Qyburn's abomination

[Sigella]

On 27 december 2016 at 3:07 PM, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Perhaps Aurane isn't a traitor, in the DWD the bastard of Driftmark proved that "not all bastards are traitors"

Perhaps his big warships aren't stolen rather taken away from the sparrows/gaining extra ships to add to the fleet. (The Royal fleet)

But I doubt it. Very seriously doubt it. 

Well, in DotD the Velaryons stands behind Rhaenyra to the bitter end. Them being fellow valyrians and all that, it does kind of set up House Velaryon as Targ loyalists, above and beyond all others.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I’d thought of the use of the Strong name before, and could never quite figure out why it was used. The person I first thought of was Larys “Clubfoot” Strong, Aegon II’s Master of Whisperers. From what we know of the Dance, he was a very influential figure whose motives and machinations we actually know very little about. I don’t have a theory as such, but my guess is we will learn more about Larys and his role in the Dance, and this will link in some way to Qyburn and Frankengregor.

[Lord Vance II]

While we're on the topic of Qyburn's monster...do we know exactly how many women he spent to create it? Or are there any theories as to how they were used?

[sweetsunray]

On 27-12-2016 at 8:52 PM, Seams said:

I think old Kingsguard guys are showing up where we have young people with claims to a throne - Ser Barristan goes to Dany, Lem Lemoncloak is with Gendry, Jon Connington is with fAegon, Arys Oakheart was with Arianne.

If you mean Lonmouth by Lem, he wasn't KG. He was Rhaegar's squire first and friend.

JonCon was hand and friend of Rhaegar, but not KG.

Arys Oakheart is a young generation knight still, late 20s or early 30s.

As for the OP and Seam's wordplay on Strong...in relation to the bear-theme most characters that I dub "bear characters" have consistently 2 references for description: Giant and Strong, even if only in metaphorical use. Bears can be violent and aggressively dangerous (the vengeful bears), but they most often appear as some protector. Most display both characteristics - usually protective, but dangerously spiteful and vengeful when abused, and as they lash out the damage they do is enormous, including bystanders and innocents. Gregor is compared to a bear at some point, or rather Jaime compares the bear in the bear pit in Harrenhal to Gregor. He thinks of the bear as Gregor with a pelt. As the Mountain and Giant he certainly embodies this dangerous, vengeful bear lashing out at anyone and everything. But now that he's KG and in particular to protect Cersei, the emphasis is more on him as a protector bear, and thus George switches to Strong. This does not naysay the connection to House Strong and the alleged father of Rhaenys' children, as that particular Strong also served in a  protective role.

[Seams]

On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 10:02 AM, sweetsunray said:

If you mean Lonmouth by Lem, he wasn't KG. He was Rhaegar's squire first and friend.

JonCon was hand and friend of Rhaegar, but not KG.

Arys Oakheart is a young generation knight still, late 20s or early 30s.

As for the OP and Seam's wordplay on Strong...in relation to the bear-theme most characters that I dub "bear characters" have consistently 2 references for description: Giant and Strong, even if only in metaphorical use. Bears can be violent and aggressively dangerous (the vengeful bears), but they most often appear as some protector. Most display both characteristics - usually protective, but dangerously spiteful and vengeful when abused, and as they lash out the damage they do is enormous, including bystanders and innocents. Gregor is compared to a bear at some point, or rather Jaime compares the bear in the bear pit in Harrenhal to Gregor. He thinks of the bear as Gregor with a pelt. As the Mountain and Giant he certainly embodies this dangerous, vengeful bear lashing out at anyone and everything. But now that he's KG and in particular to protect Cersei, the emphasis is more on him as a protector bear, and thus George switches to Strong. This does not naysay the connection to House Strong and the alleged father of Rhaenys' children, as that particular Strong also served in a  protective role.

And from @one-eyed misbehavin

Quote

Connington was hand but was not in the KG 

Yes, my bad. Apparently I was conflating these protective characters who were close to kings / princes with the King's Guard. I'll have to reexamine that aspect of the pattern I thought I was seeing.

Thanks for the clarity on the "giant and strong" association with bears. Very interesting. I think there is definitely something going on around bear / boar and bore, with "bore" as the past tense of the verb "to bear." There are (to me) unexpected uses of the word "bear" and "bore" in the text - just before the deaths of "royal" characters - Ned's conversation with Robert shortly before Lady is beheaded (seems like an allusion to Lyanna's death) and Cersei's conversation with Kevan just before Robert Strong is revealed are the two cited in this thread already. But I'm also remembering Tywin saying that Joffrey should "bear" a kingly sword shortly before he presents Widow's Wail as a groom's gift at the wedding feast. It seemed like an odd word choice for that character in that sentence, but it might make sense if it's intended as a hint to the reader about death and rebirth of a king.

I'll try to think through the "bear" and "bore" references with the possible boar / Robb wordplay. We have a skinchanger show up with his boar shortly before Jon Snow is done in by his Night's Watch brothers, so there is another example to consider.

I have also wondered whether Robert Strong and Joffrey are paired in the application of Maester Aemon's phrase, "Let the boy die so the man can be born." Three men are "born" shortly after Joffrey's death: Ser Robert Strong, Jaime (who returns to King's Landing after his difficult journey and the loss of his kingslayer arm) and Tyrion (who is condemned to death, kills his father, hidden in a wine barrel and then hatches in Essos). Maybe the phrase applies to all of them.

ETA: I had to look for this old discussion of bear / bore. I had forgotten about the association with love, in addition to death and rebirth. Sounds as if it's a symbolic pregnancy motif? Which ties into the wombs / tombs wordplay . . .

[sweetsunray]

Well the bear, the boar and the stag basically symbolize male rebirth after sacrifice through hunt in different regions.

• Western and Northern European Wild Hunt => boar: the Wild Hunt that is heavily associated with hunting boar. The Wild Huntsman (leader) is a damned soul/god who refused not to hunt (like going hunting on Sundays or a holy festival day), then ends up being gored by a boar (which he kills anyway), and as he lies dying utters his last wish: a preference to always hunt instead of going to heaven. And his wish his granted. That's our King Robert to boot, almost. The Wild Hunt is also heavily associated with the twelve days after Christmas until the January fool's day, and thus the Northern European darkest days of the year. So, it probably stems from a remainder of the sacrifice of the king in winter to make room for the summer. Some of the preferred creatures that the leader of the Wild Hunt chases are the human friendly wood nymphs.
• Greek: The boar is also a tool of retribution from hunter goddesses against those who commit sacrilege in her forest (Artemis), and in the pre-classic legends Artemis is often associated with Persephone. For example Adonis was raised alternately by Aphrodite and Persephone and both goddesses desired him (1/3 with Persephone, 2/3 with Aphrodite). Adonis loved hunting and refused not to hunt. He chased a boar and angered Artemis who inspired the boar to kill him. Aphrodite was so distraught over his death that she begged Zeus to allow her to live in the underworld to join her lover. Zeus settled the dispute in such a way that Adonis would live in the underworld from fall to springtime, and with Aphrodite from spring until the fall. So, we have elements that appear in the Wild Hunt, and a male Persephone version. And many of the elements actually hark as far back as Sumer-Mesopotania in the story of Innana, her sister and the death of Tamuz. Artemis is also a companion to Demeter in the search for the proto-Persephone Despoina.
• The stag is another animal that ties hunting to seasons, since the stag loses his antlers in winter to exchange it for a bigger and more glorious one in spring (after carnival). Without his antlers the stag is emasculated and regarded as "dead" (in hiding). The carnival festival is heavily associated with the sacrificed and revived stag, and of course we also associate that with fools in motley ringing bells, which IIRC is also donned on the shed antlers (often worn by a fool). This fool looks much like a Harlequin (a valiant, sexual prowessed fool who tries to win the love of some fair damsel), and Arlequino or Harlequin most likely derives from Herle (who is one of the named leaders of the Wild Hunt)
• Then we have the bear hunt, with the bear an animal that sleeps in winter, and winter is one long night for the bear (in folklore), a symbol of aggressive male sexuality, but also protector of the game in the forest. And we have that whole ritual of the bear hunt with a maiden chosen as a bride for the (killed) bear (but he doesn't know he's dead).
• And finally there's the sacrificial bull (the bull and the aurochs in the series) that replaces the boar, stag and bear (animals sacrificed after a hunt) in agricultural societies that do not need to rely on hunting for their dietary survival anymore.

Hence the boar, the stag, the bear and the aurochs are featured in sacrificial scenes or events in the series.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

On 12/27/2016 at 4:30 PM, LynnS said:

Yes,  that is what I meant.  LOL.  I really got that mixed up.  Gregor Glegane who is as much a hell hound as a mountain.  And Robert Strong had 16 bastards not 13.  Of course we don't know what happened to Robb Stark's head.  The intent was to send it to Joffrey at KL; but I imagine it would be covered in tar to preserve it.  So Robb Stark's head on the Mountain's shoulders is an alternate choice to Robert Baratheon

 

 

 

Don't forget also that Qyburn had access to Jaime's severed hand.  I actually really like the idea of using Robb Stark's head and it would definitely not just be for shock value.  I'm very much reminded of Melisandre quote about using bones in glamors:  "the bones remember." The bones are probably a big factor in the reanimation of wights from Bran's POV:

Quote

Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead

 

 

Robert Strong could truly be even more dangerous than Gregor if he had Robb's head (a proven great battle commander), Jaime's hand (one of the greatest swordsman living), and combined with Gregor's strength, size, and cruelty.  Undead also seem to be fixated on the last things that they were doing before they died and how long a person has been dead is a strong factor in how twisted they will be when they come back.  Gregor was still barely alive when Qyburn got him, but the last thing he was doing was acting as the crown's champion against Tyrion with Oberyn fighting on his behalf.  That makes sense for Robert Strong to continue being the champion.  As with Frankenstein, this creature is probably going to turn on its' creators and have unpredictable results.  The last thing Robb was doing was getting murdered by Boltons and Freys acting on behalf of Lannisters while listening to the Rains of Castamere.  What if Robert Strong heard that?  Gregor was no fan of loud cacophonies either and could be sent into murderous rages over them.  Before Jaime lost his hand, he made a pledge to never take up arms against Tullys or Starks to Catelyn.  I'm just completely riffing here, it's totally speculative, but it's fun to think about the implications of it.

      

[LynnS]

On 2016-12-29 at 7:14 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Robert Strong could truly be even more dangerous than Gregor if he had Robb's head (a proven great battle commander), Jaime's hand (one of the greatest swordsman living), and combined with Gregor's strength, size, and cruelty.  Undead also seem to be fixated on the last things that they were doing before they died and how long a person has been dead is a strong factor in how twisted they will be when they come back.  Gregor was still barely alive when Qyburn got him, but the last thing he was doing was acting as the crown's champion against Tyrion with Oberyn fighting on his behalf.  That makes sense for Robert Strong to continue being the champion.  As with Frankenstein, this creature is probably going to turn on its' creators and have unpredictable results.  The last thing Robb was doing was getting murdered by Boltons and Freys acting on behalf of Lannisters while listening to the Rains of Castamere.  What if Robert Strong heard that?  Gregor was no fan of loud cacophonies either and could be sent into murderous rages over them.  Before Jaime lost his hand, he made a pledge to never take up arms against Tullys or Starks to Catelyn.  I'm just completely riffing here, it's totally speculative, but it's fun to think about the implications of it.

The idea of it is just so gruesome, it makes me laugh in a horrified, creeped out sort of way.  It reminds me of the first time I saw Evil Dead and screamed and laughed hysterically at the same time.

I'm partial to the notion that Qyburn will surprise Cersei with the perversion of  Robert Baratheon's head but didn't think about Jaimie's sword arm until you mentioned it.  That's even better!   I think that would have more impact on Cersei than Rob Stark's head.

[OberynBlackfyre]

On 12/26/2016 at 2:01 PM, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

 Are there any other characters associated or rumored to raise the dead other than those 2? Just curious not trying to cripple your theory. Very nice btw as always. 

There was also a necromancer King within the Riverlands or Wester lands.  I believe the family name was "Bane".  It's in the History book

[OberynBlackfyre]

On 12/29/2016 at 4:14 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Don't forget also that Qyburn had access to Jaime's severed hand.  I actually really like the idea of using Robb Stark's head and it would definitely not just be for shock value.  I'm very much reminded of Melisandre quote about using bones in glamors:  "the bones remember." The bones are probably a big factor in the reanimation of wights from Bran's POV:

Robert Strong could truly be even more dangerous than Gregor if he had Robb's head (a proven great battle commander), Jaime's hand (one of the greatest swordsman living), and combined with Gregor's strength, size, and cruelty.  Undead also seem to be fixated on the last things that they were doing before they died and how long a person has been dead is a strong factor in how twisted they will be when they come back.  Gregor was still barely alive when Qyburn got him, but the last thing he was doing was acting as the crown's champion against Tyrion with Oberyn fighting on his behalf.  That makes sense for Robert Strong to continue being the champion.  As with Frankenstein, this creature is probably going to turn on its' creators and have unpredictable results.  The last thing Robb was doing was getting murdered by Boltons and Freys acting on behalf of Lannisters while listening to the Rains of Castamere.  What if Robert Strong heard that?  Gregor was no fan of loud cacophonies either and could be sent into murderous rages over them.  Before Jaime lost his hand, he made a pledge to never take up arms against Tullys or Starks to Catelyn.  I'm just completely riffing here, it's totally speculative, but it's fun to think about the implications of it.

      

I like this but remember a sword hand doesn't connotate the same skill at arms.  it was still Jaimes training WITH that hand that made him good, not just the hand.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@LynnS  I love the Evil Dead series.   I would think a king's burial would be pretty public though.  Someone might notice if Bobbie B's head was missing unless I'm missing something.  I'm guessing Walder Frey might have had Robb's head tarred or pickled and sent back to KL.  Joffrey did say he wanted it to his small council.  I just don't think Qyburn is the type of guy to let a perfectly good severed body part go to waste, you know?   Well, at least we know it isn't Oberyn Martell's head!

@OberynBlackfyre  Maybe that sounded a bit too literal the way I put it.  Just from what we know of wight re-animation and using bones in glamors, there might be a certain amount of "memory" retained in them.  It probably wouldn't make Robert Strong as skilled as Jaime with his sword hand, but I bet there's some "memory" of Jaime's ability in it.  After all, Jaime in battle would be so good and well-trained there's a lot of moves he had that were probably second nature that he didn't have to consciously think about all the time.  How many times does Jaime associate his whole self with that sword hand?  For a long time, he struggles with figuring out who he is without it.  There's a lot of Jaime's emotional struggles imprinted on that hand, especially with being a kingslayer.  I think of a whole undead being like Beric or LSH, and while they aren't anywhere near their former selves, they retain a certain amount of instinctive memory or memories related to what they were doing before they died and is probably imprinted on the bones.  It doesn't seem like the wights are micromanaged by the Others once they are re-animated.  They can move about and attack independently and that's probably due to a sort of low-level memory of basic functions.  The severed arm Summer digs up is still moving around even with all the flesh gone.  Only until Summer cracks it open to destroy the marrow inside, the "memory" of it's functioning gets destroyed, and then it's fully dead.  Robert Strong is probably made of multiple body parts which would fit the pretty obvious Frankenstein monster theme going on.  I think this may be a double-edged sword with this creation if the body parts "remember" certain things if triggered to give very unpredictable results.