Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

[Mlle. Zabzie]

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

I would say (without claiming any great evidence) that women's career mentoring groups are probably more effective for achieving feminist goals than feminist groups themselves. I mean you could consider that a feminist group, right?

To be clear, that was just the example I found, this is something I've read about a few times, there was an article in The Times saying the real heroes, in terms of actual political effect, of women's suffrage were the moderates who campaigned legally, but have been largely forgotten. I don't know much about women's suffrage outside the UK so I can't really comment, unfortunately. I don't think you need radical action in the present day UK or USA on these issues, but that's purely subjective, dependent on how much real access to real power you think women and feminists have. Obviously, I think they have more than other people here.

 

Actually, I think career mentoring groups and feminist groups are quite different.  The mentoring groups I am part of are more about navigating the existing system, and maybe advocating for (very) incremental change in existing corporate organizations, not about enacting broader more generally applicable change.  There isn't really discussion of "feminist issues" per se, though occasionally things come up.  That is, the groups aren't anti-feminist, but achieving a full set of feminist goals is not their purpose.  They are narrowly focused on what I will describe as largely upper class/upper middle class white collar concerns - how to be successful within corporate institutions of one sort or another (e.g., women in the boardroom, women executives, women equity partners, whatever).  Though the ven diagram overlaps, my own view of more "feminist" organizations is that they are advocating for more broadly applicable change and goals.  They are or should be focused not on the white collar executive class, but entirely or also the larger group of women who are not even in those conversations.  

The older I get the more I think that radical action is necessary at some point as a catalyst for incremental change.  The catalyst pushes things along, then there is a reaction, then there is incremental change up to the next breaking point.  And the cycle rinses and repeats.  I feel in some ways I was promised a lot of things as a young woman through "incremental change".  I shouldn't be bitter, because by all rights, I have succeeded.  But I didn't succeed in a different world order (that was the promise) but the same one disguised by a new language.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I could see where career mentoring and feminism overlap. So many girls and women are not taught a of things they need to know for career advancement, how to handle certain types or criticisms, or worse, how to handle positive feedback. I was thinking about posting how awkward very positive work reviews are and was surprised to see another woman make the exact same comment.  (the only compliments I got as a kid came from m dad's creepy friends  )

[butterbumps!]

On 12/15/2016 at 10:01 AM, Maithanet said:

So someone upthread recommended We Were Feminists Once.  I got it from the library and am just starting it, but it's general message about the commodification of feminism is very interesting.  The general takeaway I'm getting is that we should all be wary of superficial feminism that claims to be helping women/equality but are actually just selling something.  The continuing trend of "gendered" products that are "specifically meant for women".  Women do not need special pens or kleenex or beer, and it only serves to reinforce the difference between men and women in society. 

oh that was me!   I'm about 2/3 of the way through, so I can't speak to the final takeaways yet, but that's what I took away from the early pages of the book.   

I think in addition to what you've observed, what makes this commodification of feminism most concerning to me is that it just packages up the most palatable parts of the activist movement, stripping away all of the "uncomfortable" (read: less marketable) parts, essentially defanging it, rendering it no longer activism.  A brand's bottom-line is profit, which is rather at odds with making vast portions of its potential consumer base uncomfortable, nor can a tidy little brand properly encapsulate the layers of the movement: 

Quote

 

One common response to the mainstreaming of consumer feminism is the question: Well, isn’t this a good thing? Shouldn’t we be psyched about a mass centering of anything that embraces the concept? “If feminism has to become a brand to make change, I’m all for it,” asserted Lena Dunham in a November 2014 interview with the UK’s Guardian. But again, the purpose of a brand is, like neoliberal feminism, deeply at odds with the necessary evolution of movements to address issues that are about more than what trickles down from the highest echelons. The diversity of voices, issues, approaches, and processes required to make feminism work as an inclusive social movement is precisely the kind of knotty, unruly insurrection that just can’t be smoothed into a neat brand.

Zeisler, Andi (2016-05-03). We Were Feminists Once: From Riot Grrrl to CoverGirl®, the Buying and Selling of a Political Movement (pp. 76-77). 

 

I haven't figured out whether this commodification is having a harmful net effect overall; I'm leaning toward thinking it tends to.   I almost wonder sometimes if it, along with the many "exceptional women" who are either at the helm of this, or hawk for it (such as celebrities coming out as "feminists," yet very clearly having no f-ing idea what it even means), are effectively unintentional (or maybe even intentionally in some cases) Trojan Horses that undermine the meat of the movement, kneecapping it.  I think that seeing all these ostensibly "women-positive" messaging, exceptionalism and branding probably contributes to the perception that society has moved beyond sexism.

[Isalie]

So, this thread doesn't make the front page today even. Luckily, Trump has tremendous respect for women which I'm sure will be mentioned in the US politics thread. 

One thing that has bothered me for months, or years maybe, is the way women in the public eye are abused. It's like every single woman that is public in any regard will automatically receive death/rape threats, dick pics and so on. How hard can it really be to start prosecuting threats and make them serve time in prison and slap a hefty fine on every unsolicited dick pic? Obviously men are threatened too, so it doesn't even have to be made about women, but why isn't this issue already solved?

[Robin Of House Hill]

Sorry, but I stopped reading at " Luckily, Trump has tremendous respect for women."

 

[Isalie]

7 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

Sorry, but I stopped reading at " Luckily, Trump has tremendous respect for women."

 

That was a sarcastic allusion to the general state in Gen chat where the US politics thread has sucked all the air out of the room. Anyway, noone else seems to be reading either so...

[Robin Of House Hill]

10 hours ago, Mikael said:

That was a sarcastic allusion to the general state in Gen chat where the US politics thread has sucked all the air out of the room. Anyway, noone else seems to be reading either so...

We live in an age when the lines between sarcasm, satire and reality have become blurred. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

3 hours ago, Robin Of House Hill said:

We live in an age when the lines between sarcasm, satire and reality have become blurred. 

We are, in fact, post humour.

[Theda Baratheon]

Seems a fitting time to ressurect this thread after the Toronto attack and lots of people having never heard of the term “Incel”

I’m seeing a lot of articles like this https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.thedailybeast.com/sympathy-for-the-incel and they seem really reasonable and well written and rational but I was in Facebook groups for years that would post screenshot after screenshot after screenshot of the incel reddit and other incel forum boards and there was SO MUCH SCARY TOXIC CRAP it couldn’t have been a small bonkers fringe movement because there was SO MUCH and a lot of it was TRULY disgusting handmaids tale esque nightmarish shit bordering on paedophilia (wanting young virgin child brides to manipulate) and I read these articles from people who might have only been exposed to this stuff a few weeks or a couple months ago and I think...you’ve not seen all of this shit. It’s SCARY and I really hope that van attacks don’t become more prevalent because almost anyone can rent a car...

anyway not much constructive to say here but wanted to try and kickstart a discussion on this. How DO we tackle incels? Because people have tried to be nurturing and kind in the past and they’ve still been called ‘normies’ and had it spat back into their face...

[JGP]

That's a tough one, Theda. I've given it a fair amount of thought lately, and I just don't know how society wins.

This shit, imo, starts on the level of the individual: rejected, disenfranchised, lonely [whatever] MALE seeks solace, companionship [whatever] but, instead of self checking whatever behaviors/standards are perpetuating their miserable experience so they can improve the latter, they instead find a group of like minded guys and work themselves up into a supersymmetrical hate machine. 

I mean, there are many, many reasons why these individuals get rejected and some of those might have nothing to do with what kind of quality they are. The result though is how they choose to cope and/or deal with it, and this last bit seems to entirely by filtered by the fact that they are MALE. 

Like, how do we stop that? As opposed to support groups that validate their bullshit, I have a hard time imagining [most] men looking for support groups are actually seeking groups that will help them be better men. 

[Theda Baratheon]

19 minutes ago, Triskele said:

I only just leared about that term "Incel" and then saw this article which was thought-provoking.  

Yeah that’s the one I just linked and the one I have an issue with actually because it was SO obviously written by someone who also has only just heard the term. I’ve known about incels for YEARS. The community is so BLEAK. And nasty and horrible and I just don’t know if I can buy incels being nice and supportive to each other EVER when all I’ve ever seen has been hideous. This “why don’t we just be nice to them “ annoys me a bit because it’s like...do you not think we’ve tried that before lol? Many times. Nothing gets through to these peopl when they’re trapped in this toxic hate filled community making each other more miserable. 

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, JEORDHl said:

That's a tough one, Theda. I've given it a fair amount of thought lately, and I just don't know how society wins.

This shit, imo, starts on the level of the individual: rejected, disenfranchised, lonely [whatever] MALE seeks solace, companionship [whatever] but, instead of self checking whatever behaviors/standards are perpetuating their miserable experience so they can improve the latter, they instead find a group of like minded guys and work themselves up into a supersymmetrical hate machine. 

I mean, there are many, many reasons why these individuals get rejected and some of those might have nothing to do with what kind of quality they are. The result though is how they choose to cope and/or deal with it, and this last bit seems to entirely by filtered by the fact that they are MALE. 

Like, how do we stop that? As opposed to support groups that validate their bullshit, I have a hard time imagining [most] men looking for support groups are actually seeking groups that will help them be better men. 

I can feel sympathy for dudes who feel lonely and ugly and socially awkward and want to find a place but I also just can’t ever extend that sympathy when they start blaming women. Absolutely NO self awareness but th fact that women are expected to use our bodies to placate these toxic losers fills me with such disgust. Disgust that female bodies are seen as a solution by incels sets me on edge. I’ve seen so much genuinely post apocalyptic scenarios from incels believing that every father should be able to have a Craster set up with daughter wives...disgusting 

[Theda Baratheon]

But I also worry that this added general knowledge of incels is going to make them feel Moreno persecuted and bullied and more of them will turn to violence  

but im also glad that people are finally realising this genuinely toxic violent misogyny DOES exist and it IS targeted at women and ther IS a whole community breeding it...

[mankytoes]

2 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Seems a fitting time to ressurect this thread after the Toronto attack and lots of people having never heard of the term “Incel”

I’m seeing a lot of articles like this https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.thedailybeast.com/sympathy-for-the-incel and they seem really reasonable and well written and rational but I was in Facebook groups for years that would post screenshot after screenshot after screenshot of the incel reddit and other incel forum boards and there was SO MUCH SCARY TOXIC CRAP it couldn’t have been a small bonkers fringe movement because there was SO MUCH and a lot of it was TRULY disgusting handmaids tale esque nightmarish shit bordering on paedophilia (wanting young virgin child brides to manipulate) and I read these articles from people who might have only been exposed to this stuff a few weeks or a couple months ago and I think...you’ve not seen all of this shit. It’s SCARY and I really hope that van attacks don’t become more prevalent because almost anyone can rent a car...

anyway not much constructive to say here but wanted to try and kickstart a discussion on this. How DO we tackle incels? Because people have tried to be nurturing and kind in the past and they’ve still been called ‘normies’ and had it spat back into their face...

I used to read puahate sometimes for a while, for a laugh. It just seemed so bizarre, I was never sure if anyone was really serious or if it was just trolls trolling trolls. They'd put up pictures of themselves and everyone would score them like 2/10, saying their inferior facial structure meant they were doomed with women. They hated PUA because it sells the idea you can convince a woman to have sex with you, when in reality women just want to shag a load of very attractive men and then marry a rich one. They hated women for this, but then they also hated men for being so pathetic about women, and they hated themselves, it was a very nihilistic impression. The most irritating aspect was the complete refusal to take any responsibility for their own situation. 

It was really shocking when I found out one of those guys was Elliot Rogers, the other one who went on a killing spree.  

What can we do? Don't ever try and humiliate people, even those who deserve it. Beyond that, I think about Mark Twain's quote about how travel is fatal to prejudice. You need to get out and meet people. Of course, incels aren't doing that. 

I think you need a bit more psychology knowledge than I have to really answer that. Because this capacity for hate is in human nature, hating the tribe next door. 

27 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

but im also glad that people are finally realising this genuinely toxic violent misogyny DOES exist and it IS targeted at women and ther IS a whole community breeding it...

I feel like people already had that impression, but felt like it was guys who play football and that. I think people are understanding the difference between banter which can descend into dickheadishness but is ultimately harmless, and this really fucked up world view that a load of these weirdos have.

A lot of serial killers and that have been sexually disfunctional, I guess the difference is now they have a community of sorts, or at least a place to talk. It's hard to say if being weird stops them having normal sexual relationships, or if failing to have normal sexual relationships makes them weird. 

I think most people, male or female, who are completely unsuccessful with regards to sex and relationships do find it quite upsetting. These people are just the minority who let that descend into rage and hatred.

[Theda Baratheon]

10 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I used to read puahate sometimes for a while, for a laugh. It just seemed so bizarre, I was never sure if anyone was really serious or if it was just trolls trolling trolls. They'd put up pictures of themselves and everyone would score them like 2/10, saying their inferior facial structure meant they were doomed with women. They hated PUA because it sells the idea you can convince a woman to have sex with you, when in reality women just want to shag a load of very attractive men and then marry a rich one. They hated women for this, but then they also hated men for being so pathetic about women, and they hated themselves, it was a very nihilistic impression. The most irritating aspect was the complete refusal to take any responsibility for their own situation. 

It was really shocking when I found out one of those guys was Elliot Rogers, the other one who went on a killing spree.  

What can we do? Don't ever try and humiliate people, even those who deserve it. Beyond that, I think about Mark Twain's quote about how travel is fatal to prejudice. You need to get out and meet people. Of course, incels aren't doing that. 

I think you need a bit more psychology knowledge than I have to really answer that. Because this capacity for hate is in human nature, hating the tribe next door. 

I feel like people already had that impression, but felt like it was guys who play football and that. I think people are understanding the difference between banter which can descend into dickheadishness but is ultimately harmless, and this really fucked up world view that a load of these weirdos have.

A lot of serial killers and that have been sexually disfunctional, I guess the difference is now they have a community of sorts, or at least a place to talk. It's hard to say if being weird stops them having normal sexual relationships, or if failing to have normal sexual relationships makes them weird. 

I think most people, male or female, who are completely unsuccessful with regards to sex and relationships do find it quite upsetting. These people are just the minority who let that descend into rage and hatred.

Extremely nihilistic - the only 'hope' they give themselves is the PUA approach of being told to lose a ton of weight by hitting the gym, getting fit and then as some weird over arching revenge on womenfolk try to emotionally manipulate as many as possible. 

I don' know how to change either - I never bully and ridicule people in person (cant be helped online sometimes...) the ridiculed bit...not bullying.

I just cant really feel sympathy for them because I'm a woman who hasn't had sex in many years...and like...there's feeling a bit down on yourself and lonely occasionally and then there' whatever the fuck they are. 

I wish I still had some of there's hehe screenshots people would post of their discussion threads just to prove theresheyhehehe  got that bad because they were honestly so terrifying (which is why I deleted them) 

[karaddin]

 

11 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I can feel sympathy for dudes who feel lonely and ugly and socially awkward and want to find a place but I also just can’t ever extend that sympathy when they start blaming women. Absolutely NO self awareness but th fact that women are expected to use our bodies to placate these toxic losers fills me with such disgust. Disgust that female bodies are seen as a solution by incels sets me on edge. I’ve seen so much genuinely post apocalyptic scenarios from incels believing that every father should be able to have a Craster set up with daughter wives...disgusting 

I'd seen that piece as well, and I agree with your take on it pretty much. I can agree with trying to have more sympathy for people who are struggling, but that's not what the incel community is contrary to what that article is trying to claim for the majority. I've been on the edge of self annihilation due to intense self loathing, these men have hit that point and externalised their problem. They have decided that the solution to them being unattractive is the literal enslavement of half the human species to the other half. They do not see women as people, they do not acknowledge that women have any right to any say in their own lives or their bodies.

We need to have sympathy for, and save these people before they become incels, because once embraced that world view its very hard to see them coming back from it. Its still not even an honest advocacy for that heinous position, because they've dehumanised women so much they don't even see that its a radical idea - they think its the rightful return to a neutral status quo that feminism has destroyed.

I didn't quite finish the piece, I got cranky when it repeated this quote without any criticism or correcting of it -

Quote

You could frame it as #ToxicMasculinity: the notion that all males are to blame for the actions of a minority of damaged individuals. This is identity politics at its most destructive.

The whole point of toxic masculinity is that individual men are not to blame, that its a societal construct that is damaging to men as well as women. But no, just regurgitate these points without contesting them so that people think its the accepted truth. It also talks about Jordan Peterson like he's some benevolent academic that just wants to reach out to these poor troubled men when he's shot to prominence on the back of transphobia. He hit the news by refusing to follow his employers instruction to use transgender students preferred name and pronoun and he's become a darling of the alt right for that reason.

That piece is so insidious because it positions itself as a moral beacon, reaching across the aisle to embrace these people while hiding most of the truth.

11 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I think most people, male or female, who are completely unsuccessful with regards to sex and relationships do find it quite upsetting. These people are just the minority who let that descend into rage and hatred.

The real scary thing is that by default it is indeed only a small number of people that fall into this, however they actively recruit others and indoctrinate them into this world view and that is the true threat and why it needs to be addressed by saving people from becoming this. Those who are vulnerable are in the pit of utter self loathing and the various hate mongers (its not just incels, its white supremacists, its nazis) are taking these people and convincing them that x group is the cause of their misery and that they just need to hate and dominate.

[Seli]

52 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

...

I wish I still had some of there's hehe screenshots people would post of their discussion threads just to prove theresheyhehehe  got that bad because they were honestly so terrifying (which is why I deleted them) 

The prime source that chronicles the misogynist communities on the internet I am aware of is  We Hunted The Mammoth, which has some of the reactions to the Toronto attack. Enter with care, since they are terrifying.

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/04/24/incels-hail-toronto-van-driver-who-killed-10-as-a-new-elliot-rodger-talk-of-future-acid-attacks-and-mass-rapes/

 

[Theda Baratheon]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

 

I'd seen that piece as well, and I agree with your take on it pretty much. I can agree with trying to have more sympathy for people who are struggling, but that's not what the incel community is contrary to what that article is trying to claim for the majority. I've been on the edge of self annihilation due to intense self loathing, these men have hit that point and externalised their problem. They have decided that the solution to them being unattractive is the literal enslavement of half the human species to the other half. They do not see women as people, they do not acknowledge that women have any right to any say in their own lives or their bodies.

We need to have sympathy for, and save these people before they become incels, because once embraced that world view its very hard to see them coming back from it. Its still not even an honest advocacy for that heinous position, because they've dehumanised women so much they don't even see that its a radical idea - they think its the rightful return to a neutral status quo that feminism has destroyed.

I didn't quite finish the piece, I got cranky when it repeated this quote without any criticism or correcting of it -

The whole point of toxic masculinity is that individual men are not to blame, that its a societal construct that is damaging to men as well as women. But no, just regurgitate these points without contesting them so that people think its the accepted truth. It also talks about Jordan Peterson like he's some benevolent academic that just wants to reach out to these poor troubled men when he's shot to prominence on the back of transphobia. He hit the news by refusing to follow his employers instruction to use transgender students preferred name and pronoun and he's become a darling of the alt right for that reason.

That piece is so insidious because it positions itself as a moral beacon, reaching across the aisle to embrace these people while hiding most of the truth.

The real scary thing is that by default it is indeed only a small number of people that fall into this, however they actively recruit others and indoctrinate them into this world view and that is the true threat and why it needs to be addressed by saving people from becoming this. Those who are vulnerable are in the pit of utter self loathing and the various hate mongers (its not just incels, its white supremacists, its nazis) are taking these people and convincing them that x group is the cause of their misery and that they just need to hate and dominate.

I’m glad you’re of the same mind as me regarding that article! I don’t want to seem overly critical; but to me it seemed to be coming from someone who really doesn’t have a lot of background knowledge at all- there is years of context with this stuff.  These communities have been swirling around a big cauldron of poison amongst themselves for years with a few violent attack’s brimming to the surface because of it. They aren’t just sad downtrodden nerds - they’re hateful nihilistic people with this toxic nasty mindset as their SUPPORT GROUP - and they have YEARS of thinking this way. Catching peopl BEFORE their incels is a good shout it’s just figuring out how to do that because incels themselves...if we are talking about people in their say mid 20s who has been part of this vitriolic community for 5 or so years...how the hell can you help them? CAN you? Are they too far down the rabbit hole? 

2 hours ago, Seli said:

The prime source that chronicles the misogynist communities on the internet I am aware of is  We Hunted The Mammoth, which has some of the reactions to the Toronto attack. Enter with care, since they are terrifying.

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/04/24/incels-hail-toronto-van-driver-who-killed-10-as-a-new-elliot-rodger-talk-of-future-acid-attacks-and-mass-rapes/

 

I had to leave a lot of Facebook groups that chronicled this stuff because it was just too much for me 

[Seli]

56 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

...

I had to leave a lot of Facebook groups that chronicled this stuff because it was just too much for me 

I can imagine, I can only take it in small doses and I am hardly the target of these people.

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 hours ago, Seli said:

The prime source that chronicles the misogynist communities on the internet I am aware of is  We Hunted The Mammoth, which has some of the reactions to the Toronto attack. Enter with care, since they are terrifying.

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/04/24/incels-hail-toronto-van-driver-who-killed-10-as-a-new-elliot-rodger-talk-of-future-acid-attacks-and-mass-rapes/

 

That is beyond sickening.  If they were talking about doing the same stuff motivated by Islam they'd probably be in custody.