Heresy 193 Winterfell

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The Romans built everything with round columns, and later the Moors arrived and built square ones.  As far as I know, both built round and square buildings.  What I take from the tower is that it wasn't built by the same people who built everything else.  Just another clue that Winterfell was not raised all at once in its present state by Bran the Builder, but has been around a very long time, with various additions made at different times.

The Winterfell we see today is an example of a very large High Mediaeval castle. The original, as laid out by Bob the Builder, appears to have been a typical Celtic ringwork, like the Fist but on the vast scale of Maiden Castle in Dorset. The round First Tower may well have come later, but again long pre-dating the stone towers, walls and halls overlying the originals.

Something occurring to me as I write this is that its entirely possible Bob the Builder's fame may rest on his raising the tower and that the ringwork surrounding the site is older still. That's just idle speculation though and unlikely to make a blind bit of difference to the core proposition that Winterfell is first and fofremost a place of magic centering on the pool and underground chambers. 

 

[LynnS]

Living in the caves would make some sense as well akin to prehistoric man with a series of occupations.  Which might explain some of the bones in the cave of the greenseer.  Wolves, bears, giants, cotf,  then men; given access to ground source heat.  But I think the power of the place resides in the weirwood tree.  Going back to Whitetree where Jon can feel the power of the place and I wonder if it is the tree that protects itself with warding.  The Black Gate seems to be connected to the weirwood breaking through the stone, reaching for the moon.  A ghost face that is entered through a gaping mouth; another reminder of Whitetree with a gaping mouth of another kind.  The first thing that Melisandre does when Stannis takes Storm's End is burn the weirwood.  I'm not sure if the text indicates that she is able to enter afterwards.

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[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Living in the caves would make some sense as well akin to prehistoric man with a series of occupations.  Which might explain some of the bones in the cave of the greenseer.  Wolves, bears, giants, cotf,  then men; given access to ground source heat.  But I think the power of the place resides in the weirwood tree.  Going back to Whitetree where Jon can feel the power of the place and I wonder if it is the tree that protects itself with warding.  The Black Gate seems to be connected to the weirwood breaking through the stone, reaching for the moon.  A ghost face that is entered through a gaping mouth; another reminder of Whitetree with a gaping mouth of another kind.  The first thing that Melisandre does when Stannis takes Storm's End is burn the weirwood.  I'm not sure if the text indicates that she is able to enter afterwards.

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The tree is undoubtedly important, but what makes the site different from say Whiteree is the combination of tree, pool and chambers.

As to Storm's End, I've just been rereading Clash of Kings and there's nothing specific about Mel entering the place, although I think that we can infer that from the destruction of the weirwood. So far as the warding is concerned I'd imagine its pretty straightforward. Once the castle was surrendered she was to all intents and purposes if not necessarily explicitly invited in; which negates all warding.

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Living in the caves would make some sense as well akin to prehistoric man with a series of occupations.  Which might explain some of the bones in the cave of the greenseer.  Wolves, bears, giants, cotf,  then men; given access to ground source heat.  But I think the power of the place resides in the weirwood tree.  Going back to Whitetree where Jon can feel the power of the place and I wonder if it is the tree that protects itself with warding.  The Black Gate seems to be connected to the weirwood breaking through the stone, reaching for the moon.  A ghost face that is entered through a gaping mouth; another reminder of Whitetree with a gaping mouth of another kind.  The first thing that Melisandre does when Stannis takes Storm's End is burn the weirwood.  I'm not sure if the text indicates that she is able to enter afterwards.

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It wasn't my impression that Melisandre couldn't enter Storm's End, she could, but her shadow baby couldn't, the wards were in the walls and the wards were to guard against shadow magic.  The presence of the Weirwood seemed immaterial to that.  As for the destruction of the weirwood, I think she destroyed it for the same reasons that she burned the statues of the Seven from the Sept in Dragonstone, the Weirwood represented a competing religion to her Lord of Light.

My guess is Coldhands may not be able to pass the Wall because he is likewise animated by shadow magic.

[LynnS]

50 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It wasn't my impression that Melisandre couldn't enter Storm's End, she could, but her shadow baby couldn't, the wards were in the walls and the wards were to guard against shadow magic.  The presence of the Weirwood seemed immaterial to that.  As for the destruction of the weirwood, I think she destroyed it for the same reasons that she burned the statues of the Seven from the Sept in Dragonstone, the Weirwood represented a competing religion to her Lord of Light.

My guess is Coldhands may not be able to pass the Wall because he is likewise animated by shadow magic.

It's actually Melisandre's words to Jon that he rejects the power available to him that makes me wonder about the power that resides in particular weirwoods and Jon's ability to sense it.  But yes, the warding could be specific to shadow magic.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

"You think so?" She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it."

She goes on to say that powerful shadows could be created implying that the magic of the wall increases the power to make shadows or increase the power of the shadows themselves.  So a thing to make shadows but also block shadows? Unless they're invited through the ward?

[Black Crow]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's actually Melisandre's words to Jon that he rejects the power available to him that makes me wonder about the power that resides in particular weirwoods and Jon's ability to sense it.  But yes, the warding could be specific to shadow magic.

I wouldn't qualify it by reference to shadows, I don't think that's necessary. I'd suspect it to be magick in general which is blocked. OK how the Three-eyed-crow does it at Winterfell I don't know, but I think that the obvious answer is that business of coming to Bran in dreams. He can do that, but can't do more, not while Bran is still chained by its stone walls.

[shizett]

I think warmness of WF is also an important factor, specially since it's name might have been awarded based on that. Fell in german means "fur" and WF has warm water running through its walls. Although I think after Starks left, the place died and is cold by ADWD.

Which makes me wonder what maester Luwin meant when he said WF was like a stone tree. IMO it implies a living quality about the place. Since Weirwoods also petrify if left alone for a long time, I wonder whether parts of WF is actually just petrified wws.

Also some of the Kings of Winter Statues in the lower levels might be like the COTF's that Bran met in BR's cave (I feel like this has been discussed here before). They seemed dead until light was shone on them. It might be that the reason for prohibition of passage to lower levels is the somewhat living Kings of Winter, a custom that was abandoned or replaced by normal stone statues in later generations.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, shizett said:

Also some of the Kings of Winter Statues in the lower levels might be like the COTF's that Bran met in BR's cave (I feel like this has been discussed here before). They seemed dead until light was shone on them. It might be that the reason for prohibition of passage to lower levels is the somewhat living Kings of Winter, a custom that was abandoned or replaced by normal stone statues in later generations

I'm inclined to think that the WF heart tree is reserved for Starks.  Although, I wonder what happens to those like Bloodraven who are more dead than alive; a talking corpse sustained only by the tree.  At some point the bones must just crumble and end up in a pile the way Bran sees them in BR's cave.  With only the skull remaining to be interred in a niche.   Which call to mind the conversation in the prologue of GoT that the dead tell no tales.  Waymar contradicts that statement by saying a lot can learned from the dead.  Mormont also wishes he could talk to the dead:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Jon Snow remembered the wight rising, its eyes shining blue in the pale dead face. He knew why, he was certain.

"Would that bones could talk," the Old Bear grumbled. "This fellow could tell us much. How he died. Who burned him, and why. Where the wildlings have gone." He sighed. "The children of the forest could speak to the dead, it's said. But I can't." He tossed the skull back into the mouth of the tree, where it landed with a puff of fine ash. "Go through all these houses. Giant, get to the top of this tree, have a look. I'll have the hounds brought up too. Perchance this time the trail will be fresher." His tone did not suggest that he held out much hope of the last.

Two men went through each house, to make certain nothing was missed. Jon was paired with dour Eddison Tollett, a squire grey of hair and thin as a pike, whom the other brothers called Dolorous Edd. "Bad enough when the dead come walking," he said to Jon as they crossed the village, "now the Old Bear wants them talking as well? No good will come of that, I'll warrant. And who's to say the bones wouldn't lie? Why should death make a man truthful, or even clever? The dead are likely dull fellows, full of tedious complaints—the ground's too cold, my gravestone should be larger, why does he get more worms than I do . . ."

  What is Bloodraven at this point but a pile of bones and I wonder what lies he's telling.

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm inclined to think that the WF heart tree is reserved for Starks.  Although, I wonder what happens to those like Bloodraven who are more dead than alive; a talking corpse sustained only by the tree.  At some point the bones must just crumble and end up in a pile the way Bran sees them in BR's cave.  With only the skull remaining to be interred in a niche.   Which call to mind the conversation in the prologue of GoT that the dead tell no tales.  Waymar contradicts that statement by saying a lot can learned from the dead.  Mormont also wishes he could talk to the dead:

  What is Bloodraven at this point but a pile of bones and I wonder what lies he's telling.

That rather comes back to what I've said before about wights. When Old Nan speaks of the Others hating all life, I think that actually applies to the wights. They hate the living because they are the dead, [The Wild Hunt may have a different agenda] and when it comes to their speaking with the living, why should they speak true?

Now as to Winterfell, we have the business of the swords - cold iron - keeping the dead in their tombs, which appears to be unique to Winterfell and again harks to the business of the original ringwork being warded and the question then is whether its warded as a defence or a prison, and why there must always be a [living] Stark in Winterfell

[LynnS]

Happy Yuletide Black Crow!

 

[Black Crow]

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Happy Yuletide Black Crow!

 

Har and happy Christmas to all 

[Black Crow]

Hurra!  the warding on the site has been broken.

So far as we know, no children were sacrificed to the cold gods.

[LynnS]

I don't know... protecting something within the walls of Winterfell, keeping something out; a prison with a Stark as warden.  There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  Bran identifies as the Stark in Winterfell as opposed to the Lord of Winterfell.  Certainly being crippled serves to keep him in place as much as the wights at the entrance to BR's cave.  There are a number of references in the text to the safety of Winterfell.

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XI

 

Tyrion only wished he could as easily make city walls twice as tall and three times as thick. Though perhaps it did not matter. Massive walls and tall towers had not saved Storm's End, nor Harrenhal, nor even Winterfell.

He remembered Winterfell as he had last seen it. Not as grotesquely huge as Harrenhal, nor as solid and impregnable to look at as Storm's End, yet there had been a great strength in those stones, a sense that within those walls a man might feel safe. The news of the castle's fall had come as a wrenching shock. "The gods give with one hand and take with the other," he muttered under his breath when Varys told him. They had given the Starks Harrenhal and taken Winterfell, a dismal exchange.

Tyrion on bringing captives to Wiinterfell:

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IV

 

Catelyn Stark wasted no time. "We must ride at once. We'll want fresh mounts, and provisions for the road. You men, know that you have the eternal gratitude of House Stark. If any of you choose to help us guard our captives and get them safe to Winterfell, I promise you shall be well rewarded." That was all it took; the fools came rushing forward. Tyrion studied their faces; they would indeed be well rewarded, he vowed to himself, but perhaps not quite as they imagined.

In the subtext, Tyrion gives voice to the idea that Winterfell's gifts are not what they seem.  As a place of safety or refuge; it becomes a prison for Bran who dreams that he is not safe in Winterfell. Indeed, he is not safe until he is beyond the Wall and dead to the world.  He enters another prison in BR's cave, both warded and guarded perhaps not unlike Winterfell itself.  A place where the gifts are also not what they seem.  While Eddard dreams of the frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"

"She was a Stark of Winterfell," Ned said quietly. "This is her place."

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

 

"Do you recall your history, Bran?" the maester said as they walked. "Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can."

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

 

 

All  is not true about the story Bran was told.  His grandfather wasn't beheaded and the reasons for burying Lyanna and Uncle Brandon are similarly suspect.  

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

 

Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King's Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her?

 

Something 'dark and dishonorable' seems to be the legacy of the Starks and the Lords of Winterfell buried in the tombs.  What was their crime?

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

56 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know... protecting something within the walls of Winterfell, keeping something out; a prison with a Stark as warden.  There must always be a Stark in Winterfell...

The thought drifted across while I was reading this post, or rather a double thought. Old Nan mumbled about the Wall standing so long as the Watch stayed true doesn't sound too far removed from there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Is it, in both cases, a curse?

The Watch we know today is a penal colony, recruited from outcasts and criminals, but has it not always been so in reality with the latter replacing not bright cheeked volunteers but prisoners taken in battle. Is there some kind of overarching theme here of those compelled to stand on the Wall, those whose duty is to hold Winterfell and even those cursed to give up their sons to those same cold gods? 

[Melifeather]

It is annoying that the characters always repeat, "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" without following up with the reason "why". It's always repeated with great insistence and urgency that it seems like they all know why, except for Bran and Rickon. If they knew they would have mentioned something before leaving, unless this is the definition of why Bran is the "chained" wolf? Was he chained to Winterfell because he was supposed to stay there after the rest of his family left? The chains were broken with a series of events. First Jojen and Meera showed up, then Theon came and took the castle, then killed the miller's boys to take Bran and Rickon's places. Technically Bran is still chained until someone helps him leave Bloodraven's cave.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

It is annoying that the characters always repeat, "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" without following up with the reason "why". It's always repeated with great insistence and urgency that it seems like they all know why, except for Bran and Rickon.

I don't think that they do, as I've said before I have the impression its another Musgrave Ritual. Everybody knows the words but not why they are spoken.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎21‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:11 PM, Black Crow said:

So why did he surround this particular site with those ditches and banks in the first place?

I think that the short answer has to be that rather than pitching upon it as a good site for a castle, he was deliberately enclosing something significant which is even now impacting on the story.

 

Hi Black Crow. 

I totally agree that Winterfell was built atop the hill to enclose/protect something, in fact I think we can see this same technique with a large amount of the First Men castles up and down Westeros.  I have recently released an essay on this very subject and speculated that these castles were strategically built for a specific purpose, that being to 'fortify their magic caves/cave system' that lie below.  

Why would they do that?  The simple answer seems to be because they were greenseers.  We see two greenseers in the series,[BR and Bran] both sitting their weirwood thrones, but also 'both seeming to grow in power within the darkness of their cave' [The darkness will be your friend]  We also get a parallel greenseer in Beric doing the same thing 'sitting a ww throne in a dark cave'.  And interestingly, both of these sites are openly associated with magic, and the only two named as 'hollow hills' in the series.  So in conclusion it looks like greenseers thrive in the darkness of the caves beneath the hollow hills where weirwood roots can twist their way into the shape of a throne. 

Winterfell it seems is built on top of a hollow hill as well, but George has only given us the clues rather than name it as such.  As has been mentioned, the crypts are most likely a cavern that has been fashioned into the Stark burial chamber at some point. [Just as Storm's End has fashioned its landing below from a large cave/cavern]  And the forgotten lower levels are surely a huge cave system with limitless possibilities, one of which is that there may be a huge cavern down there with a tangle of weirwood roots that a greenseer would see as the ideal place to harness his magic and surf the weirnet ala Bloodraven and more poignantly, Bran. 

We get a clue in the World book that Brandon the Builder may have been a greenseer.....

Quote

Childer’s Winter Kings, or the legends and lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall.  He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through the leaves, or the rain upon the water.  The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here.

@ravenous reader pointed out to me that the tale is not worth repeating because we’re already reading it.  Learning to comprehend the children’s speech is exactly what our greenseer, Bran is doing [the wind and leaves in particular]  It seems his Age of Heroes namesake went through the same process, evidence that he was perhaps learning the finer arts of greenseeing too.  If this is the case then it makes perfect sense that Brandon would want to protect his magic hollow hill/cave/home and therefore build the first walls of Winterfell.  In support of it being the caves as well as the weirwood trees that are important, this same technique has been used at all seventeen examples I give throughout my essay [castles built atop hollow hills/caverns with access to the lower levels] but Winterfell is surely the most important moving forward.  

So basically I think it's the hill/cave system as well as the godswood/weirwoods that is so important to protect.  Cool thread again, as usual. 

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy, pray do post again 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:38 AM, Black Crow said:

Oh, I'd say that we're looking at the site in its totality. Apart from those stairs to hell and whatever they really lead to, there is the black pool. There are or were weirwoods aplenty but this is virtually the only instance Martin tells us of where there is a pool, yet the Celts were very much into worshipping their gods through such sacred pools and wells. Indeed, while it takes a different form in that its down at the bottom of that other stairway to hell, the only other instance which I can recall of a pool being mentioned is at the Nightfort.

There is also a pool beneath Horn Hill........

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When he was small his lord father had tried to teach him how to swim by throwing him into the pond beneath Horn Hill.  The water had gotten in his nose and in his mouth and in his lungs, and he coughed and wheezed for hours after Ser Hyle pulled him out.

Sons of Garth the Green both, Herndon of the Horn and his twin brother Harlon the Hunter built Horn Hill.  As the name suggests it is built atop a hill, and this evidence of a pond beneath the castle would insinuate that they are in another cave/cavern.  So I think Horn Hill was another castle built atop a hollow hill with access to the lower levels.  Harlon and Hern are also good examples of possible First Men greenseers. [Horned lords - Garth the Green etc]    

[Wizz-The-Smith]

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Welcome to Heresy, pray do post again 

Haha, thanks.    This is a subject that interests me very much, so no worries there.