POEMS (or other sundry quotes) that remind you of ASOIAF

ravenous reader · January 4, 2017

The song is a central motif:

-- The song of the earth

-- The song of swords

-- The song of ice and fire.

Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1844–1881

6. Ode

WE are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers,	5
On whom the pale moon gleams:
Yet we are the movers and shakers
Of the world for ever, it seems.

With wonderful deathless ditties
We build up the world's great cities,	10
And out of a fabulous story
We fashion an empire's glory:
One man with a dream, at pleasure,
Shall go forth and conquer a crown;
And three with a new song's measure	15
Can trample an empire down.

We, in the ages lying
In the buried past of the earth,
Built Nineveh with our sighing,
And Babel itself with our mirth;	20
And o'erthrew them with prophesying
To the old of the new world's worth;
For each age is a dream that is dying,
Or one that is coming to birth.

ravenous reader · January 4, 2017

On 1/1/2017 at 9:24 AM, Tijgy said:

Thank you for the mentioning, RR A great thread you made, like you always! And thank you too, for another version of the balled, @Wizz-The-Smith.

Thanks Princess of the Green! :grouphug:

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I will admit though poetry isn't really my thing

That's OK. Just keep sending the music; that's poetry of a kind too! I must say it amuses me that poetry 'isn't your thing', since you are among the most lyrical analysts of the text I know... :wub:

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But I still would like to contribute to this thread by referring to my favorite special form of poetry and classical music, meaning a symphonic poem (it calls a poem! ). I chose the following one because it does make me think of the drowned god and our Patchface - who visited the 'kingdom' at the bottom of the sea.

Oh, I am a big fan of diving in to decipher Patchface's special brand of prophecy -- such as those confounding yet beguiling 'nennymoans'...

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The Water Goblin by Dvorak

Story told by the music : "A mother warns her daughter to stay away from the nearby lake because of a dream she has had about the water goblin. The daughter ignores the warning, goes to the lake and just as she begins to do her laundry she falls in. The goblin claims her as his wife. Her existence is sorrowful in his watery kingdom, but they have a child that is the only light in her life. She begs the Goblin to let her go see her mother one more time. The Goblin thinks it over and reluctantly agrees but on three conditions; She mustn't kiss or embrace anyone; she must return after one day as soon as the bells ring out for Vespers; and lastly she must leave the child with him as a hostage to guarantee her return. The woman leaves and after a sad meeting between her and her mother the evening bell tolls, but her mother holds her back and prevents he leaving, which enrages the Goblin. He knocks on the door, saying the child must be fed. The mother refuses to open the door and demands the child be left with them. The Goblin is blinded by rage, and after awhile he returns to the lake. After a violent crash during a storm, the mother and daughter open the door and find the headless body of the child on the doorstep."

Dvorak based the music upon a poem written by the Czech writer, Karl Erben.

I enjoyed that; thanks!

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I did find some experts of a translation of the poem:

On a poplar by the pool
The Goblin sat at twilight cool:
'Glow, moon, glow,
That my thread may sew.

For myself new boots I'm sewing,

On dry land and water going:
Glow, moon, glow,
That my thread may sew.

'Thursday now—tomorrow's Friday—
sew a coat all trim and tidy:
Glow, moon, glow,
That my thread may sew.

Coat of green and boots of red,

Patchface's (and Santa's) colors green and red! Patchface is the 'evil' Santa (anagram 'Satan') or Krampus, Pelznickel figure... The water goblin's incantatory refrain 'glow moon glow' even reminds me of Patchface's irritating and rather menacing 'oh oh oh!' (see 'the devil's bluster'...ho! ho! hoh!)

The mention of 'sewing' the thread by moonlight is a further expression of weaving a spell of some sort.

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For tomorrow I'll be wed:
Glow, moon, glow,
That my thread may sew.'

-

On the lake the storm is shrieking;
In the storm the child screams shrill;
Screams that pierce the soul with anguish,
Then they suddenly fall still.
'Oh, my mother, please, oh, please!
At those cries my blood will freeze—
Mother mine, oh, dearest mother,
Fear of him my heart does fill!'

Something fell—beneath the doorway
Moisture trickles—tinged with red.
When the old one went to open,
What she saw filled her with dread.
In their blood, two objects lying
Sent cold terror through her flying:
Baby's head—without a body;
Tiny body—with no head.

(translation by Susan Reynolds)

Very sinister...

And also a happy new year!

I love your sinister romantic sense -- happy new year to you too and looking forward to working on projects with you again this year! XX

It seems GRRM has woven in these traditional myths of the abduction of the maid by some sort of monstrous creature with the suggestion of coercive sex to yield doomed hybrid offspring...bringing to mind the motif of 'stealing' a woman 'when the thief is in the moonmaid' and the squishers who purportedly abduct women and children, spiriting their prizes off to their watery underground halls.

Also the detail of the baby's head parting company from the body reminds me of several conversations I've been having lately about babies'/children's heads rather gruesomely being hacked off, swapped and sewn onto different bodies (not because I enjoy discussing such horrible subjects for their own sake; we were trying to figure out the people-as-swords and swords-as-people symbolism in which various hilts and blades get swapped out!):

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

Ghost slept at the foot of the bed that night, and for once Jon did not dream he was a wolf. Even so, he slept fitfully, tossing for hours before sliding down into a nightmare. Gilly was in it, weeping, pleading with him to leave her babes alone, but he ripped the children from her arms and hacked their heads off, then swapped the heads around and told her to sew them back in place.

When he woke, he found Edd Tollett looming over him in the darkness of his bedchamber. "M'lord? It is time. The hour of the wolf. You left orders to be woken."

A Clash of Kings - Theon V

The sky was a gloom of cloud, the woods dead and frozen. Roots grabbed at Theon's feet as he ran, and bare branches lashed his face, leaving thin stripes of blood across his cheeks. He crashed through heedless, breathless, icicles flying to pieces before him. Mercy, he sobbed. From behind came a shuddering howl that curdled his blood. Mercy, mercy. When he glanced back over his shoulder he saw them coming, great wolves the size of horses with the heads of small children. Oh, mercy, mercy. Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell. Every stride brought them closer. Theon tried to run faster, but his legs would not obey. The trees all had faces, and they were laughing at him, laughing, and the howl came again. He could smell the hot breath of the beasts behind him, a stink of brimstone and corruption. They're dead, dead, I saw them killed, he tried to shout, I saw their heads dipped in tar, but when he opened his mouth only a moan emerged, and then something touched him and he whirled, shouting . . .

. . . flailing for the dagger he kept by his bedside and managing only to knock it to the floor. Wex danced away from him. Reek stood behind the mute, his face lit from below by the candle he carried. "What?" Theon cried. Mercy. "What do you want? Why are you in my bedchamber? Why?"

A Feast for Crows - Brienne IV

For a time it seemed as though the steady wash of rain was the only sound in the world. Nimble Dick plowed on, heedless. She watched closely, noting how he bent his back, as if huddling low in the saddle would keep him dry. This time there was no village close at hand when darkness came upon them. Nor were there any trees to give them shelter. They were forced to camp amongst some rocks, fifty yards above the tideline. The rocks at least would keep the wind off. "Best we keep a watch tonight, m'lady," Crabb told her, as she was struggling to get a driftwood fire lit. "A place like this, there might be squishers."

"Squishers?" Brienne gave him a suspicious look.

"Monsters," Nimble Dick said, with relish. "They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man's got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They're always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don't you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth." He grinned at Podrick. "They'd eat you, boy. They'd eat you raw."

"If they try, I'll kill them." Podrick touched his sword.

"You try that. You just try. Squishers don't die easy." He winked at Brienne. "You a bad little girl, m'lady?"

"No." Just a fool. The wood was too damp to light, no matter how many sparks Brienne struck off her flint and steel. The kindling sent up some smoke, but that was all. Disgusted, she settled down with her back to a rock, pulled her cloak over herself, and resigned herself to a cold, wet night. Dreaming of a hot meal, she gnawed on a strip of hard salt beef whilst Nimble Dick talked about the time Ser Clarence Crabb had fought the squisher king. He tells a lively tale, she had to admit, but Mark Mullendore was amusing too, with his little monkey.

Feast for Crows - Brienne IV

Brienne felt the same, but it would not serve to admit it. "A pine wood is a gloomy place, but in the end it's just a wood. There's naught here that we need fear."

"What about the squishers? And the heads?"

"There's a clever lad," said Nimble Dick, laughing.

Brienne gave him a look of annoyance. "There are no squishers," she told Podrick, "and no heads."

The hills went up, the hills went down. Brienne found herself praying that Nimble Dick was honest, and knew where he was taking them. By herself, she was not even certain she could have found the sea again. Day or night, the sky was solid grey and overcast, with neither sun nor stars to help her find her way.

In honor of Patchface's brand of nonsense poetry, I present you with Lewis Carroll's 'Jabberwocky' ( @Feather Crystal should also enjoy this...):

One of the most famous poems from the Alice books is “Jabberwocky." In it, the author demonstrates one of his signature techniques of creating whimsical and witty neologisms (making up words) called 'portmanteau' words. A 'portmanteau' word is an invented contraction combining two words, for which Carroll was famous; some of his inventions have even found their way into everyday use and the English dictionary. For example, the word 'galumphing' may be a combination of galloping + triumphing; 'chortle' a combination of chuckle + snort; and so on -- part of the fun is trying to figure out which words he has patched together Patchface-style, one might say!

See further examples of such 'portmanteaus' and more background to the poem at alice-in-wonderland. net. Don't be taken in by the nonsense aspect. Despite his whimsy, Carroll was a fastidious mathematician and he is actually very clever and deliberate in how he playfully constructs words and rhythms. Just like Patchface, he's not the fool he seems...In fact, the more one seeks, the more sense one finds in that apparent nonsense!

If you don't understand it, don't worry -- it's not necessarily intended to be understood; and one can still enjoy 'Jabberwocky' without fully comprehending what the author intended. For example, for those of you who enjoy a good sword fight complete with vanquishing a fearsome monster, who can beat the evocative line 'One, two! One, two! And through and through the vorpal blade went snicker-snack!' Apparently, so successful has been Carroll's phantasmagorical conception that his 'vorpal sword' has since found its way into the lexicon of gaming!

Also, Lewis Carroll is the source of GRRM's 'snarks' as in 'grumkins and snarks'. Whereas I agree with @Seams that the 'grumkins' of the infamous and elusive pair 'grumkins and snarks' most likely represents a play on the author's name, hence 'GRRMkins,' the word 'snark' has been directly lifted from Carroll's long poem 'The Hunting of the Snark'. It's too long to post here, but if you're interested you can find the Preface here, in which the author explains the rationale behind his peculiar neologistic style and the actual poem here on Poetry Foundation. Some more background to the poem with cool pictures, here.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion III

"You may sleep on the deck or in the hold, as you prefer. Ysilla will find bedding for you."

"How kind of her." Tyrion made a waddling bow, but at the cabin door, he turned back. "What if we should find the queen and discover that this talk of dragons was just some sailor's drunken fancy? This wide world is full of such mad tales. Grumkins and snarks, ghosts and ghouls, mermaids, rock goblins, winged horses, winged pigs … winged lions."

Jabberwocky

The Jabberwock `Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

`Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!’

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought —
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

`And has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
He chortled in his joy.

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Lewis Carroll

(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

Melifeather · January 5, 2017

23 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks Princess of the Green!

That's OK. Just keep sending the music; that's poetry of a kind too! I must say it amuses me that poetry 'isn't your thing', since you are among the most lyrical analysts of the text I know...

Oh, I am a big fan of diving in to decipher Patchface's special brand of prophecy -- such as those confounding yet beguiling 'nennymoans'...

I enjoyed that; thanks!

Patchface's (and Santa's) colors green and red! Patchface is the 'evil' Santa (anagram 'Satan') or Krampus, Pelznickel figure... The water goblin's incantatory refrain 'glow moon glow' even reminds me of Patchface's irritating and rather menacing 'oh oh oh!' (see 'the devil's bluster'...ho! ho! hoh!)

The mention of 'sewing' the thread by moonlight is a further expression of weaving a spell of some sort.

I love your sinister romantic sense -- happy new year to you too and looking forward to working on projects with you again this year! XX

It seems GRRM has woven in these traditional myths of the abduction of the maid by some sort of monstrous creature with the suggestion of coercive sex to yield doomed hybrid offspring...bringing to mind the motif of 'stealing' a woman 'when the thief is in the moonmaid' and the squishers who purportedly abduct women and children, spiriting their prizes off to their watery underground halls.

Also the detail of the baby's head parting company from the body reminds me of several conversations I've been having lately about babies'/children's heads rather gruesomely being hacked off, swapped and sewn onto different bodies (not because I enjoy discussing such horrible subjects for their own sake; we were trying to figure out the people-as-swords and swords-as-people symbolism in which various hilts and blades get swapped out!):

In honor of Patchface's brand of nonsense poetry, I present you with Lewis Carroll's 'Jabberwocky' ( @Feather Crystal should also enjoy this...):

One of the most famous poems from the Alice books is “Jabberwocky." In it, the author demonstrates one of his signature techniques of creating whimsical and witty neologisms (making up words) called 'portmanteau' words. A 'portmanteau' word is an invented contraction combining two words, for which Carroll was famous; some of his inventions have even found their way into everyday use and the English dictionary. For example, the word 'galumphing' may be a combination of galloping + triumphing; 'chortle' a combination of chuckle + snort; and so on -- part of the fun is trying to figure out which words he has patched together Patchface-style, one might say!

See further examples of such 'portmanteaus' and more background to the poem at alice-in-wonderland. net. Don't be taken in by the nonsense aspect. Despite his whimsy, Carroll was a fastidious mathematician and he is actually very clever and deliberate in how he playfully constructs words and rhythms. Just like Patchface, he's not the fool he seems...In fact, the more one seeks, the more sense one finds in that apparent nonsense!

If you don't understand it, don't worry -- it's not necessarily intended to be understood; and one can still enjoy 'Jabberwocky' without fully comprehending what the author intended. For example, for those of you who enjoy a good sword fight complete with vanquishing a fearsome monster, who can beat the evocative line 'One, two! One, two! And through and through the vorpal blade went snicker-snack!' Apparently, so successful has been Carroll's phantasmagorical conception that his 'vorpal sword' has since found its way into the lexicon of gaming!

Also, Lewis Carroll is the source of GRRM's 'snarks' as in 'grumkins and snarks'. Whereas I agree with @Seams that the 'grumkins' of the infamous and elusive pair 'grumkins and snarks' most likely represents a play on the author's name, hence 'GRRMkins,' the word 'snark' has been directly lifted from Carroll's long poem 'The Hunting of the Snark'. It's too long to post here, but if you're interested you can find the Preface here, in which the author explains the rationale behind his peculiar neologistic style and the actual poem here on Poetry Foundation. Some more background to the poem with cool pictures, here.

Jabberwocky

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

`Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!’

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought —
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

`And has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
He chortled in his joy.

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Lewis Carroll

(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

Thanks for the shout out RR, and thanks for Jabberwocky!

ravenous reader · January 5, 2017

On 12/25/2016 at 5:46 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

‘The Mystery’, is according to oral tradition written by the ancient Milesian poet Amergin. The Irish myths tell of how the Milesians defeated the Tuatha de Dannan and sent them into the world below, or Otherworld. And as you know I have posted about the Sidhe and Tuatha de Dannan, so the potential for a real life example from a Milesian poet was something I had to share.

THE MYSTERY

I am the wind that breathes upon the sea

I am the wave of the ocean

I am the murmur of the billows

I am the ox of the seven combats

I am the vulture upon the rocks

I am the beam of the sun

I am the fairest of plants

I am a wild boar in valour

I am a salmon in the water

I am a lake in plain

I am a word of science

I am the point of the lance of battle

I am the God who created in the head the fire

Who is it who throws light into the meeting on the mountain?

Who announces the ages of the moon?

Who teaches the place where couches the sun? (If not I?)

My amateur researching of Celtic mythology has led me to believe that to a certain degree it is like researching poetry anyway. A lot of what we know was taken or translated from ancient Gaelic poems/songs, and there is a lot of influence to be found from nature which is very reminiscent of all our searches into Bran's arc.

Hi again @Wizz-The-Smith -- oh cheeky wizard, wisewizardous one, master of words and hollows and silences, and deft catcher of diaphanous dragons -- I want to revisit this poem you discovered by Amergin, since it's utterly beautiful and enigmatic; and I was drawn to recall it recently while reading back on the old threads for voting purposes, in particular @Sly Wren's thread on 'Jon, Ghost and the Horn which wakes the sleepers', which uses as its premise the similar invocation called 'Song of Amergin' (to which I believe Sly Wren was originally alerted by @Kingmonkey, according to her acknowledgements). Essentially, these two poems, namely 'The Mystery' and the 'Song of Amergin,' seem to be variations on the same poem, in which a godlike presence (not unlike the 'old gods') speaks and invokes the elements...

By all accounts, this poem is believed to be one of Ireland's oldest poems, if not the oldest of all:

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From Wikipedia:

Amergin Glúingel ("white knees") or Glúnmar ("big knee") is a bard and judge for the Milesians in the Irish Mythological Cycle. He was appointed Chief Ollam of Ireland by his two brothers the kings of Ireland. A number of poems attributed to Amergin are part of the Milesian mythology.

[The smith-bard Amergin sounds like 'Brandon' to me -- you know, no need to specify which one, since I'm pretty sure that many of them, at one time or another, 'learned the song of the earth', but that's not a tale that bears repeating having been repeated so often before....]

One of the seven sons of Míl Espáine, he took part in the Milesian conquest of Ireland from the Tuatha Dé Danann, in revenge for their great-uncle Íth, who had been treacherously killed by the three kings of the Tuatha Dé Danann, Mac Cuill, Mac Cecht and Mac Gréine. They landed at the estuary of Inber Scéne, named after Amergin's wife Scéne, who had died at sea. The three queens of the Tuatha Dé Danann, (Banba, Ériu and Fódla), gave, in turn, permission for Amergin and his people to settle in Ireland. Each of the sisters required Amergin to name the island after each of them, which he did: Ériu is the origin of the modern name Éire, while Banba and Fódla are used as poetic names for Ireland, much as Albion is for Great Britain.

The Milesians had to win the island by engaging in battle with the three kings, their druids and warriors.

[this sounds like a greenseer war!]

Amergin acted as an impartial judge for the parties, setting the rules of engagement. The Milesians agreed to leave the island and retreat a short distance back into the ocean beyond the ninth wave, a magical boundary.

[of course, it would have to be 'the ninth wave'...]

Upon a signal, they moved toward the beach, but the druids of the Tuatha Dé Danann raised a magical storm to keep them from reaching land. However, Amergin sang an invocation calling upon the spirit of Ireland that has come to be known as The Song of Amergin, and he was able to part the storm and bring the ship safely to land. There were heavy losses on all sides, with more than one major battle, but the Milesians carried the day.

[I'm not sure if it similarly lies in our Bran's destiny to bring his own ship 'safely to land' -- but he will surely 'part the storm' with his song.]

There are several versions of the song, having been translated from Old Gaelic. The best known is the translation and arrangement (of which there are in turn multiple versions!) by Robert Graves :

SONG OF AMERGIN

Amergin, Bard of the Milesians, lays claim to the Land of Ireland

I am a stag: of seven tines,

I am a flood: across a plain,

I am a wind: on a deep lake,

I am a tear: the Sun lets fall,

I am a hawk: above the cliff,

I am a thorn: beneath the nail,

I am a wonder: among flowers,

I am a wizard: who but I

Sets the cool head aflame with smoke?

I am a spear: that roars for blood,

I am a salmon: in a pool,

I am a lure: from paradise,

I am a hill: where poets walk,

I am a boar: ruthless and red,

I am a breaker: threatening doom,

I am a tide: that drags to death,

I am an infant: who but I

Peeps from the unhewn dolmen, arch?

I am the womb: of every holt,

I am the blaze: on every hill,

I am the queen: of every hive,

I am the shield: for every head,

I am the tomb: of every hope.

'Song of Amergin' translated by Robert Graves, from 'The White Goddess'

[ @Sly Wren made the excellent observation that the tenor of the verse is reminiscent of that of the Night's Watch words, the same with which Sam magically unlocked the Black Gate]

Other versions:

from "The Romance of Taliesin"

I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck.
I have been a boat on the sea.
I fled vehemently... on the foam of water.
I have been a drop in the air.
I journeyed as an eagle.
God made me of blossom.
I have been a tree-stump in a shovel.

I fled as a spear-head of woe to such as wish for woe.
I have been a blue salmon.
I have been a spotted snake upon a hill.
I fled as a bristly boar seen in a ravine.
I have been a wave breaking on the beach.
On a boundless sea I was set adrift.

from "The Legend of Finn Mac Cool"

I am a stag of seven tines.
Over the flooded world
I am borne by the wind.
I descend in tears like dew, I lie glittering,
I fly aloft like a griffon to my nest on the cliff,
I bloom among the lovliest flowers
I am both the oak and the lightening that strikes it.

I embolden the spearmen,
I teach the councillors their wisdom,
I inspire the poets,
I rove the hills like a ravening boar,
I roar like the winter sea,
I return again like the receeding wave,
Who but I can unfold the secrets of the unhewn dolman?

'The Song of Amergin' has also been set to music by Lisa Gerrard and Dead can Dance in this haunting, rather spine-tingling arrangement:

(the video might seem a bit boring, but the other versions I found online were either staid or barely verging on some kind of gothic pornography at times, so I thought I'd best refrain from invoking more than I'd bargained for, settling instead for picturesque scanning shots of the Irish coastline -- I think I may have even espied some of those 'hollow hills' at the base of the cliffs (lots of underground water action in line with my artistic sensibilities)..!

These are their lyrics in the Gaelic with the accompanying English translation:

Dead Can Dance – The Song Of Amergin Lyrics

Am gaeth I m-muir
Am tond trethan
Am fuaim mara
Am dam secht ndirend
Am s? Ig I n-aill
Am d? Are gr? Ne
Am cain lubai
Am torc ar gail
Am he I l-lind
Am loch I m-maig
Am br? A ndai
Am g? I i fodb fras feochtu
Am d? Delbas do chind codnu
Coiche nod gleith clochur sl? Be
Cia on co tagair aesa? Scai
Cia du I l-laig fuiniud gr? Ne
Cia beir buar o thig tethrach
Cia buar tethrach tibi
Cia d? M, cia d? Delbas faebru a ndind ailsiu
C? Inte I'm gai, cainte gaithe

I am the wind on the sea
I am the stormy wave
I am the sound of the ocean
I am the bull with seven horns
I am the hawk on the cliff face
I am the sun's tear
I am the beautiful flower
I am the boar on the rampage
I am the salmon in the pool
I am the lake on the plain
I am the defiant word
I am the spear charging into battle
I am the god who put fire in your head
Who made the trails through stone mountains
Who knows the age of the moon
Who knows where the setting sun rests
Who took the cattle from the house of the warcrow
Who pleases the warcrow's cattle
What bull, what god created the mountain skyline
The cutting word, the cold word

Am gaeth i m-muir,
Am tond trethan,
Am fuaim mara,
Am dam secht ndirend,
Am séig i n-aill,
Am dér gréne,
Am cain lubai,
Am torc ar gail,
Am he i l-lind,
Am loch i m-maig,
Am brí a ndai,
Am bri danae,
Am bri i fodb fras feochtu,Am dé delbas do chind codnu,
Coiche nod gleith clochur slébe?Cia on co tagair aesa éscai?
Cia du i l-laig fuiniud gréne?

Cia beir buar o thig tethrach?
Cia buar tethrach tibi?
Cia dám, cia dé delbas faebru a ndind ailsiu?
Cáinte im gai, cainte gaithe.

I am Wind on Sea,
I am Ocean-wave,
I am Roar of Sea,
I am Stag of Seven Tines,
I am a Hawk on a Cliff,
I am shining tear of the Sun,
I am Fairest among Herbs,
I am Boar for Boldness,
I am Salmon in Pool,
I am a Lake on a Plain,
I am a Hill of Poetry,
I am a Word of Skill,
I am the Point of a Weapon (that pours forth
combat),
I am God who fashions Fire for a Head.
Who knows the secrets of the
Unhewn Dolmen?
Who (but I) announces the Ages of the Moon?
Who (but I) know the place where falleth
the Sunset?
Who calls the Cattle from the House of Tethra?
On whom do the cattle of Tethra smile?
Who is the troop, the god who fashions edges
in a fortress of gangrene?
(I am) a Song on a Spear,
an Enchantments of Wind.

The latter yet another rendition from https://songofamergin.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/an-introduction-to-the-song-of-amergin/

I like that in these last two they've emphasized the power of the word -- 'the cutting word, the cold word' -- and the 'song on a spear' -- which reminds me of GRRM's notion of the 'song of swords' and the 'dance of dragons' -- and the omnipresence of the 'enchantments of wind' -- because, as we've been told, 'Words are wind'!

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thanks for the shout out RR, and thanks for Jabberwocky!

Glad you enjoyed it! Let the maddening inversions proceed apace...

Isobel Harper · January 6, 2017

There were three ra'ens sat on a tree,

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

They were as black as black might be,

With a down.

The one of them said to his mate,

Where shall we our breakfast take?

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

Down in yonder green field,

Down, a down, hey down, hey down,

There lies a knight slain 'neath his shield,

With a down.

His hounds they lie down at his feet,

So well they do their master keep,

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down.

His hawks they fly so eagerly,

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

No other fowl dare come him nigh,

With a down.

Down there comes a fallow doe

As great with young as might she go

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

She lifted up his bloody head,

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

And kissed his wounds that were so red,

With a down.

She got him up upon her back,

And carried him to earthen lake,

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

She buried him before the prime

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

She was dead herself ere e'en-song time,

With a down.

God send every gentleman,

Such hawks, such hounds, and such a leman.

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

- The Three Ravens, an English ballad

I'm under the impression that GRRM is making an allusion to this song with the Corbrays. Corbray is likely derived from "corb," an older English form of raven. Their sigil is three ravens carrying three hearts. In the ballad, three ravens wish to feed on a dead knight, who is guarded by three beings dear to him: his hounds, his hawks, and his lover. (Leman is an old term for "paramour" or "lover." @Seams lemon/leman wordplay?)

The lover is also described as a "doe" and as having died, which some interpret as the woman being reincarnated into the doe or the woman being an enchantress that uses the doe to protect the knight. Sounds like warging, yes?

ravenous reader · January 6, 2017

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

There were three ra'ens sat on a tree,

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

They were as black as black might be,

With a down.

The one of them said to his mate,

Where shall we our breakfast take?

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

Down in yonder green field,

Down, a down, hey down, hey down,

There lies a knight slain 'neath his shield,

With a down.

His hounds they lie down at his feet,

So well they do their master keep,

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down.

His hawks they fly so eagerly,

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

No other fowl dare come him nigh,

With a down.

Down there comes a fallow doe

As great with young as might she go

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

She lifted up his bloody head,

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

And kissed his wounds that were so red,

With a down.

She got him up upon her back,

And carried him to earthen lake,

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

She buried him before the prime

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

She was dead herself ere e'en-song time,

With a down.

God send every gentleman,

Such hawks, such hounds, and such a leman.

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

- The Three Ravens, an English ballad

I'm under the impression that GRRM is making an allusion to this song with the Corbrays. Corbray is likely derived from "corb," an older English form of raven. Their sigil is three ravens carrying three hearts. In the ballad, three ravens wish to feed on a dead knight, who is guarded by three beings dear to him: his hounds, his hawks, and his lover. (Leman is an old term for "paramour" or "lover." @Seams lemon/leman wordplay?)

The lover is also described as a "doe" and as having died, which some interpret as the woman being reincarnated into the doe or the woman being an enchantress that uses the doe to protect the knight. Sounds like warging, yes?

Thanks for contributing Isobel -- I'm quite taken by this poem/ballad; it lingers with its mesmerizing repetition of 'derry' and 'down' -- and I love 'hearing' your voice on any thread; you're well named (Iso - bell)! Please stop by again!

Good catch on George's allusion to the Corbrays!

We absolutely have to share that pun of yours 'leman' and 'lemon' with @Seams! So 'leman' as in 'lemon pie' is a kind of 'sweetie pie' term of endearment for a lover, tinged with the flavor of the illicit (a 'mistress'). I found this website compiling nicknames for sweethearts in which it's quite interesting to note the number of baked goods, confectionaries, or other comestibles. No wonder 'Sweet(not)petyr' wishes to make a 'leman-pie' out of Sansa...

The loyal hounds lying down at the feet remind me of the direwolves, particularly the way they are depicted in death in the crypt tableaux; I like your idea of the woman 'warging' the deer as a kind of guardian angel spirit watching over her love, although it's tragic she also dies by the end in the self-sacrifice of guarding her beloved's body from the crows. I've listened to several versions of the song, all of which in their melancholy bring to mind a 'Lady Forlorn', in keeping with our Corbray theme!

Herewith, three different versions of the song, all different to each other; you tell me which you prefer:

-- by Malinky

-- Sonne Hagal

-- Peter, Paul and Mary

ravenous reader · January 6, 2017

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Down a down, hey down, hey down,

No other fowl dare come him nigh,

With a down.

Down there comes a fallow doe

As great with young as might she go

With a down, derry, derry, derry down, down

As an etymological addendum, a point of trivia which ties into GRRM's theme of mystical tree communion, the word 'derry' is derived from an Old Irish/Sanskrit word meaning 'oak' which was the tree sacred to druids (in fact, the word 'druid' is derived from the same root):

Quote

Its name (the Oak tree) derives from the Anglo-Saxon word, ac, but in Irish the word is 'daur', and in Welsh 'dar' or 'derw', probably cognate with the Greek, 'drus'. Some scholars consider this the origin of the term 'Druid’, since Druids have always been associated with sacred groves, and particularly oak forests. Dense forests of oak once covered most of Northern Europe in those days, so it is not surprising to find this tree help most sacred by people who ‘live in oak forests, used oak timber for building, oak sticks for fuel, and oak acorns for food and fodder.’ (1) Combined with the Indo-European root ‘wid’: to know, ‘Druid’ may have referred to those with ‘knowledge of the oak’, the ‘Wise Ones of the Oakwood’. The Sanskrit word, ‘Duir’, gave rise both to the word for oak and the English word ‘door’, which suggests that this tree stands as an opening into greater wisdom, perhaps an entryway into the otherworld itself.

We first learn about the oak as sacred to the Druids in the well-known passage from the writings of Pliny, who lived in Gaul during the 1st century CE. He writes that the Druids performed all their religious rites in oak-groves, where they gathered mistletoe from the trees with a golden sickle. Strabo also describes three Galatian tribes (Celts living in Asia Minor) as holding their councils at a place called, ‘Drunemeton’, the ‘oak grove sanctuary’. The 2nd century Maximus of Tyre, describes the Celts as worshipping Zeus-- probably referring to the Romano-Celtic god of thunder, Taranis- as a tall oak tree. Elsewhere we learn that the Druids of Gaul ate acorns as a way of divining the future. Another Roman writer referred to them as ‘Dryads’ whom he defined as ‘those who delight in the oaks’. (2)

We can never know for sure whether the Druids of the British Isles and Ireland practiced their religion in oak-groves like their continental cousins, but it seems likely. We know that the insular Celts worshipped in groves, or ‘nematon’, and the evidence from Ireland in particular makes it likely that these were oaks. Ireland was covered with oak trees, whose presence still echoes down the centuries in place names such as Derry, Derrylanan, Derrybawn (whiteoak), Derrykeighan and, of course, Londonderry, once Derry Calgagh, the oakwood of a fierce warrior of that name.

Many early Christian churches were situated in oak-groves, probably because they were once pagan places of worship. Kildare, where St. Brigid founded her abbey, derives from ‘Cill-dara’, the Church of the Oak. Legend says she loved and blessed a great oak and held it so sacred that no-one dare harm a leaf of it. Under its shade she built her cell (This ties in neatly with pre-Christian tradition, as the pagan goddess Brigid was daughter to the Sun-God Dagda to whom the oak was sacred).

St. Columcille, also known as Columba, whom many believe to have been a Druid before he embraced the new faith, likewise founded churches in an oak-grove at Derry (Doire), the monastery at Durrow (Dairmag, 'the Plain of the Oaks') and a monastery at Kells where he lived under an oak tree.

From: http://www.druidry.org/library/trees/tree-lore-oak

LmL · January 6, 2017

59 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Elsewhere we learn that the Druids of Gaul ate acorns as a way of divining the future.

Acorn paste as a clear foreshadowing to weirwood paste then. That's cool, because I had picked up Jojen paste foreshadowing tied to the acorn paste they eat quite often on their journey.

Isobel Harper · January 6, 2017

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks for contributing Isobel -- I'm quite taken by this poem/ballad; it lingers with its mesmerizing repetition of 'derry' and 'down' -- and I love 'hearing' your voice on any thread; you're well named (Iso - bell)! Please stop by again!

Good catch on George's allusion to the Corbrays!

Aw, thanks! :wub:

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The loyal hounds lying down at the feet remind me of the direwolves, particularly the way they are depicted in death in the crypt tableaux; I like your idea of the woman 'warging' the deer as a kind of guardian angel spirit watching over her love, although it's tragic she also dies by the end in the self-sacrifice of guarding her beloved's body from the crows. I've listened to several versions of the song, all of which in their melancholy bring to mind a 'Lady Forlorn', in keeping with our Corbray theme!

The song kinda reminds me of Rhaegar and Lyanna, Rhaegar dying in battle and Lyanna with child dying shortly thereafter. Sadly, Rhaegar wasn't saved from scavenger birds; Jaime claims that crows feasted on him after he died. Corbray's sigil includes ravens carrying away three hearts, somewhat of an inverse to the song. I can imagine the "Lady Forlorn" being the lover but that she couldn't bury her knight in time before he is scavenged.

This is my favorite version of Three Ravens. It's composed by John Harle and is featured in Simon Schama's History of Britain.

ravenous reader · January 6, 2017

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

The song kinda reminds me of Rhaegar and Lyanna, Rhaegar dying in battle and Lyanna with child dying shortly thereafter. Sadly, Rhaegar wasn't saved from scavenger birds; Jaime claims that crows feasted on him after he died. Corbray's sigil includes ravens carrying away three hearts, somewhat of an inverse to the song. I can imagine the "Lady Forlorn" being the lover but that she couldn't bury her knight in time before he is scavenged.

This is my favorite version of Three Ravens. It's composed by John Harle and is featured in Simon Schama's History of Britain.

Thanks for sharing, Isobel! That version is even more elegiac and intense than the others. You're right about the tragic outcome of the story having echoes of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Is the 'inversion' to which you're referring that instead of 3 ravens taking away the deceased man's heart, the 3 loyal hearts (figuratively represented by the hounds, hawks and magical doe-woman holding the dead man's heart in their hands, so to speak) prevent that from happening? The idea of holding someone's heart in ones hands is also reminiscent of the Irish Claddagh ring design. What do you think the Corbray sigil bodes in terms of Sansa's arc?

9 hours ago, LmL said:

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

the Druids of Gaul ate acorns as a way of divining the future.

Acorn paste as a clear foreshadowing to weirwood paste then. That's cool, because I had picked up Jojen paste foreshadowing tied to the acorn paste they eat quite often on their journey.

GRRM seems to have combined the mythology of the oak and ash (Yggdrasil) for his weirwood mysticism. Why does the acorn paste eaten on the journey remind you of Jojen's sacrifice specifically? Might the 'Darrys' be related to oaks/weirwoods somehow ('derry' and 'darry' basically have the same root)?

ravenous reader · January 7, 2017

How the 'hunters become the hunted'; and greenseers in all their guises ought to take care in that which they meddle:

And how poetry belongs to all of us, even 'replicants'... like Roy the tragically poetic warrior, who only wanted a little more time...

'I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.

All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain...

Time to die.'

The look in Harrison Ford's eyes at the end -- what a great actor!

Isobel Harper · January 7, 2017

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks for sharing, Isobel! That version is even more elegiac and intense than the others. You're right about the tragic outcome of the story having echoes of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Is the 'inversion' to which you're referring that instead of 3 ravens taking away the deceased man's heart, the 3 loyal hearts (figuratively represented by the hounds, hawks and magical doe-woman holding the dead man's heart in their hands, so to speak) prevent that from happening? The idea of holding someone's heart in ones hands is also reminiscent of the Irish Claddagh ring design. What do you think the Corbray sigil bodes in terms of Sansa's arc?

GRRM seems to have combined the mythology of the oak and ash (Yggdrasil) for his weirwood mysticism. Why does the acorn paste eaten on the journey remind you of Jojen's sacrifice specifically? Might the 'Darrys' be related to oaks/weirwoods somehow ('derry' and 'darry' basically have the same root)?

In the song, the knight is being protected so that he can be properly buried, undesecrated. (And if you think about it, this relates to the Starks and their role as Hades figures.) The inverse would be the hound, hawks, and leman FAILING to protect his corpse.

When we love someone, we feel like they are a part of our heart; "My heart" is sometimes a pet name we use. The Corbray sigil alludes to (imo) this song, but to a FAILURE instead of a success at keeping the knight's body undesecrated. The hound, hawks, and leman love the knight. The hearts in the Corbray sigil are pieces of the knight, part of THEIR heart, part of something they love - which, due to their failure, the ravens carry away.

As for how Corbray relates to Sansa... Lady Forlorn reminds me of Sansa losing Lady. Forlorn means "lonely" or "alone," which Sansa is without Lady. Also, Forlorn is related linguistically to verlieren, the German word for "to lose." Sansa LOST her direwolf LADY.

But wait, there's more. LF compares Sansa to a bear cub in the snow castle scene. Ursa Major was once known as the "Ploughman" or the "Wayn," an antiquated word for wheel. I'm glad @ravenous_reader clarified the meaning of derry. I totally agree with the derry/Darry connection. Darry's sigil is a ploughman. And given the meaning of derry, it seems "waynwood" is oak as well.

Given all this, Sansa turns out to be related to Corbray, Waynwood, and Darry by "blood." She's literally related to Corbray and Waynwood via Joyce Stark who married into the cadet branch of House Royce. She's related to Darry "by blood" because Lady was executed at Darry. That is, she has familial connection to the first and spiritual connection to the latter.

ravenous reader · January 7, 2017

On 1/6/2017 at 11:06 AM, ravenous reader said:

This is my favorite version of Three Ravens. It's composed by John Harle and is featured in Simon Schama's History of Britain.

16 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

In the song, the knight is being protected so that he can be properly buried, undesecrated. (And if you think about it, this relates to the Starks and their role as Hades figures.) The inverse would be the hound, hawks, and leman FAILING to protect his corpse.

Good point. That reminds me that Ned's bones are still at large, as @sweetsunray reminded us in her excellent essay 'Them Bones' (you've read it?)

It's also reminiscent of Ned's insistence that Cersei would never have Lady's fur (making Cersei a kind of scavenger of the dead, in addition to predator) and accordingly gave strict instructions for Lady's bones to be buried in the lichyard at Winterfell to prevent the defilement of the wolf's body (very noble of Ned, but a bit ironic considering he was also the one who had taken her life -- bless him and his honor, dear Ned!)

Quote

AGOT-Eddard III

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell."
"All that way?" Jory said, astonished.
"All that way," Ned affirmed. "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin."

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

When the raven came, bearing a letter marked with Father's own seal and written in Sansa's hand, the cruel truth seemed no less incredible. Bran would never forget the look on Robb's face as he stared at their sister's words. "She says Father conspired at treason with the king's brothers," he read. "King Robert is dead, and Mother and I are summoned to the Red Keep to swear fealty to Joffrey. She says we must be loyal, and when she marries Joffrey she will plead with him to spare our lord father's life." His fingers closed into a fist, crushing Sansa's letter between them. "And she says nothing of Arya, nothing, not so much as a word. Damn her! What's wrong with the girl?"

Bran felt all cold inside. "She lost her wolf," he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father's guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady's bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

Their grandfather, old Lord Rickard, had gone as well, with his son Brandon who was Father's brother, and two hundred of his best men. None had ever returned. And Father had gone south, with Arya and Sansa, and Jory and Hullen and Fat Tom and the rest, and later Mother and Ser Rodrik had gone, and they hadn't come back either. And now Robb meant to go. Not to King's Landing and not to swear fealty, but to Riverrun, with a sword in his hand. And if their lord father were truly a prisoner, that could mean his death for a certainty. It frightened Bran more than he could say.

Quote

When we love someone, we feel like they are a part of our heart; "My heart" is sometimes a pet name we use. The Corbray sigil alludes to (imo) this song, but to a FAILURE instead of a success at keeping the knight's body undesecrated. The hound, hawks, and leman love the knight. The hearts in the Corbray sigil are pieces of the knight, part of THEIR heart, part of something they love - which, due to their failure, the ravens carry away.

What is the origin of the Corbray sigil? Could it be a nod from GRRM that they are treacherous? LF later reveals to Sansa that Lyn Corbray, who has a rather predatory look and manner, is in cahoots with him. I wonder if Sansa in particular is in danger, considering that lecherous comment of Corbray's where he remarks that Sansa is 'ripe for the plucking' which reminds me of the ravens plucking the hearts (including Sansa's?!) and flying off with them!

I was wondering if the three hearts might refer to the Battle of Redgrass Field, in which Daemon Targaryen and his sons were slain (and their bodies left for ravens to scavenge, presumably) -- the hearts of the three perhaps representing the hearts carried off by ravens. The ones who slew him were ravens, including Bloodraven, his Ravens Teeth, and Gwayne Corbray who was also involved, albeit indirectly in Daemon's death. After Daemon had bested Corbray in the duel, he forebore from killing him, allowing him time to leave the battlefield in order to get medical attention, a most chivalrous gesture -- sparing Corbray from the fate of dying there and being scavenged by ravens, but also simultaneously assuring his own death, since the extended duel with Corbray combined with his delay, allowed Bloodraven and the Ravens Teeth enough time to assume their position on the ridge which gained them the advantage and swung the battle. In short, Corbray was saved from death and desecration by Daemon; however, Daemon met the reverse fate. Perhaps the insinuation is that Corbray fought on the wrong side -- Bloodraven was ruthless; Daemon was chivalrous.

What do you think -- you know more about this stuff than I do?!

Quote

The Sworn Sword

“I’d always heard that it was Baelor Breakspear who won the battle,” said Dunk. “Him and Prince Maekar.”

“The hammer and the anvil?” The old man’s mustache gave a twitch. “The singers leave out much and more. Daemon was the Warrior himself that day. No man could stand before him. He broke Lord Arryn’s van to pieces and slew the Knight of Ninestars and Wild Wyl Waynwood before coming up against Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard. For near an hour they danced together on their horses, wheeling and circling and slashing as men died all around them. It’s said that whenever Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashed, you could hear the sound for a league around. It was half a song and half a scream, they say. But when at last the Lady faltered, Blackfyre clove through Ser Gwayne’s helm and left him blind and bleeding. Daemon dismounted to see that his fallen foe was not trampled, and commanded Redtusk to carry him back to the maesters in the rear. And there was his mortal error, for the Raven’s Teeth had gained the top of Weeping Ridge, and Bloodraven saw his half brother’s royal standard three hundred yards away, and Daemon and his sons beneath it. He slew Aegon first, the elder of the twins, for he knew that Daemon would never leave the boy whilst warmth lingered in his body, though white shafts fell like rain. Nor did he, though seven arrows pierced him, driven as much by sorcery as by Bloodraven’s bow. Young Aemon took up Blackfyre when the blade slipped from his dying father’s fingers, so Bloodraven slew him, too, the younger of the twins. Thus perished the black dragon and his sons.

Quote

As for how Corbray relates to Sansa... Lady Forlorn reminds me of Sansa losing Lady. Forlorn means "lonely" or "alone," which Sansa is without Lady. Also, Forlorn is related linguistically to verlieren, the German word for "to lose." Sansa LOST her direwolf LADY.

That's brilliant Isobel -- 'verloren' and 'verlieren'; good one! So Sansa is also the embodiment of a sword -- Lady Forlorn with its blood red stone in the shape of a heart in the pommel, indicating that though ladies' hearts may bleed, that doesn't mean they are frail; indeed, their blades may nevertheless be sharp ...Watch out Littlefinger!

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A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

Petyr was seated at the trestle table with a cup of wine to hand, looking over a crisp white parchment. He glanced up as the Lords Declarant filed in. "My lords, be welcome. And you as well, my lady. The ascent is wearisome, I know. Please be seated. Alayne, my sweet, more wine for our noble guests."

"As you say, Father." The candles had been lighted, she was pleased to see; the solar smelled of nutmeg and other costly spices. She went to fetch the flagon whilst the visitors arranged themselves side by side . . . all save Nestor Royce, who hesitated before walking around the table to take the empty chair beside Lord Petyr, and Lyn Corbray, who went to stand beside the hearth instead. The heart-shaped ruby in the pommel of his sword shone redly as he warmed his hands. Alayne saw him smile at Ser Lothor Brune. Ser Lyn is very handsome, for an older man, she thought, but I do not like the way he smiles.

'The Lady,' as the sword is called, would also have been lost on the Redgrass Field, had Daemon not so graciously intervened to spare Corbray.

Quote

But wait, there's more. LF compares Sansa to a bear cub in the snow castle scene. Ursa Major was once known as the "Ploughman" or the "Wayn," an antiquated word for wheel. I'm glad @ravenous_reader clarified the meaning of derry. I totally agree with the derry/Darry connection. Darry's sigil is a ploughman. And given the meaning of derry, it seems "waynwood" is oak as well.

House Waynwood is of Ironoaks (and make 'Ironoaks Castle' their seat) in the Vale! Their sigil is a broken ploughman's wheel on green. Not sure what the broken wheel is supposed to signify?

Quote

Given all this, Sansa turns out to be related to Corbray, Waynwood, and Darry by "blood." She's literally related to Corbray and Waynwood via Joyce Stark who married into the cadet branch of House Royce. She's related to Darry "by blood" because Lady was executed at Darry. That is, she has familial connection to the first and spiritual connection to the latter.

Wow -- I'd forgotten that Lady was executed at Darry!

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Arya was glad to hear that the castle of the Darrys would be burned. That was where they'd brought her when she'd been caught after her fight with Joffrey, and where the queen had made her father kill Sansa's wolf. It deserves to burn.

Isobel Harper · January 7, 2017

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Good point. That reminds me that Ned's bones are still at large, as @sweetsunray reminded us in her excellent essay 'Them Bones' (you've read it?)

It's also reminiscent of Ned's insistence that Cersei would never have Lady's fur (making Cersei a kind of scavenger of the dead, in addition to predator) and accordingly gave strict instructions for Lady's bones to be buried in the lichyard at Winterfell to prevent the defilement of the wolf's body (very noble of Ned, but a bit ironic considering he was also the one who had taken her life -- bless him and his honor, dear Ned!)

(Snip)

I was wondering if the three hearts might refer to the Battle of Redgrass Field, in which Daemon Targaryen and his sons were slain (and their bodies left for ravens to scavenge, presumably) -- the hearts of the three perhaps representing the hearts carried off by ravens. The ones who slew him were ravens, including Bloodraven, his Ravens Teeth, and Gwayne Corbray who was also involved, albeit indirectly in Daemon's death. After Daemon had bested Corbray in the duel, he forebore from killing him, allowing him time to leave the battlefield in order to get medical attention, a most chivalrous gesture -- sparing Corbray from the fate of dying there and being scavenged by ravens, but also simultaneously assuring his own death, since the extended duel with Corbray combined with his delay, allowed Bloodraven and the Ravens Teeth enough time to assume their position on the ridge which gained them the advantage and swung the battle. In short, Corbray was saved from death and desecration by Daemon; however, Daemon met the reverse fate. Perhaps the insinuation is that Corbray fought on the wrong side -- Bloodraven was ruthless; Daemon was chivalrous.

What do you think -- you know more about this stuff than I do?!

Yes, I've read the Ned's Bones thread. It was an interesting read, as sweetsunray's threads usually are.

I had forgotten that a Corbray was the KG knight saved by Daemon. Hmmm, I notice an echo between Ned and Daemon. Both men's honor resulted in their deaths. Both treated a "Lady's" body with honor. (Ned has Lady buried at Winterfell, and Daemon saves "Lady Forlorn's" (Gwayne Corbray's) body from being trampled and defiled; although Gwayne ultimately survives.) Despite this honorable act, both men's own bodies were not properly buried. And neither were their sons'.

As for other ways to interpret Corbray's sigil, dragons and ravens represent comets in mythical astronomy. Black birds, black dragons... you could be on to something with regard to Daemon and his sons being represented in the Corbray sigil. Additionally, the black comet represents the comet after impact with the moon. The hearts could represent part of the moon's heart or the sun/sunlight, which the black comet "took away." As for the sigil's in-world origins, I don't think that's been clarified.

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

What is the origin of the Corbray sigil? Could it be a nod from GRRM that they are treacherous? LF later reveals to Sansa that Lyn Corbray, who has a rather predatory look and manner, is in cahoots with him. I wonder if Sansa in particular is in danger, considering that lecherous comment of Corbray's where he remarks that Sansa is 'ripe for the plucking' which reminds me of the ravens plucking the hearts (including Sansa's?!) and flying off with them!

Lyn Corbray is definitely treacherous and shouldn't be trusted, even by LF who claims to have the man in his pocket. There are predictions out there that someone will kidnap Sansa from the Vale - perhaps by Lyn? Touching on mythical astronomy again, Sansa represents the red comet (per @LmL). The red comet is being carried away in the sigil.

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

House Waynwood is of Ironoaks (and make 'Ironoaks Castle' their seat) in the Vale! Their sigil is a broken ploughman's wheel on green. Not sure what the broken wheel is supposed to signify?

So the Waynwood sigil IS a ploughman's wheel? Wow. I didn't realize that.

No idea what to make of the wheel being broken. If "time is a wheel for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging," then a broken wheel could represent innovation, changing man/culture attitudes or norms, or breaking tropes? (Just throwing out some ideas.)

ravenous reader · January 7, 2017

16 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

As for other ways to interpret Corbray's sigil, dragons and ravens represent comets in mythical astronomy. Black birds, black dragons... you could be on to something with regard to Daemon and his sons being represented in the Corbray sigil. Additionally, the black comet represents the comet after impact with the moon. The hearts could represent part of the moon's heart or the sun/sunlight, which the black comet "took away."

Ha ha -- I had almost forgotten the mythical astronomy aspect, although I am exposed to it constantly!

Paging @LmL -- you agree with Isobel's interpretation of the Corbray sigil? Any further ideas...

16 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Lyn Corbray is definitely treacherous and shouldn't be trusted, even by LF who claims to have the man in his pocket. There are predictions out there that someone will kidnap Sansa from the Vale - perhaps by Lyn? Touching on mythical astronomy again, Sansa represents the red comet (per @LmL). The red comet is being carried away in the sigil.

Regarding his doublecrossing nature, there's a suggestion of just that in the new book:

Spoiler

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I

"How kind of him." Corbray's lips drew back in something that might have been meant as a smile, though it gave Alayne a chill. "But what need have I for heirs when I am landless and like to remain so, thanks to our Lord Protector? No. Tell your lord father I need none of his brood mares."

The venom in his voice was so thick that for a moment she almost forgot that Lyn Corbray was actually her father's catspaw, bought and paid for. Or was he? Perhaps, instead of being Petyr's man pretending to be Petyr's foe, he was actually his foe pretending to be his man pretending to be his foe.

Just thinking about it was enough to make her head spin. Alayne turned abruptly from the yard...and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her. His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall. "My lady. My pardons if I took you unawares."

As I understand LmL's interpretation of Sansa's current predicament, she represents a piece of the fire moon (like the black Giant's lance) embedded in the ice moon (Vale, mountains of the moon), the revenant who is bound to return -- with a vengeance!

16 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

No idea what to make of the wheel being broken. If "time is a wheel for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging," then a broken wheel could represent innovation, changing man/culture attitudes or norms, or breaking tropes? (Just throwing out some ideas.)

I don't think Dany is the one to 'break the wheel,' as the mummers have suggested with their dialogue in Meereen. If anyone is to succeed at tinkering with time, it's Bran (who currently resides in a weirwood, which as we've identified has many mystical features in common with oaks and ploughs, and which means he exists out of time, not bound by its flow). Also, continuing the astronomical vein, it's significant that ploughs are associated with the big dipper constellation, as you've noted, so breaking that wheel would imply manipulating the stars. The equivalent of the LOTR's 'ring of power' is the bronze circlet of the crown of the King of Winter -- bronze as it so happens represents astronomy in the Maesters' link system. I think Bran is destined to journey into space to put right this meteor business once and for all -- that would be akin to breaking the vicious cycle!

LmL · January 8, 2017

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Ha ha -- I had almost forgotten the mythical astronomy aspect, although I am exposed to it constantly!

Paging @LmL -- you agree with Isobel's interpretation of the Corbray sigil? Any further ideas...

Regarding his doublecrossing nature, there's a suggestion of just that in the new book:

Hide contents

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I

"How kind of him." Corbray's lips drew back in something that might have been meant as a smile, though it gave Alayne a chill. "But what need have I for heirs when I am landless and like to remain so, thanks to our Lord Protector? No. Tell your lord father I need none of his brood mares."

The venom in his voice was so thick that for a moment she almost forgot that Lyn Corbray was actually her father's catspaw, bought and paid for. Or was he? Perhaps, instead of being Petyr's man pretending to be Petyr's foe, he was actually his foe pretending to be his man pretending to be his foe.

Just thinking about it was enough to make her head spin. Alayne turned abruptly from the yard...and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her. His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall. "My lady. My pardons if I took you unawares."

@Isobel Harper has the Corbray sigil more or less correct, imo - ravens are black meteor symbols (very important ones) and bloody hearts speak of the hearts of fallen stars and bleeding stars. Red and black is the ultimate color combination for the meteors in flight - black stone, red fire. Lady Forlorn is a great Lightbringer symbol, as are all Valyrian swords - Lady F is always hungry and thirsty, just as Lightbringer drank NN's blood and strength and soul and courage.

Essentially, it's like this: the sun sticks his comet-prick/sword into the 'fire moon', and the children take two forms: the black meteors, burning red, and the remaining half of the comet itself. When Dany emerges from the pyre, for example, she is like the reborn (transformed) comet, with the dragons being her meteor children. From a certain perspective, the remianing comet half - Lightbinger - is like the reborn moon, because LB drank NN's soul and whatnot. That's why I keep harping on the idea that LB is the reborn AA and the reborn NN, the reborn sun AND the reborn moon - just as you as a bit of both of your parents. So, the reborn comet (the surviving half) can be AA reborn or in Dany's case, NN reborn may be more accurate.

The Corbray sigil shows the three meteor heads of the dragon, just as Dany has three dragon children. I don't know how many meteors there were, but it is almost always expressed as either 3 or a thousand, or both. So Corbray's Lady Forlorn represents Lightbringer the reborn comet, with the three raven hearts on the sigil being the dragon meteor children.

There is a great metaphor for the Corbray's in TWOIAF, which the wiki actually captures well, so I will quote from there (because I am lazy as @ravenous reader says):

The Corbrays were an Andal house during the Andal invasion. Corwyn Corbray conquered the Fingers by defeating Houses Brightstone and Shell, claiming for himself the title of Lord of the Five Fingers.

I've mentioned the fiery hand of R'hllor many times - the moon becomes the hand of the sun when it moves in front of it and explodes, a la Benerro in that one scene:

The knight nodded. “The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there.” He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple’s doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. “The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light’s sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple.”

Fire knights. “And how many fingers does this hand have, pray?”

“One thousand. Never more, and never less. A new flame is kindled for every one that gutters out.”

Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness. (ADWD, Tyrion)

So, the Corbrays are very much AA reborn symbols, with their three meteor raven hearts and their thirsty dragon sword. They became Lord of the Fingers - lord of the meteors in other words, very consistent with their sigil. And how did they gain that title??

By defeating the previous powers in the FIngers - Dywen Shell and Jon Brightstone. In other words, a two-part anatomy of the moon - the shell (which became wooden teeth?) and the brightstone at the center... one Jon ~~Snow~~ Brightstone.

The new Lord of the FIngers goes on to have a back and forth duel with a House that is very much a Last Hero symbol - the Royces:

When the First Men began to unite against the Andals, King Robar II Royce slew Qyle Corbray, King of the Fingers. The Corbrays claim that Ser Jaime Corbray killed Robar in the Battle of the Seven Stars.[4]

This is more of that Azor Ahai-kills-the-Last Hero thing that I pointed out in my green zombie series. I don't think I need to explain why the Royce's are a Last hero symbol - Waymar plays the last hero in the prologue in many ways, and they are a First Men House associated with magic armor. They were bronze kings too - very much 'team westeros' as opposed to 'team dragon people from the east,' and I tend to associate AA with the east and the LH with Westeros, even if they were related or whatever, and I could be wrong, and people could have switched sides, etc. Anyway, they kill each other back and forth, that's the important thing.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

As I understand LmL's interpretation of Sansa's current predicament, she represents a piece of the fire moon (like the black Giant's lance) embedded in the ice moon (Vale, mountains of the moon), the revenant who is bound to return -- with a vengeance!

You are correct. I may well have called Sansa the comet one time - my understanding evolves a bit over time of course. Here's how I would say it:

The Vale is a detailed model of the ice moon. That's easy to see, because it has a blue and white sigil with a moon in it, and the Eyrie is a cold palace of white marble "veined" with blue. Dragonstone is perhaps the easiest fire moon symbol to spot: black stone, home of dragons, inhabited by a fire priestess, Azor Ahai is "reborn" (heavy airquotes) and draws "Lightbringer" (ditto) form the fire, and so on. If any place is a fire moon place, it's dragonstone, and if there's a place which represents the ice moon, it's the Eyrie and the Mountains of the Moon. As it gets snowed over, it's even easier to spot - the sunlight is even cold in one scene in AFFC.

So, my theory for a little while now on the "ice moon" is that a piece of black meteor - fire moon shrapnel - was embedded in the ice moon when the Long Night disaster occurred. This piece of "frozen fire" is what put the cold-burning element inside the Others, I am thinking. A parallel would be Rhaegar the black dragon planting his dragon seed inside a winter rose moon maiden, or the Night's King doing the same with the blue star eyed, moon-pale corpse queen. Other times we see a fire moon maiden get covered in snow or blue or something like that, and Sansa going to the Vale is a great example. In fact the Vale is full of examples like this - those AA reborn symbol-wielding Corbrays live at "Heart's Home" in the Vale. The best example is the mountain of dark stone known as the Giant's Lance, covered over with white snow. It mimics that time when Gregor left the tip of his giant's lance inside a blue moon warrior, Hugh of the Vale. That lance is the black moon meteor embedded in the ice moon, just like the Giant's Lance is planted in the snowy moon mountains.

As for Sansa, she goes through all the Nissa Nissa bloody moon stuff in KL during the Battle of the Blackwater - I've diagnosed those scene in my Waves of Night and Moon Blood episode that I have been bugging @ravenous reader to read. She flies form King's Landing, spirited away by a Stone Metoer head with flaming eyes-turned mockingbird by one account, and by means of transforming into a bat-winged wolf by another account.

So that's the Sansa fire moon meteor leaving the scene, flying away as the sun dies and turns dark (purple wedding). Her black amethyst purple serpent moon meteors did their work, it's time to fly away, which she does. She becomes a stone - Alayne Stone - then lands in the ice moon, the Vale. The Eyrie. And that's why she bears a bit of resemblance to the Night's Queen in her snow castle scene, making children's snow knights and getting covered in snow.. with those mesmerizing blue eyes... ahh Sophie turner... OH, sorry, where were we? ahem, right, Sansa. Well I think I made my point.

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't think Dany is the one to 'break the wheel,' as the mummers have suggested with their dialogue in Meereen. If anyone is to succeed at tinkering with time, it's Bran (who currently resides in a weirwood, which as we've identified has many mystical features in common with oaks and ploughs, and which means he exists out of time, not bound by its flow). Also, continuing the astronomical vein, it's significant that ploughs are associated with the big dipper constellation, as you've noted, so breaking that wheel would imply manipulating the stars. The equivalent of the LOTR's 'ring of power' is the bronze circlet of the crown of the King of Winter -- bronze as it so happens represents astronomy in the Maesters' link system. I think Bran is destined to journey into space to put right this meteor business once and for all -- that would be akin to breaking the vicious cycle!

Interestingly, both Dany and Bran are the ones who are foreshadowed to 'touch' the comet, to be the stallion who mounts the world in the sense of Yggdrasil as Odin's Horse which allows greenseers to steer comets. God that must sound like gibberish to someone who hasn't followed that whole train of thought. Anyway, Dany thinks of touching the comet and the moon, as we have discussed, and she has the SWMTW symbolism. But the real stallion is the weirwood Yggdrasil horse, and obviously that is Bran's to mount. Add in all your ideas about Bran going beyond the curtain as a metaphor for going into space... I can't help but wonder if there will be accidental teamwork between Dany and Bran. Even from long range.

SummerSphinx · January 8, 2017

This is not a perfect fit for any one character, but it always makes me think of Targaryens or the Dayne family. Dany/Drogo or Jorah/Dany or Sir Arthur Dayne's death or Lyanna/Rhaegar or Griff/Rhaegar..the comet...Ashara/Barristan...Ashara/Ned...Ygritte/Jon

"Fare Thee Well" (Indigo Girls)

Fare thee well my bright star
I watched your taillights blaze into nothingness
but you were long gone before I ever got to you...before you blazed past this address
and now I think of having loved and having lost - you never know what it's like to never love
who can say what's better and my heart's become the cost
a mere token of a brighter jewel sent from above

fare thee well my bright star
the vanity of youth, the color of your eyes
maybe if I'd fanned the blazing fire of your day to day
or if I'd been older I'd been wise
too thick the heat of those long summer evenings
for a cool evening I began to yearn
but you could only feed upon the things which feed a fire
waiting to see if I would burn

fare thee well my bright star
it was a brief brilliant miracle dive
that which I looked up to and I clung to for dear life
had to burn itself up just to make itself alive
I caught you then in your moment of glory
your last dramatic scene against a night sky stage
with a memory so clear it's as if you're still before me
my once in a lifetime star of an age

so fare thee well my bright star
last night the tongues of fire circled me around
this strange season of pain will come to pass
when the healing hands of autumn cool me down

ravenous reader · January 9, 2017

20 hours ago, SummerSphinx said:

This is not a perfect fit for any one character, but it always makes me think of Targaryens or the Dayne family. Dany/Drogo or Jorah/Dany or Sir Arthur Dayne's death or Lyanna/Rhaegar or Griff/Rhaegar..the comet...Ashara/Barristan...Ashara/Ned...Ygritte/Jon

"Fare Thee Well" (Indigo Girls)

Fare thee well my bright star
I watched your taillights blaze into nothingness
but you were long gone before I ever got to you...before you blazed past this address
and now I think of having loved and having lost - you never know what it's like to never love
who can say what's better and my heart's become the cost
a mere token of a brighter jewel sent from above

fare thee well my bright star
the vanity of youth, the color of your eyes
maybe if I'd fanned the blazing fire of your day to day
or if I'd been older I'd been wise
too thick the heat of those long summer evenings
for a cool evening I began to yearn
but you could only feed upon the things which feed a fire
waiting to see if I would burn

fare thee well my bright star
it was a brief brilliant miracle dive
that which I looked up to and I clung to for dear life
had to burn itself up just to make itself alive
I caught you then in your moment of glory
your last dramatic scene against a night sky stage
with a memory so clear it's as if you're still before me
my once in a lifetime star of an age

so fare thee well my bright star
last night the tongues of fire circled me around
this strange season of pain will come to pass
when the healing hands of autumn cool me down

Thanks for this heart-felt and heart-rending contribution @SummerSphinx (nice avatar name!) and welcome to this thread. For those who are unfamiliar with the song, I've linked a video clip (if you prefer another, please feel free to link):

Indeed, it evokes all those characters you mentioned above, with their star-crossed romances and short-fused destinies. The lines about following a shooting star 'taillights blazing into nothingness' but never getting there in time, in addition to 'my heart's become the cost / a mere token of a brighter jewel sent from above,' reminds me strongly of the Daynes, the Sword of the Morning and his sword Dawn, born of the heart of a fallen star, as the legend goes -- and of course Ser Arthur's death, as you've highlighted. In particular, the idea of a 'once in a lifetime star of an age' brings to mind the idealizing of Ser Arthur Dayne, the so-called 'perfect white knight,' and the human desire for a hero saviour (however spurious) to sweep us up in a blinding embrace, driving us to greatness and follly alike.

In terms of the dialectic between the elements of ice and fire, there's also very much a sense of 'burning the candle at both ends' or 'burning too brightly'...how fire not only combusts others around it, but consumes itself as well, exhausting one and all. It's reminiscent of that quote in which Barristan muses on the relative attractions of fire vs. mud, and how fools and the young will always seek the thrill of the former, at considerable risk, and frequently to their own detriment:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Discarded Knight

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl's heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.

The final lines of the song -- which I find poignant and palpable in their pain-- 'the tongues of fire circled me around / this strange season of pain will come to pass / when the healing hands of autumn cool me down' reminds me of figuratively applying just such a poultice of cooling autumn mud and leaves, after the scorching summer fires have had their way.

Pain killer Jane · January 9, 2017

On 1/6/2017 at 6:07 AM, Isobel Harper said:

I can imagine the "Lady Forlorn" being the lover but that she couldn't bury her knight in time before he is scavenged.

Love the song by the way. Lady Forlon with her heart shaped ruby pummel can be connected to Melisandre and her ruby red eye and Stannis describes her as a red hawk and her personal sigil is a burning red heart (or hart as in stag).

Pain killer Jane · January 9, 2017

On 1/6/2017 at 7:37 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Darry's sigil is a ploughman. And given the meaning of derry, it seems "waynwood" is oak as well.

On 1/7/2017 at 11:38 AM, ravenous reader said:

I was wondering if the three hearts might refer to the Battle of Redgrass Field,

If the connection between Darry and the Corbray's proves to be true than the original of the sigil is probably in relation to the Deremond song whom I take to be the Demon of Darry, a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (an Other).

And there he stood with sword in hand,

the last of Darry's ten...

And red the grass beneath his feet,

and red his banners bright,

and red the glow of the setting sun

that bathed him in its light,

"Come on, come on," the great lord called,

"my sword is hungry still."

And with a cry of savage rage,

They swarmed across the rill..

And Lyn does say

"My lady has a thirst. Whenever she comes out to dance, she likes a drop of red." - Alyane 1, aFfC

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