Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Lost Melnibonean

Wow, I never noticed that v.15

Recommended Posts

37 minutes ago, Seams said:

Are we supposed to compare Sweetrobin to Bran, Bloodraven or both? I noticed similarities when re-reading AFfC, Alayne II, in which Sansa and Sweetrobin (and Mya and Myranda and Maester Colemon) descend from the Eyrie. Elements of Bran's journey and the scenes in Bloodraven's cave seem to match with details of this Alayne POV.

~~~

This could probably be it's own thread because I have noticed some similarities too, which means others probably have as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This could probably be it's own thread because I have noticed some similarities too, which means others probably have as well.

I was only going to compare the physical descriptions but the parallels kept growing as I finished the chapter and started writing. I'll copy and paste what I posted into a new thread. I thought of something else this morning, too.

And here is the new thread:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"[...] The first Faceless Man was one who did."

"Who was he?" Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.

"No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder's son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered . . . until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.

"All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces . . . and he was that god's instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given."

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"

 

Tyrion achieves the state of mind of the first Faceless Man.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion XI

Sometimes he envied the girl all her pretty little dreams. She reminded him of Sansa Stark, the child bride he had wed and lost. Despite the horrors Penny had suffered, she remained somehow trusting. She should know better. She is older than Sansa. And she's a dwarf. She acts as if she has forgotten that, as if she were highborn and fair to look upon, instead of a slave in a grotesquerie. At night Tyrion would oft hear her praying. A waste of words. If there are gods to listen, they are monstrous gods who torment us for their sport. Who else would make a world like this, so full of bondage, blood, and pain? Who else would shape us as they have? Sometimes he wanted to slap her, shake her, scream at her, anything to wake her from her dreams. No one is going to save us, he wanted to scream at her. The worst is yet to come. Yet somehow he could never say the words. Instead of giving her a good hard crack across that ugly face of hers to knock the blinders from her eyes, he would find himself squeezing her shoulder or giving her a hug. Every touch a lie. I have paid her so much false coin that she half thinks she's rich.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion XII

She was not all wrong. Yezzan's slaves ate better than many peasants back in the Seven Kingdoms and were less like to starve to death come winter. Slaves were chattels, aye. They could be bought and sold, whipped and branded, used for the carnal pleasure of their owners, bred to make more slaves. In that sense they were no more than dogs or horses. But most lords treated their dogs and horses well enough. Proud men might shout that they would sooner die free than live as slaves, but pride was cheap. When the steel struck the flint, such men were rare as dragon's teeth; elsewise the world would not have been so full of slaves. There has never been a slave who did not choose to be a slave, the dwarf reflected. Their choice may be between bondage and death, but the choice is always there.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cotter Pyke talking to Sam Tarly
“Sam the Slayer!” he said, by way of greeting. “Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child’s snow knight?”

Seems to indicate the Others were created by the children really cool when i noticed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2017 at 1:52 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Cotter Pyke talking to Sam Tarly
“Sam the Slayer!” he said, by way of greeting. “Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child’s snow knight?”

Seems to indicate the Others were created by the children really cool when i noticed it.

Nice catch!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Serving men cleared away the swan, hardly touched. Cersei beckoned for the sweet. “I hope you like blackberry tarts.”

Martin, George R.R.. A Clash of Kings: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Two (p. 584). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

I don't know how I missed this little jab before she brings in Alayaya. Too funny. Reminds me of one of my fav lines in the show:

Quote

“Ah yes, the famously tart-tongued Queen of Thorns."

“And the famous tart, Queen Cersei.”

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2017 at 1:52 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Cotter Pyke talking to Sam Tarly
“Sam the Slayer!” he said, by way of greeting. “Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child’s snow knight?”

Seems to indicate the Others were created by the children really cool when i noticed it.

When Sansa builds her snow castle at the Eyrie, that turns into Winterfell, doesn't she start out with the intention of creating a snow knight? So there is an additional layer of meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Seams said:

When Sansa builds her snow castle at the Eyrie, that turns into Winterfell, doesn't she start out with the intention of creating a snow knight? So there is an additional layer of meaning.

Hmm i dont know how they could be connected but definatly sounds like there could be something going on there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The banker studied her with shrewd dark eyes. “You are the Lady Asha of House Greyjoy, unless I am mistaken.”
“I am Asha of House Greyjoy, aye. Opinions differ on whether I’m a lady.”

ADwD, Ch.62 The Sacrifice

Sometime Princess and would-be Queen of the Iron Isles subtly corrects the address of Tycho Nestoris, humble servant of the Bank of Braavos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never noticed how freaking tall the Hightower is! This is my fourth re-read and only now did I pay attention when Jon tells Ygritte that Hightower is taller than the wall. That is impressive, the wall was supposedly build using magic and the help of giants, but the Hightowers managed to buildt the Empire State Building in Oldtown. No wonder the current lord Hightowers haven't descended for a decade, imagine those stairs! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Surely the Hightower has a winch @LordManderlyAsDragonRider  All that fuel for the beacon. The Mad Maid would be the Step champion of Westeros otherwise.

*

Quote

When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves

When the seas fill with pack ice and the snow blows in drifts.

Winter is coming. Der.

(It must have been mentioned here before, I can't believe I've never noticed this interpretation.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/14/2017 at 7:15 AM, Walda said:

When the seas fill with pack ice and the snow blows in drifts.

Winter is coming. Der.

(It must have been mentioned here before, I can't believe I've never noticed this interpretation.)

I don't recall ever seeing that interpretation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 14.5.2017 at 8:43 AM, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

I never noticed how freaking tall the Hightower is! This is my fourth re-read and only now did I pay attention when Jon tells Ygritte that Hightower is taller than the wall. That is impressive, the wall was supposedly build using magic and the help of giants, but the Hightowers managed to buildt the Empire State Building in Oldtown. No wonder the current lord Hightowers haven't descended for a decade, imagine those stairs! 

not to mention that they are showing by habouring  Alekyne  florent (an act of treason) how resented the florents in the reach are

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Invalid Date at 10:52 AM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Cotter Pyke talking to Sam Tarly
“Sam the Slayer!” he said, by way of greeting. “Are you sure you stabbed an Other, and not some child’s snow knight?”

Seems to indicate the Others were created by the children really cool when i noticed it.

Holy shit! Nice catch!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What happened to the wolf cake that Hot Pie gave to Brienne to give to Arya? Eventually Brienne found Arya but was the cake already eaten or gone off?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/9/2017 at 0:44 PM, Milady de Winterfell said:

Mance Rayder. Manse raider. *walks away, ashamed*

Oh gods... I never saw that either. I even catch myself typoing Manse instead of Mance and it still didn't dawn on me. I'll join you in the corner of shame.

Some that I've noticed on my third re-read... mostly from ASoS:

Quote

When the moonstones hung from Sansa’s ears and about her neck, the queen nodded. “Yes. The gods have been kind to you, Sansa. You are a lovely girl. It seems almost obscene to squander such sweet innocence on that gargoyle.”

“What gargoyle?” Sansa did not understand. Did she mean Willas? How could she know? No one knew, but her and Margaery and the Queen of Thorns . . . oh, and Dontos, but he didn’t count.

Martin, George R.R.. A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (p. 383). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Daenerys' sacking of Astapor becomes more apparent:

Quote

The red brick streets of Astapor were almost crowded this morning. Slaves and servants lined the ways, while the slavers and their women donned their tokars to look down from their stepped pyramids. They are not so different from Qartheen after all, she thought. They want a glimpse of dragons to tell their children of, and their children’s children. It made her wonder how many of them would ever have children.

Martin, George R.R.. A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (p. 376). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

A little tee-hee in an Arya chapter:

Quote

“Well, I might be.” When the girl shrugged, her gown slipped off one shoulder. “They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn’t have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best.”

The girl did have hair like the old king’s, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn’t mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair.

Martin, George R.R.. A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (p. 401). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

Craster

My biggest "find" or, really, question regards Craster. First, this section of Sam's chapter seems odd.

Quote

Lord Commander Mormont bristled. “Thoren Smallwood claimed you were a friend to the Watch—”

“Aye,” said Craster. “I gave you all I could spare, but winter’s coming on, and now the girl’s stuck me with another squalling mouth to feed.”

“We could take him,” someone squeaked.

Craster’s head turned. His eyes narrowed. He spat on Sam’s foot. “What did you say, Slayer?”

Sam opened and closed his mouth. “I . . . I . . . I only meant . . . if you didn’t want him . . . his mouth to feed . . . with winter coming on, we . . . we could take him, and . . .”

“My son. My blood. You think I’d give him to you crows?”

Martin, George R.R.. A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (pp. 451-452). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

It begs a couple of questions.

  1. Does he think people don't know he sacrifices his sons? He seems to think that at least the Night's Watch is ignorant of this fact. He claims he has another mouth to feed and that's why they need to leave. Does he think he's hidden this fact from the Free Folk as well?
    • Any of Free Folk characters mention anything about Craster's sons?
  2. He's so defensive of the child as his son and blood. Can this be indicating that he has more knowledge about the fate of his sons? Could they, in his eyes, be alive and transformed? Perhaps they're more than just sacrifices. I'm sure other people have theorized on this heavily but I've never taken much interest in Craster until now.
Quote

She punched him again. “Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t’ his Wall. She went t’ Castle Black once t’ show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster’s blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse.”

Martin, George R.R.. A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (p. 365). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

We see that the Free Folk don't really seem to consider him to be one of them. What's this curse she speaks of? Is it kinslaying only? It makes me wonder if perhaps she's speaking of a curse he's had since birth for some reason. Could just be me reading to far in, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Traverys said:

Craster

My biggest "find" or, really, question regards Craster. First, this section of Sam's chapter seems odd.

It begs a couple of questions.

  1. Does he think people don't know he sacrifices his sons? He seems to think that at least the Night's Watch is ignorant of this fact. He claims he has another mouth to feed and that's why they need to leave. Does he think he's hidden this fact from the Free Folk as well?
    • Any of Free Folk characters mention anything about Craster's sons?
  2. He's so defensive of the child as his son and blood. Can this be indicating that he has more knowledge about the fate of his sons? Could they, in his eyes, be alive and transformed? Perhaps they're more than just sacrifices. I'm sure other people have theorized on this heavily but I've never taken much interest in Craster until now.

We see that the Free Folk don't really seem to consider him to be one of them. What's this curse she speaks of? Is it kinslaying only? It makes me wonder if perhaps she's speaking of a curse he's had since birth for some reason. Could just be me reading to far in, of course.

The mouth Craster has to feed isn't his son's mouth, it's the white walker's mouth. He is "stuck" having to give the boy to the wood, as Mormont puts it, and Craster would rather the Night's Watch not be around for that.

I think this is the key phrase: "Craster’s more your kind than ours." I suspect Craster is a Stark. The name got turned around, sort of like Karstark is a variation on the original surname.

There was a good thread last year sometime that theorized Craster has been satisfying the terms of an agreement between the Starks and the CotF or between the Starks and the weirwoods or white walkers. But what happens when he can no longer provide blood sacrifices to satisfy the human side of this bargain?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A big theme jumping out in my re-read is "you kill the ones you love".  It seems to go beyond just happenstance or literary irony, rather it seems to be at the heart of GRRM's bracingly realistic/existential take on the nature of human relationships.  Of course, the theme links to many others such as blood sacrifice.
 
"Everyone wants to be loved."
"I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."
- aCoK, Sansa IV
 
"kill" in this sense --  the love between the main character and the dead loved one that (in a more or less metaphoric/poetic sense) could be said to have caused the dead person's death, or something the main character did inadvertently caused the death. (Obviously not "kill" in any strict or legal sense.)
 
There are many could be added, but here are a few that come to mind:
 
1.  Dany
(a) killed her mother
(b) killed Viserys even though she, not Viserys, was the person who first drew blood in Vaes Dothrak
(c) killed Drogo by ordering MMD to treat his wound, over objections from the Dothraki (and then literally killing him with her "pillow trick"
(d) killed Rhaego by having MMD perform her blood magic (MMD says she knew the price)
 
2.  Jon
(a) killed his mother
 
3.  Tyrion
(a) killed his mother
(b) killed his (apparent) father, or in any event the man who was his father figure for better or worse
(c) killed Tysha?
(d) killed Shae?
 
4.  Bran
(a) killed Jojen
 
5.  Sansa
(a) killed Lady
 
6.  Catelyn
(a) killed Ned by making him go South
 
7.  Jamie and Cersei
(a) valonqar
 
8.  Rhaegar
(a) killed Lyanna
(b) killed Elia and his children
(c) killed his father
 
9.  Robert
(a) killed Ned by asking him to become the Hand.
 
10.  Robb
(a) killed his mother?
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×