Spattered and Caked. Big Walder Killed Little Walder

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I've been discussing this topic on another thread, not totally relevant to the other thread's OP. So I thought it was a good idea to move it to a new thread. From the title of the thread you can see that I believe Big Walder killed Little Walder. I think BW stabbed (probably with a dagger) LW.

Here is the text from Theon I, DwD from when Hosteen brings in LW's body to Roose Bolton's decision to send out the Freys and Manderlys. 

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The doors of the Great Hall opened with a crash.

A cold wind came swirling through, and a cloud of ice crystals sparkled blue-white in the air. Through it strode Ser Hosteen Frey, caked with snow to the waist, a body in his arms. All along the benches men put down their cups and spoons to turn and gape at the grisly spectacle. The hall grew quiet.

Another murder.

Snow slid from Ser Hosteen's cloaks as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew—Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood.

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen's arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

"My brother Merrett's son." Hosteen Frey lowered the body to the floor before the dais. "Butchered like a hog and shoved beneath a snowbank. A boy. "

Little Walder, thought Theon. The big one. He glanced at Rowan. There are six of them, he remembered. Any of them could have done this. But the washerwoman felt his eyes. "This was no work of ours," she said.

"Be quiet," Abel warned her.

Lord Ramsay descended from the dais to the dead boy. His father rose more slowly, pale-eyed, still-faced, solemn. "This was foul work." For once Roose Bolton's voice was loud enough to carry. "Where was the body found?"

"Under that ruined keep, my lord," replied Big Walder. "The one with the old gargoyles." The boy's gloves were caked with his cousin's blood. "I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver."

"What man?" Ramsay demanded. "Give me his name. Point him out to me, boy, and I will make you a cloak of his skin."

"He never said, my lord. Only that he won the coin at dice." The Frey boy hesitated. "It was some White Harbor men who taught dice. I couldn't say which ones, but it was them."

"My lord," boomed Hosteen Frey. "We know the man who did this. Killed this boy and all the rest. Not by his own hand, no. He is too fat and craven to do his own killing. But by his word." He turned to Wyman Manderly. "Do you deny it?"

The Lord of White Harbor bit a sausage in half. "I confess …" He wiped the grease from his lips with his sleeve. "… I confess that I know little of this poor boy. Lord Ramsay's squire, was he not? How old was the lad?"

"Nine, on his last nameday."

"So young," said Wyman Manderly. "Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey."

Ser Hosteen slammed his foot into the tabletop, knocking it off its trestles, back into Lord Wyman's swollen belly. Cups and platters flew, sausages scattered everywhere, and a dozen Manderly men came cursing to their feet. Some grabbed up knives, platters, flagons, anything that might serve as a weapon.

Ser Hosteen Frey ripped his longsword from its scabbard and leapt toward Wyman Manderly. The Lord of White Harbor tried to jerk away, but the tabletop pinned him to his chair. The blade slashed through three of his four chins in a spray of bright red blood. Lady Walda gave a shriek and clutched at her lord husband's arm. "Stop," Roose Bolton shouted. "Stop this madness. " His own men rushed forward as the Manderlys vaulted over the benches to get at the Freys. One lunged at Ser Hosteen with a dagger, but the big knight pivoted and took his arm off at the shoulder. Lord Wyman pushed to his feet, only to collapse. Old Lord Locke was shouting for a maester as Manderly flopped on the floor like a clubbed walrus in a spreading pool of blood. Around him dogs fought over sausages. It took two score Dreadfort spearmen to part the combatants and put an end to the carnage. By that time six White Harbor men and two Freys lay dead upon the floor. A dozen more were wounded and one of the Bastard's Boys, Luton, was dying noisily, crying for his mother as he tried to shove a fistful of slimy entrails back through a gaping belly wound. Lord Ramsay silenced him, yanking a spear from one of Steelshanks's men and driving it down through Luton's chest. Even then the rafters still rang with shouts and prayers and curses, the shrieks of terrified horses and the growls of Ramsay's bitches. Steelshanks Walton had to slam the butt of his spear against the floor a dozen times before the hall quieted enough for Roose Bolton to be heard.

"I see you all want blood," the Lord of the Dreadfort said. Maester Rhodry stood beside him, a raven on his arm. The bird's black plumage shone like coal oil in the torchlight. Wet, Theon realized. And in his lordship's hand, a parchment. That will be wet as well. Dark wings, dark words. "Rather than use our swords upon each other, you might try them on Lord Stannis."

Lord Bolton unrolled the parchment. "His host lies not three days' ride from here, snowbound and starving, and I for one am tired of waiting on his pleasure. Ser Hosteen, assemble your knights and men-at-arms by the main gates. As you are so eager for battle, you shall strike our first blow. Lord Wyman, gather your White Harbor men by the east gate. They shall go forth as well."

Hosteen Frey's sword was red almost to the hilt. Blood spatters speckled his cheeks like freckles. He lowered his blade and said, "As my lord commands. But after I deliver you the head of Stannis Baratheon, I mean to finish hacking off Lord Lard's."

Four White Harbor knights had formed a ring around Lord Wyman, as Maester Medrick labored over him to staunch his bleeding. "First you must needs come through us, ser," said the eldest of them, a hard-faced greybeard whose bloodstained surcoat showed three silvery mermaids upon a violet field.

"Gladly. One at a time or all at once, it makes no matter."

"Enough, " roared Lord Ramsay, brandishing his bloody spear.

"Another threat, and I'll gut you all myself. My lord father has spoken!

Save your wroth for the pretender Stannis."

Hosteen rolls in with Little Walder. LW is frozen, George describes the body as "armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood". From this, as well as "snow slid from Ser Hosteen's cloaks", we can say that Hosteen picked up the body and brought it into the hall as soon as he found it (or was told about it).

Big Walder is seen with "his chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood" and "gloves caked with his cousin's blood". There has been a lot of discussion about the phrase "spattered with blood". George uses "blood spatters and spattered with blood" 15 times throughout the first 5 books. Keep in mind, dictionary.com defines spatter as: to scatter or dash in small particles or drops. Here are Goerge's uses of the phrase:

GoT, Dany IV:

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Drops of his blood had spattered the beautiful sandsilk cloak. Dany clutched the soft cloth to her cheek and sat cross-legged on her sleeping mats.

This was following Dany slapping Visery's in the face with a chain of bronze medallions.

GoT, Dany VII:

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All the while the man atop the lamb girl continued to plunge in and out of her, so intent on his pleasure that he seemed unaware of what was going on around him. Ser Jorah dismounted and wrenched him off with a mailed hand. The Dothraki went sprawling in the mud, bounced up with a knife in hand, and died with Aggo's arrow through his throat. Mormont pulled the girl off the pile of corpses and wrapped her in his blood-spattered cloak. He led her across the road to Dany. "What do you want done with her?"

Another instance of a cloak, blood spattered because of an arrow through the throat of a man standing close to Jorah. 

GoT, Dany VIII:

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Mirri Maz Duur's voice rose to a high, ululating wail that sent a shiver down Dany's back. Some of the Dothraki began to mutter and back away. The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving.

This blood is from the horse that MMD sliced the neck of here: 

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It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, its blade covered with ancient glyphs. The maegi drew it across the stallion’s throat, under the noble head, and the horse screamed and shuddered as the blood poured out of him in a red rush. He would have collapsed, but the men of her khas held him up.

 

CoK, Tyrion XIV:

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A naked man fell from the sky and landed on the deck, body bursting like a melon dropped from a tower. His blood spattered through the slit of Tyrion's helm. Stones began to plummet down, crashing through the decks and turning men to pulp, until the whole bridge gave a shudder and twisted violently underfoot, knocking him sideways.

A man bursting will spread blood everywhere, causing spatter.

SoS, Dany IV:

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The tent flap pushed open, and Ser Jorah Mormont entered. He was dusty, and spattered with blood, but otherwise none the worse for battle. The exile knight went to one knee before Dany and said, "Your Grace, I bring you victory. 

Mormont again. Spattered with blood after a battle.

SoS, Tyrion VIII:

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It took some time to sort that out, but in the end they spurred to opposite ends of the hall, and wheeled about for the tilt. As the lords and ladies guffawed and giggled, the little men came together with a crash and a clatter, and the wolf knight's lance struck the helm of the stag knight and knocked his head clean off. It spun through the air spattering blood to land in the lap of Lord Gyles. The headless dwarf careened around the tables, flailing his arms. Dogs barked, women shrieked, and Moon Boy made a great show of swaying perilously back and forth on his stilts, until Lord Gyles pulled a dripping red melon out of the shattered helm, at which point the stag knight poked his face up out of his armor, and another storm of laughter rocked the hall.

This from Joff's wedding. Fake blood I assume. But again, notice "spattering" as the description for the blood as the head spins through the air. 

SoS, Arya XIII:

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"Might be," said the Hound, "but you're dead." His foot lashed out and caught the bench, driving it hard into Polliver's shins. Somehow the bearded man kept his feet, but the Hound ducked under his wild slash and brought his own sword up in a vicious backhand cut. Blood spattered on the ceiling and walls. The blade caught in the middle of Polliver's face, and when the Hound wrenched it loose half his head came with it.

The Hound doing work. An upward slash causing blood spatter on the ceiling. 

DwD, The Wayward Bride:

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Barrowton. Asha tried to recall who ruled in Barrowton. Some northern lord, no friend of mine. And that seal … the Boltons of the Dreadfort went into battle beneath pink banners spattered with little drops of blood. It only stood to reason that they would use pink sealing wax as well.

The Bolton banner. I'm sure you all have seen it.

DwD, Dany VI:

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"This?" Daario touched his temple. "A crossbowman tried to put a quarrel through my eye, but I outrode it. I was hurrying home to my queen, to bask in the warmth of her smile." He shook his sleeve, spattering red droplets. "This blood is not mine. One of my serjeants said we should go over to the Yunkai'i, so I reached down his throat and pulled his heart out. I meant to bring it to you as a gift for my silver queen, but four of the Cats cut me off and came snarling and spitting after me. One almost caught me, so I threw the heart into his face."

The shaking of Daario's sleeve spatters blood.

DwD, King's Prize:

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"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

A lovely talk... Even in spoken word, spatter is used correctly here. An axe blow to the skull would certainly spatter the face of the person giving the blow. Similar to how I believe BW stabbed Walder and has blood spatter on his upper torso. 

DwD, Tyrion X:

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He heard the whip before he felt it, a whistle in the air, thin and sharp. Tyrion grunted under the blow, but this time he managed to stay on his feet. His thoughts flashed back to the beginnings of his journey, when his most pressing problem had been deciding which wine to drink with his midmorning snails. See what comes of chasing dragons. A laugh burst from his lips, spattering the first row of buyers with blood and spit.

Tyrion on the auction block. This is a good picture of spattering. Blood and spit spraying out from his mouth onto the front row.

Skip LW for now.

DwD, Theon I:

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Hosteen Frey's sword was red almost to the hilt. Blood spatters speckled his cheeks like freckles. He lowered his blade and said, "As my lord commands. But after I deliver you the head of Stannis Baratheon, I mean to finish hacking off Lord Lard's."

Hosteen slashing up Manderly. This causes blood spatter. Isn't it interesting that GRRM uses blood spatter here, immediately after showing BW with blood spatter? I think he's telling us something here...

Back to LW: 

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Snow slid from Ser Hosteen's cloaks as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew—Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood.

Notice the similarities with the other examples. Almost every time we have "blood spatter" it is from something spraying blood out. Just like how I think BW did LW. The only instance where George uses "blood spatter"  that is a little hazy is here with Renly in Eddard XIII:

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"A boar." Lord Renly was still in his hunting greens, his cloak spattered with blood.

From when Robert was killed by the boar. We don't know exactly what happened when Robert was gored. But we do have this: 

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“My brother was always strong,” Lord Renly said. “Not wise, perhaps, but strong.” In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert’s ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. “He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar.” His voice was full of wonder.

So I could see Renly and the others rushing to Robert when they see him gored, then getting spattered as they get there. Also, I'm not that familiar with boar hunting in medieval times but don't people stand next to each other and wait for the boar to charge before striking? I know Robert wanted to take the boar alone, but the other men would still be next to him right? Maybe someone else could help with this.

I think we get a pretty good idea of what George wants us to think when he says "spattered with blood".  BW would have his upper torso spattered with blood from stabbing LW. 

George also describes BW's gloves as "caked with his cousin's blood".  According to dictionary.com, caked means: to form into a crust or compact mass. BW's gloves would become caked from the stabbing as well. I would imagine BW would be holding somewhere with one hand while stabbing with the other, getting blood on his gloves. The blood would eventually harden and become crusted or caked. Including the BW caked blood there are 4 instances in the first 5 books where George uses "caked" when describing blood. Here they are:

CoK, Jon VII:

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Together they washed the caked blood from the direwolf's fur. Ghost struggled and bared his teeth when Qhorin poured the wine into the ragged red gashes the eagle had left him, but Jon wrapped his arms around him and murmured soothing words, and soon enough the wolf quieted. 

From when Ghost is attacked by the eagle. The blood has dried into the fur, needing to be washed out.

FfC, Brienne II:

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The looters come with the carrion crows after every battle. Brienne walked her horse past mail shirts still caked with brown blood, dinted helms, notched longswords. 

Brienne looking at old armor with old blood on it.

DwD, The Discarded Knight:

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The dead man stared up reproachfully. His beard was brown with caked blood, but a trickle of red still leaked from his neck. From the look of him, it had taken more than one blow to part his head from his body. In the back of the hall, petitioners began to slip away. One of the Brazen Beasts ripped off his brass hawk's mask and began to spew up his breakfast.

Poor Groleo... Old, dried blood in his beard would become caked. 

The caked blood on BW's gloves also fit George's other descriptions of "caked blood".  Caked does not have to mean a lot of blood, just blood that has been formed into a crust or compact mass. Basically it is blood that has hardened. The blood on the gloves would eventually harden. There would be more than just blood spatters on the gloves because the hands would be closer to the fatal wounds delivered by BW.

Even with the very specific descriptions of blood on BW there are still questions about other ways he could have his cousins blood on him. The most common explanation is that BW went over to his dead cousin and pulled or dragged him. However, this would not cause blood spatter or caked blood on the gloves because the body is already frozen. George specifically mentions, "the cold outside had frozen his blood". Even if the body was not all the way frozen I do not believe BW is strong enough to budge a body in snow at all, much less pull or drag it with enough force to cause blood spatter to his upper torso.  The average weight of an average 9 year old male is 63 lbs (reference.com) and Big Walder is described as "sharp-faced and skinny and half a foot shorter" than his cousin (CoK, Bran I). He would be able to move the body (most likely in snow) at all.  

So if Big Walder did it, why does he walk around with blood on his upper torso and gloves? The most likely answer for this is that he is 9 years old and would not think to get rid of the clothes he was wearing when he did the deed. I also question whether or not BW would have an extra set of winter gloves to change into after the killing. He is from the Riverlands and coming into his first winter. Would he have brought two pairs of nice winter gloves with him to Winterfell? I would be somewhat surprised if he had two pairs. I can understand adults who are done growing to probably have more than one pair of nice gloves, but a 9 year old who is still growing? I am not sure, can someone help me out with this? It would also make sense for a 9 year old to not realize he had blood spatters on his other clothing. 

Where is the motivation? Theon thinks in Reek III: 

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Little Walder had become Lord Ramsay's best boy and grew more like him every day, but the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin's games and cruelties.

So the two are very different when LW is killed. LW is becoming more like Ramsey and BW is not. It would be reasonable to think that BW may not like this. Also, I don't think the two were close at all. These are not reasons for murder of course, but they do call each other stupid quite a bit. 

CoK, Bran I

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"We're cousins, not brothers," added Big Walder, the little one. "I'm Walder son of Jammos. My father was Lord Walder's son by his fourth wife. He's Walder son of Merrett. His grandmother was Lord Walder's third wife, the Crakehall. He's ahead of me in the line of succession even though I'm older."

"Only by fifty-two days," Little Walder objected. "And neither of us will ever hold the Twins, stupid."

"I will," Big Walder declared. "We're not the only Walders either. Ser Stevron has a grandson, Black Walder, he's fourth in line of succession, and there's Red Walder, Ser Emmon's son, and Bastard Walder, who isn't in the line at all. He's called Walder Rivers not Walder Frey. Plus there's girls named Walda."

CoK, Bran V:

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Little Walder hooted. "Tired of waiting for our grandfather to die, you mean. Does this mean Ser Emmon's the heir now?"

"Don't be stupid," his cousin said. "The sons of the first son come before the second son. Ser Ryman is next in line, and then Edwyn and Black Walder and Petyr Pimple. And then Aegon and all his sons."

“Ryman is old too,” said Little Walder. “Past forty, I bet. And he has a bad belly. Do you think he’ll be lord?”

“I’ll be lord. I don’t care if he is.”

These quotes don't spell out murder, but they do show that they don't really like each other. If someone has a quote of them being friendly with each other please post it, I could not find anything. The quotes also show another possible motivation factor for BW, succession. In both these quotes BW says he will be Lord.

Also, note that BW is saying this right in front of LW! LW would have to be dead for this to happen, yet BW openly declares it in front of him! (kudos to @Aegon VII for pointing this out to me) Yes, BW's succession is unlikely given where he is in the line of succession, but in a 9 year olds mind one less person in front of him could mean one more step up the ladder towards being Lord. And it is clear that he wants to and thinks he will be Lord.

Also, when they play "Lord of the Crossing" Bran says in CoK, Bran I: 

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Little Walder was lord of the crossing more often than not.

Big Walder also tells Theon this in Reek III:

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"Did you find your cousins, my lord?"

"No. I never thought we would. They're dead. Lord Wyman had them killed. That's what I would have done if I was him."

He has thought about killing before, and was not afraid to express it to Theon.

There are also ideas that BW may have been working with or told to do the killing by someone. I did not get into this because the post is already too long and I don't feel like there is enough information to figure that out yet, but feel free to go this direction if you like. What am I missing? Who did it, if not Big Walder? 

[Oakhearts head]

If Big Walder killed Little Walder, it has more to do with LW being a nutcase than any notion of BW ever inheriting lordship of the Crossing, as he expresses full well in the quote you posted he knows that will never happen. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said:

If Big Walder killed Little Walder, it has more to do with LW being a nutcase than any notion of BW ever inheriting lordship of the Crossing, as he expresses full well in the quote you posted he knows that will never happen. 

You may be right, but I actually do think BW believes he will be Lord. He doesn't say that neither of them will be Lord, that is Little Walder who says this.

[chrisdaw]

The times I've seen it discussed I think everyone was pretty much in agreement that it is the case.

I do think BW does truly believe he will rule the crossing one day, and that LW would have to be moved out of the way eventually, but that he killed him in the immediate due to more pressing concerns. BW looks down upon Ramsay, he feels Ramsay is a moron that will bring down ruin on himself through his own stupidity, and that LW was by aping Ramsay becoming a liability that BW thought needed to be dealt with before it reflected or became an impediment upon him.

And I think BW is right, he will rule the crossing. I believe Jon will make him Lord after he destroys the current Walder. I see something like Jon and his army being held up outside the Twins and sending BW in to treat with Lord Walder, but really with the secret intention to have BW open the gates (or is it lower the bridge?), which he will do and be rewarded for it with the Lordship after Jon is finished his work inside. 

[The Sleeper]

I don't think you need to that far to get a motive. They are a couple of eight year olds, who don't get along and carry actual swords. A fight getting out of hand is all it would take.

[Greywater-Watch]

The two Walder Boys are not stupid, if not they would not have survived in the proximity of Ramsey Bolton for so long.

I have not sensed anywhere a hatred between Big and Little Walder which could be motivation enough to kill each other.

Nor can I imagine stepping up in the heritage ladder a sufficient motivation.

And both Walders are clever enough to understand the fragility of the Bolton coalition with an especial danger to the Freys (being hated by all Northmen), so why should they put further oil into the fire which smoulders at Winterfell?

[rotting sea cow]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

The two Walder Boys are not stupid, if not they would not have survived in the proximity of Ramsey Bolton for so long.

I have not sensed anywhere a hatred between Big and Little Walder which could be motivation enough to kill each other.

Nor can I imagine stepping up in the heritage ladder a sufficient motivation.

And both Walders are clever enough to understand the fragility of the Bolton coalition with an especial danger to the Freys (being hated by all Northmen), so why should they put further oil into the fire which smoulders at Winterfell?

I don't think BW cares about anyone but himself. There is also clearl discomfort in him about the activities of LW as noted by Theon's "the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin’s games and cruelties".

Why kill LW now? Well, it creates further conflict between Northmen and Freys which can get two more Freys killed, moving himself up in the ladder. Other reasons are of course in play, maybe he's actively working to bring down Ramsay whose psychopathic behavior threatens everybody. Also, BW and LW, may have gone to the crypts together (they know where they are) and BW decided to silence LW after what they saw.

I also have the speculation that the 2nd Red Wedding already happened in the aDwD timeline and the news reached WF that morning, where lots of Freys got killed. That would explain the fear in Fat Walda face and the violent behavior of the other Freys. BW just poured more oil in the fire.

How the Freys gather together, the underground conflicts, the obsession for the succession, makes them a very interesting family. They will get all killed, except for BW.
 

 

[Greywater-Watch]

12 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I don't think BW cares about anyone but himself. There is also clearl discomfort in him about the activities of LW as noted by Theon's "the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin’s games and cruelties".

Why kill LW now? Well, it creates further conflict between Northmen and Freys which can get two more Freys killed, moving himself up in the ladder. Other reasons are of course in play, maybe he's actively working to bring down Ramsay whose psychopathic behavior threatens everybody. Also, BW and LW, may have gone to the crypts together (they know where they are) and BW decided to silence LW after what they saw.

I also have the speculation that the 2nd Red Wedding already occurred in the aDwD timeline and the news reached WF that morning, where lots of Freys got killed. That would explain the fear in Fat Walda face and the violent behavior of the other Freys. BW just poured more oil in the fire.

How the Freyx gather together, the underground conflicts, the obsession for the succession, makes them a very interesting family. They will get all killed, except for BW.
 

 

You may be right. But I think the Frey boys, as I said, are too clever to pour oil into the fire. If the truth would be revealed, they would have enemies all around them, Bolton and their own Frey men (especially Hosteen and Aenys, who was still alive then).

[sweetsunray]

20 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

You may be right. But I think the Frey boys, as I said, are too clever to pour oil into the fire. If the truth would be revealed, they would have enemies all around them, Bolton and their own Frey men (especially Hosteen and Aenys, who was still alive then).

BW is actually using cognitive dissonance to his advantage here. Several men have been murdered, and Roose & Co are looking for one killer, even though there are at least several spearwives, possibly Theon killed Nimble Dick (if you believe in Theon Durden, and not totally impossible, as he can carve meat with a knife, despite losing a few fingers, and a guy like Nimble Dick would completely underestimate Theon to begin with), and then Big Walder's story and blood splatter. We as readers can consider several killers for the several murders far more objectively than Roose & Freys do. They already assume there's only one killer,and suspect Wyman Manderly killed the Freys who were at White Harbor if not having a hand in the WF murders. On top of that Big Walder is a child in their eyes. It's in their eyes impossible that BW would have killed the others, and far away from the Twins, in WF surrounded by enemies, Hosteen and Aenys are even less likely to suspect a Frey child to kill another Frey child. And Hosteen is a stupid oaf on top of it. They don't and won't suspect BW, because they are already prejudiced towards someone else.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The times I've seen it discussed I think everyone was pretty much in agreement that it is the case.

Really!? I get so much pushback from people about other ways BW could have got the blood on him. That is sort of why I wanted to make this thread.

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

And I think BW is right, he will rule the crossing. I believe Jon will make him Lord after he destroys the current Walder. I see something like Jon and his army being held up outside the Twins and sending BW in to treat with Lord Walder, but really with the secret intention to have BW open the gates (or is it lower the bridge?), which he will do and be rewarded for it with the Lordship after Jon is finished his work inside. 

This is very interesting. I also believe BW will have a bigger role to play in the upcoming books. This murder will make more sense after WoW comes out.

[Greywater-Watch]

29 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

BW is actually using cognitive dissonance to his advantage here. Several men have been murdered, and Roose & Co are looking for one killer, even though there are at least several spearwives, possibly Theon killed Nimble Dick (if you believe in Theon Durden, and not totally impossible, as he can carve meat with a knife, despite losing a few fingers, and a guy like Nimble Dick would completely underestimate Theon to begin with), and then Big Walder's story and blood splatter. We as readers can consider several killers for the several murders far more objectively than Roose & Freys do. They already assume there's only one killer,and suspect Wyman Manderly killed the Freys who were at White Harbor if not having a hand in the WF murders. On top of that Big Walder is a child in their eyes. It's in their eyes impossible that BW would have killed the others, and far away from the Twins, in WF surrounded by enemies, Hosteen and Aenys are even less likely to suspect a Frey child to kill another Frey child. And Hosteen is a stupid oaf on top of it. They don't and won't suspect BW, because they are already prejudiced towards someone else.

I see your Argumentation and I think it possilbe as far as Big Walder having a motivation to kill Little Walder. What I doubt is that this is sufficient to commit the murder. Do you see any interest for e.g. Hosteen or Aenys to help Big Walder in this crime?

[chrisdaw]

BW is nothing like stupid. He's not only smart enough to know Manderly killed his family members, he's perceptive to know he can straight out say it (and that he'd have done the same thing) and that it will be of no consequence. He understands how far the North is from the twins, that Manderly is shielded by circumstance, that ultimately Bolton doesn't want it to be true because he needs to keep the North together and so isn't going to look too hard. BW is eight or whatever he is going on thirty.

LW was idolising Ramsay, mimicking his behaviour for his approval. And that has potential consequences for BW. Ramsay is in simple terms a bully, and bullies victimise those smaller and weaker than themselves. BW is both younger and particularly smaller than LW, BW is both perceptive and proactive, he removed the potential threat when the opportunity presented itself. Manderly's murders were probably somewhat of an inspiration.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

The two Walder Boys are not stupid, if not they would not have survived in the proximity of Ramsey Bolton for so long.

I have not sensed anywhere a hatred between Big and Little Walder which could be motivation enough to kill each other.

Thanks for contributing! I hope you are not thinking I said they were stupid. I said they call each other stupid (which they do) and I was clear in saying that their quotes where they call each other stupid are NOT a reason for murder. I just wanted to show that I got the feeling they don't really like each other. 

 

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Nor can I imagine stepping up in the heritage ladder a sufficient motivation.

I'm not arguing this is the only reason for the killing, but in the few times we hear BW talk, two of the conversations he basically declares "I will be Lord".

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

And both Walders are clever enough to understand the fragility of the Bolton coalition with an especial danger to the Freys (being hated by all Northmen), so why should they put further oil into the fire which smoulders at Winterfell?

As Theon says, BW is made of different "stuff". It is hard to tell his reasoning. Again, I think the motivation and reasons for this killing will become more clear in WoW. Thanks for your input, I always enjoy your posts.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Also, BW and LW, may have gone to the crypts together (they know where they are) and BW decided to silence LW after what they saw.

This is awesome! I remember finding the quote about Rickon taking them down to the crypts and was like wow, these two little boys know how to get in the crypts. This will mean something.

[Ser Giggity]

11 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

BW is both younger and particularly smaller than LW

You got something wrong there, as far as i know. Big Walder is smaller, but older than Little Walder, hence his name.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

46 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Several men have been murdered, and Roose & Co are looking for one killer, even though there are at least several spearwives, possibly Theon killed Nimble Dick (if you believe in Theon Durden, and not totally impossible, as he can carve meat with a knife, despite losing a few fingers, and a guy like Nimble Dick would completely underestimate Theon to begin with)

I don't want to derail the topic too much, but doesn't Rowan claim Yellow Dick here in Theon 1, DwD: 

Quote

Rowan gave him a hard look. “You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard’s words. Not you. Not ever. After what you did—”

“You killed a boy as well.”

“That was not us. I told you.”

“Words are wind.” They are no better than me. We’re just the same. “You killed the others, why not him? Yellow Dick—”

“—stank as bad as you. A pig of a man.”

 

48 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

On top of that Big Walder is a child in their eyes. It's in their eyes impossible that BW would have killed the others, and far away from the Twins, in WF surrounded by enemies, Hosteen and Aenys are even less likely to suspect a Frey child to kill another Frey child. And Hosteen is a stupid oaf on top of it. They don't and won't suspect BW, because they are already prejudiced towards someone else.

This is a great point. No one is going to suspect BW, remember he is 9. This is another reason he is able to walk around with caked blood on his gloves without raising great suspicion onto himself. Also, they don't call Hosteen Ser Stupid for nothing. George wants us to remember Hosteen is not too bright.

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Really!? I get so much pushback from people about other ways BW could have got the blood on him. That is sort of why I wanted to make this thread.

This is very interesting. I also believe BW will have a bigger role to play in the upcoming books. This murder will make more sense after WoW comes out.

Wasn't that all from a single person tho...  

 

55 minutes ago, Ser Giggity said:

You got something wrong there, as far as i know. Big Walder is smaller, but older than Little Walder, hence his name.

Your right he is older, but LW came before him in the line of succession.

[A Ghost of Someone]

It very well could be Big Walder.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

29 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Wasn't that all from a single person tho...  

In that particular thread, yes. But there has been pushback in others, such as this one.

 

[Bironic]

I think the theory is good. Although I am not completely convinced.

Mainly for two reasons: How did Big Walder kill LW? Little Walder is bigger, stronger, more capable of killing, fighting, hunting etc.

Second BW is intelligent: By killing LW he destabilizes the already precarious situation for the freys in the north. As long as roose is in control, he is quite safe, if it comes to tensions between Roose's allies, the freys are the first to get killed. Stannis is the most obvious winner if it comes to blows between Roose's allies, so the man who did the deed had the intention to boost Stannis cause. Why should BW do that? If Stannis and Roose meet in battle, BW could very well die, get executed by vengeful northmen, killed in the battle, or burned at stake by Clayton Suggs.