Heresy 193 Winterfell

[Melifeather]

If there is another weirwood throne under the Winterfell crypts, or at least access to a throne under the heart tree, why wouldn't Bran be ensconced there? Unless the plan is to train him and then send him back to Winterfell?

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Sons of Garth the Green both, Herndon of the Horn and his twin brother Harlon the Hunter built Horn Hill.  As the name suggests it is built atop a hill, and this evidence of a pond beneath the castle would insinuate that they are in another cave/cavern.  So I think Horn Hill was another castle built atop a hollow hill with access to the lower levels.  Harlon and Hern are also good examples of possible First Men greenseers. [Horned lords - Garth the Green etc]    

And a reference to Herne the Hunter so blatant that GRRM ought to be ashamed of himself 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If there is another weirwood throne under the Winterfell crypts, or at least access to a throne under the heart tree, why wouldn't Bran be ensconced there? Unless the plan is to train him and then send him back to Winterfell?

Hi Feather Crystal. 

Fair point.  Of course I can only speculate that there may be tangle of roots/weirwood throne beneath Winterfell, but it seems a definite possibility.  Where we have the two weirwood thrones, they are a result of weirwoods growing above caves/caverns on top of hollow hills, therefore where one finds the three together in tandem [roots - cave - hollow hill] as we do at Winterfell, it seems reasonable to speculate that the roots may have formed in a similar formation beneath the hollow hill that is Winterfell.  And yes, I think it's a possibility that the plan is to train him and send him back to Winterfell, but again we can only speculate on that. [Would be pretty cool though]  The focus of my essay was more on the First Men who built their castles above these caves/caverns and suggesting that they were greenseers looking to harness the magic of the caves etc...  So having a weirwood throne to surf the weirnet seemed like part of the furniture to me.    

[Wizz-The-Smith]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And a reference to Herne the Hunter so blatant that GRRM ought to be ashamed of himself 

Ha!  Exactly, I actually live quite close to where Herne the Hunter's legendry ghost is said to appear on occasions, Windsor.  Visiting Herne's Oak is one of the things I must do.   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎22‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:20 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Heresy has also brought up discussions of aes sidhe, a magical supernatural race in Irish and Scottish mythology comparable with fairies or elves, which are said to live underground in mounds in an invisible world that coexists with humans. The Children are also said to live underground, and I think it's apparent that GRRM has not only drawn inspiration from the sidhe and split it into his Children and white walkers, I think we're meant to draw a connection between the two.

Nice!  I totally agree the Sidhe have been a huge influence on George, and that there are connections to be made between the Children and the White Walkers. [Grrm has said the Others are like 'the Sidhe made of ice' for a start]  Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I touch on this in my thread as well, in fact I think the potential First Men greenseers show a lot of the traits that the Tuatha de Dannan or Sidhe have as well.  It seems they too were harnessing this underground magic much like the Children. [They taught them after all]  Here is a description of the aes sidhe......
 

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After the Milesians defeated the Dananns, the Dananns either retreated to Tir na n-Og ("Land of Youth") or they continued to live on the land with the Milesians, but their homes (subterranean palaces) were hidden by magic from the eyes of mortals. Their homes were commonly called Sidhe (síd or sídh) or the Otherworld. Another name for the Tuatha Dé Danann was the áes sídhe or the "People of the Sídhe".

In the Otherworld, the Danann/Sidhe remained young and seemingly immortal. Immortal in the sense, they can live a very long life and remain young, but they can be killed and destroyed, just like any mortal.

There were frequent visits of the Dananns with the mortals. Sometimes they aided mortals, while other times they seek their destruction. Sometimes they sought marriage with mortals. Most of the times, the Dananns would come to the surface and meet their lovers, other times the mortals were allowed to live with them.

It should be noted that the fairies in Celtic myths (especially Irish, Welsh and Arthurian myths) had nothing to do with the tiny pixies with wings that are found in folklore and children's fairy tales, like Tinklebell in Peter Pan or the Fairy Godmother in Cinderella. The fairies found here were human with supernatural power. Modern interpretations of fairies tend to prettify them, particularly during the Victorian period of 19th century Britain.

 

So some of the Dannan/Sidhe lived in subterranean palaces [or below Sidhe/burial mounds] were able to live very long lives seemingly immortal, yet could still be killed, and were essentially humans with supernatural powers.  That sounds very much like our potential First Men greenseers as well as the Children.  Brandon the Builder, the Godsgrief, Lann the Clever, Hern and Harlon, the Grey King etc...all lived these extended fantastical lives displaying supernatural powers while having access to caves/caverns beneath their carefully placed castles. [All built on hills/above caves]  Basically, I think we may be able to link the First Men greenseers to the Children/Others/Sidhe link as well, but it's hard to make sense of it all.       

I'm actually researching the Sidhe a little further at the moment, there are a lot of similarities but it's all still a bit hazy.     

[Wizz-The-Smith]

For anyone interested, here is a link to said essay.  It may clear up some of my waffle. 

 

[Phillip Frye]

On 12/23/2016 at 1:20 PM, shizett said:

Which makes me wonder what maester Luwin meant when he said WF was like a stone tree. IMO it implies a living quality about the place. Since Weirwoods also petrify if left alone for a long time, I wonder whether parts of WF is actually just petrified wws.

Winterfell as a stone tree.  Well, it's not like there used to be another house in the North that is strongly identified with a stone tree.  I wonder exactly how the Starks came into possession of Winterfell?

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Phillip Frye said:

Winterfell as a stone tree.  Well, it's not like there used to be another house in the North that is strongly identified with a stone tree.  I wonder exactly how the Starks came into possession of Winterfell?

A giant armored in stone?

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If there is another weirwood throne under the Winterfell crypts, or at least access to a throne under the heart tree, why wouldn't Bran be ensconced there? Unless the plan is to train him and then send him back to Winterfell?

Or he's been stolen away... 

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If there is another weirwood throne under the Winterfell crypts, or at least access to a throne under the heart tree, why wouldn't Bran be ensconced there? Unless the plan is to train him and then send him back to Winterfell?

He's not safe at Winterfell.  Theon, then Ramsey...  His dream of the twisted grotesques stalking him on the First Keep.  He can always inhabit the heart tree from somewhere else; but the tree itself is vulnerable should someone cut it down or burn it.  Safe for who's purposes though?  He has been stolen away; a prisoner safely ensconsed in the cave of the greenseer.. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Or he's been stolen away... 

It's a valid argument, because if the goal is to place him in an as yet un-re-discovered weirwood throne under Winterfell, couldn't Bloodraven have instructed Jojen to help him find it by going down through the crypts? Couldn't he have taught him through the weirwood root system? Couldn't Leaf or some other Children have traveled to Winterfell to Bran?

[Brad Stark]

I think Bran had to leave Winterfell because he is going to end up on the other side of the conflict.  Weirwoods, greenseers, the Others, and the Wall are all tools used first by the Children and later by men.  I think we are going to read about factions of children fighting each other.  Jon inherits Winterfell and the Stark legacy, Bran becomes the leader of the other side.

[Matthew.]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If there is another weirwood throne under the Winterfell crypts, or at least access to a throne under the heart tree, why wouldn't Bran be ensconced there? Unless the plan is to train him and then send him back to Winterfell?

Actually, I think that might be the plan--IMO, Bran's ultimate destination is either the roots of the Winterfell heart tree, or the Isle of Faces.

I believe there are at least two reasons it may have been necessary that he was brought north before he's 'planted' in his permanent home. For one thing, there's the business with the weirwood paste; personally, I am a believer in the Jojen paste theory, and if you browse around there's a 2013 interview with GRRM where he refers to the process Bran is undergoing as "the green ceremony," which suggests to me that the significance of that moment may be underestimated.

For another, it may be that the full picture of who or what the 3EC is hasn't been revealed--if the 3EC is a distinct entity, rather than just being BR's dream form or w/e, then it may be that part of Bran's purpose is to 'carry' the 3EC through the Wall and into Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Nice!  I totally agree the Sidhe have been a huge influence on George, and that there are connections to be made between the Children and the White Walkers. [Grrm has said the Others are like 'the Sidhe made of ice' for a start]  Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I touch on this in my thread as well, in fact I think the potential First Men greenseers show a lot of the traits that the Tuatha de Dannan or Sidhe have as well.  It seems they too were harnessing this underground magic much like the Children. [They taught them after all]  Here is a description of the aes sidhe......
 

So some of the Dannan/Sidhe lived in subterranean palaces [or below Sidhe/burial mounds] were able to live very long lives seemingly immortal, yet could still be killed, and were essentially humans with supernatural powers.  That sounds very much like our potential First Men greenseers as well as the Children.  Brandon the Builder, the Godsgrief, Lann the Clever, Hern and Harlon, the Grey King etc...all lived these extended fantastical lives displaying supernatural powers while having access to caves/caverns beneath their carefully placed castles. [All built on hills/above caves]  Basically, I think we may be able to link the First Men greenseers to the Children/Others/Sidhe link as well, but it's hard to make sense of it all.       

I'm actually researching the Sidhe a little further at the moment, there are a lot of similarities but it's all still a bit hazy.     

The Sidhe connections or parallels are something which have exercised us a lot on Heresy and not just since GRRM made that reference to the Others, What may be significant in understanding the mysteries of Winterfell and some other stuff besides is in asking ourselves just how far did the First Men go in taking up the worship of the old gods. We are presented with an impression of the Children of the Forest as peaceful tree-huggers until men came along, but in reality they were hunters; predators. We've drawn comparisons before between the white shadows and the Wild Hunt, and Old Nan's stories of their hunting maidens through the woods are very explicitly mirrored by the behaviour of one Ramsay Snow/Bolton. Then, as you laid out earlier there's the business of the Tarly huntsmen and when it comes to the Storm Lords not only do we have the lady herself in the form of House Morrigen, but the Baratheon stag is very much a huntsman's sigil, harking to Herne himself.

[Frey family reunion]

As to the pool beneath Horn's Hill, I wonder if that may be a reference to the origin story of Merlin, where Merlin was slated to be a sacrifice by King Vortigern to try and solve the mystery as to why his tower kept collapsing.  Merlin suggested that they dig under the tower where a lake was revealed.  When they drained the lake, they found two dragons engaged in conflict, one white and one red.  These dragons having been trapped under the lake by first being turned into pigs.  And of course Sam is Ser Piggy...

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

For another, it may be that the full picture of who or what the 3EC is hasn't been revealed--if the 3EC is a distinct entity, rather than just being BR's dream form or w/e, then it may be that part of Bran's purpose is to 'carry' the 3EC through the Wall and into Winterfell.

I really like this idea!  I think there is a remote possibility that the 3EC is actually Jon Snow.  Bran might have to 'carry him' into Winterfell for some reason.  If there is an alternate Black Gate somewhere in the crypts; it may be that only The Crow can open it. 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Actually, I think that might be the plan--IMO, Bran's ultimate destination is either the roots of the Winterfell heart tree, or the Isle of Faces.

I believe there are at least two reasons it may have been necessary that he was brought north before he's 'planted' in his permanent home. For one thing, there's the business with the weirwood paste; personally, I am a believer in the Jojen paste theory, and if you browse around there's a 2013 interview with GRRM where he refers to the process Bran is undergoing as "the green ceremony," which suggests to me that the significance of that moment may be underestimated.

For another, it may be that the full picture of who or what the 3EC is hasn't been revealed--if the 3EC is a distinct entity, rather than just being BR's dream form or w/e, then it may be that part of Bran's purpose is to 'carry' the 3EC through the Wall and into Winterfell.

My current understanding of the 3EC is that all greenseers and skinchangers have a third eye. Greenseers obviously know they have one and learn to use it, while some people with the ability to skinchange don't know they have a third eye, like Jon Snow for instance. Bran tried to teach him how to open it at will and he saw through Ghost's eyes looking down at a wildling camp.  So the 3EC is misleading, because Bloodraven certainly is "a" 3EC because:

1) he was a man of the Nights Watch thus "a crow"

2) his reputation as having a thousand eyes and one due to his ability to see through the eyes of ravens and crows

3) his symbolic relationship to Odin with his huggin and muggin thought and memory collectors

4) his ability to come to Bran, Jojen, and likely anybody, in dreams, which to me is the essential definition and ability of exercising the third eye. 

If Bran were to skinchange a crow, he too could appear to someone in a dream as a three eyed crow. It just so happened that he appeared to Jon as a three eyed weirwood sapling in Jon's dream when he (Jon) dreamt he was Ghost.

That being said, I do like the idea of the necessity of "bringing" the 3EC through the Wall and into Winterfell. It's like the stickler of needing to be invited. If that is true then I think we could logically conclude that the Children themselves can no longer pass the Wall, no matter what Leaf implies. She said she traveled the world for 200 years, but she didn't say" when".

[Voice]

On December 21, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Black Crow said:

So why did he surround this particular site with those ditches and banks in the first place?

 

I think that the short answer has to be that rather than pitching upon it as a good site for a castle, he was deliberately enclosing something significant which is even now impacting on the story.

 

Most obviously there are two very striking features; first that unusually large godswood centring on the weirwood and the pools, some hot, some cold. And secondly the crypts,  or perhaps more accurately the caves below Winterfell which have been re-shaped into crypts; caves which are accessed by a deep spiral stair, a “stair to Hell” paraphrasing Old Nan, just like the entrance to the Black Gate up on the Wall.

 

 

Yup, twas ever for the Godswood... 

It was this very heart tree and cotf-cave which Brandon attempted to reach before he broke a sword and required rescue. This was before he ever began Building, though I believe it gave him cause to do so. In that darkness, he was the Last Hero... so named only because he was the last remaining of a group that once (conspicuously) numbered thirteen.

 

An enjoyable read @Black Crow.  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The Sidhe connections or parallels are something which have exercised us a lot on Heresy and not just since GRRM made that reference to the Others, What may be significant in understanding the mysteries of Winterfell and some other stuff besides is in asking ourselves just how far did the First Men go in taking up the worship of the old gods. We are presented with an impression of the Children of the Forest as peaceful tree-huggers until men came along, but in reality they were hunters; predators. We've drawn comparisons before between the white shadows and the Wild Hunt, and Old Nan's stories of their hunting maidens through the woods are very explicitly mirrored by the behaviour of one Ramsay Snow/Bolton. Then, as you laid out earlier there's the business of the Tarly huntsmen and when it comes to the Storm Lords not only do we have the lady herself in the form of House Morrigen, but the Baratheon stag is very much a huntsman's sigil, harking to Herne himself.

Hey Black Crow. 

I've just had a search for Sidhe/Heresy chat, and wow, the search pulled up Heresy 11 from 2012 with various others up to Heresy 100+.  So rather than check that amount of threads I thought I'd put together some of the potential Sidhe connections/parallels from my research. 

Having found a load of hollow hills hidden beneath castles up and down Westeros, I searched the mythology of the hollow hills and found they link directly to the Sidhe.  The mounds as well as the people.......The following/full passage can be found on the ''Encyclopedia of Earth Myths. An insiders A - Z guide to mythic people'' website......  

Quote

 

HOLLOW HILLS. Experiential doorways into the Earth's visionary geography and its 100+ different features, light temples, and residences of the gods. 

The terms Hollow Hills or sidhe are clues to the Earth's vast visionary geography and the openings into this realm [Otherworld] through physical landscape features such as hills, caves, mounds, rockfaces, or human-made structures.

The Earth's visionary geography consists of at least 95 different types of portals, doorways, or openings into the planet's subtle landscape. These different types have multiple copies, so that, for example, a Hollow Hill, sidhe, or landscape portal to the Rich Fisher King of Celtic lore is through any of 144 Grail Castles accessed through sacred or holy sites around the Earth. In all, there are many thousands of gateways into the Otherworld each accessed through a physical site.

Thus Hollow Hill or sidhe can refer accurately to any of these 95 features.

 

So the hollow hills/Sidhe are kind of magic portals/seams into the other realm/underworld.  And to gain access via the hills, caves, mounds, rockfaces, or human-made structures sounds very much the castles we've already mentioned, Winterfell, Storm's End, Horn Hill etc... All built on hills, rockfaces and with access to caves below.  The 'People of the Sidhe', or the Tuatha de Dannan are also linked to the hollow hills......

Quote

Once the Tuatha de Danann, Ireland's original gods, lived above ground and ruled Ireland bnevolently for 3,000 years, legend says; then they retreated into the Hollow Hills, known as the sidhe (pronounced shay) and reduced their influence on human affairs. Each of the major Tuatha got their own sidhe: Midir the Proud lived at Bri Leith; the Dagda (the Tuatha chief) or his son Aengus Og at Bruigh na Boinne; Una lived at Knockshegowna; Lir's palace was called SidheFionnachaidh; Ogma's was Sidhe Airceltrai; Lugh's was Sidhe Rodrubai.  

This means we can name some sites/castles that are connected to the Sidhe/Tuatha influence through the 'hollow hill' link.  Those castles/sites include.....

Bloodraven's cave  --  High Heart  --  Winterfell  --  Storm's End  --  Highgarden  --  Casterly Rock  --  The Grey King's Hall  --  The Hightower  --  Horn Hill  --  The New Castle (Built above what was the Wolf's Den)  --  Standfast  --  Deepwood Motte  --  The Nighfort (Also all the castles at the Wall have underground access with a huge cave system running below)  --  Griffin's Roost  --  The Eyrie  --  The Whispers  --  Sea-Dragon Point  --  Oldstones  --  The House of Black and White.

I love the HoBaW being a hollow hill, that means we have two Stark's receiving their training in the magic of the hills/caves.  The hall of faces is where the magic seems to mainly happen, and is on the lower levels.  I think it's probably another cavern. 

Almost all these castles have those greenseeresque legends attached to them.  If some of them were greenseers [as I think they were] I picture them retreating from their fortified castles into the caves/caverns below to surf the weirnet in the darkness of the cave.  While also still being able to serve their people or go to war etc..  A supernatural human, garnering power from the cave beneath the hollow hill, and living abnormally long lives sounds like the description of some of the Sidhe/Tuatha de Dannan I posted up thread as well as the Westerosi legends.  That's where I link the First Men Greenseers with the Sidhe/Tuatha, I think the descriptions are so similar...

Something else rather obscure I noticed about the Sidhe.....

Quote

It is interesting to note that many of the Irish refer to the sidhe as simply "the gentry", on account of their tall, noble appearance and silvery sweet speech.

I think there is a play on the word ‘gentry’ going on here, it sounds very much like ‘Gendry’, who is of course tall and of noble appearance, looking so much like his father, King Robert.  The tall and noble gentry/Gendry synonymous with the hollow hills. 

Interestingly, as a recruit of the BWB, Gendry was actually knighted at High Heart and is now ‘Ser Gendry, knight of the hollow hill’.   He is literally one of the gentry now.  This seems like too much of a coincidence for it not to mean something, but what it means I have no clue.  I'm sure there is loads to be explored regards the hollow hills, and the Dannan/Sidhe link, but it's hard to pin down. 

Is there a synopsis of Heresy's Sidhe thoughts?  Although I don't mind working my way through a search if that's the case, these threads are always worth a read.  Hopefully this has added to any Heresy/Sidhe ideas.       

[Melifeather]

Very interesting post Wizz! I wonder if Gendry's symbolic connection to sidhe is a nod or foreshadowing? As for Heresy we do have a resource thread started and maintained by @wolfmaid7 although I think many of the links were broken with the upgrade of the forum.