R+L=J v.163

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

You're applying our modern standards to a situation where the most powerful family on two continents comes from a culture which over many, many generations and thousands of years practiced incestuous marriage.  Don't you think they would have long reconciled to the revulsion we (and the whole of Westeros except J&C, Craster etc) feel at the idea of marrying a sibling or close relative (if they ever did feel that way)?  If you're insanely beautiful, can command dragons and pretty much rule the world, you'd probably be quite comfortable that your policy of sibling marriage is working just fine, and may have even evolved to prefer it.  Targaryen children wouldn't naturally be grossed out about even suggesting it, like kids teasing each other would be today.  Dunk even remarks on it to himself when Egg treats incest as such a normal and everyday thing.

Just to clarify, I don't find incest all that revolting. But then, I'm not gay and I only have brothers so I don't really know how it is to have a sister.

And I'm not talking about arranged incestuous marriages as a concept or a family tradition. It is quite clear that the Targaryens always did that and it would be also quite clear that Duncan, Jaehaerys, and Shaera grew in an environment when this was still very present - after all, their uncle Aerion was married to his cousin, and their father had once been betrothed to his own sister Daella. Not to mention that the twins Aelor and Aelora had married each other.

Yandel tells us that Jaehaerys really liked the family tradition, very much idealizing the idea of sibling incest, etc. He clearly was some sort of weird romantic.

However, the problem is that this kind of thing shouldn't have a strong effect on the actual sex drive of the people involved. I mean, Jaehaerys and Shaera might have liked the idea of incest marriage but that doesn't mean either of them would have been immune to the beauty of other gorgeous-looking people.

The weirdness of this situation is the idea that actual romantic love was a the core of this incest marriage because it is very unlikely that the attraction to a sibling you are raised with is strong enough to overcome the attraction to other people you might meet in your love, people you don't know inside and out.

The fact that Targaryens don't live in an incestuous bubble is very much confirmed by the affairs the many Targaryens who were married to close relatives also entertained.

And who knows? We know that Jaehaerys and Shaera married at a very early age. Perhaps they eventually got over their infatuation and sobered up. They produced only two children possibly suggesting that they weren't all that much into each other later in life. We don't know anything about their relationship after their married.

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

That's why I think it's likely Jon and Dany are going to be drawn to each other, even while they're unaware of their connection.

As per the definition of most societies aunt-nephew relationships aren't really incest. It is odd but not necessarily forbidden or even a crime to be punished. In addition, we have to keep in mind that siblings/close relatives who weren't raised together actually often enough find themselves attracted to each other. That kind of thing could happen with Dany and Jon, too, especially since I find it not unlikely that neither of them is going to know anything about Jon's true parentage by the time they meet each other.

[J. Stargaryen]

A couple of pages back a few people mentioned their preferred, and/or most likely, alternatives to RLJ. I was a bit surprised that AD+L=J wasn't almost unanimous. Although I generally agree with the criticisms mentioned by @Kingmonkey and @SFDanny, I still think it presents the strongest alternative case on all fronts. At least cumulatively, if not individually.

Some disclaimers before I make a small case for AD+L=J: I believe RLJ. I do not believe AD+L=J. However, IF GRRM is pulling a grand prank on us, and RLJ is a red herring, then I do believe AD+L=J is the only alternative for a variety of reasons. Also, despite a few people writing posts and essays in favor of AD+L=J, I'm not sure the best, or rather the most complete, case has been put forward. At least not that I know of. I'll post some stuff below that I think has been missed. Again, at least as far as I know. However, please keep in mind that I am, or at least may be, aware that alternative explanations and/or interpretations exist for evidence I list.

Since I'm posting this, I'm obviously open to discussion, answering questions, clarifications, etc. However, I'm not especially invested in this idea, which means I'm not overly enthusiastic about defending it. And I've probably shortchanged some of my arguments by limiting most of my research to AGoT. Because again, I don't even believe in AD+L=J. I believe RLJ. Please keep all of that in mind as you're reading. The gist of my argument is that, regardless of how certain theories have been evaluated and judged, AD+L=J is the only real alternative.

Before diving into some of the reasons why I think AD+L=J is the strongest alternative, really the only possible alternative in my mind, I want to point out the basis for these recent R+L≠J cases. I've been a member of these forums for about 4.5 years now. As I recall it now, the bulk of R+L≠J arguments were based on a lack of evidence. In other words, the evidence for RLJ wasn't very convincing. On the contrary, the case for RLJ is very strong, to say the least. A point which is rarely contested these days. Thanks in part, I think, to the many RLJ regulars who answered the call over the years.

I said all that to say this: All of the XYJ essays are based upon the premise that RLJ is an intention red herring by GRRM, and ought to be evaluated through that lens. Now, I would argue that red herrings don't really work this way, since you can't mislead an audience that doesn't know it's being fooled. And for so long, so much of the audience was blissfully unaware of RLJ. Anyway... leaving all that aside, assuming that RLJ is a red herring--and despite what I just got done saying, it really has to be in order for R+L≠J to work--we might have good reason to answer some of the AD+L=J criticisms mentioned. About the lack of positive evidence, specifically something between Arthur and Lyanna.

Because RLJ would be a non-traditional red herring, and really constitute a fake out on a grand scale, we would have to assume GRRM would be going "all in" in his attempt to deceive the more skilled reader who susses out RLJ. Which would explain the lack of positive evidence for AD+L=J. And IMO, would mean that we shouldn't put a big emphasis on the aforementioned "positive evidence." So it would mean that GRRM couldn't exactly tell us that Lyanna met Arthur Dayne and was enamored with Dawn. But, he could lay the groundwork for such a scenario by repeatedly showing us that she was interested in swords. Because if you're a girl who is interested in swords, there's a fair chance you'd be impressed by Dawn. And I suppose one could even understand this interest in "swords" as a metaphor for an interest in someone whose house has a sword on its sigil. Maybe.

Right now I want to address some of the reasons why AD+L=J is really the best alternative. Some are basic, some are narrative, others are meta-narrative.

It fits in the timeline. That's big. Nothing has to fudged, or chucked out the window altogether.

Dawn. A special sword that seems destined to play a part in the series. In fact, it may be the legendary Lightbringer, or the original Stark family sword, Ice. Or both!

Arthur Dayne appears to be an homage to Arthurian legend--As is the ToJ, btw. Perhaps meant to emphasize the Arthurian theme here.--combining King Arthur and Sir Lancelot. Arthur Dayne is not the king, but his name is Arthur and he has a very special, unique sword. Plus, he's meant to be the finest knight of his day. Well, Lancelot was also famous for stealing a lady who didn't belong to him.

Jonny Sword. The sword symbolism/theme with Jon. Even better if we're talking about Lightbringer. After all, it's not a large stretch that Dawn was the original LB. If you're interested in this line of inquiry I'd recommend reading @Schmendrick's R+L=LB essays. Lots of Jon-sword stuff. For AD+L=J, the key takeaway from the symbolism/theme of Jon and swords is the Dayne sigil, which features a sword and falling star. Now, because there is also a star, it's not as clear cut as when we say that lion symbolism means Lannisters, dragons for Targaryens and so on. But, if we're meant to think of sword symbolism the same way we do with lions and dragons, then I'm assuming that swords means Dayne. Alternatively, KGs are called "white swords" repeatedly throughout the series.

A bit further out there, but based on the similar wording of the LB and Dawn origin stories*, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the sword and star on the Dayne sigil are representative of a man and woman. I'm sure we can figure out which is which. In other words, "sword" could symbolically refer to a male Dayne. This last part is a bit crackpot, but many moons ago I wondered if star:Stark::day:Dayne, which might play into that idea.

*(LB was forged in Nissa Nissa's heart, Dawn was forged from the heart of a falling star.)

Now, with that in mind, I'd ask everyone to (re)consider a few passages through the lens of AD+L=J. Some of them are more familiar than others.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.” - AGoT, Arya I

This is popular with the RLJ crowd. Most of us take this to mean that Jon is trueborn since we know Joff is a bastard. Why does GRRM choose "trueborn sword" here? Is GRRM telling us Jon is a bastard sword Dayne?

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man’s sword he dreamt of… - AGot, Jon VIII

This is when Mormont gives Jon the (bastard) sword, Longclaw. Upon receiving this magnificent sword, Jon kind of freaks out and thinks about his father. For Jon that's Ned, but the audience knows better by now. The dramatic irony marks this passage as worth paying attention to, I think. "Knowing" that Jon's father is really Rhaegar, can we make sense of this paragraph, does it fit? It's tricky because the Targaryens don't have any special swords anymore. Blackfyre and Dark Sister are long gone. But, Schmendrick came up with an interpretation I quite like a couple of years back. That the "swords" are a reference to the IT.

Now, let's try the same thing with AD+L=J. "Knowing" that Arthur is Jon's father, can we make sense of this paragraph, does it fit? I think the answer is obviously yes. Jon's internal struggle here is about his father and his swords, specifically his father's sword. That's quite compatible with Arthur being Jon's father.

I'll post a few other passages from AGoT that stood out to me as possible evidence for the AD+L=J argument. They're interpretations of course, but I don't think any of them "interpret" more than normal. Nor do I think they are very convincing. Especially individually.

[Ned] lifted the greatsword high above his head.
Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. - Bran I

A greatsword, like Dawn, in the last sentence of one paragraph, and then the Jon is described as a bastard in the first sentence of a new paragraph. Meh. This barely caught my eye. But it's a possible connection between "greatsword" "bastard" "Jon." It gets better.

Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.” - Jon I

"I'm the better sword." It could be something on its own. But there's also something of a sword/lance dichotomy. Which might be worth noting when remembering the HH tourney. Rhaegar was the better lance, but there's no way he way he was better with a sword that Arthur. And, not only is Jon the better sword, but he sits a horse as well as anyone in the castle. Sword + horse riding could be interpreted as evidence of AD+L=J.

The next three are all from Jon's third chapter.

The courtyard rang to the song of swords.

The opening paragraph of Jon III.

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

Jon thinking about his mother in the armory; the place swords are kept or made. So, Jon's mother + sword(s).

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky… but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

Jon emerges from the armory and the sun comes out. BftD/Long Night imagery perhaps. Then the Wall is described as "alive with light," just like Dawn is in the ToJ chapter. It's also described as "blue-white," a combination of blue and white. Perhaps like winter roses and Dawn.

The next three are from Jon's following chapter, Jon IV.

Jon was showing Dareon how best to deliver a sidestroke when the new recruit entered the practice yard. “Your feet should be farther apart,” he urged. “You don’t want to lose your balance. That’s good. Now pivot as you deliver the stroke, get all your weight behind the blade.”

Jon III and IV both begin with sword practice.

Life at Castle Black followed certain patterns; the mornings were for swordplay, the afternoons for work. The black brothers set new recruits to many different tasks, to learn where their skills lay. Jon cherished the rare afternoons when he was sent out with Ghost ranging at his side to bring back game for the Lord Commander’s table, but for every day spent hunting, he gave a dozen to Donal Noye in the armory, spinning the whetstone while the one-armed smith sharpened axes grown dull from use, or pumping the bellows as Noye hammered out a new sword.

Swordplay in the mornings for Jon, and most of his afternoons were spent in the armory. Again, armories are where swords and other weapons are stored or made.

“The Old Bear’s no fool,” Dareon observed. “You’re certain to be a builder, and Jon’s certain to be a ranger. He’s the best sword and the best rider among us, and his uncle was the First before he…” His voice trailed off awkwardly as he realized what he had almost said. - Jon V

Jon is the best sword, and the best rider. Arthur was certainly a sword, whether as a Dayne or a KG, and Lyanna was a fantastic rider.

I'll stop there, but also note that Jon stays in the armory when he becomes LC of the NW in ASoS. Again, the idea being that armories are places where weapons--like swords--are stored or forged.

[IceFire125]

J.Star, nice post!

GRRM can make any "alternatives" work, but will he now?  

Keep in mind that he does so at the peril of his past works.  He can spout "gardening writer" as long as he wants, but there are 5 books that's canon.  He has to supplant not just doubt, but workable narrative overview of the "why" that Jon's true parentage must be kept a secret.  This is in light of the many pages he had us to believe in all of his work ever since Maegor went on a rampage to secure his throne.  The thoughts implanted in young Aegon II's head by his Mother, that heir apparent, Rhaenyra, would put his head on a spike for the very reason he's born a boy.  The haunting images of Rhaegar's children at court, laying lifeless for the price of fealty, not only that, the king to be, looking away.  That same king, told his friend that he doesn't see Targaryen babes, but dragonspawn and all the guilt feelings Ned went through, with the culmination of feeling shame when he thought about Jon.  

If Ned knew that Arthur was the Father, he's inner monologue would reflect this, not just the association of a sword, but the constant forbearance of character that I, as a reader, points to Jon an able character like his Father, who does everything well.  He would be honored bound to resolve the misplaced hatred that his friend and king, Robert has placed (that Rhaegar took the fall for Arthur and the knight isn't be the greatest of all of the Kingsguard, but marred with dishonor).  His thoughts about Cat protecting the children of her body would be out of place in view of Cersei.  Because why would she feel threatened? His children are trueborn, and Jon, if it were AD+L, would be a bastard with no threat to the crown at all.  The "bastard shouldn't hurt princes" would also be out of place with AD+L, because we learned that Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen were bastards.  I mean this is early on in the series.  GRRM need to supplant all of it in the coming two books to make a believable narrative and not out of spite.  

Not only will it be a Red Herring for readers, but it would be a Red Herring in the thoughts of Ned, if you actually think about it.  It will only be resolved in 2 more books, but wait, it can't, Ned is dead.  All the clues and foreshadowing of RLJ is all for nothing and would play into the analogy GRRM always uses, "butler and the maid", that he can't change in midstream just to sike the readers.  He has to tell a story, above all.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This is when Mormont gives Jon the (bastard) sword, Longclaw. Upon receiving this magnificent sword, Jon kind of freaks out and thinks about his father. For Jon that's Ned, but the audience knows better by now. The dramatic irony marks this passage as worth paying attention to, I think. "Knowing" that Jon's father is really Rhaegar, can we make sense of this paragraph, does it fit? It's tricky because the Targaryens don't have any special swords anymore. Blackfyre and Dark Sister are long gone. But, Schmendrick came up with an interpretation I quite like a couple of years back. That the "swords" are a reference to the IT.

Now, let's try the same thing with AD+L=J. "Knowing" that Arthur is Jon's father, can we make sense of this paragraph, does it fit? I think the answer is obviously yes. Jon's internal struggle here is about his father and his swords, specifically his father's sword. That's quite compatible with Arthur being Jon's father.

Well done! Before I start--while you know I favor Arthur as Jon's father, no way on earth do I disagree that Rhaegar is still a strong option.

On the bolded--amen. Especially since Dawn, and only Dawn, is bestowed via both blood and worthiness in Martinlandia. 

As for the idea that the sword Jon longs for is the IT--maybe. But he longs for a "true greatsword"--not just a general sword. That specific wording seems to make it specific to: Jon wants a greatsword bestowed by his father via Jon's valor. A bestowal that will give Jon his father's name. Nothing Targaryen really fits that.  Not even the IT: it's been taken and fought over. 

Far as we know, Dawn is only bestowed when the Daynes deem another Dayne to be worthy of it.

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.” - Jon I

"I'm the better sword." It could be something on its own. But there's also something of a sword/lance dichotomy. Which might be worth noting when remembering the HH tourney. Rhaegar was the better lance, but there's no way he way he was better with a sword that Arthur.

It's a very short moment--but interesting. And so far, Jon has no Rhaegar-specific imagery around him. Dany does--sees herself in Rhaegar's armor. Sees Rhaegar in visions. Sees herself as Rhaegar. And, of course, dragons.

But Jon--the imagery around him is Stark specific (direwolves and longing for Winterfell and Night's Watching). And Dayne specific (seeing the Sword of the Morning).

Even Jon "armored in black ice with a red sword burning in his fist"--even that imagery predates the Valyrian Empire--let alone the Targaryens: The Red Sword of Heroes legend goes back to the Long Night. And the Black has been the color of the Night's Watch since then, too. So, not Targaryen specific.

So, as far as where Marrtin is going with this, it may come down to if he's going to stick with what's commonly known (Rhaegar took Lyanna) and access to Lyanna (which Rhaegar clearly had), or if he's going with the imagery and symbolism around Jon (and thus who he is becoming)--and access to Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

people mentioned their preferred, and/or most likely, alternatives to RLJ

I would like to clarify here: IF I believed anything else than RLJ,  Ned+Ashara would be merely personal preference because it would add another layer to Ned's personality and no small amount of tragedy to his marriage with Catelyn. AD+L fits better narratively, as you show above, but since we as readers never knew Arthur or Lyanna, their romance would be less satisfactory for me.

Alas, my preferences have nothing to do with GRRM's writing, so RLJ it is :-)

[Kingmonkey]

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Some disclaimers before I make a small case for AD+L=J: I believe RLJ. I do not believe AD+L=J. However, IF GRRM is pulling a grand prank on us, and RLJ is a red herring, then I do believe AD+L=J is the only alternative for a variety of reasons.

My support for S+L=J is similarly slender to yours for AD+L=J, but I'll continue to defend it. It's thin, but it does actually fit without timeline shenanigans etc. Solid evidence for it is lacking, but frankly so have the arguments against it been -- for example dismissing Benjen on the basis of a presumption that he was at Winterfell. AD+L is attractive in many ways, but S+L has the benefit of being the only non RLJ theory that comes with a solid answer for the question of why all the secrecy. 

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I said all that to say this: All of the XYJ essays are based upon the premise that RLJ is an intention red herring by GRRM, and ought to be evaluated through that lens. Now, I would argue that red herrings don't really work this way, since you can't mislead an audience that doesn't know it's being fooled. 

We should grant the fact that GRRM does like to let his readers make false assumptions, and that gives us a basis for an RLJ "red herring". However in this situation I'd expect to see a direct connection between the whole abduction story and the explanation for -- and secrecy surrounding -- Jon's parentage. From a narrative viewpoint, it all has to be part of the same story, just one that can me misinterpreted. If R+L≠J  then we're missing part of the story. Most, but not all, of the alternatives run into the rocks here. I'd say AD+L avoids the rocks but skirts close to them. We can certainly imagine that during Lyanna's abduction, she and Arthur fell in love. There's scope for that missing part of the story to be there. However we are still left with an awkward blank as to why the abduction took place, and that requires some more extended hypothetical missing story element.

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I'll stop there, but also note that Jon stays in the armory when he becomes LC of the NW in ASoS. Again, the idea being that armories are places where weapons--like swords--are stored or forged.

The whole Jon=Sword symbolism is, I'd agree, probably the most compelling part of the AD+L theory. However I'd like to look at that symbolism in a slightly different way.

Quote

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

The search for identity among the younger generation is a huge part of the ASOIAF story, arguably the main theme of the novels. Sansa's growth from victim to player, Arya's multiple identities, Bran's loss - discovery arc, Dany's "remember who you are". Jon's the Stark outsider, defined at the start of the novels by his sense of being apart. He can't fully identify himself as Ned's son, but wishes he could. That ties to his thoughts of Ice. He joins the watch and becomes part of a new family, and gains a sense of connection to that family he could never quite have as a Stark. He gives up any claim the sword that belongs to Daddy Stark, but he does get the sword that belongs to Daddy Night's Watch. He becomes the head of House Night's Watch in a way he feels he never could for House Stark. 

The Night's Watch oath gives a pretty solid explanation for Jon's sword imagery.. Jon's search for identity in joining the Night's watch requires him to say "I am the sword..." But what sword? Is it Dawn? Maybe, but not necessarily. "I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn". Well that gives us Dawn, but a stage removed. He is not the dawn, but the light that brings the dawn. That could be indicative of Jon's sojourn in the Night's Watch being his awakening, the thing that will bring him to Dawn. However the more direct sword connection is Lightbringer.

If Dawn is indeed Lightbringer, then AD+L is much more compelling than if Dawn and Lightbringer are separate swords. I'm inclined to think they are separate. Dawn is "pale as milkglass" (like the Other's bones and blades),  Lightbringer is the "red sword of heroes". It feels to me like there's a dichotomy at play here -- white vs. red, Others vs. R'hllor, cold vs. heat. Then there's Arthur's white cloak vs. Jon's black. 

[Ygrain]

50 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Even Jon "armored in black ice with a red sword burning in his fist"--even that imagery predates the Valyrian Empire--let alone the Targaryens: The Red Sword of Heroes legend goes back to the Long Night. And the Black has been the color of the Night's Watch since then, too. So, not Targaryen specific.

Not really true.

First, the Red Sword is not combined with black armour, that is not part of the legend. Second, while colour black belongs to NW, they generally don't wear full plate black armours. Third, there is no other character wearing black armour but Rhaegar.

 

54 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And so far, Jon has no Rhaegar-specific imagery around him. Dany does--sees herself in Rhaegar's armor.

Actually, the vision when she sees herself in Rhaegar's armour only has black armour, as well, so vision-wise, they are even:

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

 

 

 

[Ygrain]

Speaking of Dany's visions, I remembered this:

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

I don't recall, has this - rather disturbing - parallel been discussed? Because if it is intentional, it probably hints at Jon and Dany being adversaries.

[Sly Wren]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not really true.

First, the Red Sword is not combined with black armour, that is not part of the legend.

True--nor is it combined with Rhaegar or the Targaryens in any way.

Plus--where did Rhaegar come up with the need for the black armor anyway? I looked quickly, but couldn't find reference to other Targs wearing it--by any chance do you have different info?

The reason for the questioning: I'm wondering if Rhaegar got the idea for the armor from old books or prophecies--which would likely predate the Targaryens.

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Second, while colour black belongs to NW, they generally don't wear full plate black armours.

Right--but the Wall is described as black ice--at night, at least. 

So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice. Dance, Jon III

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors. Dance, Jon XI

And Jon's not in "black armor" in that dream--he's "armored in black ice"--in the same book where we've been told twice that the Wall (vastly predating the Targs) is sometimes black ice. So, seems like more a reference to the Wall than to any general armor.

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Third, there is no other character wearing black armour but Rhaegar.

Right--that's what I found, too. Which again raises the question: why? Where did Rhaegar get the idea for that distinctive armor? If it's from an ancient prophecy (as must be a possible answer), then he'd be following old prophecies, even trying to bring them about.

Which could make Rhaegar just a copy-cat--and Jon the real, older, non-Targaryen deal. The Targs are interlopers in Westeros--parvenues--who believe (in Rhaegar's case) that they have a great destiny. No evidence yet that they are right about any of that.

The Daynes and Starks are as old as it gets. We need more info--but for now, nothing in that "red sword black ice" moment is Targaryen-specific. But the direwolves are Stark-specific. And the Sword of the Morning is Dayne-specific.

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Actually, the vision when she sees herself in Rhaegar's armour only has black armour, as well, so vision-wise, they are even:

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

True--though she sees Rhaegar and then herself in actual armor--not black ice.

And she also sees Rhaegar look at her when talking about needing "one more"--No way around it: Dany's much more closely aligned in the books to Rhaegar than Jon is. 

[Ygrain]

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

True--nor is it combined with Rhaegar or the Targaryens in any way.

And? Cannot a person be Targaryen and AA at the same time? Especially when this is basically what their prophecy says.

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Plus--where did Rhaegar come up with the need for the black armor anyway? I looked quickly, but couldn't find reference to other Targs wearing it--by any chance do you have different info?

The reason for the questioning: I'm wondering if Rhaegar got the idea for the armor from old books or prophecies--which would likely predate the Targaryens

I don't. It is his family colour, perhaps appealing to him due to his melancholy, but it is true that there might be a deeper meaning to it, one we haven't seen yet.

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Right--but the Wall is described as black ice--at night, at least. 

So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice. Dance, Jon III

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors. Dance, Jon XI

And Jon's not in "black armor" in that dream--he's "armored in black ice"--in the same book where we've been told twice that the Wall (vastly predating the Targs) is sometimes black ice. So, seems like more a reference to the Wall than to any general armor.

Well, but a person armoured in black ice looks like a person in black armour, right?

A good catch with the Wall being of the same  material, though - a lot of very interesting connections and possibilities there.

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Right--that's what I found, too. Which again raises the question: why? Where did Rhaegar get the idea for that distinctive armor? If it's from an ancient prophecy (as must be a possible answer), then he'd be following old prophecies, even trying to bring them about.

Which could make Rhaegar just a copy-cat--and Jon the real, older, non-Targaryen deal. The Targs are interlopers in Westeros--parvenues--who believe (in Rhaegar's case) that they have a great destiny.

You're imposing some really unnecessary limitations here - who says that major things happen only in Westeros? Besides, Targaryens came from some ancestors, as well, and given Dany's visions of ancestors with gemstone eyes, it seems that they might actually be the blood of those ancient emperors.

 

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

No evidence yet that they are right about any of that.

No evidence? The prophet was right on at least one other occasion, and the prophecy was confirmed from another source (GoHH). That pretty much hints at some substance to the prophecy.

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

The Daynes and Starks are as old as it gets. We need more info--but for now, nothing in that "red sword black ice" moment is Targaryen-specific. But the direwolves are Stark-specific. And the Sword of the Morning is Dayne-specific.

I think it is a huge mistake to insist that red sword and black ice armour must necessarily go together, especially when we have never seen them together elsewhere.

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

True--though she sees Rhaegar and then herself in actual armor--not black ice.

See above - the imagery is the same.

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And she also sees Rhaegar look at her when talking about needing "one more"--No way around it: Dany's much more closely aligned in the books to Rhaegar than Jon is. 

That I am not denying. I was only arguing that Jon is not entirely lacking.

[IceFire125]

54 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And she also sees Rhaegar look at her when talking about needing "one more"--No way around it: Dany's much more closely aligned in the books to Rhaegar than Jon is. 

That's convenient of you.  If GRRM gave anything more of a closely aligned hints of Rhaegar to Jon links, then there won't be a mystery for us would we? think about it.

There are so many hints alluding to Jon's royal Targaryen blood, affinity with Fire and glimpses of dragons.  Anything more would be like GRRM plainly slapping our face with R+L=J.

 

[The Twinslayer]

5 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

A couple of pages back a few people mentioned their preferred, and/or most likely, alternatives to RLJ. I was a bit surprised that AD+L=J wasn't almost unanimous. Although I generally agree with the criticisms mentioned by @Kingmonkey and @SFDanny, I still think it presents the strongest alternative case on all fronts. At least cumulatively, if not individually.

Some disclaimers before I make a small case for AD+L=J: I believe RLJ. I do not believe AD+L=J. However, IF GRRM is pulling a grand prank on us, and RLJ is a red herring, then I do believe AD+L=J is the only alternative for a variety of reasons. Also, despite a few people writing posts and essays in favor of AD+L=J, I'm not sure the best, or rather the most complete, case has been put forward. At least not that I know of. I'll post some stuff below that I think has been missed. Again, at least as far as I know. However, please keep in mind that I am, or at least may be, aware that alternative explanations and/or interpretations exist for evidence I list.

Since I'm posting this, I'm obviously open to discussion, answering questions, clarifications, etc. However, I'm not especially invested in this idea, which means I'm not overly enthusiastic about defending it. And I've probably shortchanged some of my arguments by limiting most of my research to AGoT. Because again, I don't even believe in AD+L=J. I believe RLJ. Please keep all of that in mind as you're reading. The gist of my argument is that, regardless of how certain theories have been evaluated and judged, AD+L=J is the only real alternative.

Before diving into some of the reasons why I think AD+L=J is the strongest alternative, really the only possible alternative in my mind, I want to point out the basis for these recent R+L≠J cases. I've been a member of these forums for about 4.5 years now. As I recall it now, the bulk of R+L≠J arguments were based on a lack of evidence. In other words, the evidence for RLJ wasn't very convincing. On the contrary, the case for RLJ is very strong, to say the least. A point which is rarely contested these days. Thanks in part, I think, to the many RLJ regulars who answered the call over the years.

I said all that to say this: All of the XYJ essays are based upon the premise that RLJ is an intention red herring by GRRM, and ought to be evaluated through that lens. Now, I would argue that red herrings don't really work this way, since you can't mislead an audience that doesn't know it's being fooled. And for so long, so much of the audience was blissfully unaware of RLJ. Anyway... leaving all that aside, assuming that RLJ is a red herring--and despite what I just got done saying, it really has to be in order for R+L≠J to work--we might have good reason to answer some of the AD+L=J criticisms mentioned. About the lack of positive evidence, specifically something between Arthur and Lyanna.

Because RLJ would be a non-traditional red herring, and really constitute a fake out on a grand scale, we would have to assume GRRM would be going "all in" in his attempt to deceive the more skilled reader who susses out RLJ. Which would explain the lack of positive evidence for AD+L=J. And IMO, would mean that we shouldn't put a big emphasis on the aforementioned "positive evidence." So it would mean that GRRM couldn't exactly tell us that Lyanna met Arthur Dayne and was enamored with Dawn. But, he could lay the groundwork for such a scenario by repeatedly showing us that she was interested in swords. Because if you're a girl who is interested in swords, there's a fair chance you'd be impressed by Dawn. And I suppose one could even understand this interest in "swords" as a metaphor for an interest in someone whose house has a sword on its sigil. Maybe.

Right now I want to address some of the reasons why AD+L=J is really the best alternative. Some are basic, some are narrative, others are meta-narrative.

It fits in the timeline. That's big. Nothing has to fudged, or chucked out the window altogether.

Dawn. A special sword that seems destined to play a part in the series. In fact, it may be the legendary Lightbringer, or the original Stark family sword, Ice. Or both!

Arthur Dayne appears to be an homage to Arthurian legend--As is the ToJ, btw. Perhaps meant to emphasize the Arthurian theme here.--combining King Arthur and Sir Lancelot. Arthur Dayne is not the king, but his name is Arthur and he has a very special, unique sword. Plus, he's meant to be the finest knight of his day. Well, Lancelot was also famous for stealing a lady who didn't belong to him.

Jonny Sword. The sword symbolism/theme with Jon. Even better if we're talking about Lightbringer. After all, it's not a large stretch that Dawn was the original LB. If you're interested in this line of inquiry I'd recommend reading @Schmendrick's R+L=LB essays. Lots of Jon-sword stuff. For AD+L=J, the key takeaway from the symbolism/theme of Jon and swords is the Dayne sigil, which features a sword and falling star. Now, because there is also a star, it's not as clear cut as when we say that lion symbolism means Lannisters, dragons for Targaryens and so on. But, if we're meant to think of sword symbolism the same way we do with lions and dragons, then I'm assuming that swords means Dayne. Alternatively, KGs are called "white swords" repeatedly throughout the series.

A bit further out there, but based on the similar wording of the LB and Dawn origin stories*, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the sword and star on the Dayne sigil are representative of a man and woman. I'm sure we can figure out which is which. In other words, "sword" could symbolically refer to a male Dayne. This last part is a bit crackpot, but many moons ago I wondered if star:Stark::day:Dayne, which might play into that idea.

*(LB was forged in Nissa Nissa's heart, Dawn was forged from the heart of a falling star.)

Now, with that in mind, I'd ask everyone to (re)consider a few passages through the lens of AD+L=J. Some of them are more familiar than others.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.” - AGoT, Arya I

This is popular with the RLJ crowd. Most of us take this to mean that Jon is trueborn since we know Joff is a bastard. Why does GRRM choose "trueborn sword" here? Is GRRM telling us Jon is a bastard sword Dayne?

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man’s sword he dreamt of… - AGot, Jon VIII

This is when Mormont gives Jon the (bastard) sword, Longclaw. Upon receiving this magnificent sword, Jon kind of freaks out and thinks about his father. For Jon that's Ned, but the audience knows better by now. The dramatic irony marks this passage as worth paying attention to, I think. "Knowing" that Jon's father is really Rhaegar, can we make sense of this paragraph, does it fit? It's tricky because the Targaryens don't have any special swords anymore. Blackfyre and Dark Sister are long gone. But, Schmendrick came up with an interpretation I quite like a couple of years back. That the "swords" are a reference to the IT.

Now, let's try the same thing with AD+L=J. "Knowing" that Arthur is Jon's father, can we make sense of this paragraph, does it fit? I think the answer is obviously yes. Jon's internal struggle here is about his father and his swords, specifically his father's sword. That's quite compatible with Arthur being Jon's father.

I'll post a few other passages from AGoT that stood out to me as possible evidence for the AD+L=J argument. They're interpretations of course, but I don't think any of them "interpret" more than normal. Nor do I think they are very convincing. Especially individually.

[Ned] lifted the greatsword high above his head.
Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. - Bran I

A greatsword, like Dawn, in the last sentence of one paragraph, and then the Jon is described as a bastard in the first sentence of a new paragraph. Meh. This barely caught my eye. But it's a possible connection between "greatsword" "bastard" "Jon." It gets better.

Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.” - Jon I

"I'm the better sword." It could be something on its own. But there's also something of a sword/lance dichotomy. Which might be worth noting when remembering the HH tourney. Rhaegar was the better lance, but there's no way he way he was better with a sword that Arthur. And, not only is Jon the better sword, but he sits a horse as well as anyone in the castle. Sword + horse riding could be interpreted as evidence of AD+L=J.

The next three are all from Jon's third chapter.

The courtyard rang to the song of swords.

The opening paragraph of Jon III.

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

Jon thinking about his mother in the armory; the place swords are kept or made. So, Jon's mother + sword(s).

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky… but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

Jon emerges from the armory and the sun comes out. BftD/Long Night imagery perhaps. Then the Wall is described as "alive with light," just like Dawn is in the ToJ chapter. It's also described as "blue-white," a combination of blue and white. Perhaps like winter roses and Dawn.

The next three are from Jon's following chapter, Jon IV.

Jon was showing Dareon how best to deliver a sidestroke when the new recruit entered the practice yard. “Your feet should be farther apart,” he urged. “You don’t want to lose your balance. That’s good. Now pivot as you deliver the stroke, get all your weight behind the blade.”

Jon III and IV both begin with sword practice.

Life at Castle Black followed certain patterns; the mornings were for swordplay, the afternoons for work. The black brothers set new recruits to many different tasks, to learn where their skills lay. Jon cherished the rare afternoons when he was sent out with Ghost ranging at his side to bring back game for the Lord Commander’s table, but for every day spent hunting, he gave a dozen to Donal Noye in the armory, spinning the whetstone while the one-armed smith sharpened axes grown dull from use, or pumping the bellows as Noye hammered out a new sword.

Swordplay in the mornings for Jon, and most of his afternoons were spent in the armory. Again, armories are where swords and other weapons are stored or made.

“The Old Bear’s no fool,” Dareon observed. “You’re certain to be a builder, and Jon’s certain to be a ranger. He’s the best sword and the best rider among us, and his uncle was the First before he…” His voice trailed off awkwardly as he realized what he had almost said. - Jon V

Jon is the best sword, and the best rider. Arthur was certainly a sword, whether as a Dayne or a KG, and Lyanna was a fantastic rider.

I'll stop there, but also note that Jon stays in the armory when he becomes LC of the NW in ASoS. Again, the idea being that armories are places where weapons--like swords--are stored or forged.

This is intriguing.  Like you, I believe that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna.  But I am also convinced that the most plausible alternative -- and one that may turn out to be true -- is that Ned and Ashara are his parents as laid out in the thread I have linked below.  

Most of the evidence you set out for Arthur Dayne being the father works just as well for Ashara being the mother, since you rely on symbolism that relates mostly to House Dayne rather than to Arthur himself and because we have this early quote from Arya to Jon, referencing that Joffrey includes the Lannister lion on his surcoat:  "The woman is important too."  On this thread, we take that to be a reference to the fact that Jon's Stark looks come from his mother rather than his father.  But it could mean that Jon's Dayne heritage is as important as his Stark heritage. 

The biggest objection to N+A=J is that the timeline supposedly does not fit.  I am convinced that the timeline does fit.  The timeline objection assumes that the N+A=J theory is based on the premise that Jon was conceived at the Harrenhal tournament, making him 2 years older than Ned claims him to be.  But that is not a premise of N+A=J.  The premise of N+A=J is that Ned and Ashara met up and conceived Jon 9 months before his birth.  It does not matter when Jon was born -- if he was born 3 months before the Sack, then Ned and Ashara had an encounter 12 months before the Sack.  If he was born 1 month after the Sack, then Ned and Ashara had an encounter 8 months before the Sack, etc.  All that is required for such a meeting is that both Ned and Ashara were mobile during the Rebellion.  We know Ned was.  And we know that Ashara may have spent some time with Elia on Dragonstone or King's Landing; that she was at Harrenhal at least during the False Spring; and that they have horses and ships at Starfall, such that she wasn't nailed to the floor there.  We also know that after 14 years of marriage to Ned, Catelyn believes that he was in a position to meet up with Ashara at the right time.  And Cersei thinks so, too.  So, like Catelyn going from Riverrun to Bitterbridge during the war of five kings, if GRRM writes that there was a Ned/Ashara meeting 9 months before Jon's birth (whenever that was), it will be very credible writing. 

The main advantage the Ned/Ashara version has over the Arthur/Lyanna theory is that it answers a lot of questions that A+L cannot -- if you add in a secret marriage (or perhaps even just a broken betrothal) between Ned and Ashara.  For example, why does Ned conceal the identity of Jon's mother?  Because he broke his vows to Ashara when he married Catelyn.

It also has an explanation for Lyanna's bed of blood, if Young Griff is Lyanna's child and Ashara (Lemore) is looking after him.  Just as Gilly left her own child to hide Mance's baby, Ashara left Jon to look after Young Griff. 

And it explains the "royal" imagery surrounding Jon.  If he is Ned's trueborn son by Ashara, then Jon is the rightful heir to the throne of the North, not Robb. 

The only thing the N+A=J theory does not explain is what happened to Wylla's baby.  It is a little bothersome that Ned Dayne mentions that he and Jon are milkbrothers but does not mention that they have another milk brother or sister -- who must be older than Jon -- out there somewhere.  But none of the other theories, including R+L=J, offer an explanation for that. 

Finally, N+A=J gives Jon a special but secret destiny.  If Dawn is lightbringer, then Jon, as the Sword of the Morning, can play the role of Azor Ahai reborn. 

EDIT:  As an aside, I'll add that N+A=J does not suggest that R+L=J is a red herring (although R+L=J does suggest that N+A=J is a red herring).  It simply suggests that R+L=J is a separate mystery.  N+A=J answers the question:  "who is Jon Snow's mother."  R+L=J tries to answer a completely different question, which is "who is Lyanna Stark's child." 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144562-jon-is-the-trueborn-son-of-ned-and-ashara/&page=1

 

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And? Cannot a person be Targaryen and AA at the same time? Especially when this is basically what their prophecy says.

But the AA prophecy predates the Targs. And so far Mel clearly thinks it applies to Stannis. And so far in the novels, nothing says that chasing prophecies is a good idea.

Bottom line: just because the Targs--and specifically Rhaegar and Aemon--think that their family will bring the savior in no way shape or form suggests that they will. The prophecy and story existed before they did. They chose to embrace it. Just as Stannis and Mel do. Thus, what the are doing is not Targ specific. It's prophecy specific, no?

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I don't. It is his family colour, perhaps appealing to him due to his melancholy, but it is true that there might be a deeper meaning to it, one we haven't seen yet.

Agreed--very possible. But the point holds: just because Jon sees himself in black ice does not mean he's a Targ.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Well, but a person armoured in black ice looks like a person in black armour, right?

Right--but I can't find a place in the novels where Rhaegar's armor is described as ice.

You gave the quote above about Dany's dream and the Usurpers being armored in ice. But in that dream--it's actually ice--like Jon sees himself in on the Wall.

And per your observation re: Dany and Jon potentially being adversaries--I agree. I think that outcome is very likely.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

A good catch with the Wall being of the same  material, though - a lot of very interesting connections and possibilities there.

Thanks! Especially given the oath--all of the "I am" statements. And the stuff about as long as the Watch holds true, the Wall will hold. Would fit the image of Jon being armored in ice--tied to the ancient Wall.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

You're imposing some really unnecessary limitations here - who says that major things happen only in Westeros?

Not trying to argue that. Only that the Targs are innately interlopers in Westeros--and the newest of them. Whereas both the Starks and the Daynes have an ancient history of being protectors of the people in some form--the Starks with the Wall and the Daynes with the Sword of the Morning (and some of the other stuff with the stony Dornish). Believing that the "solution" would come from the protectors instead of the conquers--that seems. . . .not unreasonable.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Besides, Targaryens came from some ancestors, as well, and given Dany's visions of ancestors with gemstone eyes, it seems that they might actually be the blood of those ancient emperors.

Agreed. I've also thought that since they don't just have the gemstone eyes but also the white sword (in the same book where we first see that sword in Arthur's hands) that it might be telling us that Dany is part Dayne.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I think it is a huge mistake to insist that red sword and black ice armour must necessarily go together, especially when we have never seen them together elsewhere.

Fair enough--but given that we never see Rhaegar's armor described as ice--seems like Jon's armor is much more likely about the Wall, not Rhaegar.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

That I am not denying. I was only arguing that Jon is not entirely lacking.

"Entirely?" no--but he is lacking anything as Targ-specific as Dany--the armor is at best equivocal. Especially since the Wall is described as black ice twice in the same novel before Jon has that vision--also in the same novel.

The direwolves and the Sword of the Morning are not equivocal.

[Sly Wren]

38 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

That's convenient of you.  If GRRM gave anything more of a closely aligned hints of Rhaegar to Jon links, then there won't be a mystery for us would we? think about it.

The point: at this point in the novels, he's given us nothing to specifically tie Jon to Rhaegar. Instead, Martin has stressed Dany's ties to Rhaegar while giving her visions asking her to remember who she is. This should at least give us pause. Martin seems plenty skilled enough to make some ties without giving it all away.

38 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

There are so many hints alluding to 1. Jon's royal Targaryen blood, 2. affinity with Fire and 3. glimpses of dragons.  Anything more would be like GRRM plainly slapping our face with R+L=J.

1. I agree that there are many hints to Jon's potential kingship. But all of them fit just as well and often better (in the case of Mormont's raven) with Jon's being an ancient King of Winter or King in the North. Nothing in those hints requires him to be an interloping Targaryen.

2. His affinity with fire is nowhere near what Dany's is. And given that he's at the Wall and facing the Others and Wights, liking the heat of fire--that's what everyone there likes. That's not affinity with fire--that's pure survival. Not remotely like Dany liking scalding water or enjoying walking into a funeral pyre.

3. As for the "glimpses of dragons"--am I correct in assuming you mean this passage? If not, please correct me:

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. "If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla's boy, not your monster. A word in the king's ear would have been the end of it." And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason. "Why let it happen if she knew?" Dance, Jon VIII

Before Jon says this, he thinks of or hears of dragons and sacrifice 3 times in his first Dance POV, once in his 2nd POV, and right before (literally) he thinks this.

That's the "again"--Jon keeps hearing about this sacrifice to gain a dragon. Which is why he swapped Monster with Mance's baby--a point he brings up in the same paragraph. He's being reminded of the danger that Mel and Stannis pose in their desire for a dragon. Mel is still on her "kings and dragons" kick. Thus, "dragons again,"

That's not a vision of dragons--that's fear for babies and himself. So far in the novels, we have no evidence at all that Jon has dragon dreams. Lots of wolf dreams--they're getting stronger and more frequent. No dragons. We've seen Dany's dragon dreams. Jon's had nothing even close to that. Nothing.

[IceFire125]

5 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Jon's had nothing even close to that. Nothing.

I beg to differ.  Your supposed bias is that you want GRRM to clearly put Jon linking to dragons directly, like in plain black and white, and until then you will be satisfied?  I argued that there's enough hinted texts that alludes to Jon having Targaryen blood.   If we go with Targaryen blood associated with dreams of dragons, I can say that Jon had those as well.

“I have never seen a dragon.”

“No one has. The last dragons died a hundred years ago or more. But this was before that.”
“Queen Alysanne, you say?”
“Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate.”
“If she was so good, she should have torn that Wall down.”
No, he thought. The Wall protects the realm. From the Others … and from you and your kind as well, sweetling. “I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”
“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.
“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”
“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t …”
“No? Never?” Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

Anything more obvious than the hints he wrote in the current five books will be a blatant reveal in my opinion.

He said publicly that the revelation will be in TWOW, the so-called, "the sixth book."  I believe he will also save that when Jon actually ride a dragon during the Great Council, mirroring the time he was elected at Castle Black (just as Egg becoming Aegon V, who was mistaken as a stableboy, also to which Jon refer to himself as one), this will be the final and big revelation for lords of Westeros to see (for casual readers as well) and acknowledge him as a Targaryen.

[Wrl6199]

1 minute ago, IceFire125 said:

I beg to differ.  Your supposed bias is that you want GRRM to clearly put Jon linking to dragons directly, like in plain black and white, and until then you will be satisfied?  I argued that there's enough hinted texts that alludes to Jon having Targaryen blood.   If we go with Targaryen blood associated with dreams of dragons, I can say that Jon had those as well.

“I have never seen a dragon.”

“No one has. The last dragons died a hundred years ago or more. But this was before that.”
“Queen Alysanne, you say?”
“Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate.”
“If she was so good, she should have torn that Wall down.”
No, he thought. The Wall protects the realm. From the Others … and from you and your kind as well, sweetling. “I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”
“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.
“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”
“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t …”
“No? Never?” Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

Anything more obvious than the hints he wrote in the current five books will be a blatant reveal in my opinion.

He said publicly that the revelation will be in TWOW, the so-called, "the sixth book."  I believe he will also save that when Jon actually ride a dragon during the Great Council, mirroring the time he was elected at Castle Black (just as Egg becoming Aegon V, who was mistaken as a stableboy, also to which Jon refer to himself as one), this will be the final and big revelation for lords of Westeros to see (for casual readers as well) and acknowledge him as a Targaryen.

Wait are you one of those guys who believe in A + J=T . Why did you put in the quote where tyrion talks about having a dragon of his own. Just curios. But yeah i feel like most of the fans who dint believes in it for stupid reasons like for example one guy said because he dint have silver hair. Speaking of which i wonder what his father thought of him setting their home on fire. Guess it couldn't make him hate tyrion more then he already dues. Still thought i dint see how that conversation revealed anything about jon. I mean i get how it has to do with tyrion liking dragons. Seems like its just tyrion trying to fuck with jon. Nothing more. I mean his horror might have hinted that he wanted to kill his family.

[IceFire125]

2 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Wait are you one of those guys who believe in A + J=T . Why did you put in the quote where tyrion talks about having a dragon of his own. Just curios. But yeah i feel like most of the fans who dint believes in it for stupid reasons like for example one guy said because he dint have silver hair. Speaking of which i wonder what his father thought of him setting their home on fire. Guess it couldn't make him hate tyrion more then he already dues. Still thought i dint see how that conversation revealed anything about jon. I mean i get how it has to do with tyrion liking dragons. Seems like its just tyrion trying to fuck with jon. Nothing more. I mean his horror might have hinted that he wanted to kill his family.

AJT may very well turned out to be true.

However, the example above that I showed is that Jon also had dragon dreams.  He admitted it.

 

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, IceFire125 said:

I beg to differ.  Your supposed bias is that you want GRRM to clearly put Jon linking to dragons directly, like in plain black and white, and until then you will be satisfied? 

No--just anything that actually suggests Jon has had a dragon dream would do. So far, all the evidence says he has had nothing of the sort.

We do have him thinking of ice dragons. And seeing himself reflected in the Wall--though I strongly suspect that the Others are the ice dragons, so that's a whole other convo.

1 hour ago, IceFire125 said:

No, he thought. The Wall protects the realm. From the Others … and from you and your kind as well, sweetling. “I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

Note that Jon never thinks that he, too, dreams of dragons. Or feels affinity with dreaming of dragons. Here or anywhere else. Martin's put us in Jon's dreams again and again--no dragons. If he's dreaming of dragons, he's giving us no clue of it.

1 hour ago, IceFire125 said:

Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”
“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t …”
“No? Never?” Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

Anything more obvious than the hints he wrote in the current five books will be a blatant reveal in my opinion.

Wait--how is this obvious of anything about Jon? It tells us that Tyrion assumes that Jon dreams the same thing--of killing his relatives (father and sister) with dragon fire. Jon's rightly horrified.

But given that Tyrion says all this in his second POV in Game and Jon NEVER has a dragon dream through the end of Dance--all this shows is that Tyrion is wrong. Tyrion's dreams of having a dragon and killing his relatives are specific to Tyrion.

All it does potentially support is the argument that Tyrion is a Targaryen. And the fact that Tyrion's relationship with his family is really, really toxic.

ETA: Jon does dream of killing Ned as a wight and of beheading Robb. But never with dragon fire.  And they aren't fantasies as they seem to be with Tyrion--those dreams are horrors. And no dragons.

54 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

However, the example above that I showed is that Jon also had dragon dreams.  He admitted it.

Wait--where? Jon denies fantasizing about burning his relatives alive with dragonfire--Tyrion thinks he's lying. But that in no way proves that Tyrion is right.

The fact that we never see Jon dream of dragons (or about burning his relatives with dragon fire) despite all of the time we spend in his thoughts and dreams tells us that Tyrion is wrong. 

[Shmedricko]

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

3. As for the "glimpses of dragons"--am I correct in assuming you mean this passage? If not, please correct me:

I think the strength of that passage as a clue to Jon having Targaryen blood comes from the fact that there is a Daenerys chapter which contains almost the exact same wording. Compare:

Quote

And the dragons, what am I to do with them? "Drogon," she whispered softly, "where are you?" For a moment she could almost see him sweeping across the sky, his black wings swallowing the stars. (Daenerys III, ADWD 16)

Quote

"Kings and dragons."

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. (Jon VIII, ADWD 39)

The structure at the beginning is identical: "For a moment she/Jon could almost see him/them." Plus the focus on "his black wings"/"their dark wings" shortly after. Whether these are actually dragon visions/daydreams or not, the similar language Martin has employed here cannot be ignored.

[IceFire125]

1 hour ago, Shmedricko said:

I think the strength of that passage as a clue to Jon having Targaryen blood comes from the fact that there is a Daenerys chapter which contains almost the exact same wording. Compare:

The structure at the beginning is identical: "For a moment she/Jon could almost see him/them." Plus the focus on "his black wings"/"their dark wings" shortly after. Whether these are actually dragon visions/daydreams or not, the similar language Martin has employed here cannot be ignored.

They love to use GRRM's wordplay, echoes, etc on other subjects, but when it comes to pointing to Jon being Targaryen blooded and all the properties that goes along with that house, symbolism and significance, it's conveniently ignored. 

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he’d ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known.

The girl pulled the rough cotton tunic over Dany’s head and helped her into the tub. The water was scalding hot, but Daenerys did not flinch or cry out. She liked the heat. It made her feel clean. Besides, her brother had often told her that it was never too hot for a Targaryen. “Ours is the house of the dragon,” he would say. “The fire is in our blood.”