Doctor who Series 10; He has been away for a while but he is back! Contains spoilers.

[GrimTuesday]

I like the episode, and am glad that some folks fears about not seeing the TARDIS for a while were unfounded. I agree that having three companions is somewhat bogging things down a bit, considering that we only have ~42 minutes each week for establishing characters and growing them. I'm not one to complain about PC culture or anything like that, but it kind of feels like they have tried to tick off a bunch of boxes on some BBC mandated diversity checklist and it has lead to a bit of bloat. I would love to see any two of these companions (though I think the one I most would have liked to see was Ryan's Grandmother, but that wasn't meant to be), but all three feels like overkill.

 

Anyone else really digging the theme remix?

[Seli]

I quite liked the episode, and Whittacker is the Doctor.

But dialogue is still a bit stilted at times, and it does seem the editing was bit too tight cutting to quickly from scene to scene not allowing them to breath as much as I'd like.

17 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Odd choice for a premiere ep, felt more like it should have been the 4th episode of the season.   Are Bill and her deific lesbian space entity just not part of this new run, or will they pop up again.   I wrongly assumed they'd carry over and play a direct role in catching the doctor's fall.  And nobody here is Jenna Coleman anymore, plus no crazy Capaldi rants, so viewing is now optional?

There ought to be no carryover of characters or even alien species from Doctor Who history. All new all the time. Of course the show-runners have been known to bend the truth. So a nice new jumping on point.

[polishgenius]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

But I think polish's point is, are you confident that you know enough about dyspraxia to make that last statement? 

That is exactly my point. Dyspraxia is a lot more than just a co-ordination disorder, and though I understand that the show can't sit down and deliver lectures on the subject what I am saying is that a lot of Ryan's behaviour is very reminiscent of the issues dyspraxia causes beyond just the clumsiness- it's why I say I'm certain they have a dyspraxic on the writing staff. To see it dismissed as whingy and thick and as I got older somewhat immature is exactly the sort of thing I've lived pretty much my whole life hearing, so of course I'm personalising it.
If they're going to deal with it properly then him developing won't just involve him getting less whingy, though of course confidence and less complaining will be important, but other characters (Graham, specifically) accepting that it isn't something that goes away and at some level will always need help with. Like, the ladder mini-plot-thread- I have the fear that it'll end with Ryan needing to climb a ladder for heroic purposes and succeeding, but it'd be much more true-to-life, satisfying and probably useful to see it ending with Ryan getting ready to but Graham offering to do it because he understands why Ryan's freaking out.

If you're referring otherwise to his interactions with Graham over Grace- his nan, the woman who's been raising him, just died. He's allowed to be moody there too, give that time. And I was also thinking, I hope that Graham's insistence on Ryan calling him 'grandad' ends with Graham accepting that Ryan can love him as family without calling him that rather than with Ryan calling him grandad at some point. Because that's not how it should work, insisting that the kid accept you like that, and frankly expecting it from someone who was almost grown when you came into the family is quite odd.

[red snow]

I liked the episode a bit more despite them just running around a beach for an hour. While I like they have more companions they've yet to make good use of them all and it feels as if the writing can only deal with pairs or on occasion 3 of them rather than all 4 doing something. It's early days though and I can see how pairing them off allows some focus.

The Doctor is feeling like the Doctor. The only thing is that the Doctor seems to be doing more exposition than usual with "this is EM" "this is a robot" "this is a room" etc, etc. But that's always been a trick the writers have used to set the scene quicker.

[Werthead]

Quote

There ought to be no carryover of characters or even alien species from Doctor Who history. All new all the time. Of course the show-runners have been known to bend the truth. So a nice new jumping on point.

Total reboots of the show's cast and format between distinct "eras" are very common, especially when a new showrunner takes over who wants to completely vary the tone of the show. The new mandate seems to be relatively (at least compared to Moffat) comprehensible storylines, a somewhat more serious (but not completely) tone and a bit more jeopardy to events, hence the somewhat surprising bodycount in Episode 1. The idea here also seems to be to create a small mystery - the Timeless Child thing - which presumably will be addressed in the season finale. It's structurally more like Davies' first season and tonally more like something like McCoy: a hint of darkness and whimsy. Of course, after 2 episodes it may be a bit early to say that's completely the case and we'll see how it goes.

Two things the show are massively benefitting from are the new composer, who so far (again, early days) is wiping the floor with Murray Gold, and the new filming techniques they are using, which make the show look really epic, even in Sheffield. The location filming in South Africa helped as well for the second episode.

[polishgenius]

30 minutes ago, Werthead said:

who so far (again, early days) is wiping the floor with Murray Gold,

I don't know why you have such a dislike of Gold's work, but I do agree that Segun Akinola has been doing a great job so far. The music in the Tardis scene is fantastic.


 

 

On 10/15/2018 at 5:44 PM, Seli said:

There ought to be no carryover of characters or even alien species from Doctor Who history. All new all the time. Of course the show-runners have been known to bend the truth. So a nice new jumping on point.

They said there'd be no old enemies whatsoever, but they also said there'd be no arc and hinted the Tardis would be absent all season, so...

It'll be interesting if they do avoid any established enemy though, especially the Daleks, given what I've always understood to be the situation with the rights for the Daleks being owned by Terry Nation's estate and having to be included every season otherwise the BBC no longer have permission to use them. I'd be fine with that- the Daleks could use a long rest- but I'd be surprised if the Beeb allowed that to happen.

 

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

They said there'd be no old enemies whatsoever, but they also said there'd be no arc and hinted the Tardis would be absent all season, so...

It'll be interesting if they do avoid any established enemy though, especially the Daleks, given what I've always understood to be the situation with the rights for the Daleks being owned by Terry Nation's estate and having to be included every season otherwise the BBC no longer have permission to use them. I'd be fine with that- the Daleks could use a long rest- but I'd be surprised if the Beeb allowed that to happen.

I wonder how much they have to use the Daleks to fulfil the contract? Maybe they could just have them make a cameo appearance without being the real enemy in an episode.

[red snow]

8 hours ago, williamjm said:

I wonder how much they have to use the Daleks to fulfil the contract? Maybe they could just have them make a cameo appearance without being the real enemy in an episode.

I didn't realise that daleks had to be used every season in order to keep them. Has that really been the case? It felt like there weren't any with capaldi. Then again I maybe just don't remember them suggesting they probably do require a rest.

I guess one dalek could appear in a scene as a victim of some other alien. It seems the alien mentioned in both episodes this season is being set up as a threat. Having them kill a few daleks is a cheap way of boosting their street cred.

[polishgenius]

17 hours ago, williamjm said:

I wonder how much they have to use the Daleks to fulfil the contract? Maybe they could just have them make a cameo appearance without being the real enemy in an episode.

The way I've always understood it is that it doesn't have to be a Dalek-centric ep but the Nation estate do get veto over the appearances (not sure what happens to the rights in that instance, tbh, it seems weird).

I've gone had a look to see if I can find anything: there's no real confirmation of this. There is an interview with Moffatt denying it, but let's he honest that means shit.

Here is a decent discussion on reddit about the whole idea.


 

 

9 hours ago, red snow said:

It felt like there weren't any with capaldi. Then again I maybe just don't remember them suggesting they probably do require a rest.

Capaldi had Into the Dalek, which was pretty good, and The Magician's Apprentice/Witches Familiar, which was almost really really good but was let down by a spectacularly stupid ending.

There wasn't a Dalek episode in his final season, but the 'good' Dalek from Into the Dalek made a cameo appearance in the last episode.

There wasn't a Dalek episode in Series 6, I don't think, but I'm fairly sure one made a cameo in Wedding of River Song? If that's wrong than that would put a big hole in that theory.

[felice]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

There wasn't a Dalek episode in his final season, but the 'good' Dalek from Into the Dalek made a cameo appearance in the last episode.

Weren't there also Daleks vs Movellans in the first episode?

[john]

Yeah, there was like a detached Dalek head in the series 6 finale that the Doctor uses as part of his plan to defeat the Silence by shrinking down and hiding in a time travelling robot version of himself (ah, the Moffat era).  I’d heard, or maybe I just assumed, that that was their way of keeping control of the issue with the Nation estate, that legally even a brief glimpse of a Dalek once a season is enough.

[red snow]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The way I've always understood it is that it doesn't have to be a Dalek-centric ep but the Nation estate do get veto over the appearances (not sure what happens to the rights in that instance, tbh, it seems weird).

I've gone had a look to see if I can find anything: there's no real confirmation of this. There is an interview with Moffatt denying it, but let's he honest that means shit.

Here is a decent discussion on reddit about the whole idea.


 

 

Capaldi had Into the Dalek, which was pretty good, and The Magician's Apprentice/Witches Familiar, which was almost really really good but was let down by a spectacularly stupid ending.

There wasn't a Dalek episode in his final season, but the 'good' Dalek from Into the Dalek made a cameo appearance in the last episode.

There wasn't a Dalek episode in Series 6, I don't think, but I'm fairly sure one made a cameo in Wedding of River Song? If that's wrong than that would put a big hole in that theory.

Interesting read about the Terry nation estate and Dr Who. It makes sense they'd insist on a regular appearance so that they get money and presumably the exposure helps sell merchandise which they also get a cut of. On the other hand it looks like small cameos work too based on the above discussion. I guess if the daleks were absent for too long the Nation estate would kick off.

It's sort of cool, yet bizarre by modern standards that the BBC would allow the writers to own the creations for the show. I bet all the modern writers had to sign a waiver giving ownership of new characters to the BBC.

[mormont]

Well, that episode was, um... well-intentioned?

[polishgenius]

24 minutes ago, mormont said:

Well, that episode was, um... well-intentioned?

I liked it.

[Spockydog]

26 minutes ago, mormont said:

Well, that episode was, um... well-intentioned?

Gets a hard 10 from me. Haven't been moved like this by Doctor Who since Vincent and the Doctor. 

 

[mormont]

9 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I liked it.

I liked a lot about it, to be fair. Vinette Robinson gives a tremendous performance as Rosa Parks: the rest of the cast do very well too, but the episode stands or falls on the one key moment, and Robinson has to carry that. And does.

And look, if you're going to do a Rosa Parks episode it has to be about that moment. And the episode is careful to avoid some of the pitfalls. Most importantly, Rosa still takes her stand from her own inner conviction.

On top of that, the episode is educational and timely, and well researched.

But... I do have reservations. Part of me feels that the cast get too involved. And the decision to make Yazz, the Doctor and Graham part of the white section on the bus that forces the confrontation is the principal issue I have there, and it's something about which I'm still thinking. It gives the episode a hugely powerful moment, particularly for Graham. But that's an issue in itself, because, frankly, this isn't Graham's story. That's the problem with inserting the cast into that moment: inevitably, you make it about them to some degree.

But more so, up to this point the episode has depicted racism as coming largely at the hands of angry, violent white men, caricature racists really. The sheriff, Blake, Krasko, the guy who slaps Ryan. They all bully, shout, threaten and throw their weight around at the slightest excuse. So the choice to put the three principal cast there, explicitly saying that they have to participate in the racist system on the bus, leaves me wondering: what message was that sending?

I don't think the intention was to send a message about general white complicity in racism, not least because there was a woman of colour in that group. But what does that leave us? The idea that by participating in a racist system, they were serving a greater good? That's all kinds of problematic, surely?

You might say 'there was no message, they just wanted to put the characters there to witness this moment' but I don't think you can opt out like that. The characters being where they were, when they were, carries meaning, intended or not. They were put there on purpose: it's reasonable to ask what that says. 

I also wonder about the moment where Ryan blasts Krasko into the timestream, which I have to see as an act of violence too. I hope that's something the writers are going to come back to.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

I don't think the intention was to send a message about general white complicity in racism,

Maybe it was. And if it was, it's a message that's pretty much on point, considering the state of the world today.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

I also wonder about the moment where Ryan blasts Krasko into the timestream, which I have to see as an act of violence too. I hope that's something the writers are going to come back to.

I dunno. Blasting some murderous asshole space nazi back to the time of the dinosaurs seems pretty appropriate to me.

[mormont]

18 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Maybe it was. And if it was, it's a message that's pretty much on point, considering the state of the world today.

It's possible, but as I say, every other depiction of the racist system is unambiguously a Bad Person doing Bad Things. And yet suddenly we have the Doctor, Graham and Yazz - Yazz, who earlier spoke passionately about being a victim of racism - as complicit in the oppression? And dialogue where they explicitly say the characters have no choice but to be complicit? 

18 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I dunno. Blasting some murderous asshole space nazi back to the time of the dinosaurs seems pretty appropriate to me.

Justified, perhaps, but it's an act of violence from a character who I've seen up to this point as quite gentle.

[Spockydog]

32 minutes ago, mormont said:

It's possible, but as I say, every other depiction of the racist system is unambiguously a Bad Person doing Bad Things. And yet suddenly we have the Doctor, Graham and Yazz - Yazz, who earlier spoke passionately about being a victim of racism - as complicit in the oppression? And dialogue where they explicitly say the characters have no choice but to be complicit? 

Justified, perhaps, but it's an act of violence from a character who I've seen up to this point as quite gentle.

I haven't got the slightest problem with racists being unambiguously depicted as bad people, because they are. Considering the target audience of show, you don't need anything more sophisticated than this.

At the beginning of the episode I was worried they were going to make the Doctor the hero of Parks' story. But they didn't. Having the doctor and her companions on the bus allowed us to witness Rosa's bravery. And to say they were complicit ignores the fact that they all knew how important this moment was. They didn't want to be there, but if they weren't, then Krasko would have won.

And as for Ryan being gentle, what about his CoD moment when he smoked those robots last week?

[mormont]

20 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I haven't got the slightest problem with racists being unambiguously depicted as bad people, because they are. Considering the target audience of show, you don't need anything more sophisticated than this.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm saying I'm not sure the choice to put the Doctor and her companions in that position of complicity was intended to show how even ordinary white people are complicit in racism, because (among other things) that would be a bit of a switch from how the show has depicted racism in the rest of the episode.

I dunno. I'm still wrestling with it a bit. 

20 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

At the beginning of the episode I was worried they were going to make the Doctor the hero of Parks' story. But they didn't. Having the doctor and her companions on the bus allowed us to witness Rosa's bravery. And to say they were complicit ignores the fact that they all knew how important this moment was. They didn't want to be there, but if they weren't, then Krasko would have won.

There's no need for the Doctor and Graham and Yaz to be there for that, though. Ryan would be enough. For that matter, none of the team being on the bus would be enough. They could simply have made sure Rosa got on the bus, and then the makers could have had the camera switch to follow Rosa, leaving it as her moment alone.

Instead they made what is quite clearly a deliberate choice to insert the white characters into the centre of the moment, and I'm still figuring out what that means, particularly as it was (presumably) a choice the black co-writer either made or signed off on.

20 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

And as for Ryan being gentle, what about his CoD moment when he smoked those robots last week?

Well, firstly it was played as a joke, and secondly they were robots. But this may be me reading the character wrong, I suppose.