Jon is the trueborn son of Ned and Ashara

[The Twinslayer]

It is time to dust off an old theory to take into account more recent information contained in ADWD.  Here it is.

Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara, they were married before Ned married Cat, so Jon is legitimate. 

The evidence for Ned being the father is that Ned says so:  "Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him 'son' for all the north to see."  It also helps that Ned looks like a Stark, based on the description in the books and that Craster points it out. 

The evidence for Ashara being the mother is that Catelyn and Cersei have both heard that Ashara is the mother and Barristan (that is from ADWD) says that Ashara "turned to Stark" at Harrenhall.  Plus, when Catelyn asks about Ashara, Ned shuts her down, asks where she heard Ashara's name, and ensures that "Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again." 

What is the theory that Ned and Ashara were married?  Here it is.  We only see Ned ever tell one lie where we know he is lying and we know the exact nature of the lie.  It happens right before he is killed, and he lies about committing treason:  "I plotted to depose and murder his son and seize the throne for myself.  Let the High Septon and Baelor the Beloved and the Seven bear witness to the truth of what I say:  Joffrey Baratheon is the one true heir to the Iron Throne." 

The point is that Ned swore that this lie was true to the Seven -- not the Old Gods.  So he would not swear to a lie before the Old Gods, but he managed to do it to the Seven. 

We only know of one other oath he took to the Seven:  his marriage vows to Catelyn.  "And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed to sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully." 

You would think that the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North would wed in the godswood, before the heart tree.  Why did Ned not do that?  The answer is that he had already married before the Old Gods, when he married Ashara.  Barristan thinks she turned to Stark and was dishonored at Harrenhal.  So Ned and Ashara had sex.  Add to this the fact that, when Robb beds and then immediately weds Jeyne, we are told (by Tywin) that Robb is his "father's son."  Is this a clue that Ned bedded Ashara at Harrenhal and then immediately afterwards, he wed her -- just like Robb? 

Now, why would Ned marry Cat if he was already married to Ashara, knowing that polygamy is illegal in the Seven Kingdoms?  ASOS provides the answer:  after the Battle of the Bells, the rebels needed to secure the Tully alliance, and Hoster insisted on marrying his daughters to Ned and Jon Arryn.  Ned, freshly (but secretly) married to Ashara, had to agree to marry Catelyn (publicly) to secure the alliance.  Is this one of the reasons why Ned tells Robert:  "There was no honor in that conquest."  Because the Tully alliance was secured by a public marriage (to Catelyn) that repudiated the secret, prior marriage to Ashara?

The old theory was that all of this explained why Ashara committed suicide:  she found out that her "husband" had put her aside and taken a new wife, so she killed herself.  But perhaps there is a better theory. 

Lyanna died in a "bed of blood," suggesting that she may have had a child by Rhaegar after Rhaegar kidnapped her.  Post-ADWD, we can tie up that loose end by suggesting that Ashara did not kill herself after all:  she reinvented herself as Septa Lemore and smuggled the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna out to Essos to live in exile and to one day take the name Young Griff -- which ties in nicely with the statement in the appendix to AGOT that "The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon, descended from the high lords of the ancient Freehold of Valyria, their heritage proclaimed in a striking (some say inhuman) beauty, with lilac or indigo or violet eyes and hair of silver-gold or platinum white."  Of course, Young Griff fits that description while Jon does not.

Which all brings into ironic focus Jon's memory of play-fighting with Robb and pretending he is wielding Ice only to have Robb tell him he can't wield Ice because he is not the Lord of Winterfell.  In fact, Jon should be the Lord of Winterfell.

It also answers the usual questions from the R+L=J thread, like "if Ashara is Jon's mother, why did Ned never tell him."  The answer is that Ned can't get into the fact that he married Ashara before he married Catelyn without undermining the alliance that put Robert on the throne.  "Why did Ned lie to Robert and say the mother was Wylla."  Because he didn't want to rip open the alliance and he did not want to confuse the line of succession for Winterfell.  And so on.     

What do you think?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Doesn't work with the timeline. If Ned and Ashara were married before Ned married Catelyn, then Jon would have to be older than Robb...rather substantially so. That means he can't be passed off as a younger child fathered during the war and AFTER Robb was conceived.

Not to mention the fact that taking a second wife for political reasons is far more against Ned's character than claiming his sister's child as his own. Or that he could easily have explained to Lord Tully that he already had a wife and Cat could have married Jon Arryn or even Jaime Lannister post-Kingsguard.

Then of course there's the fact that Ashara, being the only legal wife Ned had, would have every reason to make a loud and public issue about the fact that his marriage to Catelyn was illegal and invalid. Not only would Ashara have her own pride and her son's legacy to protect but also she was pro-Targaryen and nothing would have been better calculated to blow the rebels apart than pointing out that their alliance was based in part on a false marriage that made Hoster Tully's daughter a whore with a bastard child.

Ashara's being compromised does not have to mean she had sex. We're talking medieval. Being caught making out would have ruined her reputation. Barristan never says which Stark she looked to, or what for. Nor do we have any information indicating that Barristan actually knows what happened as opposed to having heard about it later.

If Ashara were Septa Lemore, Tyrion would have noticed her purple eyes. Purple eyes are too big a deal in the series for one of the main characters, and quite possibly the most intelligent and observant character, to overlook such a thing. 

Points for effort, but it's still a reach. 

[Lord Lannister]

I always have a soft spot for R+L /=J theories, but yeah this one doesn't add up at all. Literally in the case of Jon's age.

[The Twinslayer]

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Doesn't work with the timeline. If Ned and Ashara were married before Ned married Catelyn, then Jon would have to be older than Robb...rather substantially so. That means he can't be passed off as a younger child fathered during the war and AFTER Robb was conceived.

Not to mention the fact that taking a second wife for political reasons is far more against Ned's character than claiming his sister's child as his own. Or that he could easily have explained to Lord Tully that he already had a wife and Cat could have married Jon Arryn or even Jaime Lannister post-Kingsguard.

Then of course there's the fact that Ashara, being the only legal wife Ned had, would have every reason to make a loud and public issue about the fact that his marriage to Catelyn was illegal and invalid. Not only would Ashara have her own pride and her son's legacy to protect but also she was pro-Targaryen and nothing would have been better calculated to blow the rebels apart than pointing out that their alliance was based in part on a false marriage that made Hoster Tully's daughter a whore with a bastard child.

Ashara's being compromised does not have to mean she had sex. We're talking medieval. Being caught making out would have ruined her reputation. Barristan never says which Stark she looked to, or what for. Nor do we have any information indicating that Barristan actually knows what happened as opposed to having heard about it later.

If Ashara were Septa Lemore, Tyrion would have noticed her purple eyes. Purple eyes are too big a deal in the series for one of the main characters, and quite possibly the most intelligent and observant character, to overlook such a thing. 

Points for effort, but it's still a reach. 

Taking these in turn:

1.  Timeline

This works for several reasons.  First, Jon is probably older than Robb.  Jon is a little ahead of Robb when the are small children and Maester Luwin excuses this by saying that bastards grow up quicker than trueborn children.  Second, what is to say that Jon was not conceived a couple of days before Ned's wedding to Catelyn?  Ned did not know he was going to marry Catelyn until after he went to Riverrun, after the Battle of the Bells.  What is to say that he did not meet his (secret) wife Ashara between Stony Sept and Riverrun and conceive Jon during that encounter?  Third, what is the reason for thinking that Jon is younger than Robb anyway?  Fourth, if Jon is older, and trueborn, but it is important for the rebel alliance that Robb be Ned's heir, wouldn't Ned have an incentive to suggest that Robb was actually older? 

Also, I have seen among very intelligent and well coordinated children an 18 month old child who has only 3-4 words and has just learned to walk and a 9 month old child who has more than a dozen words and is walking proficiently.  Whether Jon or Robb is older would not necessarily be apparent to any observer if you are talking about a period of months (rather than years). 

2.  Lying about 2 wives versus lying about his sister's bastard

I don't see any difference.  Ned says there was no honor in the conquest, and we know that Robert did not proclaim that he sought the kingship until after the Battle of the Bells, when Ned married Catelyn.  That is a pretty strong hint that his "wedding" to Catelyn -- and the alliance it secured -- was dishonorable. 

3.  Ashara's motive to "make a loud and public issue" of her marriage to Ned

Ashara would have a lot of incentive to keep it secret if one or both of these things happened: (1) she was "dishonored" by Ned before their wedding, and then (2) he was a leader of a rebellion that her family (at least nominally) opposed. 

Stepping back from the Rebellion, if he "married" her in secret after "dishonoring" her at Harrenhal, they might have agreed to keep it secret to avoid overshadowing the Brandon-Cat marriage or the Lyanna-Robert marriage.

Ashara might also not want to undermine Ned, her husband, while he was rebelling against the crown.  In that instance, her loyalty to her husband could conflict with her loyalty to her house, and she might decide to just stay silent.

4.  Dishonor does not mean sex?

Okay.  But it might.  And we know from Meera/Jojen that Ned fancied  her.

5.  Lemore's eye color

Don't you find it strange that we are told everyone's eye color except Lemore's? 

[The Twinslayer]

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always have a soft spot for R+L /=J theories, but yeah this one doesn't add up at all. Literally in the case of Jon's age.

There is no issue with Jon's age.  If Ned is lying about Jon's origins, we don't know what his actual age is relative to other characters.  If Ned is telling the truth about Jon's age, so what?  Given how far Catelyin was able to move during the War of Five Kings, and given that we know Ned was in the Riverland.s Vale, Dorne, North and Crownlands during the rebellion, why for a second believe that Ned and Ashara could not have conceived Jon long before or long after Robb was conceived?

[LynnS]

Jon has the Stark blood but I don't think Ned is his father because of the conversation he has with Cersei in the Godswood at Kings Landing.

Ned believes that a lie cannot be told in front of a heart tree and makes no distinction between an oak tree and a weirwood.  In this case; it's Ned's thoughts that are interesting:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"My son Bran …"

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

Ned is thinking about his children, the children of his body and he doesn't include Jon even in his private thoughts except to wonder how much value Catelyn would put on Jon's life if her own children's inheritance were threatened by him.  But I think this is an observation about her existing relationship with Jon more than anything else.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

2 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Taking these in turn:

1.  Timeline

This works for several reasons.  First, Jon is probably older than Robb.  Jon is a little ahead of Robb when the are small children and Maester Luwin excuses this by saying that bastards grow up quicker than trueborn children.

Basic biology. The rate at which children grow and mature physically is determined by several different factors, primarily their genes, their nutrition and nurturing. One thing growth rate is most definitely NOT based on is whether the child's parents were married or not. Biology doesn't work like that. This argument is a non-starter.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

No, This doesn't work at all. Jon is not older than Robb, we are hinted that he could possibly be in the text, with those comments from Lewin, and Cat's concerns. But this only serves to tell us that they are practically the same age. If Jon was Ashara's son, he would be significantly older than Robb, where as in reality when we do all the maths and look at the timeline in detail with the information from all the books and not just AGOT. And that SSM too of course.  It seems Jon is indeed ever so slightly younger than Robb. 

A baby develops quite rapidly in it's first year, it is the fastest we ever grow outside of the womb. There is no passing off a baby as younger than another if there is anything but a couple of weeks between them. 

 

[theblackdragonI]

5 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

 

We only know of one other oath he took to the Seven:  his marriage vows to Catelyn.  "And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed to sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully." 

You would think that the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North would wed in the godswood, before the heart tree.  Why did Ned not do that?  The answer is that he had already married before the Old Gods, when he married Ashara.  Barristan thinks she turned to Stark and was dishonored at Harrenhal.  So Ned and Ashara had sex.  Add to this the fact that, when Robb beds and then immediately weds Jeyne, we are told (by Tywin) that Robb is his "father's son."  Is this a clue that Ned bedded Ashara at Harrenhal and then immediately afterwards, he wed her -- just like Robb? 

 

Given Ned's piety and ties to the North, as well as having all his lords with him at the wedding I would imagine they were wed in the godswood. The marriage in the sept was most likely at Cat's insistence and because Jon and Lysa were there, and Ned accepted to do both because he was an honourable dude. Similar to how he built a sept at Winterfell when he didn't have to.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

So. The Winterfell is, by rights, Jon's, and Ned is fucking him out of his rightful inheritance. And earlier, he deceived Hoster and Cat, to con the Riverlands to join the alliance.

Right. That's the Ned we all know. As always, putting what's profitable above what's right.

I have a counter-theory, I think just as valid: Jon isn't the son of any named character, just some random kid Ned stole from some village and brought home for the sole purpose of fucking with Cat, because that was just so damn funny.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

48 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I have a counter-theory, I think just as valid: Jon isn't the son of any named character, just some random kid Ned stole from some village and brought home for the sole purpose of fucking with Cat, because that was just so damn funny.

I actually want this to be true. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

The problem with all R+L=/=J theories is that they all require huge leaps of logic. If Ned had legitimately married the daughter of a noble house, why would it be a secret, and how possibly could that secret be kept?

[Ygrain]

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

It is time to dust off an old theory to take into account more recent information contained in ADWD.  Here it is.

Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara, they were married before Ned married Cat, so Jon is legitimate. 

The evidence for Ned being the father is that Ned says so:  "Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him 'son' for all the north to see."  It also helps that Ned looks like a Stark, based on the description in the books and that Craster points it out. 

Your evidence points only to Jon having at least one Stark parent. Ned calling him his son is not evidence of anything. Ned also claimed that Jon's mother is Wylla, after all. You can't pick when to believe Ned and when not because it suits your theory.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

The evidence for Ashara being the mother is that Catelyn and Cersei have both heard that Ashara is the mother and Barristan (that is from ADWD) says that Ashara "turned to Stark" at Harrenhall.  Plus, when Catelyn asks about Ashara, Ned shuts her down, asks where she heard Ashara's name, and ensures that "Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again." 

Hearsay =/= evidence, or else Lord Borrel's account would be equally valid and Jon would be born to two mothers. Barristan doesn't say which Stark it was, and there is a Stark who has a history of bedding maidens, and it's not Ned. Furthermore, we even have counterevidence in the person of Harwin, who doesn't believe the supposed HH romance ever took place, which you conveniently ignore.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

What is the theory that Ned and Ashara were married?  Here it is.  We only see Ned ever tell one lie where we know he is lying and we know the exact nature of the lie.  It happens right before he is killed, and he lies about committing treason:  "I plotted to depose and murder his son and seize the throne for myself.  Let the High Septon and Baelor the Beloved and the Seven bear witness to the truth of what I say:  Joffrey Baratheon is the one true heir to the Iron Throne." 

Incorrect. We see Ned tell at least one other lie, and that is when he claims responsibility for Catnapping.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

The point is that Ned swore that this lie was true to the Seven -- not the Old Gods.  So he would not swear to a lie before the Old Gods, but he managed to do it to the Seven. 

Yes, he managed to get himself out of foreswearing himself before the old gods. 

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

We only know of one other oath he took to the Seven:  his marriage vows to Catelyn.  "And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed to sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully." 

And? Doesn't mean he foresore that one in the least.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

You would think that the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North would wed in the godswood, before the heart tree.  Why did Ned not do that?  The answer is that he had already married before the Old Gods, when he married Ashara. 

Provide a quote that Ned and Cat never said the words before a hearttree, or that Ned didn't think his marriage in the Seven valid.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Barristan thinks she turned to Stark and was dishonored at Harrenhal.  So Ned and Ashara had sex. 

An unsupported leap of logic, out of character for Ned.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Add to this the fact that, when Robb beds and then immediately weds Jeyne, we are told (by Tywin) that Robb is his "father's son."  Is this a clue that Ned bedded Ashara at Harrenhal and then immediately afterwards, he wed her -- just like Robb? 

Because Ned confided to Tywin that he had sex with Ashara? And no-one ever raised the issue of being married to Cat whilebeing married to Ashara?

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Now, why would Ned marry Cat if he was already married to Ashara, knowing that polygamy is illegal in the Seven Kingdoms?  ASOS provides the answer:  after the Battle of the Bells, the rebels needed to secure the Tully alliance, and Hoster insisted on marrying his daughters to Ned and Jon Arryn.  Ned, freshly (but secretly) married to Ashara, had to agree to marry Catelyn (publicly) to secure the alliance. 

... and never spares it a single guilty thought, yeah. Sounds totally like Ned.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Is this one of the reasons why Ned tells Robert:  "There was no honor in that conquest."  Because the Tully alliance was secured by a public marriage (to Catelyn) that repudiated the secret, prior marriage to Ashara?

Ned is talking about the Sack here, not the Rebellion as such.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

The old theory was that all of this explained why Ashara committed suicide:  she found out that her "husband" had put her aside and taken a new wife, so she killed herself.  But perhaps there is a better theory. 

And Ned was so cool with it that he never spared it a thought.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Lyanna died in a "bed of blood," suggesting that she may have had a child by Rhaegar after Rhaegar kidnapped her.  Post-ADWD, we can tie up that loose end by suggesting that Ashara did not kill herself after all:  she reinvented herself as Septa Lemore and smuggled the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna out to Essos to live in exile and to one day take the name Young Griff -- which ties in nicely with the statement in the appendix to AGOT that "The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon, descended from the high lords of the ancient Freehold of Valyria, their heritage proclaimed in a striking (some say inhuman) beauty, with lilac or indigo or violet eyes and hair of silver-gold or platinum white."  Of course, Young Griff fits that description while Jon does not.

So she abandons her own child to take care of another person's child. That make any sense to you?

Besides, Jon's non-Targ looks are really a dead horse by now. Rhaegar fathered a daughter which didn't look Targ; why is it so improbable that yet another child of his wouldn't look Targ is beyond me.

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Which all brings into ironic focus Jon's memory of play-fighting with Robb and pretending he is wielding Ice only to have Robb tell him he can't wield Ice because he is not the Lord of Winterfell.  In fact, Jon should be the Lord of Winterfell.

It also answers the usual questions from the R+L=J thread, like "if Ashara is Jon's mother, why did Ned never tell him."  The answer is that Ned can't get into the fact that he married Ashara before he married Catelyn without undermining the alliance that put Robert on the throne.  "Why did Ned lie to Robert and say the mother was Wylla."  Because he didn't want to rip open the alliance and he did not want to confuse the line of succession for Winterfell.  And so on.     

What do you think?

That this new attempt is no better than the old ones.

[The Twinslayer]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jon has the Stark blood but I don't think Ned is his father because of the conversation he has with Cersei in the Godswood at Kings Landing.

Ned believes that a lie cannot be told in front of a heart tree and makes no distinction between an oak tree and a weirwood.  In this case; it's Ned's thoughts that are interesting:

Ned is thinking about his children, the children of his body and he doesn't include Jon even in his private thoughts except to wonder how much value Catelyn would put on Jon's life if her own children's inheritance were threatened by him.  But I think this is an observation about her existing relationship with Jon more than anything else.

I think Ned is distinguishing Jon from the children of Cat's body, not from the children of his own body.  Also, the four children by Cat are part of his family, but by this point in the book Jon has left the Stark family to take the Black.  If Jon is in danger, it is not Ned's job to protect him.  That falls to the Watch now.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

No, This doesn't work at all. Jon is not older than Robb, we are hinted that he could possibly be in the text, with those comments from Lewin, and Cat's concerns. But this only serves to tell us that they are practically the same age. If Jon was Ashara's son, he would be significantly older than Robb, where as in reality when we do all the maths and look at the timeline in detail with the information from all the books and not just AGOT. And that SSM too of course.  It seems Jon is indeed ever so slightly younger than Robb. 

A baby develops quite rapidly in it's first year, it is the fastest we ever grow outside of the womb. There is no passing off a baby as younger than another if there is anything but a couple of weeks between them. 

 

This assumes that Ned never saw Ashara from the time he married Cat until the time he arrived at Starfall to return Dawn.  That just isn't realistic in a world where Catelyn was able to float all around the Seven Kingdoms, e.g. from Riverrun to meet up with Renly in the middle of the War of 5 Kings, and when we know that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall for the entirety of Robert's Rebellion.  The chances that Ned and Ashara met up during the rebellion at the right time to conceive Jon are pretty high.

I agree with your implication that Jon was not conceived during the tournament at Harrenhal.  For this theory to work, there has to be another Ned/Ashara meeting shortly before or some time after Ned's wedding to Cat.

6 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So. The Winterfell is, by rights, Jon's, and Ned is fucking him out of his rightful inheritance. And earlier, he deceived Hoster and Cat, to con the Riverlands to join the alliance.

Right. That's the Ned we all know. As always, putting what's profitable above what's right.

I have a counter-theory, I think just as valid: Jon isn't the son of any named character, just some random kid Ned stole from some village and brought home for the sole purpose of fucking with Cat, because that was just so damn funny.

I don't think Ned believes he is depriving Jon of his inheritance.  He may think he is doing Jon a favor.  He thinks being Lord of Winterfell is a terrible job and he wished his brother had it:  "Brandon.  Yes.  Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."  In other words, he is giving Jon the life he wished he had.

As for lying to Hoster and Cat, he knows he did a terrible thing and he feels ashamed.  "Troubled sleep was no stranger to him.  He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.  'There was no honor in that conquest.'"

So he is living a lie -- the lies he told Hoster, the lies he told Cat, the lies he told to Jon Arryn and Robert.  And he thinks about those lies when he tells Robert that there was no honor in that conquest, in part because it was his willingness to tell those lies that made the conquest possible. 

5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The problem with all R+L=/=J theories is that they all require huge leaps of logic. If Ned had legitimately married the daughter of a noble house, why would it be a secret, and how possibly could that secret be kept?

Is a secret wedding between Ned and Ashara any more unlikely than the secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna that is so popular on the R+L=J threads?

I could see this happening:  Ned dishonors Ashara at the Harrenhal tournament.  He marries her before the heart tree the next day.  They do it in secret because they don't have permission  from their fathers and because Ned may suspect that Mad Aerys -- who is present at the tournament -- is not happy with the Stark betrothals to Houses Tully and Barratheon.  So they don't want to provoke the King.  They also don't want to cause a scandal and overshadow Brandon's and Lyanna's weddings.  So they are going to bide their time and get the necessary permission later.  But they never get the chance because the war breaks out.  That does not mean they don't cross paths, or even seek each other out, during the rebellion, which is when Jon is conceived. 

[Leticia Stark]

Quote

While this hadn't been revealed to fans back in 2002 (three years before the third book was released and nearly a decade before the show), one fan had an unsuspectingly perfect question for Martin:

"Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, and Tyrion Lannister their names?"

Martin's response:

"Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned."

Nice one, Martin. If you didn't catch that, another Redditor has an explanation:

"If anyone doesn't get it, 'Dany was most likely named by her mother, Tyrion by his Father, Jon by Ned.' Rather than saying Tyrion and Jon by their fathers, Ned was named as if he wasn't the father. Slightly subtle."

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a46498/george-r-r-martin-jon-snow-father/

I like this quote of a Q&A from 2002, it solves to me. Plus, I think it's funny how even Sean Bean himself likes to scream to everyone to hear that Jon is not Ned's son

[velo-knight]

11 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

There is no issue with Jon's age.  If Ned is lying about Jon's origins, we don't know what his actual age is relative to other characters.  If Ned is telling the truth about Jon's age, so what?  Given how far Catelyin was able to move during the War of Five Kings, and given that we know Ned was in the Riverland.s Vale, Dorne, North and Crownlands during the rebellion, why for a second believe that Ned and Ashara could not have conceived Jon long before or long after Robb was conceived?

Isn't there an SSM where George explicitly says that Jon's about 9 months old than Dany? If that's the case, then the timeline makes this theory pretty much impossible.

5 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

I think Ned is distinguishing Jon from the children of Cat's body, not from the children of his own body.  Also, the four children by Cat are part of his family, but by this point in the book Jon has left the Stark family to take the Black.  If Jon is in danger, it is not Ned's job to protect him.  That falls to the Watch now.

Because that's how love works.

5 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

This assumes that Ned never saw Ashara from the time he married Cat until the time he arrived at Starfall to return Dawn.  That just isn't realistic in a world where Catelyn was able to float all around the Seven Kingdoms, e.g. from Riverrun to meet up with Renly in the middle of the War of 5 Kings, and when we know that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall for the entirety of Robert's Rebellion.

 We do? Granted, I don't doubt she had a number of freedoms and privileges, but she's a highborn lady in the middle of a devastating war; and on top of that she's surrounded by rumors that she's been soiled in some way. I don't see her moving much, or her family allowing it. Cat was the wife of the King's Hand and later mother to the KITN, sent as an official envoy. I'd think Ashara would be noted if she travelled openly; and I doubt she could've travelled in secret.

5 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

I agree with your implication that Jon was not conceived during the tournament at Harrenhal.  For this theory to work, there has to be another Ned/Ashara meeting shortly before or some time after Ned's wedding to Cat.

I don't think Ned believes he is depriving Jon of his inheritance.  He may think he is doing Jon a favor.  He thinks being Lord of Winterfell is a terrible job and he wished his brother had it:  "Brandon.  Yes.  Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."  In other words, he is giving Jon the life he wished he had.

That's one way to read his thoughts. Another would be that he feels guilty that he has profited immensely from his brother's death: he has a wonderful wife, who he loves, and was pledged to Brandon; he has titles and power and is scared he won't measure up to Brandon. Frankly, I think Ned has a bit of an 'adoring little brother' relationship with Brandon - this bold, confident, talented brother who could talk to women and fought with skill and rode like a centaur. It's natural to think to someone you look up to in Ned's circumstances, and really quite adorable.

5 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

As for lying to Hoster and Cat, he knows he did a terrible thing and he feels ashamed.  "Troubled sleep was no stranger to him.  He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.  'There was no honor in that conquest.'"

So he is living a lie -- the lies he told Hoster, the lies he told Cat, the lies he told to Jon Arryn and Robert.  And he thinks about those lies when he tells Robert that there was no honor in that conquest, in part because it was his willingness to tell those lies that made the conquest possible. 

If the world thinks Ashara is dead, why can't he just tell Cat then? Do you think Ned knows the truth about Ashara? It obviously causes the wife he loves a lot of pain. A simple explanation and a chance to apologize might make things tough for a while, but it will give them a chance to heal, and heal together. He could tell Cat he'll see Jon takes the Black (or, idk, the White, as he'll be the King's Hand soon?) and that the current solution was the best way to do right by all the people he loves.

5 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

Is a secret wedding between Ned and Ashara any more unlikely than the secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna that is so popular on the R+L=J threads?

I'll give you this, and given all the royal and especially regnal imagery around Jon, I do wonder if we aren't underestimating the probability of a "bastard King Jon" scenario.

5 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

I could see this happening:  Ned dishonors Ashara at the Harrenhal tournament.  He marries her before the heart tree the next day.  They do it in secret because they don't have permission  from their fathers and because Ned may suspect that Mad Aerys -- who is present at the tournament -- is not happy with the Stark betrothals to Houses Tully and Barratheon.  So they don't want to provoke the King.  They also don't want to cause a scandal and overshadow Brandon's and Lyanna's weddings.  So they are going to bide their time and get the necessary permission later.  But they never get the chance because the war breaks out.  That does not mean they don't cross paths, or even seek each other out, during the rebellion, which is when Jon is conceived. 

I don't see Ned sleeping with Ashara after he says his vows to Catelyn, however - no matter how legitimate or illegitimate they are, that's a level of selfishness we just never see from Eddard.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

 

This assumes that Ned never saw Ashara from the time he married Cat until the time he arrived at Starfall to return Dawn.  That just isn't realistic in a world where Catelyn was able to float all around the Seven Kingdoms, e.g. from Riverrun to meet up with Renly in the middle of the War of 5 Kings, and when we know that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall for the entirety of Robert's Rebellion.  The chances that Ned and Ashara met up during the rebellion at the right time to conceive Jon are pretty high.

I agree with your implication that Jon was not conceived during the tournament at Harrenhal.  For this theory to work, there has to be another Ned/Ashara meeting shortly before or some time after Ned's wedding to Cat.

 

This is not a world with mobiles and face book where you can quickly message the person you wish to see, arrange a hook up and what not. Ned's position during the war was not known to Ashara, and he is accounted for in the immediate aftermath and right before his wedding to Catelyn. Which is the only time Jon can be conceived to enable them to be so close in age.  

Catelyn was not "floating around the 7 kingdoms" she was going on a specific mission, in which she knew exactly where Renly's camp was due to intelligence gathered by Robb's army. And she is escorted by armed guards. 

Ashara had no such resources during RR. And Ned did not have the time to seek her out at Starfall prior to his returning Dawn. We don't have any gaps in his whereabouts around the wedding. They would not be able to meet for a tryst. 

Another issue with the idea that Jon was conceived after Harrenhall, is the fact Barristan informs us that Ashara got pregnant there. He talks of her Dishonour during the tourney, and later a still birth of a daughter. And whilst Dishonour is an ambiguous word, when we look at other examples of it's use in the books, sex outside of marriage, and pregnancy with a bastard comes up time and again. And it's only other real use is in terms of oath breaking, and that tends to only apply to men, when referencing women dishonour inevitably refers to sex without marriage.

Now what evidence is there for Barristans opinion. Well he was besotted with Ashara, and so has motivation to seek out news of her. 

He was at Harrenhall and being in love had reason to closely observe her over that period.

He was also at court, so he had access to information about what happened to her afterwards, due to castle gossip. 

Another thing worth noting is Barristan's relationship with Ned. It doesn't feel as though there is any jealousy or animosity there. 

Which makes me think we can pretty reliably rule out Ned as her lover (hint, it was Brandon), but also rule out the idea of her having a second pregnancy so soon. As the timeline for her to have had two children in the period between the Tourney and the ToJ is far too tight. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

58 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

This assumes that Ned never saw Ashara from the time he married Cat until the time he arrived at Starfall to return Dawn.  That just isn't realistic in a world where Catelyn was able to float all around the Seven Kingdoms, e.g. from Riverrun to meet up with Renly in the middle of the War of 5 Kings, and when we know that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall for the entirety of Robert's Rebellion.  The chances that Ned and Ashara met up during the rebellion at the right time to conceive Jon are pretty high.

In the complete absence of any hint or clue that Ned did see Ashara during that time period, it's a highly reasonable assumption that Ned did not see her. What isn't realistic is the idea that a noblewoman like Ashara Dayne would be able to "float all around" a war zone anytime she wants.

And the chances that Ned and Ashara met up during the rebellion at any time are not pretty high; they're extremely tenuous, in fact, in that they depend entirely upon an SSM stating that Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor, not upon any indications within the story itself (of which there are none). Those chances of a meet-up can only be considered pretty high if a particular theory depends upon them meeting up during the rebellion at the right time to conceive Jon. 

 

59 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

Is a secret wedding between Ned and Ashara any more unlikely than the secret marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna that is so popular on the R+L=J threads?

The difference is that nothing about R+L=J is changed whether Rhaegar and Lyanna married or not. The timeline doesn't have to be stretched, the story doesn't have to be stretched or ignored or distorted. The basic hints and clues that lead to R+L=J are unaffected by either answer to the question of whether those two underwent a marriage or not.

For a secret marriage to happen between Ned and Ashara, Ned's character would have to be drastically different than the way he was written. The timeline needs to be stretched - if not ignored entirely - and large gaps have to be filled in by resorting to the argument that it could have happened that way and there's nothing that shows it didn't. If a theory requires contortions of the text and unsupported speculations, it's not a good theory.

[Panther2000]

Yeah, I get it.    This is why we have the TOJ and why and the only reason why D & D got the gig was, because they knew who Jon's MOTHER was.  Not his father MOTHER.    I just can't wait for the next book to come out because all of the Jon Haters are really going to be hating on this.   My question is, If Ned is Jon's father, where is Lyanna's baby ( of yeah, with John Connington, Right. How did he get there?).  OMG.  Or better yet,  Dani is Lyanna's baby.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

I don't think Ned believes he is depriving Jon of his inheritance.  He may think he is doing Jon a favor.  He thinks being Lord of Winterfell is a terrible job and he wished his brother had it:  "Brandon.  Yes.  Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."  In other words, he is giving Jon the life he wished he had.

As for lying to Hoster and Cat, he knows he did a terrible thing and he feels ashamed.  "Troubled sleep was no stranger to him.  He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.  'There was no honor in that conquest.'"

We know what "There was no honor in that conquest" referred to. Elia of Dorne, Rhaenys, Aegon.

And whether being Lord of Winterfell is fun or not is completely immaterial to the issue, to whom the seat belongs by right. And Ned doesn't follow "the principle of most fun", he follows the line of inheritance. Incredibly rigidly, too.

In your hypothesis, Ned acts completely out of character, but that is fine, since you have no evidence to support it anyway. Your argument is invalid.