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Lost Melnibonean

Wow, I never noticed that v.15

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 She clutched her captain by the shoulders. "Promise me that you will never turn against me. I could not bear that. Promise me."

"Never, my love."  ADwD Daenerys VI

Is Daario saying he'd never betray her or is he saying he'd never promise to not betray her?  Hmm...

 

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On 3/5/2017 at 8:47 PM, Shmedricko said:

There's a theory that one of the reasons GRRM started giving titles to chapters rather than names (e.g. "The Captain of Guards" instead of "Areo") is because he's setting up for having chapters titled "The Prince That Was Promised" and/or "Azor Ahai Reborn" in the future. Well, I recently realized that parts of these phrases have already appeared in some of the chapter titles so far:

  • The Princess in the Tower
  • The Prince of Winterfell
  • The Griffin Reborn

If GRRM is planning on doing this, I think it would be just like him to hint at it by slipping these words into chapter titles beforehand, hidden in plain sight. Also, the very first epithet chapter title that GRRM used in the books was "The Prophet" -- perhaps a clue that there will be more prophecy-related chapter titles later on.

I saw someone speculate that it was so people couldn't figure out who lives, and who dies by the chapter titles. Which made sense to me. I'm not sure if this contradicts that, but GRRM said he got the concept from Stephen King. So, maybe if anyone knows why he does it, we could figure out why GRRM does.

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12 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

 She clutched her captain by the shoulders. "Promise me that you will never turn against me. I could not bear that. Promise me."

"Never, my love."  ADwD Daenerys VI

Is Daario saying he'd never betray her or is he saying he'd never promise to not betray her?  Hmm...

 

knowing Daario's sly nature I'm going with the latter...

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14 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

 She clutched her captain by the shoulders. "Promise me that you will never turn against me. I could not bear that. Promise me."

"Never, my love."  ADwD Daenerys VI

Is Daario saying he'd never betray her or is he saying he'd never promise to not betray her?  Hmm...

 

Anyone else seeing a Lyanna parallel or am I imagining things?

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6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Anyone else seeing a Lyanna parallel or am I imagining things?

Uh oh... Is this where we start speculating about lemons? 

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4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Uh oh... Is this where we start speculating about lemons? 

Don't tempt me.

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12 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Anyone else seeing a Lyanna parallel or am I imagining things?

That's very interesting given the context that Dany would be betrayed for love or is concerned about Daario's fidelity.

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“You’ve known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?”

“Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven’s paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty.”

The Sworn Sword

Quote

The more Quentyn heard of Daenerys Targaryen, the more he feared that meeting. The Yunkai'i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple.

The Windblown, Dance 25

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“I think the Damphair’s dead. I think the Crow’s Eye slit his throat for him. Ironmaker’s search is just to make us believe the priest escaped. Euron is afraid to be seen as a kinslayer.”

The Wayward Bride, Dance 26

The George often hides the truth in plain sight. 

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I was reading about Elizabeth I and Thomas Seymour when I noticed there are striking similarities between the historical figures and Sansa and Petyr Baelish.

 

Someone made a good thread about it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/261o78/spoilers_twow_gloriana_sansa_and_elizabeth_i/

 

Additionally, I've read from numerous other sources (while I'm not sure accurate they are, or of the thread starter's own historical information) that Seymour was cunning, scheming, a social climber, and narcissistic... While the 14-year-old Elizabeth was living with him and her step-mother (Catherine Parr), he gave her inappropriate attention, some of which included shredding up her gown, and coming into her bedroom in the mornings to "romp around." I think he tried to marry her. 

 

Edward VI (Elizabeth I's brother, and king after Henry VIII) also reminds me of Sweetrobin. At least in the past, it seems there was a common misconception that he was a sickly person, plus he was The Heir.  He died young of illness. 

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1 hour ago, Lizard Princess said:

I was reading about Elizabeth I and Thomas Seymour when I noticed there are striking similarities between the historical figures and Sansa and Petyr Baelish.

 

Someone made a good thread about it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/261o78/spoilers_twow_gloriana_sansa_and_elizabeth_i/

 

Additionally, I've read from numerous other sources (while I'm not sure accurate they are, or of the thread starter's own historical information) that Seymour was cunning, scheming, a social climber, and narcissistic... While the 14-year-old Elizabeth was living with him and her step-mother (Catherine Parr), he gave her inappropriate attention, some of which included shredding up her gown, and coming into her bedroom in the mornings to "romp around." I think he tried to marry her. 

 

Edward VI (Elizabeth I's brother, and king after Henry VIII) also reminds me of Sweetrobin. At least in the past, it seems there was a common misconception that he was a sickly person, plus he was The Heir.  He died young of illness. 

Seymour did try to marry Elizabeth and was beheaded for it.  It was illegal to marry a princess without the king's permission, which Seymour didn't have.

Sansa has a few parallels with Elizabeth I, though jumbled up.  In addition to the step-father parallel,  "Sweetrobin" was the nickname Elizabeth I had for Robert Dudley.

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“I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief,”
(ASoS,Ch.43 Arya VIII)

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Somewhere far off she heard a wolf howling. It wasn’t very loud compared to the camp noise and the music and the low ominous growl of the river running wild, but she heard it all the same. Only maybe it wasn’t her ears that heard it. The sound shivered through Arya like a knife, sharp with rage and grief. (ASoS, Ch.52 Arya XI)

 

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Qhorin convincing Mormont to let him take Jon Snow on a special ranging mission:

Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks."

(ASoS, Jon V)

Why do Qhorin and Mormont believe that the Starks have a special relationship with the old gods?

Wouldn't the old gods also be the gods of the Mormonts? Do we ever get a definitive indication of the religion of House Mormont? A few paragraphs earlier, Mormont said, "May the gods forgive me."

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On 3/12/2017 at 10:52 AM, Seams said:

Qhorin convincing Mormont to let him take Jon Snow on a special ranging mission:

Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks."

(ASoS, Jon V)

Why do Qhorin and Mormont believe that the Starks have a special relationship with the old gods?

Wouldn't the old gods also be the gods of the Mormonts? Do we ever get a definitive indication of the religion of House Mormont? A few paragraphs earlier, Mormont said, "May the gods forgive me."

Mormonts follow the old gods like other First Men houses. Jorah was only knighted due to his heroic during the Greyjoy Rebellion and not because he followed the seven.

The Starks have been around since the Dawn Age so if its likely if there was some of connection it would be with them. Qhorin does say a lot of odd things.

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Edd resembles mules, and Jon resembles horses.

ADWD Jon XII

"How do you find serving under Iron Emmett?" Jon asked.

"Mostly it's Black Maris serving under him, m'lord. Me, I have the mules. Nettles claims we're kin. It's true we have the same long face, but I'm not near as stubborn. Anyway I never knew their mothers, on my honor." He finished the last of his eggs and sighed. "I do like me a nice runny egg. If it please m'lord, don't let the wildlings eat all our chickens."

Out in the yard, the eastern sky had just begun to lighten. There was not a wisp of cloud in sight. "We have a good day for this, it would seem," Jon said. "A bright day, warm and sunny."

"The Wall will weep. And winter almost on us. It's unnatural, m'lord. A bad sign, you ask me."

Jon smiled. "And if it were to snow?"

"A worse sign."

"What sort of weather would you prefer?"

"The sort they keep indoors," said Dolorous Edd. "If it please m'lord, I should get back to my mules. They miss me when I'm gone. More than I can say for them spearwives."

They parted there, Tollett for the east road, where his wagons waited, Jon Snow for the stables. Satin had his horse saddled and bridled and waiting for him, a fiery grey courser with a mane as black and shiny as maester's ink. He was not the sort of mount that Jon would have chosen for a ranging, but on this morning all that mattered was that he look impressive, and for that the stallion was a perfect choice.

Edd is mule-faced. He returns to his mules. Jon is horse-faced. He returns to the stables. May be more going on here? House Tollett is a Vale house sworn to the Royces of Runestone/ Yohn Royce who are close to the Starks. Yohn is the father of Waymar. There have been a few Stark/Royce marriages which indicates a connection between the families which extends beyond Ned and Yohn.

Is this hinting that Edd’s loyalty isn’t just to Jon personally, or as LC, but that he’s also loyal because he’s a Stark?

Is this hinting that Edd is a mule and has Stark blood himself? A mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse. Jocelyn Stark married Benedict Royce. They had three daughters who married a Templeton, a Corbray, and a Waynwood.  I can’t find any association between Tolletts and donkeys, and the genealogy has massive holes, so not sure about this.

 Kind of interesting that Jon compares Satin unfavorably to Edd in the immediately preceding Jon chapter before this exchange.

 

ADWD Jon IX: Jon's rooms behind the armory were quiet enough, if not especially warm. His fire had gone out some time ago; Satin was not as diligent in feeding it as Dolorous Edd had been.

 

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9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Edd resembles mules, and Jon resembles horses.

ADWD Jon XII

"How do you find serving under Iron Emmett?" Jon asked.

"Mostly it's Black Maris serving under him, m'lord. Me, I have the mules. Nettles claims we're kin. It's true we have the same long face, but I'm not near as stubborn. Anyway I never knew their mothers, on my honor." He finished the last of his eggs and sighed. "I do like me a nice runny egg. If it please m'lord, don't let the wildlings eat all our chickens."

Out in the yard, the eastern sky had just begun to lighten. There was not a wisp of cloud in sight. "We have a good day for this, it would seem," Jon said. "A bright day, warm and sunny."

"The Wall will weep. And winter almost on us. It's unnatural, m'lord. A bad sign, you ask me."

Jon smiled. "And if it were to snow?"

"A worse sign."

"What sort of weather would you prefer?"

"The sort they keep indoors," said Dolorous Edd. "If it please m'lord, I should get back to my mules. They miss me when I'm gone. More than I can say for them spearwives."

They parted there, Tollett for the east road, where his wagons waited, Jon Snow for the stables. Satin had his horse saddled and bridled and waiting for him, a fiery grey courser with a mane as black and shiny as maester's ink. He was not the sort of mount that Jon would have chosen for a ranging, but on this morning all that mattered was that he look impressive, and for that the stallion was a perfect choice.

Edd is mule-faced. He returns to his mules. Jon is horse-faced. He returns to the stables. May be more going on here? House Tollett is a Vale house sworn to the Royces of Runestone/ Yohn Royce who are close to the Starks. Yohn is the father of Waymar. There have been a few Stark/Royce marriages which indicates a connection between the families which extends beyond Ned and Yohn.

Is this hinting that Edd’s loyalty isn’t just to Jon personally, or as LC, but that he’s also loyal because he’s a Stark?

Is this hinting that Edd is a mule and has Stark blood himself? A mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse. Jocelyn Stark married Benedict Royce. They had three daughters who married a Templeton, a Corbray, and a Waynwood.  I can’t find any association between Tolletts and donkeys, and the genealogy has massive holes, so not sure about this.

 Kind of interesting that Jon compares Satin unfavorably to Edd in the immediately preceding Jon chapter before this exchange.

ADWD Jon IX: Jon's rooms behind the armory were quiet enough, if not especially warm. His fire had gone out some time ago; Satin was not as diligent in feeding it as Dolorous Edd had been.

Nice catch. It's a stretch, but not completely out of the question. Since when, though, does Jon compare Satin unfavorably to anyone? Jon loves those curls. 

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56 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nice catch. It's a stretch, but not completely out of the question. Since when, though, does Jon compare Satin unfavorably to anyone? Jon loves those curls. 

Absolutely he loves those curls! But those curls just don't light Jon's fire like Edd does :P

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9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Edd resembles mules, and Jon resembles horses.

ADWD Jon XII

"How do you find serving under Iron Emmett?" Jon asked.

"Mostly it's Black Maris serving under him, m'lord. Me, I have the mules. Nettles claims we're kin. It's true we have the same long face, but I'm not near as stubborn. Anyway I never knew their mothers, on my honor." He finished the last of his eggs and sighed. "I do like me a nice runny egg. If it please m'lord, don't let the wildlings eat all our chickens."

Out in the yard, the eastern sky had just begun to lighten. There was not a wisp of cloud in sight. "We have a good day for this, it would seem," Jon said. "A bright day, warm and sunny."

"The Wall will weep. And winter almost on us. It's unnatural, m'lord. A bad sign, you ask me."

Jon smiled. "And if it were to snow?"

"A worse sign."

"What sort of weather would you prefer?"

"The sort they keep indoors," said Dolorous Edd. "If it please m'lord, I should get back to my mules. They miss me when I'm gone. More than I can say for them spearwives."

They parted there, Tollett for the east road, where his wagons waited, Jon Snow for the stables. Satin had his horse saddled and bridled and waiting for him, a fiery grey courser with a mane as black and shiny as maester's ink. He was not the sort of mount that Jon would have chosen for a ranging, but on this morning all that mattered was that he look impressive, and for that the stallion was a perfect choice.

Edd is mule-faced. He returns to his mules. Jon is horse-faced. He returns to the stables. May be more going on here? House Tollett is a Vale house sworn to the Royces of Runestone/ Yohn Royce who are close to the Starks. Yohn is the father of Waymar. There have been a few Stark/Royce marriages which indicates a connection between the families which extends beyond Ned and Yohn.

Is this hinting that Edd’s loyalty isn’t just to Jon personally, or as LC, but that he’s also loyal because he’s a Stark?

Is this hinting that Edd is a mule and has Stark blood himself? A mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse. Jocelyn Stark married Benedict Royce. They had three daughters who married a Templeton, a Corbray, and a Waynwood.  I can’t find any association between Tolletts and donkeys, and the genealogy has massive holes, so not sure about this.

 Kind of interesting that Jon compares Satin unfavorably to Edd in the immediately preceding Jon chapter before this exchange.

ADWD Jon IX: Jon's rooms behind the armory were quiet enough, if not especially warm. His fire had gone out some time ago; Satin was not as diligent in feeding it as Dolorous Edd had been.

In January, I was blown away by an insight from @GloubieBoulga that Dolorous Edd seems to represent Ned Stark, sharing wisdom from beyond the grave.

The revealing line in this dialog between Edd and Jon is when Edd says he has a long face like a mule, but he never knew the mules' mothers. Since mules are the offspring of a donkey and a horse, Edd might be saying that he knows he has a horse face (a feature associated with Ned Stark as well as Jon and Arya and Lyanna) but he is not the father of the mules.

According to the World book, Ned Stark's mother was from a cadet branch of the Stark family, so Ned was a Stark on both sides of the family. Tyrion has said that Jon "has more of the north in him" than his brothers have. I interpret this as a hint that the Stark children are half-Stark and half-Tully, while Jon might be Stark on both the maternal and paternal sides.

If these pieces have been fit together accurately, this passage could be saying that Jon and Ned / Edd are both horses, contrasted with mules which are half horse, half donkey. (It's true that the offspring of a female donkey and male horse would be a hinny, not a mule, but maybe GRRM decided not to get into the details of animal husbandry and used the more widely-used term for the hybrid.)

I think you are right, though, to try to put the Royce connection in context. There is something about House Royce that is central to the history of the north and the Others and the Starks, and we haven't yet gotten all the details.

As for the bit about Satin and Edd stoking Jon's fire, I think that is also symbolic. There are many cases throughout ASOIAF of young people being metaphorically turned into weapons. Jon being "forged" and annealed has been going on at least since he burned his hand while defending Mormont from the wight, if not earlier. Satin became part of Jon's inner circle after his sexual awakening with Ygritte and after learning about Mance's mended cloak lined with red silk that represented Mance's decision to embrace love and sex instead of his vow to the Night's Watch. Maybe the contrast is to show the pro-NW faction turning Jon into a weapon and the pro-free folk or pro-love faction trying to cool him down. Heating and cooling are both needed to forge steel, though, so maybe both the hot fire and the less hot are needed to create the weapon.

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When the last of the riders had disappeared into the trees, Jon Snow rode the winch cage down with Dolorous Edd. A few scattered snowflakes were falling as they made their slow descent, dancing on the gusty wind. One followed the cage down, drifting just beyond the bars. It was falling faster than they were descending and from time to time would vanish beneath them. Then a gust of wind would catch it and push it upward once again. Jon could have reached through the bars and caught it if he had wished.

Jon, Dance 28

What does the dancing snowflake represent? 

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48 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Jon, Dance 28

What does the dancing snowflake represent? 

The excerpt reminds me of the scene with Bran crossing through the Black Gate: Bran travels in a basket on Hodor's back; Jon is in a cage. Bran descended into a well in the Night Fort; Jon is descending from the top of the Wall. Bran brushes against a salty tear; Jon could catch a single snowflake.

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

(ASoS, Bran IV)

I know a lot of people think dancing represents engaging in battle because of the Targ / Blackfyre conflicts known as the Dance of the Dragons. But I think it is also used as a metaphor for sex. And it may have additional meanings, now that you raise this example, because battle and sex don't seem to describe Jon's interaction with the snowflake. Of course, this scene is coming up on the attack by his Night's Watch brothers. Maybe the quickly descending and disappearing snowflake is just foreshadowing Jon's own death, and the wind that pushes it up again could represent his revival.

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