Wizz-The-Smith Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: Very interesting post Wizz! I wonder if Gendry's symbolic connection to sidhe is a nod or foreshadowing? As for Heresy we do have a resource thread started and maintained by @wolfmaid7 although I think many of the links were broken with the upgrade of the forum. Hey thanks Feather Crystal. I'll check that out. I'm not sure on the Gendry link, it's another of those Sidhe clues where you can make a connection but at this moment it seems to lead nowhere. Nod, foreshadowing, I'm not sure. Very frustrating. Researching the Sidhe is no less frustrating, the tales vary and even the specialists disagree on certain things, It's hard to see the wood for those personified trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: I love the HoBaW being a hollow hill, that means we have two Stark's receiving their training in the magic of the hills/caves. The hall of faces is where the magic seems to mainly happen, and is on the lower levels. I think it's probably another cavern. I have the impression that Braavos sits atop a seamount which may or may not be an active volcano. The same with the Mother of Mountains in Vaes Dothrak and Dragonstone. The God's Eye looks like it could be a volcanic lake as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 8 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Hey thanks Feather Crystal. I'll check that out. I'm not sure on the Gendry link, it's another of those Sidhe clues where you can make a connection but at this moment it seems to lead nowhere. Nod, foreshadowing, I'm not sure. Very frustrating. Researching the Sidhe is no less frustrating, the tales vary and even the specialists disagree on certain things, It's hard to see the wood for those personified trees. We have spent a lot of time and energy here on Heresy looking at the influences and sources which GRRM has used here. Its a lot of fun. The Celtic stuff is way up there in importance, but as always we need to remember that whatever the ingredients going into the mix, it's GRRM's cake rather than say the Mabinogion with only the names changed to protect the guilty. Nevertheless these stories do provide us with clues, and in relation to Winterfell and its keepers, I do think we need to pay heed to the possibility that the Stark in Winterfell has been stolen. There is a great game being played and a constant theme throughout the story appears to be the stealing of pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 6 hours ago, Black Crow said: We have spent a lot of time and energy here on Heresy looking at the influences and sources which GRRM has used here. Its a lot of fun. The Celtic stuff is way up there in importance, but as always we need to remember that whatever the ingredients going into the mix, it's GRRM's cake rather than say the Mabinogion with only the names changed to protect the guilty. He makes generous use of the archetypes, but not always in an archetypal way! One thing one does get a feeling for, however, is GRRM's various predilections, his quirky personality and his often perverse tastes, e.g. in taking on Catholicism and dwelling with gusto on various dubious sexual and eating practices. Quote Nevertheless these stories do provide us with clues, and in relation to Winterfell and its keepers, I do think we need to pay heed to the possibility that the Stark in Winterfell has been stolen. I've come to believe that Bran, not Jon, is the blue flower growing out of the ice wall Dany sees in her vision. Considering GRRM's penchant for 'gender inversion', Bran is the latest fairest blue rose of Winter whisked away from Winterfell by some 'singers' (even if they were singing at a distance) who have 'married' him producing 'hybrid offspring' under a certain amount of duress. Bran was reluctant to be wed to the tree, if you recall. Yet, in his broken state he was basically at the mercy of those who had succeeded in luring him to the cave. The only problem I have with the idea of the 'purloined prince' is that Bran is not really gone from Winterfell, now that he can enter the heart tree whenever he so chooses. In fact, he's more present than he's ever been, since Winterfell can be thought of as one giant tree with its heart centered around the heart tree and closely related to the crypts, with the piped water in the walls of the castle and greenhouse as its extended warm-blooded circulatory system. When this 'tree' is skinchanged by the Stark greenseer, who does not really have to be physically present in order to take up his place on the greenseer throne, his presence permeates Winterfell. He's everywhere at once and more powerful than ever -- in fact I think Bran is responsible for orchestrating the elements, namely the snow storm emanating out of Winterfell which descends on the Boltons after the sacrilege committed by the fArya wedding and rape in eye- and ear-shot of the heart tree...This idea grew out of a trilogy of 'Stark/old gods weapons' @Wizz-The-Smith originally identified, namely 'wind, wood, and wolf,' to which I've added a fourth 'winter.' If his power has only been boosted instead of diminished, what would be the point of stealing him? Perhaps someone wants to harness Bran's talent for themselves for some nefarious purpose; is that what you're suggesting? 6 hours ago, Black Crow said: There is a great game being played and a constant theme throughout the story appears to be the stealing of pieces. It's interesting that the word GRRM uses for this dynamic is 'plucking' -- people pluck flowers and fruits, pies and mushrooms and moons, all manner of fowl (and foul), cyvasse pieces, especially dragons; pluck some pieces out of danger and remove others from the board; pluck strings of webs, harps and hearts... And 'plucking plucking...it rhymes with..!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 7 hours ago, Black Crow said: There is a great game being played and a constant theme throughout the story appears to be the stealing of pieces. I send to you a piece of prince...thus wrote Ramsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 40 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: If his power has only been boosted instead of diminished, what would be the point of stealing him? Perhaps someone wants to harness Bran's talent for themselves for some nefarious purpose; is that what you're suggesting? It's interesting that the word GRRM uses for this dynamic is 'plucking' -- people pluck flowers and fruits, pies and mushrooms and moons, all manner of fowl (and foul), cyvasse pieces, especially dragons; pluck some pieces out of danger and remove others from the board; pluck strings of webs, harps and hearts... And yet, arguably, he has been stolen, and via the crypts too. The Bael story may be of direct relevance here in that while the Lord Stark's daughter was returned, she brought with her a child. Now this plays out far more directly with Lyanna Stark, whose son Jon may one day be the Lord Stark rather than the Targaryen prince of fan-fiction, but it may still play out with Bran. Whatever may be going on north of the Wall the Stark has been stolen from Winterfell and the Stark who returns will be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: I send to you a piece of prince...thus wrote Ramsay. Ah, I fear that bits and pieces don't count. It is whole pieces which will decide the game, and continuing my response to Ravenous, its worth remembering that in certain games - chess and chequers to name but too - successfully spiriting a piece to the far end of the board changes and enhances its powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 59 minutes ago, Black Crow said: successfully spiriting a piece to the far end of the board changes and enhances its powers. Yes, it was brought to my attention that in chess (with which GRRM is more than au fait) when a pawn crosses a board it can become a queen. This is basically Bael-ish's objective having 'plucked' Sansa for his own: Quote A Feast for Crows - Alayne II "Yes, Father." She could feel herself blushing. He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear." "Three queens?" She did not understand. Nor did Petyr choose to explain. Instead, he smiled and said, "I have brought my sweet girl back a gift." Having more than two queens on the board at the same time (besides the 'white' and the 'black' starting the game) shouldn't be normal, but in chess it's possible. P.S. BC you can call me RR ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Yes, it was brought to my attention that in chess (with which GRRM is more than au fait) when a pawn crosses a board it can become a queen. This is basically Bael-ish's objective having 'plucked' Sansa for his own: Having more than two queens (besides the 'white' and the 'black' starting the game) shouldn't be normal, but in chess it's possible. Exactly so, which is why there may be some significance to plucking Bran Stark from Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 35 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Exactly so, which is why there may be some significance to plucking Bran Stark from Winterfell. If Bran is a chess piece, then he represents a rook or pawn-cum-rook... I worked it out together with some inspiration from @Pain killer Jane who said: On 11/7/2016 at 6:06 PM, Pain killer Jane said: I also need to mention that in the article I sent you @ravenous reader, in Scotland scarecrows are called bodach-rocais or 'old man of the rooks' and a rook is a tower and we have several towers known to be rookeries with a lot of crows. And given, that I saw that GRRM was a step below a chess master, this is not a coincidence. So in light of this, I think Torrhen, Tormund Giantsbane or his other alias Tormund Thunderfist might be the link between the towers on fire symbolism and scarecrows on fire and sacred caves and hollow hills and Calvary Hill. By the way, I think it might be significant that the word rook is derived from the Persian word meaning chariot. This is a link to the history of scarecrows to which she refers. To which I replied: On 11/8/2016 at 4:16 PM, ravenous reader said: That's fascinating. I wish I knew more about chess, since there are probably multiple hidden chess motifs and moves we might identify. For example, it's been drawn to my attention that if a pawn crosses the board it can become a queen (essentially adding an extra queen to a game which previously only had two), which if you think about it is what Baelish intends doing with Sansa his prime piece in the game! Regarding 'rooks' and 'rookeries', great catch connecting (scare)crows to chess! Like 'rooks' in chess, the crow or scarecrow figures also come in 'black' and 'white,' e.g. the black vs. white ravens, or the black Night's Watch brothers facing off against the white (br)Others on the other side of the board ...'under the sea the crows are white as snow...' Maybe Bran is a bit of a chess grand master himself considering he's a greenseer for whom a powerful chess piece like the rook would be emblematic, considering his association with crows and broken towers struck by lightning and noting how he 'perches' like a raven, crow or scarecrow on the 'bridge connecting the second floor of the rookery with the fourth floor of the belltower...' That sounds like code to me for something of uncertain significance, perhaps even a checkmating chess move! Any ideas? I've read the rook is often instrumental in bringing about 'checkmate' in the chess endgame, which is precisely what we've been anticipating regarding Bran and his role in the impending Long Night/War for the Dawn. The 'bell tower' might symbolise the embattled King -- bells are often rung for the death of kings, executions, rebellions, a king under siege in the case of the Battle of the Bells, the transfer of power, etc. -- so 'sending a rook to the belltower' might be a checkmate move? Although the rook begins the game relatively hemmed in in its options, as the game progresses it acquires greater freedom of movement and becomes ever more deadly, perhaps reflecting Bran's progress from cripple to major player! In line with your scarecrow suggestion, rooks in chess have also been depicted as 'warders,' 'watchers' or 'beserkers' (wolfskin-wearing warriors associated with Odin) depending on the chess set, and fittingly in heraldic depictions the crenellated battlements may morph into horns, evoking @LmL's 'horned greenseers' and more specifically the outward-curving horned headdress of a court jester or fool such as Patchface, bringing us back to the scarecrow trilogy 'clever bird clever man clever fool'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 2 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Maybe Bran is a bit of a chess grand master himself considering he's a greenseer for whom a powerful chess piece like the rook would be emblematic, considering his association with crows and broken towers struck by lightning and noting how he 'perches' like a raven, crow or scarecrow on the 'bridge connecting the second floor of the rookery with the fourth floor of the belltower...' That sounds like code to me for something of uncertain significance, perhaps even a checkmating chess move! Any ideas? I've read the rook is often instrumental in bringing about 'checkmate' in the chess endgame, which is precisely what we've been anticipating regarding Bran and his role in the impending Long Night/War for the Dawn. The 'bell tower' might symbolise the embattled King -- bells are often rung for the death of kings, executions, rebellions, a king under siege in the case of the Battle of the Bells, the transfer of power, etc. -- so 'sending a rook to the belltower' might be a checkmate move? Although the rook begins the game relatively hemmed in in its options, as the game progresses it acquires greater freedom of movement and becomes ever more deadly, perhaps reflecting Bran's progress from cripple to major player! There is a move in chess called castling (or castle). It's generally played in a defensive move by sliding the King over two spaces towards the rook, and then the rook is brought over to the next space on the other side of the King. There are certain conditions that must exist before you can castle (both pieces have not yet moved in the game and there are open spaces between them). BTW @ravenous reader I've very much enjoyed your contributions to the Winterfell topic. Keep them coming!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 I don't know about the fine detail, but I believe it has been suggested in the past that Cyvasse, in concept at least, is intended to be likened to chess, and that both the game of thrones and the overarching game between Ice and Fire may be likened to a game of Cyvasse/Chess. I think therefore that a thorough knowledge of chess and in particular the playing of chess may be just as useful in its way as a study of the Mabinogion and some of the other sources we've identified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 24 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said: There is a move in chess called castling (or castle). It's generally played in a defensive move by sliding the King over two spaces towards the rook, and then the rook is brought over to the next space on the other side of the King. There are certain conditions that must exist before you can castle (both pieces have not yet moved in the game and there are open spaces between them). BTW @ravenous reader I've very much enjoyed your contributions to the Winterfell topic. Keep them coming!!! Thanks! I wish I knew more about chess, surely one of GRRM's prime passions and the way he'd organise many of his thoughts and plots structurally. What is the aim or advantage of this 'castling' move then? In which situations would it be employed? How would it correlate with this idea of a shortcut between the rookery (second floor) and the belltower (fourth floor); and how do you imagine it applying to Bran/Jon in particular? Do those numbers (2nd and 4th) have some meaning in chess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Thanks! I wish I knew more about chess, surely one of GRRM's prime passions and the way he'd organise many of his thoughts and plots structurally. What is the aim or advantage of this 'castling' move then? In which situations would it be employed? How would it correlate with this idea of a shortcut between the rookery (second floor) and the belltower (fourth floor); and how do you imagine it applying to Bran/Jon in particular? Do those numbers (2nd and 4th) have some meaning in chess? Didn't you say earlier in either this thread or the Inversion Wheel of Time thread that the Belltower represented a king? If so then the shortcut between the Belltower and the Rookery and the two levels seem to mirror the castling of moving the rook to protect the King. Bran was moved/castled for protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Just now, Feather Crystal said: Didn't you say earlier in either this thread or the Inversion Wheel of Time thread that the Belltower represented a king? If so then the shortcut between the Belltower and the Rookery and the two levels seem to mirror the castling of moving the rook to protect the King. Bran was moved/castled for protection. Or perhaps Bran made a move to protect the King (to prevent checkmate) -- i.e. Bran potentially sacrifices himself to protect Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: Didn't you say earlier in either this thread or the Inversion Wheel of Time thread that the Belltower represented a king? If so then the shortcut between the Belltower and the Rookery and the two levels seem to mirror the castling of moving the rook to protect the King. Bran was moved/castled for protection. I was thinking along similar lines. In Bran's infamous falling chapter, the First Keep is immediately adjacent to the broken tower, the broken tower basically serving as an informal Rookery, since it's top level houses Bran's crows. Quote There were crows' nests atop the broken tower, where no one ever went but him, and sometimes he filled his pockets with corn before he climbed up there and the crows ate it right out of his hand. Quote That brought you up to the blind side of the First Keep, the oldest part of the castle, a squat round fortress that was taller than it looked....You could go straight up to where the gargoyles leaned out blindly over empty space, and swing from gargoyle to gargoyle, hand over hand, around to the north side. From there, if you really stretched, you could reach out and pull yourself over to the broken tower where it leaned close. Perhaps the First Keep should read First King (it's where the First King would have ruled and with the gargoyles ringing around the top, it would even resemble the crown of the First King with their iron swords protruding from the circlet), and the broken tower as the adjacent rook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 45 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: Didn't you say earlier in either this thread or the Inversion Wheel of Time thread that the Belltower represented a king? If so then the shortcut between the Belltower and the Rookery and the two levels seem to mirror the castling of moving the rook to protect the King. Bran was moved/castled for protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 55 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: How would it correlate with this idea of a shortcut between the rookery (second floor) and the belltower (fourth floor); and how do you imagine it applying to Bran/Jon in particular? Do those numbers (2nd and 4th) have some meaning in chess? I think GRRM's use of numbers is merely to show the difference in elevations between the gateway (difference of two floors). As to the notion of a shortcut (and not to derail the conversation to discuss Chess moves), the castling move is the only time that the King can move more than one position, which as mentioned in my previous post it is really a means to put the King in a more defensive position. In other words, when I've used in past games it is generally when I sense pending danger to my King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Mace Cooterian said: There are certain conditions that must exist before you can castle (both pieces have not yet moved in the game and there are open spaces between them). Yes, and the open squares also can't be under attack (for instance, by a bishop). There must be a clear path for the king and castle to move. A rough analogy might be that Bran had to have a clear route to the Wall, since his companions couldn't really defend him competently. It was lucky they had Queenscrown (note the nomenclatural chess parallel...) handy on the one occasion they ran into trouble. 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: What is the aim or advantage of this 'castling' move then? In which situations would it be employed? I agree with Mace. It's a defensive move to make it significantly harder for the opponent to place the king in check, because it's in a corner as opposed to the center of the board. I usually pair this with a fianchetto (bishop moved to second rank to guard the king). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 29, 2016 Author Share Posted December 29, 2016 15 hours ago, JNR said: It was lucky they had Queenscrown (note the nomenclatural chess parallel...) handy on the one occasion they ran into trouble. which of course physically resembles the classic form of the Queen piece. On the other hand it occurs to me as I'm writing this that the King pieces in the Isle of Lewis chess sets, seated with his sword on his knees is basically the model for the Stark kings in the crypts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_chessmen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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