Spattered and Caked. Big Walder Killed Little Walder

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 12/19/2016 at 7:50 PM, John Suburbs said:

I think we can safely rule out that BW killed his cousin as part of a plan to some day inherit the Twins.

I'm torn here. I don't think BW "planned" on killing LW as a plot to take the Twins. But, I do think he is wanting to be Lord someday. As he would tell you, even if you would have to be dead in order for this to happen. Lol.

I do, however, think that part of his motivation to kill LW was because of his wanting to rule the Twins. Just because it is unlikely that he will rule, does not mean it could not motivate part of him to do this. He is 9 and 9 year olds don't always think rationally. The likeliness of his inheritance and him seeing the likeliness may not be the same thing.

[Jadakiss]

On 12/16/2016 at 5:04 AM, John Suburbs said:

I never said there was a 0 percent chance that BW is the killer, just that there are too many disconnects in virtually everyone's behavior regarding his appearance. Who kills someone, and then literally walks around with the victim's blood all over them, and even has the balls to point the finger at someone else to the two most viscous lords in the realm? It just doesn't add up.

 

you are acting as if an 8 year old child has reason and is some super skilled murderer

[Jadakiss]

6 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm torn here. I don't think BW "planned" on killing LW as a plot to take the Twins. But, I do think he is wanting to be Lord someday. As he would tell you, even if you would have to be dead in order for this to happen. Lol.

I do, however, think that part of his motivation to kill LW was because of his wanting to rule the Twins. Just because it is unlikely that he will rule, does not mean it could not motivate part of him to do this. He is 9 and 9 year olds don't always think rationally. The likeliness of his inheritance and him seeing the likeliness may not be the same thing.

 

I think its as simple as him seeing that he is becoming a monster like ramsay and saved his innocence

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

where does it say that he was walking around for hours with blood on his hands? is this supposed to be inferred from the fact that the body was frozen? if so, it doesn't take hours for the outside of a body to freeze in sub zero temperatures. when I was growing up (sometimes -30 with windchill) we had a pig get out of the barn. couldn't have been out for half an hour and yet when we found it the body was frozen stiff. not frozen solid, but certainly frozen. also, if you put a large steak on a snowbank in below zero weather and wait for it to freeze solid you'll be measuring time in minutes, not hours.

That's my point. The outside of the body may have been frozen, but we don't know what the inside was like. We also don't know what the temperature is at Winterfell, but I doubt it is sub-zero. Guardsmen are spending hours on the wall at night and there are no reports of frostbite or people losing ears, noses, etc. We also don't know exactly how long the body was outside. And then there are the horses who react immediately to the presence of the blood, which is unlikely if it was just a little splatter and dried, caked blood on a pair of gloves. There are simply too many unknowns to definitively conclude that the blood on BW was caused by him murdering LW.

20 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

I'm pretty skeptical of the whole "digging through bloody snow = blood spatter" argument for all of the numerous reasons previously mentioned. but the obvious one for me is that we have an example of blood spatter in this very same chapter and that blood spatter was from violence, not burrowing.

The bloody snow is only one possibility. The spatter could have been caused by violently tugging and pulling on the not-completely-frozen body from the snow. If you measure freezing in minutes, not hours, as you said, then the body could very well have "frozen" as it was being carried across the yard.

20 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

I think the simplest answer is the correct one. BW killed LW and got blood on himself, he hid the body in a snowbank, didn't have an opportunity to clean himself up, then pointed blame on the easiest scapegoat available. Theon knows (strongly suspects) the Spearwives killed all the others in Winterfell, so he looks to them. the Freys know (highly suspect) Manderly killed their kin and the others in Winterfell, so they look to him.

BW as the killer is not the simplest answer. It leads to all sorts of conundrums in the text, namely; why is BW walking around with bloody hands after the murder? It takes literally seconds to ditch a pair of gloves, and if someone came upon the body that quickly, then BW and his bloody gloves would be standing right there with a freshly killed body or there would be tracks in the snow leading directly to him. So in what possible way can this scenario play out that doesn't result in BW being accused of murder immediately?

Furthermore, what does he hope to gain? There are still umpteen Freys, many of them grown fighting men, between him and the twins, and why would he care that LW, who has always been a little prick, is turning into a bigger prick around Ramsey? Is this enough of a reason for a 9yo boy to forever condemn himself in the eyes of gods and men as a kinslayer -- literally, the worst sin in all of Westeros?

Why do neither the Manderlys nor Boltons wonder why this kid has blood on his hands when the accusations threaten to tear their fragile alliance apart?

As you said, the simplest answer is the correct one; it's the answer that everyone in the room can plainly see: the blood came from the dead body, not the living one.

20 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

in addition to the fact that BW appears to have been quite literally "caught red-handed", I just don't know why Manderly would kill him. if he's looking to kill a Frey, he'd kill an adult.

He hasn't been caught red-handed. Not one person in the room suspects him, not even the person who is being falsely accused of the murder.

20 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

concerning Manderly's quip about growing up to be a Frey... I think it was just a too great of a chance to make a joke and he couldn't pass it up. cause let's face it, that's a pretty funny line and he'll never have another chance to use it.

So rather than present the group with the obvious fact that this boy has no reasonable explanation as to why he has all this blood on him, he'd rather make a joke of it. I think you missed the chapter where it was revealed the Manderly is no fool, he only pretends to be.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The blood is frozen. 

The blood outside of the body that the Theon sees from across the Great Hall appears to be frozen. Once again, it's important to recognize the difference between what we know and what we think we know.

14 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Since there is no snow mentioned on BW why would we think he would have bloody melted snow on him (even though I still maintain this would not appear as spatter)? Snow is mentioned on Hosteen, yet no blood. 

Excellent point. But if we are talking about frozen blood in frozen snow that has melted to cause the spatter effect, then there might not be much snow on BW anymore. And that is even if BW was the one to dig him out. As I mentioned, bloody snow is only one possibility for the spatter. Also note that Hosteen is only caked with snow to the waist, which suggests to me that he got that way trudging through the snow to the Great Hall, with BW following behind in the now tamped-down snow.

14 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The examples you give are what the POV "knows" based on what they have bern told (found out).

I should have been more specific. Are there any instances where our POV is wrong when describing something so describable (can't think of a better word)? Do we have somewhere where a POV sees a wolf that is actually a lion? POV sees blue that is actually green? I don't think we do. I think we can trust that in situations like this George wants us to see what is actually there. But we can agree to disagree on this I suppose. 

Well, according to you, Theon is not the one describing spatter, GRRM is. But I'm not arguing that Theon does not see spatter. I'm only arguing that your finite definition of spatter is not proof positive of how the blood got there. All Theon knows is what he sees, and no matter what word you use to describe the blood it is clear to Theon and everybody else in the room that it was not due to murder. All of these people know exactly what fresh blood looks like, much more so than our more advanced modern human, so the fact that not one single person who sees him thinks he is the murderer should speak volumes about the look of the blood on his gloves, arms, chest and cloak.

14 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

As much as I don't think this is possible even with a not completely frozen corpse, the corpse's blood is frozen when we see it.

Sorry, but you keep forcing me to repeat myself ad nauseum: the blood outside of the body appears to be frozen to Theon who is sitting across the hall. We have no idea how long the body has been dead or what its internal condition is.

14 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

So if I understand correctly, you could say the blood spatter is from a bird with the bloody flux flying over head of BW while he is laying out in the snow looking at the sky and I would have to prove it wrong rather than you proving it right?

I'm not making that claim, and you are free to believe what you wish. But it is well established that the person who claims to hold an absolute truth, which you are doing, must meet the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Arguing that Theon's long-distance view of frozen blood on the outside of the body is definitive proof that the blood is frozen solid throughout the body falls far short of that burden.

14 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This would stray away from the definition of spatter. Hosteen and BW walk by Theon on his way to the high table. I think he probably gets a decent look.

No, it does not stray from the definition of spatter:

Google: to cover with drops or spots of something

Merriam-Webster: to cover with or as if with splashes or spots

Your Dictionary: v, to splash, spot or soil with drops or blobs; n, a drop or splash of something spattered

Thesarus.com lists a number of synonyms: daub, mottle, smudge, douse, soil, slop, spot...

Some definitions say "small" spots or specks, but nowhere does it say how small nor that it can only be created by the spraying of a liquid. That is in your own mind.

There is nothing in the text that says they were anywhere close to Theon as the entered. Theon sat in the back of the hall, near the horses. Nowhere does it say he is sitting by the door, and it is extremely unlikely that he would choose to sit there because that is a place where people get noticed -- and Theon most definitely does not want to be noticed.

15 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think this is the crux of our friendly disagreement. I see the behavior and response by the people involved as relatively normal considering all the factors and the situation they are in. You see their response as an indication that BW didn't do anything wrong, yes? 

Again, I need to clarify. I view their response as an indication that it doesn't appear that BW has done anything wrong. He very well may be the killer, but we cannot conclude this from the mere presence of spatter. If we could, then it would be obvious to those in the room because they have much greater experience with blood and killing than we do.

15 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Or.... Theon and the rest of the peoplein the hall have a bias against people who they think (know) killed others so they look to them instead. Also, I'm not as confident as you are in the blood spatter expertise of Westeros.

Every single person in the hall has a bias against Manderlys? Even the Manderlys?

How many times have you've seen blood spatter in your life? How often do you think men who slaughter their own game or fight in bloody blade-on-blade battle see it?

15 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Then he wouldn't be Wyman Manderly. This goes back to what I think George wants from this situation, that we know something the characters do not. Something George does a lot.

Sorry, you've lost me again. How does Wyman recognizing the truth of the matter make him not Wyman Manderly? Did you read the chapter where it is revealed that he only pretends to be a fool? He is actually pretty sharp.

15 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

But blood spatter does have to come from fresh (undried, unfrozen) blood. Yes, an assumption based on facts told to us in the text (body being frozen, snow, etc.) I think BW caused the spatter. 

Undried, yes, but how fresh it has to be is open to debate. Blood inside a dead body does not dry, or freeze, immediately. So now you have arrived at an incontrovertible truth based on what you admit is an assumption. BTW, I think BW caused the spatter too, but not by killing LW.

15 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The blood is frozen when we see it in the hall. The blood froze on on the way while Hosteen was carrying it? Eh? Then why no blood on Hosteen? Technically, no it doesn't have to mean BW did the killing. The blood on BW could be from him standing right next to the person doing the killing. 

Also, this isn't a court case. We don't have to do "reasonable doubt". 

Again, you are not being precise in your assessment of the situation. The visible blood that Theon sees is frozen, but there is no way you can prove beyond doubt that all the blood is frozen from this flimsy evidence.

And yes, in order to have a rational discussion, the person claiming absolute truth does have to eliminate all reasonable doubts. Otherwise, you could just as easily claim BW is really a White Walker and task everybody else with proving you wrong.

15 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Given the pattern with which George uses the term "blood spatter" I think we can determine what he wants us to see. His pattern, interestingly enough, happens to match the dictionary's definition.

GRRM uses the full range of the English lexicon, with all its varied definitions, double-meanings, symbolisms and imagery. I've posted ample definitions above, please repost yours where it says spatter can only be caused by fresh blood spraying from an open wound.

 

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

 

you are acting as if an 8 year old child has reason and is some super skilled murderer

He would have to be skilled enough to kill a larger boy, and have the nerve to commit kinslaying, one of the worst sins in Westeros. If he is capable of doing that, then yes, he should have the basic common sense to get rid of the bloody gloves.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, according to you, Theon is not the one describing spatter, GRRM is.

Of course George is doing the describing. Through Theon's POV in this instance.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

All Theon knows is what he sees, and no matter what word you use to describe the blood it is clear to Theon and everybody else in the room that it was not due to murder. All of these people know exactly what fresh blood looks like, much more so than our more advanced modern human, so the fact that not one single person who sees him thinks he is the murderer should speak volumes about the look of the blood on his gloves, arms, chest and cloak.

Let's not beat this down anymore. I've given my reasons why I think the people in the hall react the way they do.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but you keep forcing me to repeat myself ad nauseum: the blood outside of the body appears to be frozen to Theon who is sitting across the hall. We have no idea how long the body has been dead or what its internal condition is.

But we have a pretty good idea of the inside of the body (I think you are talking about the inside of the wounds, right? where the blood would have to come from) . Hemostasis taking over would not allow blood to be spattered out onto BW IF he did any digging. The cold temperatures would only accelerate the hemostasis process.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is nothing in the text that says they were anywhere close to Theon as the entered. Theon sat in the back of the hall, near the horses.

Agreed. But the doors from which Hosteen comes through are in the back of the hall, right?

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

He very well may be the killer, but we cannot conclude this from the mere presence of spatter.

Yes, the spatter is why i believe he did it. Given what we know about hemostasis and the unlikelihood of him getting spatter through snow from a body which appears to be frozen Im very confident he did it. Especially considering there is nothing which tells us he did any digging anyways.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

How many times have you've seen blood spatter in your life? How often do you think men who slaughter their own game or fight in bloody blade-on-blade battle see it?

They have probably seen it a lot as well, but that doesn't mean they have the same level of knowledge as the reader. Again I have given reasons why the people in the hall react the way they do.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, you've lost me again. How does Wyman recognizing the truth of the matter make him not Wyman Manderly? Did you read the chapter where it is revealed that he only pretends to be a fool? He is actually pretty sharp.

This was in response to your comment. I was basically saying that it is Wyman's character to make quips about Freys. If he saw the blood he should have said something,  but I doubt he thought he was going to get his necks sliced up.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Blood inside a dead body does not dry, or freeze, immediately. So now you have arrived at an incontrovertible truth based on what you admit is an assumption. BTW, I think BW caused the spatter too, but not by killing LW.

Blood inside a body may not "dry" but it does clot and congeal. This starts within minutes of the laceration occuring. This, along with the cold and snow makes the possibility of spatter impossible, IMO.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, you are not being precise in your assessment of the situation. The visible blood that Theon sees is frozen, but there is no way you can prove beyond doubt that all the blood is frozen from this flimsy evidence.

I think when the book says, "the cold outside had frozen his blood" it means the blood is frozen. And even if it was not allthe way frozen on the inside, it would stil have clotted and/or congealed to the point where spatter could not occur. Even IF BW dug, which we have no reason to believe he did.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Otherwise, you could just as easily claim BW is really a White Walker and task everybody else with proving you wrong.

But isn't that kind of what you are doing? Not that extremely, of course. But you are trying to defend the blood on BW with extremely unlikely (some impossible, IMO) ways. Shouldn't you have to prove he could get spatter on himself despite hemostasis, through snow, when the body appears to be frozen?

P.S. Let's not feed the troll.

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Of course George is doing the describing. Through Theon's POV in this instance.

Let's not beat this down anymore. I've given my reasons why I think the people in the hall react the way they do.

But we have a pretty good idea of the inside of the body (I think you are talking about the inside of the wounds, right? where the blood would have to come from) . Hemostasis taking over would not allow blood to be spattered out onto BW IF he did any digging. The cold temperatures would only accelerate the hemostasis process.

Agreed. But the doors from which Hosteen comes through are in the back of the hall, right?

Yes, the spatter is why i believe he did it. Given what we know about hemostasis and the unlikelihood of him getting spatter through snow from a body which appears to be frozen Im very confident he did it. Especially considering there is nothing which tells us he did any digging anyways.

They have probably seen it a lot as well, but that doesn't mean they have the same level of knowledge as the reader. Again I have given reasons why the people in the hall react the way they do.

This was in response to your comment. I was basically saying that it is Wyman's character to make quips about Freys. If he saw the blood he should have said something,  but I doubt he thought he was going to get his necks sliced up.

Blood inside a body may not "dry" but it does clot and congeal. This starts within minutes of the laceration occuring. This, along with the cold and snow makes the possibility of spatter impossible, IMO.

I think when the book says, "the cold outside had frozen his blood" it means the blood is frozen. And even if it was not allthe way frozen on the inside, it would stil have clotted and/or congealed to the point where spatter could not occur. Even IF BW dug, which we have no reason to believe he did.

But isn't that kind of what you are doing? Not that extremely, of course. But you are trying to defend the blood on BW with extremely unlikely (some impossible, IMO) ways. Shouldn't you have to prove he could get spatter on himself despite hemostasis, through snow, when the body appears to be frozen?

P.S. Let's not feed the troll.

I'm not sure if what you're talking about is homeostasis. That is when internal conditions are maintained even as external conditions change, such as when a living body regulates its own temperature despite how hot or cold it is outside. It seems to me that you are arguing the end of that process given that the body is dead. But again, we have no idea what the internal conditions are since we do not know how long the body has been dead or how cold it is outside. All we know is that Theon says the visible blood outside of the body is frozen, and if @myhalfgroat is correct, then that could easily have occurred during the walk from the ruined keep to the Great Hall.

There is a huge difference between a reasonable doubt, such as Theon not being able to determine the state of the inner body by its appearance outside, and making up silly arguments like birds flying overhead or White Walkers. This is why the standard is reasonable doubt, not any and all doubt. Your assumptions are based on spurious evidence at best, so no, you have not proven your hypothesis to the exclusion of all other reasonable possibilities. It is based on little more than a highly subjective, extremely limited definition of the word spatter, but like any many adjectives it can encompass wide gradations and a number of variations. GRRM uses the word blue to describe the sky on numerous occasions as well. Does that mean any time he says anything is blue, whether it is the sea, an article of clothing, someone's eyes..., that they can only be the color of the sky?

But we are really starting to circle on all of this, so I'm going to tap out now. Happy reading.

 

 

[myhalfgroat]

I agree that the blood could have frozen within the time of the walk to the keep, but if it is cold enough for that (and I believe it may be) then BW would need to have been present at the time of the wound or immediately after to have gotten "spatter" upon himself. the problem with the digging theory is that the blood stains would be pink and much more of a "smear" than a "spatter." 

and again, it seems odd for GRRM to use this particular word to describe something in a way counter to every other time he has used it. on top of that, I don't know what purpose it could possibly serve to use the term in the same chapter but expect it to mean something different. it would be like GRRM saying "the water was ICY" and we all agree he means the water was very cold; then 5 paragraphs later he says "the porridge was ICY" and we're supposed to entertain the idea that in this instance he doesn't mean cold but instead means the porridge is hard like ICE (maybe it sat out a long time and the moisture evaporated and it hardened). in both cases it's really going out of the way to interpret it differently from the established meaning.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not sure if what you're talking about is homeostasis. That is when internal conditions are maintained even as external conditions change, such as when a living body regulates its own temperature despite how hot or cold it is outside. It seems to me that you are arguing the end of that process given that the body is dead. But again, we have no idea what the internal conditions are since we do not know how long the body has been dead or how cold it is outside. All we know is that Theon says the visible blood outside of the body is frozen, and if @myhalfgroat is correct, then that could easily have occurred during the walk from the ruined keep to the Great Hall.

There is a huge difference between a reasonable doubt, such as Theon not being able to determine the state of the inner body by its appearance outside, and making up silly arguments like birds flying overhead or White Walkers. This is why the standard is reasonable doubt, not any and all doubt. Your assumptions are based on spurious evidence at best, so no, you have not proven your hypothesis to the exclusion of all other reasonable possibilities. It is based on little more than a highly subjective, extremely limited definition of the word spatter, but like any many adjectives it can encompass wide gradations and a number of variations. GRRM uses the word blue to describe the sky on numerous occasions as well. Does that mean any time he says anything is blue, whether it is the sea, an article of clothing, someone's eyes..., that they can only be the color of the sky?

But we are really starting to circle on all of this, so I'm going to tap out now. Happy reading.

 

 

Not homeostasis. Hemostasis. The stopping of the flow of blood in the body. 

[Jadakiss]

On 12/22/2016 at 5:44 AM, John Suburbs said:

He would have to be skilled enough to kill a larger boy, and have the nerve to commit kinslaying, one of the worst sins in Westeros. If he is capable of doing that, then yes, he should have the basic common sense to get rid of the bloody gloves.

 

lmao again a "sin" is different to an 8 year old CHILD. acting on impulse. Also all it takes to kill someone is a blow when they are sitting down or not expecting it.

 

You really are grasping at some straws that don't even exist and are making a fool out of yourself, to be blunt.