Jon is the trueborn son of Ned and Ashara

[Lady Blizzardborn]

54 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I'd say the most likely age range for Ashara is about the same as Ned or Brandon. which puts Ashara either 37 or 38 in year 300 when Tyrion estimates Lemore's age. Given Lemore's history of living for many years on a Riverboat it isn't hard to see Tyrion being mistaken in his age estimation. It's is a much harder life living outdoors on the Rhoyne river, than it is living at court with servants on hand to do all your chores for you and fetch and cook your meals.

Only if the author completely ignored the customs of the society he was writing. Ned and Brandon were both in their 20s at the time of the Harrenhal tourney. If Ashara was in her 20s at Harrenhal she would have to have been either unmarriageable--which we have no reason to assume--or a widow--which we know she wasn't. Or if the author completely ignored the customs of the society he was writing...which he may have done. We just don't know yet. 

I'm pretty sure at least some of the mystery surrounding Ashara will get cleared up before the end of the series. Maybe we won't know everything, but the big questions will likely be answered. There's too much deliberate baiting of the readers with House Dayne tidbits for GRRM not to follow through and produce some info for us.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Only if the author completely ignored the customs of the society he was writing. Ned and Brandon were both in their 20s at the time of the Harrenhal tourney. If Ashara was in her 20s at Harrenhal she would have to have been either unmarriageable--which we have no reason to assume--or a widow--which we know she wasn't. Or if the author completely ignored the customs of the society he was writing...which he may have done. We just don't know yet. 

I'm pretty sure at least some of the mystery surrounding Ashara will get cleared up before the end of the series. Maybe we won't know everything, but the big questions will likely be answered. There's too much deliberate baiting of the readers with House Dayne tidbits for GRRM not to follow through and produce some info for us.

In The World of Ice and Fire we see this,

Quote

Yet even as Aerys donned his crown, in that fateful year of 262 AC, a lusty black-haired son named Robert had just been born to his cousin Steffon Baratheon and his lady wife at Storm's End, whilst far to the north at Winterfell, Lord Rickard celebrated the birth of his own son, Brandon. Another Stark, Eddard, followed within a year. (TWoI&F 113)

Thus establishing without question the years in which not only Brandon and Ned are born, but Robert also. Combine this with the short chapter on the Year of the False Spring which tells us the Harrenhal Tourney took place in Year 281,

Quote

In the Annals of Westeros, 281 AC is known as the Year of the False Spring. (TWoI&F 124)

Which only confirms what we have known since A Game of Thrones when Ned tells us,

Quote

The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of the false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. (AGoT 526) bold emphasis added

We can argue, if you want, about how old Ashara was at the Tourney, but the ages of Brandon and Ned are established fact. Neither one is twenty yet at the tourney.

Note that Ashara comes to court with the older Elia, and is likely to be of an age to keep her company. I take that to be anywhere from a little older than Elia, born in 256 or 257, to a little younger. We are arguing only the younger range because of Martin's comment putting her in her thirties, but it is quite a stretch to think of her as terribly younger than Elia, I think.  Being about Brandon and Ned's ages seems to fit well.

We agree that the mystery surrounding Ashara is likely to be cleared up by series end.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

In The World of Ice and Fire we see this,

Thus establishing without question the years in which not only Brandon and Ned are born, but Robert also. Combine this with the short chapter on the Year of the False Spring which tells us the Harrenhal Tourney took place in Year 281,

Which only confirms what we have known since A Game of Thrones when Ned tells us,

We can argue, if you want, about how old Ashara was at the Tourney, but the ages of Brandon and Ned are established fact. Neither one is twenty yet at the tourney.

Note that Ashara comes to court with the older Elia, and is likely to be of an age to keep her company. I take that to be anywhere from a little older than Elia, born in 256 or 257, to a little younger. We are arguing only the younger range because of Martin's comment putting her in her thirties, but it is quite a stretch to think of her as terribly younger than Elia, I think.  Being about Brandon and Ned's ages seems to fit well.

We agree that the mystery surrounding Ashara is likely to be cleared up by series end.

Thank you for the quotes. I haven't read The World of Ice and Fire.

 A lady in waiting could be anywhere from 14 to 50 (or even older). But I certainly hope Elia got to take along some friends of her own age when she went to court. Her Dornish friends were likely a great comfort with all the changes she had to go through.

At 18 or so Ashara still should have had some kind of marriage lined up. Catelyn was pretty young when Hoster told her she would marry Brandon Stark. Lysa is 15 when Hoster's trying to get her betrothed to Jaime Lannister. Sansa is engaged to Joffrey when she's 11. Myrcella is (I forget the exact age) pretty young when she's betrothed to Trystane Martell and sent to Dorne. We know Lyanna was betrothed to Robert before she was 15. And Renly wants to make 15-16 year old Margaery Tyrell Robert's new queen. No set age, but it seems like most noble maidens are spoken for or at least in negotiations by the time they come of age. Do we know if the Dornish have different ideas about age at betrothal? 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Back to the thread topic...

The main reason why Ned + anybody as Jon's parents doesn't work (trueborn or not) is that there is absolutely no reason why Ned would not have told Catelyn the truth at some point. Not at first, of course. He barely knew her when they got married. But over the 15 years they were together he came to love and trust her. The only reason for him to keep the truth about Jon's birth from his wife for that long is if the truth puts lives in danger, and that can only be the case if Ned believes that Jon is Rhaegar Targaryen's son. Catelyn resents Jon's presence as it is. How much more would she do so if she was aware that his mere existence threatened the safety of her entire family? And how would she react to the news that Robert was coming to Winterfell if she knew that Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar's child? There's no way she could keep that secret, even though she would desperately want to. She would accidentally give it away by trying so hard not to.

It always comes back to why Ned kept the truth to himself. And the only answer that ever makes sense is the Targaryen one. Doesn't mean Rhaegar absolutely has to be Jon's father (though it's really very likely), but Ned has to believe Jon has Targaryen blood.

[SFDanny]

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thank you for the quotes. I haven't read The World of Ice and Fire.

When you get the time, I highly recommend it. It's stock full of new information and new mysteries.

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 A lady in waiting could be anywhere from 14 to 50 (or even older). But I certainly hope Elia got to take along some friends of her own age when she went to court. Her Dornish friends were likely a great comfort with all the changes she had to go through.

I hope so as well, but one has to wonder whether Ashara is included in Elia's ladies-in -waiting because of her relationship to Elia or her relationship to her brother, the best friend of Rhaegar and a member of the Kingsguard? I'm sure Doran and the Red Viper would want some of Elia's close friends to be at court with her, but does that include Ashara?

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

At 18 or so Ashara still should have had some kind of marriage lined up. Catelyn was pretty young when Hoster told her she would marry Brandon Stark. Lysa is 15 when Hoster's trying to get her betrothed to Jaime Lannister. Sansa is engaged to Joffrey when she's 11. Myrcella is (I forget the exact age) pretty young when she's betrothed to Trystane Martell and sent to Dorne. We know Lyanna was betrothed to Robert before she was 15. And Renly wants to make 15-16 year old Margaery Tyrell Robert's new queen. No set age, but it seems like most noble maidens are spoken for or at least in negotiations by the time they come of age. Do we know if the Dornish have different ideas about age at betrothal? 

If the Sand Snakes are any indication then I'd say yes, Dorne has different ideas about the age of betrothals. But this could be more likely related to the ideas of Prince Oberyn Martell than the ideas of the Dornish in general. The other examples I'd argue are actually exceptions to the rule. Betrothals may be relatively early, but I'd expect, under normal conditions, for the marriage to wait until sixteen. What we see in your examples are marriages that have to do with war time needs, or the exceptional case of Rickard's southron ambitions. The Sansa/Joffrey example is early but the marriage is intended to be when the children are older.

None of which really speaks against your point. If Ashara is not betrothed at eighteen or nineteen, then she is likely a little late than normal for some type of marriage to be arranged. But not so far from normal to be thought strange. If she does become pregnant during Harrenhal, that would explain why she would go longer in life without a betrothal. I would think, however, that with her family name and her connections to the Crown Prince, under normal situations she could have some marriage arranged. One has to believe, I think, that Ashara did not want such a marriage and chose to have her child outside of marriage (more likely if Brandon is the father of her daughter), or that given the chaos of the times that it just couldn't be arranged (more likely if Ned is her child's father.)

[PCK]

Ehh, I think he's the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna. GRRM has kind of said that people have figured things out and that he isn't going to change them.

[The Twinslayer]

On 12/16/2016 at 9:49 AM, Ygrain said:

Your evidence points only to Jon having at least one Stark parent. Ned calling him his son is not evidence of anything. Ned also claimed that Jon's mother is Wylla, after all. You can't pick when to believe Ned and when not because it suits your theory.

Ned calling Jon his son is evidence -- it is a first hand account from someone in a position to know, which is some of the best evidence there is.  He could be telling the truth, he could be mistaken, or he could be lying.  So it is evidence that needs to be evaluated.  This theory evaluates the evidence and concludes that he is telling the truth about Jon being his son and that he is lying about Wylla being the mother.  

Quote

Hearsay =/= evidence, or else Lord Borrel's account would be equally valid and Jon would be born to two mothers. Barristan doesn't say which Stark it was, and there is a Stark who has a history of bedding maidens, and it's not Ned. Furthermore, we even have counterevidence in the person of Harwin, who doesn't believe the supposed HH romance ever took place, which you conveniently ignore.

The stories that Cersei and Cat (and Harwin) have heard are also evidence.  They aren't as good as a first hand account but that does not automatically make them false.  This theory evaluates the stories Cersei and Cat heard as well as the story Lord Borrel heard and concludes that Cersei and Cat heard the truth and Borrel heard a falsehood.

As far as Barristan goes, this is the best information we have about what happened with Ashara at the Harrenhal tourney.  And it provides an explanation for other things we learn:  it explains the rumors circulating in Winterfell of a Ned/Ashara romance; it ties in with the Reeds' story about the "shy wolf" wanting to dance with her; it explains why Ned got so angry when Catelyn mentioned Ashara that Cat was afraid of her husband, and the fact that Ned immediately made sure Ashara's name was never heard again; and it is consistent with what Harwin heard.  And if you read Harwin's account carefully, it sounds like he believes there was a Ned/Ashara romance but he is discounting it to make Arya feel better.

Quote

Incorrect. We see Ned tell at least one other lie, and that is when he claims responsibility for Catnapping.

You are correct.  I should have said it is the only vow he took when we know he is lying and we know exactly what the lie is.

Quote

Yes, he managed to get himself out of foreswearing himself before the old gods. 

And? Doesn't mean he foresore that one in the least.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

55 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

Ned calling Jon his son is evidence -- it is a first hand account from someone in a position to know, which is some of the best evidence there is.  He could be telling the truth, he could be mistaken, or he could be lying.  So it is evidence that needs to be evaluated.  This theory evaluates the evidence and concludes that he is telling the truth about Jon being his son and that he is lying about Wylla being the mother.  

Jon is Ned's son. Someone doesn't have to be the sperm or the egg donor of someone else in order to be his parent. A parent is someone who raises the child, loves, cares and even risk their lives for him not someone who just had sex the right time. So Ned is Jon's  father when it matters the most.

[The Twinslayer]

On 12/16/2016 at 3:59 PM, SFDanny said:

I think it is good to read your view of this, my friend! I tried to give a short handed version of what I think it would take to make this theory possible in the Heresy threads, and didn't do a very good job of it. As someone who has long supported this idea, I like that you're trying to set out your ideas for everyone to evaluate. In that spirit, let me give you my reaction to what you've written as well.

That Ashara is one of two people who are named as a possible mother to Jon is one of the strongest points for the theory. No doubt about that. The seeming contradiction of Wylla claiming to be his mother and her role in the Dayne household has always seemed a key question to me. I see that you deal with that in the last paragraph of your essay, so let me respond there concerning your solution.

Actually we also see Ned lie to Robert about his children as Robert as he lays dying from the boar attack. Ned does it to spare his friend and king the news of Cersei's betrayal but his lie is still there. But we also now he is haunted with the lies he tells. And we know he tells Arya that there are lies that are "not without honor." Ned lies when he sees it "honorable" to do so. I'd point to the times he does so as example of how he protects children and innocents and can only do so with lies. Certainly his lie on the Sept of Baelor's steps is an example of this. But then how is it "honorable" to lie to Lord Hoster Tully and to Catelyn and say he will marry her when he legally can't do so? No, I think it highly unlikely he would do so.

This is a lie of expediency, it makes it easier for the rebels to win, but has no honor in its trickery. I don't think it fits with what Ned would do.

Nor do I think Ned would use the excuse that the marriage was in a Sept and not in a Godswood to tell himself he is doing no harm or some how this wasn't a violation of the most intimate terms with Catelyn. Ned may well believe one can tell no lie before the heart tree of a godswood, but that doesn't mean he is willing to lie in a Sept.

I'd also point out that if it is important to Ned or the custom of the North to have a ceremony before the heart tree, then that could be done as well. That Catelyn remembers and recalls the wedding in the Sept may reflect what ceremony she thinks as important, not that one wasn't done in a godswood as well. We just don't know that.

Possible, but no positive evidence that he did so. In fact, if Ned refused to marry Catelyn, then I'd see it as a possible clue that he had other commitments, but that's not the case.

I think you are taking the quote about "no honor in that conquest" out of context, my friend. It is directly aimed at the Lannister sack of King's Landing. Not at the rebellion against Aerys. And, once again, let me say this is not, imo, the kind of lie Ned would even consider doing. To trick the Tullys and Catelyn about this is something I think would be totally out of Ned's character and something he would never do.

 

My question is how does one put a wife aside when one never acknowledges her?

We have been over the different descriptions of Jon and Young Griff a million times. That one has a more Targaryen look than the other really means nothing about who Jon's mother is. It does mean something about whether or not Young Griff could be Aegon, but that is an entirely different discussion. I agree with you that Ashara is likely still alive and living as Septa Lemore, but that doesn't indicate a thing about her being Jon's mother. 

Or this is just a way to show how Jon's status as a bastard effects even his most beloved brother in a matter as simple as play.

I think you are better off without the unsupported secret marriage as an explanation for any of this. We've talked before about how Martin's remarks about Ashara not being "nailed to the floor in Dorne" gives the opening for a meeting between Ned and Ashara during the timeline in question, and I still think that is the best idea for this theory. I don't have a problem with Ned not telling Robert or anyone else about such a meeting if it took place. It would place his family at risk to have been known to be sleeping with an intimate of Rhaegar's inner circle during the rebellion, and it is a stain on Ashara's honor that he would not readily admit to. The problem for me in all of this is that there really isn't any clues that any of this took place. No positive evidence. 

I also want to know why the Daynes say both there was a romance between Ned and Ashara, and then claim Wylla the household wet-nurse is the mother of Ned's child? This doesn't make any sense really. There is a deeper mystery here. I also notice you totally skip Ashara's stillborn child. Why? Is it timeline problems?

Anyway a few thoughts on your essay. A thought provoking one, even if I have my disagreements with it.

I appreciate your thoughts.  I am having trouble with the quote function so I'll just number my responses:

1.  Ned's lies

You are right, Ned does lie to Robert about Robert's children.  What makes that different from what I am suggesting is that his false confession takes the form of a religious oath.  The only time we see him do that, it is an oath to the Seven.  We only know of one other time he swore oaths to the Seven, and that is when he married Catelyn.  That opens up the possibility that his marriage vows to Catelyn were a lie, too.  If you re-read his thoughts on lying with that possibility in mind, it all makes sense.  Consider this:  he says he has been living his "lies," plural, for 14 years.  If that was about R+L=J, that would be one lie.  If, however, he lied at his wedding to Cat, he took seven false oaths (we know that the Faith have seven vows in a wedding ceremony) and he has been living those lies since his wedding. 

As for "honorable" vs "dishonorable" lies, I agree that Ned says that some lies are not without honor but I don't think that means his own lies were all honorable ones -- hence, the fact that he has lost so much sleep over them.

2.  No honor in that conquest

I think my reading is a fair one.  That passage starts with Ned remembering that the Rebellion lasted a year, so it is fair to assume that he is referring to the rebellion as a whole.  Also, the sentence immediately preceding "there was no honor in that conquest" is the one where Ned thinks that he has been living his lies for 14 years.  That does not refer to the Sack (or not just to the Sack) because Ned has told no lie about what happened to Elia and her children.  Everyone who was present, including Robert, knows that Lannister men killed Rhaegar's family.  That is why I think Ned is talking about the dishonor associated with his personal lies.  

3.  Putting aside Ashara

I don't think Ned formally put Ashara aside.  I think that when he arrived at Starfall and she presented him with their son, she may legitimately have expected him to take her back to Winterfell as his wife.  When he told her that was not going to happen, he effectively put her aside.  Just privately, not publicly.  

4.  Ned/Ashara meeting during the Rebellion

I think GRRM has deliberately omitted any positive evidence of this in order to keep the mystery alive.  It is very easy to see how it could have happened.  There is the old SSM that says she was not nailed to the floor at Starfall.  When he said that, it was clear that GRRM was planning to include something in ASOS about where she was during the rebellion, but that he later changed his mind and left that out.  We also know that when he gave that SSM, he planned to have her based in KL as a lady in waiting to Elia but that by the time of TWOIAF, he changed his mind and placed Elia at Dragonstone, at least at the outbreak of the rebellion.  So we know that Elia at least was moving around, with small children.  

We also have reason to think that the Daynes were friendly with the Whents.  It is possible that Ashara stayed at Harrenhal after the tournament and got stuck there when winter returned.  She could still have been there when Ned passed by with his army at the beginning of the Rebellion or on his way to or from Riverrun before and/or after his wedding to Cat.  

The reason I am suggesting that this could have involved a secret wedding is that that explains a number of otherwise mysterious statements and actions in AGOT:  Ned living his lies, Ned refusing to tell Cat or Jon about Jon's mother; Ned lying to Robert about Wylla; Ashara's suicide or disappearance; etc.

5.  The story out of Starfall

The fact that they acknowledge a Ned/Ashara romance bolsters the idea that there was one and, I think, shows that there was no Brandon/Ashara romance.  But they took up the Wylla story to be consistent with Ned's story.  Once Ashara was either dead or fled, there was no reason for them to try to publicize the wedding and alienate the Barratheons, Tullys and Arryns, not to mention causing problems for Ned and Jon. 

As far as the "stillborn daughter," there is a lot we don't know, but I would observe this.  First, Barristan says she killed herself "soon after," meaning that she got pregnant some time after the Harrenhal tournament.  If she got pregnant at the tournament, then her death would not be "soon after" the stillbirth.  Second, it is evidence that she was pregnant, meaning that there was a father.  Ned is one of only a few plausible candidates for that role -- the most plausible, if Allyria's story about a Ned/Ashara romance is true.  Third, the Daynes are not raising Ashara's child, so they have to have some explanation for why.  Perhaps they made up the story about the stillbirth to explain why there was no baby (and to explain why Ashara supposedly killed herself).  Fourth, if there was a stillborn daughter, it is possible that Ashara was carrying twins and that the boy survived while the daughter did not.  

6.  Jon's appearance

What Jon's appearance tells us is that one of his parents is a Stark.  Also, given the fact that when AGOT was written, there were no Targs who lacked purple eyes and silver or gold hair, and the Appendix says that Targaryen heritage is proclaimed by those traits, I think Jon's appearance is a clue that he is not related to Rhaegar.  Of course it isn't conclusive -- starting with The Hedge Knight, we were shown that there were a small number of Targs who lacked those traits -- but it is some evidence.  

I also think that if R+L=J, Ned made a big mistake claiming Jon was his son.  Many of the non-Targ looking Targs had children with purple eyes and golden hair.  What was Ned planning to say to Robert if Jon produced a child who was obviously dragonspawn?  Unless Ned always planned to send Jon to the Wall, he was taking an enormous risk.

Unless, of course, Jon is really Ned's son.  

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

1.  Ned's lies

You are right, Ned does lie to Robert about Robert's children.  What makes that different from what I am suggesting is that his false confession takes the form of a religious oath.  The only time we see him do that, it is an oath to the Seven.  We only know of one other time he swore oaths to the Seven, and that is when he married Catelyn.  That opens up the possibility that his marriage vows to Catelyn were a lie, too.

It might be a subtle difference, but would the marriage involve swearing an oath to the Seven, or swearing an oath to Catelyn?

Also, I'm thinking of when Catelyn and Brienne were exchanging oaths. Not only did they swear them to each other (not to any gods) but Catelyn specifically swore "by the old gods and the new". There's no indication that, by doing so, she repudiated her own religious faith by swearing to gods that she personally doesn't follow.

 

3 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

 What was Ned planning to say to Robert if Jon produced a child who was obviously dragonspawn?

That might be where Ashara Dayne comes in. (Also, if Jon himself had resembled the Targs, the Daynes could be a plausible refuge for him. Perhaps part of the reason Ned returned to Starfall after the tower of joy was just in case Jon looked like a Targ, in which case the Daynes instead of Ned would raise him.)

[asongofheresy]

On 12/16/2016 at 6:05 AM, The Twinslayer said:

It is time to dust off an old theory to take into account more recent information contained in ADWD.  Here it is.

Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara, they were married before Ned married Cat, so Jon is legitimate. 

The evidence for Ned being the father is that Ned says so:  "Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him 'son' for all the north to see."  It also helps that Ned looks like a Stark, based on the description in the books and that Craster points it out. 

The evidence for Ashara being the mother is that Catelyn and Cersei have both heard that Ashara is the mother and Barristan (that is from ADWD) says that Ashara "turned to Stark" at Harrenhall.  Plus, when Catelyn asks about Ashara, Ned shuts her down, asks where she heard Ashara's name, and ensures that "Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again." 

What is the theory that Ned and Ashara were married?  Here it is.  We only see Ned ever tell one lie where we know he is lying and we know the exact nature of the lie.  It happens right before he is killed, and he lies about committing treason:  "I plotted to depose and murder his son and seize the throne for myself.  Let the High Septon and Baelor the Beloved and the Seven bear witness to the truth of what I say:  Joffrey Baratheon is the one true heir to the Iron Throne." 

The point is that Ned swore that this lie was true to the Seven -- not the Old Gods.  So he would not swear to a lie before the Old Gods, but he managed to do it to the Seven. 

We only know of one other oath he took to the Seven:  his marriage vows to Catelyn.  "And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed to sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully." 

You would think that the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North would wed in the godswood, before the heart tree.  Why did Ned not do that?  The answer is that he had already married before the Old Gods, when he married Ashara.  Barristan thinks she turned to Stark and was dishonored at Harrenhal.  So Ned and Ashara had sex.  Add to this the fact that, when Robb beds and then immediately weds Jeyne, we are told (by Tywin) that Robb is his "father's son."  Is this a clue that Ned bedded Ashara at Harrenhal and then immediately afterwards, he wed her -- just like Robb? 

Now, why would Ned marry Cat if he was already married to Ashara, knowing that polygamy is illegal in the Seven Kingdoms?  ASOS provides the answer:  after the Battle of the Bells, the rebels needed to secure the Tully alliance, and Hoster insisted on marrying his daughters to Ned and Jon Arryn.  Ned, freshly (but secretly) married to Ashara, had to agree to marry Catelyn (publicly) to secure the alliance.  Is this one of the reasons why Ned tells Robert:  "There was no honor in that conquest."  Because the Tully alliance was secured by a public marriage (to Catelyn) that repudiated the secret, prior marriage to Ashara?

The old theory was that all of this explained why Ashara committed suicide:  she found out that her "husband" had put her aside and taken a new wife, so she killed herself.  But perhaps there is a better theory. 

Lyanna died in a "bed of blood," suggesting that she may have had a child by Rhaegar after Rhaegar kidnapped her.  Post-ADWD, we can tie up that loose end by suggesting that Ashara did not kill herself after all:  she reinvented herself as Septa Lemore and smuggled the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna out to Essos to live in exile and to one day take the name Young Griff -- which ties in nicely with the statement in the appendix to AGOT that "The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon, descended from the high lords of the ancient Freehold of Valyria, their heritage proclaimed in a striking (some say inhuman) beauty, with lilac or indigo or violet eyes and hair of silver-gold or platinum white."  Of course, Young Griff fits that description while Jon does not.

Which all brings into ironic focus Jon's memory of play-fighting with Robb and pretending he is wielding Ice only to have Robb tell him he can't wield Ice because he is not the Lord of Winterfell.  In fact, Jon should be the Lord of Winterfell.

It also answers the usual questions from the R+L=J thread, like "if Ashara is Jon's mother, why did Ned never tell him."  The answer is that Ned can't get into the fact that he married Ashara before he married Catelyn without undermining the alliance that put Robert on the throne.  "Why did Ned lie to Robert and say the mother was Wylla."  Because he didn't want to rip open the alliance and he did not want to confuse the line of succession for Winterfell.  And so on.     

What do you think?

I might love you for this thread :'( 

I am a supporter of R+L = A or Young Griff and N+A = J 

Ashara being Jon's mother would explain why Ned never told Jon about his mother. You know Ned could say "Jon, your mother died in childbirth." And no one would suspect of Lyanna being Jon's mother because shit load of women seem to die of childbirth in ASOIAF and no one knew Lyanna had a baby. So Catelyn stops asking about Jon's mother, Jon stop asking about his mother, everything is nice. 

But if the mother is Ashara, Ned can't say she died because we know GRRM said Ashara's body wasn't found and she didn't actually commited suicide as fans seem to believe, she said there are horses and boats in Dorne too, so Ashara taking Lyanna's very Targaryen child to Essos, with ex Winterfell Measter Wallace Flowers to Jon Connington would explain the mystery of her death, and why Rhaegar's second son is also named Aegon and not another name. Since we know they passed Young Griff as Elia's to Jon Connington - that was the only was he would help them.

 If anyone has suspicions of this theories Order of The Greenhand has eleven videos that explain these theories. 

[TMIFairy]

Yay for thread necromancy!

1 - Ned marrying Catelyn in a Sept - AFAIK it is quite common in Christian countries for the marriage to take place at the bride's parish. Hence the ceremony being in her church is perfectly natural.

2 - Ned splitting his oaths between ""true vows" made before the Old Gods and "lying through his teeth vows" made before the Seven - that strikes me as "Lawful Evil", or "Neutral Lawful" at best. Who you made the vow to matters only to sleazo's like LF or dicks like Darth Vader. I am not saying that Ned would not lie or make false vows if necessary - but IMO he'd accept it as a lie and not go into hair splitting.

3 - Jon's children having violet eyes and/or white-blond hair - that's simple! Explain it as a throwback to his momma, a Valyrian-featured commoner from Dragonstone making a living somewhere on the Continent, or an immigrant from the Free Cities.

4 - Jon being a "legit Stark" and being cheated out of his birthright - that's a good reason to never disclose to Catelyn the mystery of his origins, n'cest pas? Although my pet theory ATM is that Jon is Brandon;s or Rickard's, hence - if legit or legitimised - coming before Ned himself

5 - the timeline allows for Jon to be only 2-3 months older than Robb, and thus this age difference being easily fudged over when an almost year old Robb arrives at Winterfell.

 

[Wild Bill]

Nice thread. Glad to see it "revisited".

It has been obvious for some time that Jon is the offspring of Lyanna, and Ashara - due to some interesting gender reassignment and such...

And, Jon does not have a Y chromosome, which might explain some behavior characteristics... Particularly relating to Ygritte. It's hard to say since there is clearly a significant level of testosterone in him - perhaps a comparison of him and Brienne would be instructive...

[TMIFairy]

41 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

It has been obvious for some time that Jon is the offspring of Lyanna, and Ashara - due to some interesting gender reassignment and such...

And, Jon does not have a Y chromosome, which might explain some behavior characteristics... Particularly relating to Ygritte. It's hard to say since there is clearly a significant level of testosterone in him - perhaps a comparison of him and Brienne would be instructive...

LOL!

Jon and/or Brienne could have any sort of X and Y issues.

E.g. Brienne could have some form of Androgene Insesitivity Syndrome while Jon the "XX male"/"de la Chapelle syndrome". 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Yea Ned say's he's the father.

Ned's story to Robert and all is that he fathered Jon on Wylla after he had wed Cat.

Edric Dayne's story is that Ashara and Eddard fell for each other but that Ashara killed her self upon Eddard fathering Jon on Wylla.

So going off what Ned "say's"..... I'd call him a liar to his face and risk his honor haha

Ned married cat at the latest of march of 283 to father Rob that same year at the latest in December.

Jon was born near the sack of K.L. which could only be 3 or 4 months after the wedding at max. So there's no way Eddard could've fathered Jon on any one after wedding  Cat. 

His lie is a bad one. Ashara as Jon's mother works just as less as Wylla as when Jon was being conceived, Eddard was in the North rallying his troops and marching down the road.

Cat's worry about Ashara is backed by only her own insecurities. 

The text i think clearly implies Lyanna is Jon's mother. Hence  Jon looking like Arya and Arya looking like Lyanna and the other a million subtle clues. 

The only Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys.

[Wild Bill]

16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea Ned say's he's the father.

Ned's story to Robert and all is that he fathered Jon on Wylla after he had wed Cat.

Edric Dayne's story is that Ashara and Eddard fell for each other but that Ashara killed her self upon Eddard fathering Jon on Wylla.

So going off what Ned "say's"..... I'd call him a liar to his face and risk his honor haha

Ned married cat at the latest of march of 283 to father Rob that same year at the latest in December.

Jon was born near the sack of K.L. which could only be 3 or 4 months after the wedding at max. So there's no way Eddard could've fathered Jon on any one after wedding  Cat. 

His lie is a bad one. Ashara as Jon's mother works just as less as Wylla as when Jon was being conceived, Eddard was in the North rallying his troops and marching down the road.

Cat's worry about Ashara is backed by only her own insecurities. 

The text i think clearly implies Lyanna is Jon's mother. Hence  Jon looking like Arya and Arya looking like Lyanna and the other a million subtle clues. 

The only Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys.

I'm not sure how we can work this into the theory of Lyanna + Ashara = Jon. Wylla is a complication. We might need a male donor here, despite my prior post. The med technology in Volantis is pretty amazing, but still...

Perhaps there is a solution:

Exactly. BR warged rhaegar's sperm and kept it alive in various animals he was warging for a journey north so it could be used to impregnate gilly! Aemon is TPTWP,  AA reborn and the song of ice and fire!!!!!!!!!!

 Dorian Martell's son was on the right path in his post, but a little off target, me thinks. 

[Luddagain]

I fully support this theory but with a few modifications.

 

1.  Jon was NOT conceived at Harrenhall. He is too young to be that child.  I think that child is in fact Aegon, the child of Ashara and Aerys. Ashara turned to a Stark for help in escaping Aerys, which probably explains why Aerys was so hostile and why Lyanna was kidnapped. probably the child was left with Elia as a substitute for HER stillborn daughter

2. Jon is a second child of Ashara, fathered by Ned (yes the timelines work) and I agree he married her via the heart tree so that Jon is legitimate. Jon would therefore be about 15 months younger than baby Aegon which is fully consistent with Aegon's assumed age when he was supposedly killed ie a baby of 15 months or so. 15 months between children is a very common age gap or it was in the days before the pill. (eg my own brother and sister). 11 months is also very possible (I know several with this age difference). My assumption is that Ned and Ashara got together some time during Ned's flight home and that Ashara was perhaps indeed the "fisherman's daughter" - where was he father at the time?

3. Why did Ned then marry Catelyn? I think it is because Catelyn was ALREADY pregnant via Brandon.  This would explain why Ned accepted the situation - he would feel that Brandon's son was the rightful heir in any case. Probably Ned was not aware that Ashara was indeed pregnant when he married Catelyn but it explains why he married her.

Thus Jon is about 2 months younger than Robb. Ned could never tell Catelyn the truth, nor indeed Robert if the truth also involved those close to the Targs.

 

 

However 

[TMIFairy]

7 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I fully support this theory but with a few modifications.

 

Full agreement with #1.

The "Jon not conceived at Harrenhall" part. I dunno about the rest ...

Nos. 2 and 3 are quite interesting.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I fully support this theory but with a few modifications.

 

1.  Jon was NOT conceived at Harrenhall. He is too young to be that child.  I think that child is in fact Aegon, the child of Ashara and Aerys. Ashara turned to a Stark for help in escaping Aerys, which probably explains why Aerys was so hostile and why Lyanna was kidnapped. probably the child was left with Elia as a substitute for HER stillborn daughter

2. Jon is a second child of Ashara, fathered by Ned (yes the timelines work) and I agree he married her via the heart tree so that Jon is legitimate. Jon would therefore be about 15 months younger than baby Aegon which is fully consistent with Aegon's assumed age when he was supposedly killed ie a baby of 15 months or so. 15 months between children is a very common age gap or it was in the days before the pill. (eg my own brother and sister). 11 months is also very possible (I know several with this age difference). My assumption is that Ned and Ashara got together some time during Ned's flight home and that Ashara was perhaps indeed the "fisherman's daughter" - where was he father at the time?

3. Why did Ned then marry Catelyn? I think it is because Catelyn was ALREADY pregnant via Brandon.  This would explain why Ned accepted the situation - he would feel that Brandon's son was the rightful heir in any case. Probably Ned was not aware that Ashara was indeed pregnant when he married Catelyn but it explains why he married her.

Thus Jon is about 2 months younger than Robb. Ned could never tell Catelyn the truth, nor indeed Robert if the truth also involved those close to the Targs.

 

 

However 

I cant wrap my head around any of this. 

Whyy would Eddard falsely claim he cheated on Catelyn? Especially since under your theory the children aren't Targs and their is no reason to hide them. Ned is the Lord of Winterfell and can do what he wants as a single man. Why even create all this head ache down the road for a point less lie that accomplishes nothing but make Eddard look like a lying cheat. 

Ned married Catelyn to gain Riverrun's alliance. What more reason could he even need beyond this? A hard choice yes, specially given he may have had feelings for Ashara ( But kids??? I dont see it), but a necessary choice. Aerys had called for Eddard's head with out Eddard having done anything, he has no choice but to fight. So he either wed's Cat or lose the war and dies. 

And number 1?? how is that even possible? The Tourney of Harrenhal was late in 281 with the Smiling knight first of that year, followed by the Tourney at Old Town, followed by Lord Steffon's Tourney at Storm's End, then come Harrenhal. So that would mean Aegon wouldn't have been born till the war had already started. That does not work into the time frame. 

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

What Tywin Lannister made of this is not recorded, but in 266 AC, at Casterly Rock, Lady Joanna gave birth to a pair of twins, a girl and a boy, "healthy and beautiful, with hair like beaten gold." 

 

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I 

 And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the SmilingKnight instead.

 

We know Harrenhal was after as Rhaegar took Lyanna after Harrenhal and participated in no more Tourneys

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

"He won some tourneys, surely," said Dany, disappointed.
"When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day."
"Was he the champion, then?"

 

 

Quote

 

The information about this tourney is problematic because some details in A Storm of Swords conflict. In response, George R. R. Martin suggested that the outlaw Simon Toyne was already dead by this time and the elderly Ser Barristan misremembered.[15]

 
FEBRUARY 12, 2001

SOME CONTINUITY ODDITIES

[Note: The first part of this entry is an excerpt from a mail in response to a note that there seems to be a continuity error in SoS, concerning the date of the death of the outlaw Simon Toyne and Rhaegar's defeat of him at the tourney at Storm's End, as reported by Ser Barristan early in the book and as recorded in The White Book.]

Ooops. Good catch...

As to this glitch... I think my defense in that the account in The White Book is correct. Ser Barristan is an old man, after all, recounting things that happened in his youth. You ought to see me and my friends sitting around at a con:

ME: Hey, remember Torcon 2, when Joe Haldeman found two naked girls in a bathtub of grape jello. Alice and Angela, wasn't it?

SOMEONE ELSE: It was lime jello, you idiot, and it was Big Mac, not Torcon. Three were three girls -- Betty, Veronica, and Lee.

JOE: Lime jello, two girls, it was Applesusan and Avedon, and it was Discon.

In other words, Ser Barristan is undoubtingly conflating events that happened at two or three different tourneys. Any way, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dr8agons: The Year of the False Spring

In the annals of Westeros, 281 AC is known as the Year of the False Spring. Winter had held the land in its icy grip for close on two years, but now at last the snows were melting, the woods were greening, the days were growing longer. Though the white ravens had not yet flown, there were many even at the Citadel of Oldtown who believed that winter's end was nigh.

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

 

 

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Any way, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

What GRRM really means is "I fucked up but I'm blaming Barristan's faulty memory". Which is why I'm sceptical about theories that rely on "unreliable narrator" when the reality is in some cases it's more like unreliable author.