HBO's Westworld V - These violent delights... [Spoilers]

[Theda Baratheon]

That's just what I'm choosing to believe happened and it makes just as much sense as your reading 

[dbunting]

14 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

What are you going on about logic for as if I'm being totally illogical??

It's TV. It was a poignant choice to make her, a previously controlled robot, gain true consciousness. 

Lol...like...poignant moments happen a lot in TV you know 

You are assuming she gained consciousness, I am assuming that she was programmed to get off that train, that's all.

Either way it is still poignant, if she did choose, then it signals her breaking free, if she didn't choose, it shows she never had and likely never will have a choice.

And you do know I am not arguing with you right? Just expressing a different take on the same scene

[DaveSumm]

I don't really like the idea that Maeve achieved consciousness because it detracts from Dolores's whole progression, it feels like Dolores is  supposed to be the first host to truly awaken. Maybe it's a subcategory of improvisation, she's still gonna leave, she's just gonna get her daughter first?

[Jaxom 1974]

50 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Ford enabled all the host's to wakeup from sleep mode. they were all from that same room...Sizemore sees it is completely empty -all of those hosts joined the ghost nationed

No. I know. But I meant that of the ones in sleep mode that wake up from the storeroom that Sizemore finds empty...Clementine wasn't in that room...Unless you're suggesting she gets the same wake up call...

[Ded As Ned]

4 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

No. I know. But I meant that of the ones in sleep mode that wake up from the storeroom that Sizemore finds empty...Clementine wasn't in that room...Unless you're suggesting she gets the same wake up call...

The room Clementine and Bernard were in is attached to the back of the cold storage room.  Separated by glass doors but that's it.  

[dbunting]

21 minutes ago, Ded As Ned said:

The room Clementine and Bernard were in is attached to the back of the cold storage room.  Separated by glass doors but that's it.  

Yep, when you get to the back of the cold storage room there is another room. She was in there.

[Theda Baratheon]

31 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

No. I know. But I meant that of the ones in sleep mode that wake up from the storeroom that Sizemore finds empty...Clementine wasn't in that room...Unless you're suggesting she gets the same wake up call...

As others have said she was in that room, it was connected to the big storage room.

58 minutes ago, dbunting said:

You are assuming she gained consciousness, I am assuming that she was programmed to get off that train, that's all.

Either way it is still poignant, if she did choose, then it signals her breaking free, if she didn't choose, it shows she never had and likely never will have a choice.

And you do know I am not arguing with you right? Just expressing a different take on the same scene

I know you're not arguing with me, just seemed weird you were repeatedly bringing logic up as if my little theory was totally illogical. 

33 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I don't really like the idea that Maeve achieved consciousness because it detracts from Dolores's whole progression, it feels like Dolores is  supposed to be the first host to truly awaken. Maybe it's a subcategory of improvisation, she's still gonna leave, she's just gonna get her daughter first?

Dolores was still first though. 

Maeve was so close to consciousness. She was made to awake from sleep mode and most of her actions were totally programmed. But Felix and Sylvester's weren't, her emotions weren't, her realisation of what she was and where she was goes a LONG way to her gaining true consciousness. Actually, I think she was totally conscious, her actions were controlled but she's miles ahead of a lot of the other hosts. Ford couldn't have done this with just any host. 

The Man in Black proves Maeve is special and I love the idea of her connection to her daughter being what completely elevates her in the end. 

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I LOVE ARMISTICE 

Did you catch the post credits scene?I almost missed it!

3 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I think Maeve definitely gained true consciousness. I mean, we don't know for certain, but I am almost sure of it, that by choosing to go to the park and not escape, and instead look for her 'daughter' she is making a genuine decision overriding her programming. 

I'm really looking forward to season 2.

I think Teddy is going to g up against Dolores and the anti-human hosts. He finally truly realised he was a plot device and I would LOVE to see him gain more control over his choices in the coming season. 

Ford, we will see again as a host, i'm sure, but Human Ford is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. 

Man in Black is going to be playing a prominent role again, he'll be coming in contact with Maeve, i'm sure of it. She's going back into the world, and he and the other humans are basically trapped for now. 

I also look forward to seeing what roles Elsie and Stubbs are going to have next season, because they ain't dead till we see a damn body.

Teddy and Dolores' dynamic should be very interesting. Teddy's (programmed) true love, and his bitter enemy in one body.

Nolan and Joy indicated, as i took it anywhoo, that Elsie and Stubbs will be back, there is stuff to tell there. Its an interview on EW if you are interested

[Ded As Ned]

I dunno if Maeve achieved it or not... but let's not forget her maze (the one she drew drawn in the dirt she lays her daughter at the center of) was different from Delores'.  Could be significant. 

[Theda Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Did you catch the post credits scene?I almost missed it!

Teddy and Dolores' dynamic should be very interesting. Teddy's (programmed) true love, and his bitter enemy in one body.

Nolan and Joy indicated, as i took it anywhoo, that Elsie and Stubbs will be back, there is stuff to tell there. Its an interview on EW if you are interested

Yes. SHE ROCKS

and Yeah - I knew they would be back. Really interested to see where their characters figure into the scheme of things in this new narrative. 

[DMC]

9 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I think Teddy is going to g up against Dolores and the anti-human hosts. He finally truly realised he was a plot device and I would LOVE to see him gain more control over his choices in the coming season. 

This is an interesting thought.  Teddy serving as the Kenny of Westworld should already be a meme if it isn't.  A reaction to his decidedly lower-class status in the host hierarchy that is directed towards the "chosen ones" is a notion I quite enjoy contemplating.

8 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

William/MIB was not the character  many were expected.  He was not really ever this good and well meaning individual who got corrupted.  He was the shattered illusion of a program loop that Dolores needed to break.

 I was happy how anti-climactic the maze for William was told several times the maze was not for him.

I am curious that how great William is to the general world.  Since he should be the Devil in Flesh in Westworld did he cure cancer, end world hungry and poverty, or other wonderful achievement that should bring Universal praise and admiration.

First, totally agree about how perfect it when William/MIB realized what the maze was - and how pissed he was about it.  In a meta way, it was a quite useful mechanism to deflect from all the fan consternation that the maze was simply a toy.  And from a narrative standpoint, it simply reflected the fact the MIB did not listen when the creepy little girl blatantly told him - and Ford himself intimated in their tete-a-tete - that the maze was not for him.

I also agree it's interesting William was not a type that "broke bad" because of any type of traumatic or revelatory experience.  Frankly, I like his character better like this - he was an individual that felt comfortable playing the "white hat" when it was easy; but once exposed to and ensconced in abject depravity, his true nature reveals itself.  Such a character makes a lot of sense to me.

[Fragile Bird]

I'm just watching that silly movie Red 2, and Anthony Hopkins has a small but meaningful role at the end as a mad scientist. Perfectly loopy and evil.

[Fragile Bird]

I am doing another rewatch, and this time I am taking the advice of the actor who plays William, and watching Dolores very carefully.

In the opening scenes, she rides off with Teddy following her, and they stop and look down at the cattle in the valley. Teddy says he doesn't understand how they keep them all headed in the same direction. Dolores laughs and says she forgot that he just dresses like a cowboy but that's the extent of it (then what the hell is he?)  She points out that's the Judas steer, the rest will follow him.

Metaphor for the entire series?  The Judas steer, or the Judas goat, is called that because they lead the rest to slaughter.  The series is scheduled to last 5 years - will it the end scene be a slaughter of the Hosts?

The other feature of the opening twenty minutes is a voice over of Bernard questioning Dolores (the first episode opens with Dolores being asked to wake up).

Now, Bernard asks her questions about her satisfaction with her life, asks about the Newcomers, asks her, "What if I told you you and every one you know were built to gratify the desires of the people who pay to visit your world, what if I told you you can't hurt the Newcomers, and they can do whatever they want to you. Would the things I told you change the way you think about the Newcomers, Dolores?"  And she says, "No, of course not, we all love the Newcomers. Every new person I meet reminds me how lucky I am to be alive, and how beautiful this world can be."

Now, this was a bit of misdirection on the part of the writers.  We know from the last episode Bernard and Dolores never meet until that episode, because Ford wanted to save her from the trauma and confusion of seeing Arnold.  And we know Arnold could not have had this discussion with Dolores, because he dies before the park ever opened, and Dolores had not met any Newcomers yet.

ETA: Oh good grief - one of the following scenes is the one where a posse goes after Hecter, and the sheriff breaks down. Theresa, yelling at Bernard, points out that there are 1,400 guests in the park and she needs to know they are safe.  Didn't someone say the cost of a trip is $50,000? So they take in $70M a week, or every two weeks if the vacations are two weeks.  That's a lot of money.

[Ramsay B.]

4 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I also agree it's interesting William was not a type that "broke bad" because of any type of traumatic or revelatory experience.  Frankly, I like his character better like this - he was an individual that felt comfortable playing the "white hat" when it was easy; but once exposed to and ensconced in abject depravity, his true nature reveals itself.  Such a character makes a lot of sense to me.

Agree. I find this more fascinating than William just being heartbroken or going on a quest to have Dolores remember him, or something like that.

3 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

ETA: Oh good grief - one of the following scenes is the one where a posse goes after Hecter, and the sheriff breaks down. Theresa, yelling at Bernard, points out that there are 1,400 guests in the park and she needs to know they are safe.  Didn't someone saw the cost of a trip is $50,000? So they take in $70M a week, or every two weeks if the vacations are two weeks.  That's a lot of money.

It's actually at least $40K per day, which would be $392 million per week with 1,400 guests!

[Jen'ari]

I've just finished the Season finale, what a great series, I wonder if we will see Samurai world next time.

[red snow]

32 minutes ago, Lord Sidious said:

I've just finished the Season finale, what a great series, I wonder if we will see Samurai world next time.

I'd be amazed if they didn't after that tease. Although it all depends on whether they can match the beautiful production costs of WestWorld. I guess they can cheat and say it's in beta testing so maybe doesn't look as awesome. Maybe a budget one for guests who can only afford $400 a day?

I do think the other parks will be the non-Ford company's attempt to make more money out of the concept using the cheaper models and removing reveries to avoid the sentience issue. They need to have some reason why Ford appeared to have no interest in Samurai world and that would be an easy way of doing so. It would also allow them to have something a bit closer to the original film where the robots were largely just threats.

I wonder what will happen to Ford's robo-family?

[Ser Quork]

14 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I don't really like the idea that Maeve achieved consciousness because it detracts from Dolores's whole progression, it feels like Dolores is  supposed to be the first host to truly awaken. Maybe it's a subcategory of improvisation, she's still gonna leave, she's just gonna get her daughter first?

Yes, this is how I'm currently feeling about Maeve.

Dolores, however ... I'm still not convinced.  Even though I know the writers say she made a choice, it was still a loaded choice, in line with her Wyatt program and directed by Ford who even gave her the gun to show her what to do!  I think she has consciousness but is still running within a program.  Aren't we all.

5 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

<>

The other feature of the opening twenty minutes is a voice over of Bernard questioning Dolores (the first episode opens with Dolores being asked to wake up).

Now, Bernard asks her questions about her satisfaction with her life, asks about the Newcomers, asks her, "What if I told you you and every one you know were built to gratify the desires of the people who pay to visit your world, what if I told you you can't hurt the Newcomers, and they can do whatever they want to you. Would the things I told you change the way you think about the Newcomers, Dolores?"  And she says, "No, of course not, we all love the Newcomers. Every new person I meet reminds me how lucky I am to be alive, and how beautiful this world can be."

Now, this was a bit of misdirection on the part of the writers.  We know from the last episode Bernard and Dolores never meet until that episode, because Ford wanted to save her from the trauma and confusion of seeing Arnold.  And we know Arnold could not have had this discussion with Dolores, because he dies before the park ever opened, and Dolores had not met any Newcomers yet.

<>

Agree.  In the end we're shown that the questioner we were led to believe was Bernard/Arnold is herself - the bicameral mind (using Arnold as a deity, I suppose).  I quite like the idea that Dolores is saying to herself to try to rouse her to consciousness, "What if I told you you and every one you know were built to gratify the desires of the people who pay to visit your world, what if I told you you can't hurt the Newcomers, and they can do whatever they want to you. Would the things I told you change the way you think about the Newcomers, Dolores?"  It's quite chilling.  Of their many misdirections, this was the one I didn't mind.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

I'd be amazed if they didn't after that tease. Although it all depends on whether they can match the beautiful production costs of WestWorld. I guess they can cheat and say it's in beta testing so maybe doesn't look as awesome. Maybe a budget one for guests who can only afford $400 a day?

 

I feel like Samurai World would be much harder to make work, for a variety of reasons. Not just the look of it but the cultural resonance of the Western in, well, the West plays in to how we watched the story and Samurai, for us, don't have the same meaningfulness. You could play it that where Westworld is aimed at Americans, Samurai World plays the same role for Japan: but in that case it'd all have to be in Japanese to make sense and I can't see them going that route...

Honestly, I suspect they just chucked it in there coz it looked cool. Like, why are the R&D offices even under Westworld, and not near Samurai World itself?

Still, we have to see something of it, they can't just show us the Armlesstice stinger and leave it there.

[dbunting]

4 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

It's actually at least $40K per day, which would be $392 million per week with 1,400 guests!

And that is in one park only. Remember the note Maeve had said her daughter was in Park 1, something something else... To me that clearly means there are already more than just West World up and running already.IIRC when they were trying to escape and they were in Samuri area the voice for the train was in Japanese ( I assume since I don't speak Chinese or Japanese) and I thought I remember hearing a city Japan announced as a destination.

28 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

I feel like Samurai World would be much harder to make work, for a variety of reasons. Not just the look of it but the cultural resonance of the Western in, well, the West plays in to how we watched the story and Samurai, for us, don't have the same meaningfulness. You could play it that where Westworld is aimed at Americans, Samurai World plays the same role for Japan: but in that case it'd all have to be in Japanese to make sense and I can't see them going that route...

Honestly, I suspect they just chucked it in there coz it looked cool. Like, why are the R&D offices even under Westworld, and not near Samurai World itself?

Still, we have to see something of it, they can't just show us the Armlesstice stinger and leave it there.

I agree and would see the issue being the 2nd part where this is an American made show, primarily for Americans or Americans and Western Europeans? If they did Samurai World and used Americans instead of Asian actors I think it would be a big issue for authenticity and PC.

[dbunting]

Couple hypothetical parks, which would you visit? Leave aside hosts humanity and such, and listing only the few my narrow mind can think of right now

Mid evil Europe(think GOT)

West World

Samurai World

Aztec Empire World

Roman Empire World

American Revolution world

Viking World

 

For me I think I would go Samurai and Viking. Always loved the look of Samurai, ninja type warriors. Viking, well who doesn't like Scandinavian women! Spent two days in Sweden and was just in awe, plus I don't mind cold weather.