dangerous effect, in mine, and many others' opinion. In that men who are rejected or dumped, will take that loss out on women. This article by Samantha Allen discusses Elliot Rodger, the young man who a while ago wrote an Men's Rights Manifesto and then went on a shooting spree and murdered lots people.

Quote

Men like Rodger tend to have very few friends. According to a recent article in the American Sociological Review, white heterosexual men have the fewest friends of any group of people in the United States. And, as Lisa Wade notes in an article for Salon, “men desire the same level and type of intimacy in their friendships as women, but they aren’t getting it.”

Straight white men in the United States are facing an intimacy crisis. There’s a lot we don’t know about Elliot Rodger but we do know that he craved intimacy. His voluminous and horrific manifesto chronicles his yearning for physical contact from his adolescence until his death. Elliot Rodger was a young man who wanted touch and closeness in his life.

But Rodger, like so many straight white men, could only tolerate one particularly narrow form of intimacy: sexual contact with conventionally attractive white women of a certain social status. The possibility of participating in forms of physical intimacy that are not tied to heterosexual intercourse does not occur to so many men in Rodger’s position.

And here we are again, with how men are socialised into finding homosocial relationships between men "gay" and "unmanly", and how emotional growth and emotional labour are viewed as women's issues to sort, within the framework of a romantic heterosexual relationship, which is seen as the only acceptable form of emotional bond for most heterosexual men. Clearly, this is where Margaret Atwood's words again are shown as true, that men are afraid women will laugh at them (or in this case reject them) but women are afraid of men killing them. This is an unacceptable price for women to pay because men are taught not to deal with their emotions and are unable to do the emotional labour needed for a functioning life as an adult person.

This isn't only in the US either, I'd say this is happening all around the Western world, at the very least, with MRAs, PUAs, alt-right, Gamergaters etc. These men feel like underdogs and oppressed by all and sundry, and they alternate between hating/fearing women and needing them for intimacy.

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It’s time for straight white men to quit blaming women for their loneliness and to start finding solace in each other’s company. Women can’t bear the brunt of men’s misogynistic violence while simultaneously providing them with one hundred percent of their physical and emotional needs. We can’t continue to suffer from sexual violence and murder because men can’t figure out how to manage their sadness.

This is the crux of the matter, and why toxic masculinity, in its extension is lethal to women.

Perhaps here, at the end point, we also see why women are quite prone to capitulate and do all that emotional labour anyway: partially because it is easier, but also because it is safer. We tell ourselves it is just for now, and I can't be bothered to take this fight just at this moment, because I have only slept 4 hours, and the kids need food, and I need to pay the bills, and I don't want to be called a "cold hearted bitch", and I need to plan tomorrow's meetings, and and and and.... ad infinitum. So this end point, where we do the emotional labour because it is easier, and because it was how we learnt from our mothers, and because we aren't *that* sort of wife/partner, and because we want to be safe and we want our children to be safe, and we hate when he is angry, we hate it so much, it's frightening and hurtful, why can't it just stop, it isn't an end point, it is the perpetuum mobile, the perpetual motion, never ending.

Then we get up to Christmas, and here we are again, with present wrapping and trying to sort out things with relatives who don't get along and which kids is going to get what and where we're going to be when and and and... From the article @Xray the Enforcer linked above:

Quote

The stereotype that women are simply “better” at these things runs deep. “Women really are trained as people who take care of other people – and men aren’t,” James says. Do we sweep this under the carpet, I wonder? “We assume it,” she replies. “And we only talk about it when it’s not done and, all of a sudden, we see gaps in our relationships.”

....

For Dr do Mar Pereira, this is a form of inequality that gets strengthened over time, not weakened – primarily because we don’t talk about it enough. “We link it to really positive things, such as love and caring for people,” she says, “so it’s very hard to think about it as an issue within inequality of power that we really need to debate.”

Because who wants to feel like we cant love or care for people? So I'd posit that this runs very deep, and it's tangled with a lot of shame to go against the grain and ignore the social pressures put on women. Only by shining a light on this can we *ever* hope to change this, IMO.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Universal narrative anecdote:  I attend/am sent to/find myself in various conferences/panels/conversations discussing the state of professional women in traditionally male-dominated industries.  The anecdata coming out of the conversations, especially in the networking portion, is depressingly similar.  Biggest themes:  (1) we were all promised a different world in the 90s - it never arrived; (2) incredibly competent, stand out women usually make it; it's the next tier that struggles vis a vis their male counterparts; (3) we don't know how to fix it.

Separate anecdote:  my law school recently hosted a set of senior men (read:  big donors) to discuss the issue in the legal industry to get their views.  My partner (who is enlightened - helps that his wife is a partner at another major law firm) attended.  His stories of the patronizing, paternalistic bullsh*t that went on in that meeting answer so many questions for me (and for him, frankly)

 

 

[Theda Baratheon]

The article I linked a few pages back is specifically about men in STEM. 

"Science is a way that shy, nerdy men pull themselves out of the horror of their teenage years. That is true. That is so. But shy, nerdy women have to try to pull themselves out of that same horror into a world that hates, fears and resents them because they are women, and to a certain otherwise very intelligent sub-set of nerdy men, the category "woman" is defined primarily as "person who might or might not deny me sex, love and affection."

[Chaldanya]

8 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

The article I linked a few pages back is specifically about men in STEM. 

"Science is a way that shy, nerdy men pull themselves out of the horror of their teenage years. That is true. That is so. But shy, nerdy women have to try to pull themselves out of that same horror into a world that hates, fears and resents them because they are women, and to a certain otherwise very intelligent sub-set of nerdy men, the category "woman" is defined primarily as "person who might or might not deny me sex, love and affection."

@Theda Baratheon there you go, expecting someone new to the thread to do the reccommended reading.  Silly!

[Theda Baratheon]

10 minutes ago, Chaldanya said:

@Theda Baratheon there you go, expecting someone new to the thread to do the reccommended reading.  Silly!

Aye it's a hard life reading 

[Commodore]

1 hour ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

Ecstatic because they were women or excstatic because you wanted to fuck them?

that's a natural biological instinct, but it can manifest itself in a healthy way (wanting to be helpful, friendly, supportive, etc)

 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

2 hours ago, Commodore said:

I'm in a male dominated industry (engineering/manufacturing).

On the engineering side it's like 9:1 male/female, but I wouldn't attribute that to how the women are treated (at least where I work).

I wonder how the women feel and what you'd hear if you were a fly on the wall in a room with only female engineers in it (my roommate from college is an ee who works at a major tech company that you have heard of in a senior position, and believe me, you don't want to get her started without reserving some time).  I'm in an industry where at the top levels it is on average about 15% women (equity partners in law firms - and at higher equity levels it is again lower).  There are a lot of men that do not see a problem with which to engage (I have one male partner who actually apologized to me - not that he had any reason, but his eyes were opened after his fiancee started complaining about stuff that happened to her as an emergency room physician and then he started noticing similar sh*t happening around here - dumb stuff on some level, but stuff that makes a difference at the end of the day).  And institutions hide from themselves.  Getting the "devastating data" on promotions, hiring decisions, reviews, etc. is extremely difficult.  And, btw, it doesn't mean that the institution is making bad decisions when making ultimate high level promotion decisions.  However, a lot of times the data are showing that women aren't given enough support or the right sorts of support at lower levels.  It's interesting - when I was 25 I wholeheartedly rejected the label of feminist, but I didn't know what it meant - I only had experience with the college earnest bs version that was earnest, whiny and annoying all at once.  As I've gotten older, I've radicalized because of the stuff I've seen/lived though/risen above.  

[Lily Valley]

1 hour ago, Commodore said:

that's a natural biological instinct, but it can manifest itself in a healthy way (wanting to be helpful, friendly, supportive, etc)

 

I dunno, I came through STEM and found men's "helpfulness" to be patronizing.  It was very difficult to get a group together that would WORK with me rather than give me a 101 lecture on what the task was.   When I found peers I could actually work with, I cherished them.  

Lyanna and X-Ray,

That story on Christmas made me want to rip my hair out.  I've had to do ALL the emotional work with my son and his father ever since my son was born.  It's gross.  The holidays do not happen if I go on strike.  The men in my life DO NOT clean up their messes and get the emotional / mental health they need unless I force them to do it, make the appointments and take them there.   It's infuriating.  

This, from the article on Anger Dumps, 

Quote

I remember one of my male friends was a complete wreck during his divorce. He relied on me so much emotionally after he lost the support of his wife (wanting to talk with me, wanting to cuddle with me, etc.) that I completely started to break down. I had to set some hard limits (like, not seeing him for a week) that didn’t go over very well. 

I can't tell you how many times I have had to unload a male friend who expected me to step in and replace his ex.  It's TERRIBLE.  This is a great article.  Thank you.  Pointing out that this shit is exhausting is a good place to start.  It validates (for me) that what I have called immaturity or neediness is actually just a complete lack of awareness.  Good stuff.  

I laughed my arse off on the embedded article "Where's my cut?"  Was that one linked? It's here.

Thanks for keeping this on track.  It was getting pretty tiresome.

I'm alternately trying to keep up here and frantically failing students.  Y'all were busy yesterday!

[Ice Queen]

3 hours ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

I'm a STEM graduate myself. I know how this shit goes. 

Yep, not surprised. Not only do you get talked down to and patronized, but you have to babysit them. My lab partner in one of my biochem classes almost (literally) killed himself when I wasn't there to say, "Don't do that!"

I really don't think that things have changed all that much in 25 years.

My daughter always had an affinity for math. In elementary school she would lose points on homework and tests because she never showed her work. She didn't understand why she needed to when she could do it in her head.

In 6th grade her math grades started to drop. She informed me that girls aren't supposed to be good at math. That broke my heart--where did she get that from? It took until her senior year in high school for her to admit that not only was she good at it, but she actually liked it. She'd better; she's taking both stats and calc next semester. LOL Her advisor wants her to be a math tutor.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Ladies, I don't really post on this thread but I check it out from time to time. The stuff posted here and the stuff my facebook friends from the board post there have really put me on to gender equality and feminism in general and I really appreciate it. Thank you all.

[litechick]

I haven't read the entire thread but I have to contribute this:  http://www.cracked.com/blog/a-letter-to-my-wife-day-after-election/

I have read it like, 6 times since the election and it is so comforting in a time when I feel super paranoid that people around me voted for the wrong person.

[Lyanna Stark]

7 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

-snipped-

It's interesting - when I was 25 I wholeheartedly rejected the label of feminist, but I didn't know what it meant - I only had experience with the college earnest bs version that was earnest, whiny and annoying all at once.  As I've gotten older, I've radicalized because of the stuff I've seen/lived though/risen above.  

This is also very close to my own experience. My field is IT/IT-related and most of my co-workers and bosses throughout my life have been men. Likewise, I have become far more radicalised with time and experience. Life is indeed a great teacher, even if it can be a bitter brew to swallow sometimes.

I'd hazard that people who work in fairly male dominated fields and claim to never have run into any sort of sexist behaviour, hiring decisions/promotions etc just aren't looking very hard. My current origination is the most equal and laid back I have worked in (also more equal gender distribution) and even here it occurs every now and then. The fly-on-the-wall question is excellent. Naturally women are reluctant to speak about this in mixed settings, especially if it may have a negative impact on our networking, or current job, but when there is no risk, it's a different thing. Everyone has a story.

 

47 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

Ladies, I don't really post on this thread but I check it out from time to time. The stuff posted here and the stuff my facebook friends from the board post there have really put me on to gender equality and feminism in general and I really appreciate it. Thank you all.

Thank you for reading. Every little bit helps. Everyone can make a difference.

13 minutes ago, litechick said:

I haven't read the entire thread but I have to contribute this:  http://www.cracked.com/blog/a-letter-to-my-wife-day-after-election/

I have read it like, 6 times since the election and it is so comforting in a time when I feel super paranoid that people around me voted for the wrong person.

God, that is a very emotionally moving piece.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I'm sure many people here hate Hoff Sommers, but if there is a discussion about women in STEM then I think this video is relevant.